confused...are N's aware of their tactics or are they on auto pilot from childhood...

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Dec 22 - 8PM (Reply to #33)
Susan32
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Another definition

One of the posters summed it up excellently (it might've been Goldie herself)- Narcissists only love themselves. Psychopaths don't even love themselves.
Dec 22 - 8PM (Reply to #34)
virginia (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Good point...

Thank you...
Dec 22 - 8PM (Reply to #35)
Susan32
Susan32's picture

You're welcome!

Narcs tend to result from bad upbringing... whereas psychopaths/sociopaths may be more neurological in nature. They have overlapping traits (lack of empathy) All psychopaths are Narcs... but not all Narcs are Psychs.
Dec 23 - 4PM (Reply to #36)
virginia (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Good Info.

Good Info. I had a con man in my life over 30 yrs. ago. I didn't know it back then, that he was a psychopath. I only knew he conned people. About a yr. ago upon much investigation into my N relationship, I realized that my ex was a PD. He forged my name on car loans, government refund checks, had aliases...scary! I think being single looks mighty fine at this point...
Dec 22 - 8PM (Reply to #32)
Redhead1
Redhead1's picture

I agree with you Ruby. There

I agree with you Ruby. There is no self awareness with them.
Dec 22 - 2PM
Femmegem
Femmegem's picture

Hard to tell if theyre aware.

I know what you mean Virginia. I know he is disordered and hates closeness and intimacy but I still dont understand if its all calculated from day 1, or if he really believed he could be capable of commitment but simply expects too much submission from his women. My loser used to say "I wont make promises I cant keep" and "I know how to manipulate girls into falling in love with me" and interestingly when we watched Dorian Gray he spoke ill of the woman who loved him and said "some women are stupid, why does she love him? Just because he's quite good looking, he hasn't done anything nice for her??. If only I knew.
Dec 22 - 6PM (Reply to #25)
virginia (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

When I would ask him where our relationship was going....

When I would ask my N where our relationship was going from his point of view, he would say, "A part of me loves you, and a part of me knows we are different. I don't know if we can live together." Funny thing is, he always uped the bar, so that our relationship would never come to a living together situation. He never felt like I was compliant enough, and yet he said I was an Angel and how wonderful I was. He even told me that he wouldn't change a thing about me, even during our breakups. He said he was crazy about me, but I guess I didn't allow myself to be molded into his image 100 percent...
Dec 22 - 6PM (Reply to #26)
A Narc Encounter
A Narc Encounter's picture

Asking a Narc for Assurance

To even ask him that gives him power and authority. I knew not to even ask my Narc where he thought anything was going. They begin to feel imposed upon. The kicker is! I NEVER said I loved him or got cozy. So, when he started "gas lighting," he was treating me with the standard tantrum he gave many others before me. "Oh, you want sex and that leads to love--I DONT love anybody!" [He was not lying--they cannot love themselves--how they gonna love you?] But I was not asking any of this and pointed that out. He scratched his head and I left. Then he "acted" as if he did not sleep all night, played the 10CC old song "I am not in Love" (about a guy who is in love but denying it) and trying to pull on my heart strings. You just can't buy any of it. And then the dramatic "I am ready to have you move in with me..." Oh what a set up that would be if it really happened. When you are "on notice" that they are disturbed, you are "on notice." I felt like it was asking a total retard to define my future if I asked him a question that posed "our future." I was right. Sure it hurts like hell to be alone and miss the magical man who was far too good to be true.
Dec 22 - 6PM (Reply to #30)
virginia (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Now I know more, than I did even 6 wks. ago...

I would have been a trapped room mate and would have moved out in a week anyway...I can see that.
Dec 22 - 6PM (Reply to #27)
A Narc Encounter
A Narc Encounter's picture

Plus Virgina

According to you he is not very sexual-if you want a sexless future with no real love, and constant ups and downs-continue on. He prevents you from possibly being with or even meeting the right guy. EVEN if you created a quiet peaceful life they would feel more empty and CREATE drama. They MUST have it. They do not know how to be at peace because they never were. And they do not really like to change, although they may say they do. As someone else said-it is THEIR show and you are in as long as you go along with the script. You want anything different, you are out of the play. Try getting sick! See how much he is around. Try telling a joke and hope he laughs. He will never nurture you if you get sick. He will never think you are so cute he wants to watch you when you are sleeping. He will never want you to be happy unless he is directly responsible for it.
Dec 22 - 7PM (Reply to #29)
virginia (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

One would have to die to themselves...

I guess I should just plan my own funneral now, if I was to continue in this relationship. I would be expected to die emotionally, and I am too sharp for that! Thanks for your answer.
Dec 22 - 6PM (Reply to #28)
virginia (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Totally true...

