confused...are N's aware of their tactics or are they on auto pilot from childhood...

66 posts / 0 new

#1 Dec 22 - 11AM

Anonymous (not verified)

confused...are N's aware of their tactics or are they on auto pilot from childhood...

My cerebral N is not a player at all. I had players in the past. He breaks up every 2-3 wks., but he doesn't date at all when we are broken up. He looks grieved and haggard when we break up as I have witnessed this. He says he is heartbroken and how he wouldn't change a thing about me. Then, he will say, that we just have too many bumps to be compatible. The bumps he always creates of course. We know that N's are afraid of attaching to a partner also. My question is...Is the false self...Do N's know they have a false self and that they are different than then norm? Since this is a defensive mechanism that started in childhood, I wonder about this..Or is this behavior and all the tactics he uses just a knee jerk reaction and way of living set on auto pilot and they really don't know how weird their behavior is...I have done so much reading but this makes me wonder...Also, when you are around an N, sometimes you feel connected and like you are with a normal guy. Then, there are times where you feel like he is a bit disconnected and more aloof even when there is no reason for this change in their behavior in our eyes..It makes me feel uncertain and a bit awkward at times...Please help me with these questions...

#2 Dec 22 - 11PM

walking_on_sunshine

BPD

I agree with Goldie, there is so much overlap with these disorders its really hard to really know the exact correct diagnosis. What you are describing sounds like " I hate you don't leave me" syndrome consistant with BPD.

#3 Dec 22 - 8PM

Goldie

What makes you think this guy is a narc?

The first step is understanding it. Have you read Lisa's book? Do you think he fits as a narcissist? Acceptance and knowledge to the fact that you are barking up the wrong tree and as pathetic as his childhood may have been; he has nothing to offer you in terms of a longtime committed relationship. He has already shown and proven this to you on oh so many levels. You will still have to go through the healing process that we all go through. Coming to terms with the fact that you are in love with a man who cannot give to you what you require. You may want to research this more so that you can clear up your head and begin to see what you are dealing with. God bless, Goldie

#4 Dec 22 - 9PM (Reply to #51)

Redhead

Goldie

It's interesting......and I'm glad you bring this up. My counselor diagnosed mine with Narcissistic Personality Disorder. However, I also see some borderline characteristics such as "will you always hate me?" or "Can we still be friends?" My STBEX Sister-in-Law has been diagnosed as a borderline. At the time she was diagnosed, I told hubby that I had already figured that out & read the diagnostic criteria from the DSMIV. His reply - "OMG - that sounds like me!!" Yeah, the difference is he hasn't wound up in ER for suicide attempts.

#5 Dec 22 - 10PM (Reply to #54)

Goldie

This is why it is so difficult for people without training

To properly diagnois. We hear it on here all the time. Oh mine is this or that or not this or that because he does not do this. It is not that simple. First of all you do NOT have to exhibit every single trait to be diagnoised with a certain disorder. Also you can have components or features of a certain disorder and you can have a presenting disorder with s features of a secondary disorder. This is NOT an exact science; never has been never will be. For example someone could be a classic narc demonstrating borderline components and sociopath features. Most PD's have narcissistic traits. This is the nature of a PD. Self absorbtion, drama, depression, ect.. is quite apparent in most PD's. Do they just have these features and no others? That would be a classic Narc. Do they demonstrate all of this and cruely to animals, and need to seek revenge, ect... Depending on the extent of the features they would be either a narcissist with sociopathic tendencies or components or a Sociopathic narcissist. A narcissist with several presenting borderline components. A histrionic narc. An antisocial with severe borderline personality disorder. No current presenting signs of self mutilation or suicidal idealization. ect... This is why most people with no training have no clue. Symptoms can also fluctuate with different stages in life and with different relationships. Someone may feel suicidal around their mother yet do not feel this otherwise. Severe PTSD around Mom. They may meet up with another PD who brings out in them tendencies which have laid dorment over the years and were triggered by a similar situation, PTSD. The notion that because an individual is not presenting with every single symptom on the list at the time of diagnosis does not mean that they do not have a strong disposition toward that PD. This is why it takes years of training and experience to properly diagnois a PD and the therapist has to be good at what they do. Like with any profession you have your good diagnostians and your not so good one's. Many narcs and psychopaths have been misdiagnoised because the clinician was inexperienced or not particularly good at their job, plus they are good at hiding their disorders on the short term. Had the clinicial had more time to see and experience the true nature of the client they would have spotted the con. I could go on and on regarding this subject. I'm sure that you get the drift. This is not an easy diagnosis to make and it takes a complete background and battery of testing, even then some have fooled the therapist and slipped through the cracks. Add to the mix, that they brainwash you with manipulation and lie's and in new recovery your thinking may not be clear enough to see the forest through the tree's. If you are a complete mess and you feel like you have been played, destroyed, and have lost all sense of self, you most likely have just experienced a psychopath, yet some may feel this over a narc as well. A good therapist knows how to ask the right questions and make accurate observations, and has experience to get to the bottom of what is going on. Also sometimes the partner of a narc has a PD of their own and this makes it even more difficult to get to the truth and make sense of the situation. You would have to know what the parties where like before the relationship began to also get proper perspective. That's enough for now, not trying to write a book here, lol, just clarifing the whole diagnosis piece a bit. God bless, Goldie