It is like putting our positive traits and personality into a huge trash can with a hole in the bottom. Everything positive is wasted and gone...That is life with an N..so hard to face, even for a realist
Dec 22 - 12PM
A Narc Encounter
A Narc Encounter's picture

Does a Narc Know?

It would help you to read other stories to get a better grip. My reading "Its All About Him," as just one media-- help me do a few things. My N became totally weird every time he got too close. Consider it a compliment if you want, I suspect yours felt he was getting too close which is a threat and stems from love he tried to give as a child that was rejected. Somehow his emotional growth (ability to love normally) became arrested way back then. So as an adult, he offers excuses that it can never work to distance the entire issue. Just a way for you to pity him. They LOVE attention. They must have it. And they live minute to minute treading water so to speak. They do not have time to care about your feelings. They truly hold a 24/7 job making sure they are lined up with "supply." In the start of the relationship they truly believe you are the answer to fill their endless void. They do put on a false self because they are aware they compete with other guys for your attention. So they act a step better, a lot more memorable, intense and it works. More so, the harder you seem to push for anything-such as sex with a cerebral. I am glad I don't have to date at least 3 people are year to get my fix. Be glad you don't either. Watch Sam Vaknin on YouTube and you will stay mesmerized for hours this holiday.
Dec 22 - 1PM (Reply to #13)
virginia (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Great answers..this is my thought now...

You touched on 2 items that especially helped me just now. First, I realized for the last yr., that the N did not receive unconditional love as a child. But, the way you explained it, really came into narrower focus for me..The N tried to give love and was rejected as a child, thus that is why they dump the partner before the partner dumps them. I use to tell my N..You create bumps and distance, in order to avoid commitment because you are afraid that I will reject you. So, you dump me first. He admitted to that part. But, your reply to my question makes me realize that HE may have APPROACHED his mother for love and was actually rejected..horrible feeling for a child, rather than just feeling unloved by a mother like I was thinking before..Second fact is... that you mention that when a partner starts to love the N, he thought I was a fool because he feels flawed and unworthy deep inside. So, for me to love someone who is unworthy, makes me look weak and that would be "less than" what a perfect N deserves. So, he needs to find someone for supply, but he doesn't want her to love him. With an N, great is never good enough. You can never instill enough attention onto them. But watch out, you better never say the LOVE word or else you become a weak partner in his eyes, and/or he prepares for your possible rejection of him like his mommy did. He has to avoid that rejection and ditch the partner quick!!..No one is good enough for the N in the end. A no win situation...Thanks for your reply and narrowing my focus more.
Dec 22 - 8PM (Reply to #23)
onwithmylife
onwithmylife's picture

virigina

I said to the narc years 'you keep dumping me because you are afraid of my abandoning YOU first, is that right, he smiled knowingly, like I had found him out. i am sur e his mother never gave him unconditional love even though she smothered and doted on him, according to his relative. He was never loved for the little boy he was , he did not feel good enough in her eyes. she may have been narck like as well.your conversation with him is strangely like mine was many years ago...........
Dec 22 - 1PM (Reply to #14)
A Narc Encounter
A Narc Encounter's picture

You Were Never Dumped - Their Mother Was

They are getting back at their mother. The connection is that you are a female. He saw qualities in that he wanted to emulate, to be an extension of him. Possible traits his mom had. But your a female, that is all needed to make the connection. And it is an iron door. A Narcissist, in my opinion is usually one because of his mother. Something she did or did not do. Meaning too much praise or zero praise. And he hates the fact he needs them for attention also known as "supply." I understand this may NOT fit into the image of the man sitting in your living room or smiling and flirting with you. Everything about them is exaggerated. Who they pretend to be at first and who they are at the end. And their goal is to build you up like a sand castle and then step all over you. We love and direly miss the exaggerated man, the fake one because no real man has ever been that good. That is the point, no REAL man will ever be that good.
Dec 22 - 1PM (Reply to #22)
neonlove
neonlove's picture

You are exactly right.I

You are exactly right. I honestly believe Narcissists become these megalomaniac monsters because of their upbringing/parents, especially their mother. I for one know my Ex has some deep-seated resentment (or anguish) against his mother. Probably due to the divorce his parents got when he was 5, the prime age and where is emotional maturity still stands to this day. That and praise, 24/7 praise from his parents/stepmother and really everyone that surrounds him act as cheerleaders. He can do no wrong, in their eyes and ultimately his eyes. The N hates women because he needs them so much or vice versa....? xx (former account a65703)
Dec 22 - 1PM (Reply to #15)
virginia (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Please give me one more bit of understanding...

After 2 yrs. of break ups and makeups, just one month ago, my N made serious plans for me to move in with him. He had me added to his PO Box mailing address at the post office, he wanted me to break my lease on my apartment, he told my son and his daughters that he loved me a lot and that I make him very happy. He told them he wanted me to move in this Jan. We had a magical 2.5 weeks of great connection and very positive feelings together. The best 2.5 wks. we ever had since we met. Then, after he had surgery and I was to pick him up at the hospital, he called in a rage because I was 1 hr. late in picking him up...other details are too long to type here...anyway, the move in idea went to pot and the wheels started falling off our relationship. He couldn't get over me being late as I was never late anywhere with him before...Why do N's create this wonderful moment of time with a partner and then it all unwinds. If they are afraid of attachment and abandonment too, then why did he make strong moves during those 2.5 wks. of greatness to turn around and sabotauge it? He didn't need to take any action to have me move in?? So, why why why did he bother doing that?
Dec 27 - 9AM (Reply to #20)
sunny 523
sunny 523's picture

My N would do the same type

My N would do the same type of thing.... Start fights out of the blue over stupid things just when things were going well. It's "narc 101" to sabotage things just when they seem to be going well. It's sad to say this, but it's pointless to keep asking why. It's just what they do! My narc and I have been broken up for a year now, and the fog has lifted. I know I am better off without him. No more drama. No more pain. I miss the fake him, but that was all an illusion. The real him SUCKED!
Dec 27 - 12PM (Reply to #21)
virginia (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Thank You Sunny...It is hard for a rational person to not ...

Hi Sunny, It is hard for a rational, honest, caring person to find themselves up against the wall with the N in not having closure. To have closure, the normal partner seeks for truth and answers to help them move on and to help them avoid another N in the future...I am sure you relate. But, I seem to be close to finding closure, with all the research I have been doing. I have to make sense of this crazy behavior and find some kind of closure, even if I have to do it, as my exN will never give it to me. It takes a lot of effort, but at least I am not crying at all or depressed. I cried enough in previous breakups with my N but not this time around. I am getting stronger as I am putting the puzzle pieces together. I have only one piece left before I complete it. The truths I am discovering are keeping me strong. I do realize, that one has to put a limit on searching for closure so they don't get stuck obsessing over things. I discovered more just last night on Sam Vaknin's writings. I have been listening to him for the last 6 months. He does state that N's will make sure and bring about the very thing they fear the most, abandonment. If the N feels uncertain about their partner, as to if she is getting upset with the N enough to possibly leave him, he feels scared of being abandoned by her. So, he will abandon her first to protect himself from her possible rejection of him. He may create the conflict to give him a reason to reject her. N's will also do this to keep himself and/or their partner from becoming too close emotionally. When the N creates drama, it accomplishes 2 things. He rejects his partner before she can reject him. That gives him the control and he avoids the injury of being rejected by his partner. Number 2: He can keep his partnership going, but he can interject drama to keep the distance in the relationship to the degree that keeps him comfortable. He wants his cake and eat it too! The N longs for closeness, but fears it. By the N rejecting his partner first, the N can reason it as "I abandoned her, she didn't reject or abandon me. I am in control here." The N just avoided a possible injury by his partner by creating it himself. Sam V. states...N's can't tolerate delayed impending doom. They must have it all now, "get it over with now" be it good or bad. So, that explains why my CN would look and act nervous when we had disagreements. He would say, "You need to go back home to your place. I need space." His silent treatment lasted for weeks. Sam V. says it is the EIPM "emotional involvement prevention mechanisms" tactic. Sam V. says that N's will facilitate the abandonment to calm their fears of being abandoned by his partner. What a mess for the partner. I felt that is what he was doing for the last yr. When I would tell my N that he was afraid of intimacy, and that is why he created breakups so often. My N would always reply..No, I am not afraid of committment. I am tired of living alone, I want a partner to live with me. I am done being single. Well, time did prove to me and so did Sam, that my opinion was correct. Of course, I don't desire to live with him anymore after all of the knowledge I have now. I am just explaining the above for newbies in order to help them, not something you may need to read here...Thanks for your reply Sunny...
Dec 22 - 6PM (Reply to #18)
A Narc Encounter
A Narc Encounter's picture

You Being Late to Pick Him Up

Was basically a narc injury and you should read up on just how easy it is to give a Narc an injury. If you plan to live with him, buy a bunch of egg shells to walk on because you will need them. And lots of drugs to pretend you are not actually living with him. I am sure the 2.5 weeks was incredible, but read up on the whole thing. Specifically Narcs. Mess with Borderlines later and master the N first. Plus, I think he is the type to back out anyway and make it appear you did it. Nothing can be at peace with these guys.
Dec 22 - 7PM (Reply to #19)
virginia (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Yes...He would