#6 Dec 22 - 11PM (Reply to #62)

Sea

Wow Goldie, what u wrote is

Wow Goldie, what u wrote is enlightening. I think i am some kind of PD as well. In all honesty not at all an innocent victim. Mr N is clinically diagnosed with NPD. I believed he is. He sort of bring out the dormant PD traits in me as well. I think i am surely a co dependent, abit of a BPD since i crazily stick around with him. God knows what. I know i shouldnt self diagnose but i now know i have alot of issues to work on myself. Thanks Goldie

#7 Dec 23 - 5AM (Reply to #63)

Goldie

Sea

You are in a grieving stage now and part of recovery is to eventually look at the part you played in the relationship. It is common to play out the tapes in your head and question everything. This is how we grow, heal, and recover from the PD. It takes two to keep a dysfunctional relationship alive. Often for a woman there are other contributing factors. You have children together, work together, financial entanglements, are married, share property, ect.. Sometimes these things make it more of a struggle to disengage, yet many have, in spite of the obstacles. Are you seeing a therapist and have they suggested to you that you have a PD? Codependency is not necessarily a PD and you would want to discuss this with your therapist before you make a snap judgement over a few comments. Don't forget, they do brainwash us and often bring out the worst in us with their lie's, cheating, and manipulative behavior. I know for me, by the end, I was a raving lunitic. Desparately crying, yelling, and questioning him, trying to get to the bottom of all of the lie's, unaccounted for periods of time, and general bad vibes I had around him, and constant supspicion that he was up to no good. All of these emotions were based on fact. He was up to no good. Eventually when I grew weary of my frequent states of anger and sadness, I decided that it was just not worth questioning anymore, that I did not like who I was becoming while with him and I began to take the necessary steps to get out. Just because someone drives you to the brink, gaslighting and all the rest of it, does not mean you have a PD. You may have just been reacting to having had been played for so long. That is bound to drive us crazy, temporarily, even with the best of us. Be gentle with yourself Sumiko you are still in healing mode. God bless, Goldie

#8 Dec 23 - 9AM (Reply to #64)

Sea

Dear Goldie, i dont have a

Dear Goldie, i dont have a therapist. No one ever told me i have PD. Just felt that i am not a tad better than the exN in crazy making. Like 2 lunatics locked in a tango. Takes 2 to clap. Sometimes i am not even sure who is worse? Me or him? He is a narc, yes, but more a garden variety not a psychopath or a sociopath. He doesnt stalk, harass, threaten etc. No physical danger. I played alot of mind games to make him love me like he used to. Whatever, i just have to give it more time i think?

#9 Dec 22 - 11PM (Reply to #61)

virginia (not verified)

My first thought about 8 months ago was that he was a BPD..

I initially felt that my CN could be a BPD because I did see that push away come closer fiasco so often. My CN shows signs of both. Mainly the info. from Sam Vankin's on-line videos, reveals that narcissists have that pattern of devalue, ditch, then value you again..what a mess. Takes too much energy to figure it out. I will just look for someone who is on my level, and one who is desiring similar things out of life...Peace and quiet without so much drama is my goal for 2012...

#10 Dec 22 - 10PM (Reply to #56)

Redhead

Yes...

and even though I have a master's degree is social work with clinical experience, it's still difficult to diagnose...very complex. Plus when you factor in the emotional component...well, there you go. It's interesting that some of them present characteristics of more than one disorder. Maybe, some have a comorbidity of two disorders. Just very interesting & baffling at the same time. I do agree that it is best to utilize a clinician who specializes in personality disorders.

#11 Dec 22 - 11PM (Reply to #57)

Redhead

It's also interesting....

he used to tell me not to psychoanalyze him. He was always afraid my cohorts in the profession were going to figure him out. Interestingly he was so manipulative, they didn't. Unfortunately, I too pretended that things were fine until I couldn't hide it any longer....when he D&D me. So you see, even the well trained professionals such as me can be victims.

#12 Dec 22 - 11PM (Reply to #58)

uk lady

Perhaps more sad than interesting

My sister was a PCN for the majority of her life. Degrees, qualifications as long as her arm in all fields of the science. But, the only way she could cope with her emotional issues were through self medication, if you know what I mean. On occasion it turned her into an uncontrollable monster. When it finally got to crux time and an absolute unbearable level, I remember saying to her husband that she so needed help big time. His response was that, that wasn't an option because it would be on her record and so impact her job and obviously their future earnings capacity. I was astonished that she (and he) put her job above her emotional well being and hence do nothing about it. My sister has since passed ultimately through breast cancer and she never got out of the fog. It breaks my heart to know that she was fighting FOO issues within her relationship with her partner all her life without proper closure. Because of all this, I was so adamant that I wouldn't let it continue for me and so I knew I had to finally walk away from the x because of everything he had brought into my life too. Dee x

#13 Dec 22 - 11PM (Reply to #59)

Done sourcing

Your sister would be

Your sister would be proud! ds

#14 Dec 23 - 12PM (Reply to #60)

uk lady

Thanks DS

She was so intelligent and perceptive but never once used her professional background to help herself. So very sad. She recognised the x was what he was years ago and once told me that when I was with him "my sparkle" faded to nothing. As we all now know, they rob you of your very essence. Dee x

#15 Dec 22 - 10PM (Reply to #55)

uk lady

Absolutely agree, we are not

Absolutely agree, we are not professionals. Diagnosing the x has never been necessary or a crusade for me. It has always only ever been about that he has a disorder which caused me untold pain and I felt abused. He does however, display various traits and characteristics from all areas of P/N/NPD/BPD. I don't care which nowadays. All I know is that I am so thankful to be out of the whole sorry mess that was once my life with him and his FOO. Thanks, as ever, Goldie. Dee x

#16 Dec 22 - 9PM (Reply to #52)

uk lady

OMG Redhead

The x asked me exactly the same questions. Why, oh why, would they ever think that we would want to be friends with them? As to hating them, well that may diminish but not, instantly and any time too soon. They just don't get it, do they? But then again, that's why we are not with them any longer. Dee x

#17 Dec 22 - 11PM (Reply to #53)

Redhead

UK Lady

Yeah, when mine asked me that I was just baffled. Seriously, after a marriage which you just walked away from, you think we can be friends? Seriously?

#18 Dec 22 - 9PM (Reply to #50)

Redhead

Goldie

#19 Dec 22 - 9PM (Reply to #41)

virginia (not verified)

I have done a lot of research from different sources...

I have listened to Sam Vankin a CN himself he says. I have been listening for hrs. today and a few months ago to a few of his videos. I have read in the DSM medical book the personality disorders and the signs..I actually helped 2 of my counselors learn more about narcissism. They admitted that I know a lot. Many people don't even know that there are 2 types of narcissism, and I actually believe that there are 5 according to one resource. I know that with BPD even if they are an N, they are prone to being very empty and clingy in a way that my N was not. I knew a girl that had BPD. She would call me 5 times a day. She was very dependent, clingy and needy. She would tell me multiple times a day how empty she felt and how she would like to take her life. I am familiar with BPD to some degree. I no longer wanted contact with that gal. The BPD's also tend to think about or attempt suicide and they harm or cut themselves. I read up on that being the deciding difference between just an N, BPDN, etc. I read 6 books in the last month about narcs, abuse in general, and I googled lots of resources...No matter how much we learn etc., There are still things that we question a bit in order to gain some sense of closure. That helps me become more determined to be strong as my final break up was just over a week ago...I do learn a lot from other people too. Hopefully, they learn from me. I don't think I will be on here too much longer, but I just joined. I am getting closer to closure and moving on, but I am not quite there tonight yet...My guy was a classic CN with every sign and tactic. They worship intelligence and he was not interested in more than one woman at a time. He loved sex with me, but often with held it for power. He was more asexual as Sam V. testifies to also. I had 27 months with my CN and my counselors said that they felt the diagnosis I came up with myself was very accurate according to the many circumstances I discussed with them about my relationship. I have not one doubt that my guy is a CN. When I told him that he was a CN he didn't admit or deny it....

#20 Dec 23 - 9AM (Reply to #49)

Redhead

Virginia

I agree - I also need to understand as much as possible what happened here so that I too can put closure on this. Plus the more we learn & understand, we can hopefully prevent this from happening again. Mine too was a cerebral narcissist. He did have borderline tendencies although self harm was not one of them. I wish you success with your healing.

#21 Dec 22 - 9PM (Reply to #42)

uk lady

Hi Virginia

I feel that what you may be experiencing is information overload and analysing it all too much. It happened to me and tbh it got to the stage where I just thought "enough, is enough", I was sending myself crazier. Who cares what, or who, he is. What is important, is that you are now aware that this man will never ever be what you want or need in your life. Just go easy on yourself and better to concentrate all your focus and attention back onto you because you are so much more deserving of the effort. There is never any real closure with these types. Take care. Dee x

#22 Dec 22 - 10PM (Reply to #47)

Gravity

When you stare into the abyss the abyss stares back at you.