Yes, he would start the fight, out of no where, and blame me so we would break-up. That makes the perfect reason for him to explain away why we are not under the same roof. Not that I would enjoy that. It would always be something to deal with...crazy making crap.
Dec 22 - 1PM (Reply to #16)
Hunter
Hunter's picture

They expect

They expect perfection..because you were an hour late you now failed the perfection test.. I can pin point exactly when I disappointed and failed the perfection test.. He wanted me to look at his stupid Dog Training Web site.. He was building it at the time.. Talk about "Red Flags" the whole freak'n site are photos of him and his Stupid "Rare " breed dog!! There is so much information about "him" it's gross.. Per his request I critiqued it.. Oh boy.. That set him in a tizzy...after that it was all down hill.. "Hey Dog Whisperer.. Your web site sucks.. Yep, it really Does"" so I ask" what the F#%k was I thinking"?
Dec 22 - 2PM (Reply to #17)
virginia (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Yep, just another example...

Yep, just another example to me that the N does sabotauge himself and his NS people from having happiness and peace...What a miserable existance!
Dec 22 - 12PM
Hunter
Hunter's picture

Virgina, I think that is a

Virgina, I think that is a valid question of which there is not a solid black and white answer.. I think the are so miss wired its too hard to figure out.. I think they live moment to moment, and fade in and out of reality.. Most have addiction issues.. It's a way to numb the constant pain they are in.. It's best to figure out why you fell prey.. To this predator ... Dig deep Virginia to a Path forward... Hunter
Dec 22 - 12PM (Reply to #2)
virginia (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

I have just figured out why I fell prey in the last week, but...

Hunter, I did figure out why I fell prey to the CN just in the last week. I spoke with my counselor yesterday a bit about this too. But, It helps to have understanding with a bit more closure if possible while I move forward. I guess it bothers me, to think that someone could be like an N on purpose; there were good moments and then suddenly he creates bumps and has a mood or rage. Is he just pathetic and not understanding what and why he acts that way most of the time? Or, does he set out to act like this every other day?...Just puzzles me. I am still thinking my way through, as to how I plan on being different with more boundaries the next time around...Thanks for your reply...
Dec 22 - 12PM (Reply to #11)
A Narc Encounter
A Narc Encounter's picture

Are they Ns on Purpose?

Really glad to hear you have a counselor! I think you meant do N's know they hurt us on purpose. They are "N's" as Hunter said because they are missing something and it came about long before they met us. Like an egg yolk that has something odd in it. When you figure out the deliberate goal of a Narc, more so a sadistic cerebral narc-is only to increase his ego and the expense of yours--you may then begin to understand a "game" of sorts, you seem to just be walking into. Breaking the entire romantic idealism we created is the absolute hardest thing to break. I know. Can a narc ever be fixed? HELL NO!!!!
Dec 22 - 12PM (Reply to #3)
Hunter
Hunter's picture

Again.. Good question.. When

Again.. Good question.. When you find the answer.. Please pass it along.. Did you ever crack open an egg that's yoke was not exactly whole.. It had a bit of an addition.. .." flawed egg" it's different and you're unsure if it's safe to eat ,so you toss that damaged egg in the trash.. Same thing here.. Next time make sure the egg is perfect before eating.. And never scramble them.. It a personal favor to me!! :) Because that's all these Narcs are.. Scrambled Eggs.. Hunter
Dec 22 - 1PM (Reply to #4)
virginia (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

There is one comment the N made that told me he may be aware...

Thanks Hunter, Only one time in over 2 yrs. did my N make a straight out comment that really opened my eyes as to think they may be aware of their tactics sometimes, and not be aware at others. When I approached him one time for intimacy, while he was watching TV, he walked away and said, "Honey, I have to keep you off balance." I need to break you in and put a saddle on the horse." Note: My mature, yet free, happy spirit threatened him, as he knew I was not easy prey. I was not one to be controlled. I out smarted him and called him on it all of the time. I have high emotional intelligence while he lacks it. He would say, "Honey, I like a challenge, and that is why I am still with you." Makes me wonder right??? I think they may be aware of what their intentions are...scary!
Dec 22 - 2PM (Reply to #9)
Caligirl
Caligirl's picture

Virginia

My exN said he "runs women off." One woman was married and wouldn't "make up her mind" so he "ran her off." With me, the final d&d was so disrespectful, humiliating (talk of past sexual stuff), and hurtful, I had no choice, but to leave, i.e. he "ran me off." Sick freaks. Mine did A LOT of back and forth, hot and cold, push/pull in the final drawn out d&d. These are also characteristic of the borderline. I've been reading some on BPD. Even though men are usually Ns, the two, as Cluster B disorders, have a lot of overlap! You may want to look at that too. It enlightened me!