When you stare into the abyss the abyss stares back at you. Friedrich Nietzsche Isn't it so true? I read read read and READ for about 8 months before I began to move on with my life. I think it is a vital part of the process.. but for a while I was driving myself insane. No matter what my ex-psycho was.. which his exgf and I have decided is probably borderline as he used to cut..he's a psychopath/narcissist as well. The bottom line is no matter what he was he was a wackjob and not worth a second more of my time!

#23 Dec 22 - 10PM (Reply to #48)

uk lady

You've got it Gravity. When

You've got it Gravity. When there is nothing inside, there is nothing to give, or receive. Took me years to accept that BUT I've finally got there too. Dee x

#24 Dec 22 - 9PM (Reply to #43)

virginia (not verified)

Very well said...

Very well said. Thank you.

#25 Dec 22 - 9PM (Reply to #44)

uk lady

You're very welcome

But just know that the realisation and final acceptance didn't arrive magically - it has taken me 20 months so far to get to where I am now. God speed your journey and again, I can't stress enough how much better it will be to bring the focus back onto you. Therapy is expensive so don't waste any more money on talking about the x during your sessions. Better spent exploring why you let him in, in the first place. Dee x

#26 Dec 22 - 9PM (Reply to #45)

virginia (not verified)

Very true and I agree...

I am paying the counselor on a sliding scale so that has helped. I told my counselor the other day, that I am ready to concentrate on myself for the next session. I actually told her that I faced the reasons why I was with him and it all made sense to her. I had lost my business after 28 yrs. I lost my home, and I lost my mother to cancer, and I filed for divorce after 28 yrs. of marriage. I went through all of that in a 2 yr. time span...too much loss and I lacked a support system. I am resilient enough to keep going..The counselors that I have had, can't believe how strong I have been, but of course it is a process... I am close to turning the corner.

#27 Dec 22 - 9PM (Reply to #46)

uk lady

My story is much like your's

My story is much like your's Virginia. Now is the time for you to dispense with the strong act and start taking care of yourself emotionally. All of what you have been through needs healing, loving care and support. And, as I am sure you are aware, that that usually all begins from within. I have had to face the fact that "strong" just doesn't cut it really but that was all I had ever been taught. We have to show to ourselves that we can be vulnerable and accept that fact and that by doing that we will treat ourselves with more love and respect of our own emotional needs. I don't know if any of this makes sense to you. All I know is that this is what I had to do and I am now reaping the benefits of finally owning up to what I had buried deep inside years ago. God bless. Dee x

#28 Dec 22 - 8PM

uk lady

Auto pilot from childhood all the way with my x

N father and mother - only ever think of themselves. Divorced when he was about 10. He rebelled and became anorexic - told me once that he would only eat one chocolate bar a day but pretend otherwise. Has psychiatric treatment. Constant dealings back and forth with mother and father - living with each alternately - no stable environment and no parental responsibility. He absolutely hates his father to this day and his mother can do no wrong. And, believe me, she does everything wrong a normal, nurturing mother should do. They are so enmeshed that I classify their relationship as emotional incest. His father is a psycho and played women like a fiddle when he was younger - now a scuddy recluse. So, in conclusion. He has been on autopilot since a young child so no wonder he has turned out how he is. He always targets strong, independent, professional women who can take care of themselves - absolute polar opposite to his mother. Although, is it just because we aren't scheming, needy, manipulative bitches? But in the end that isn't enough for him because he only knows how to relate to second type - his mother personified. Dee x

#29 Dec 22 - 8PM

ruby01 (not verified)

virginia

The way I understand it, A psychopath is calculating and intentionally targets people. A narcissist is so completely into himself that although he may not intentionally intend to harm someone, it's inevitable because they are clueless to the fact that they are completely selfish and believe they are better than ANYONE else on this planet and NEVER are the cause any problem in a relationship. They are "special" all right.

#30 Dec 22 - 8PM (Reply to #38)

virginia (not verified)

No wonder we spent my birthday shopping for his computer...

No wonder my eN took me to a computer store to buy himself a computer, and he didn't take me out for my birthday. I was so offended by that, and I let him know it too.

#31 Dec 22 - 8PM (Reply to #37)

virginia (not verified)

So, it isn't purposeful selfishness...

So, it isn't purposeful selfishness. Selfish thinking is all they know. It is all they are capable of thinking about...That confirms then, that there is no hope because a person who is self aware could be sorry and improve that selfish trait...makes more sense now...Thank you.

1
2
3
next
last

Path Forward Buy Now Reviews
All About Her Buy Now Reviews
All About Him Buy Now Reviews