Please help, spiralling (was I abusive?)

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#1 Sep 6 - 4PM

megamillion

Please help, spiralling (was I abusive?)

Hi all,

Please forgive the length of this post. I'm usually able to talk myself out of this concern but I can't this time.

I was listening to the Aftermath radio programme with Dr. Jill Ricke and I was taking notes to share back with everyone - then they got to some of the "abusive" behaviors and once again I'm thinking "I sort of did that... AM I ABUSIVE? DID I CAUSE THIS LIKE EXN SAID?"

The example being Facebook and asking "who's that? etc" I did ask who was friending exN - I never accused exN of cheating directly but I asked her about a few people "Should I be worried?"

I'm sorry that I'm repeating myself but in March when I said "not talking is what broke us up" referring to the fact that she D&D'ed me without explanation in Oct '10 (she came home and said we weren't the right people for each other) - she responded with "NO, what broke us up was you being a nightmare. suspicious, demanding, jealous, controlling."
She repeated these accusations in the final D&D in April, along with
-I don't allow her to be friends with anyone bc I'm suspicious of them*, that I always ask "who's on the phone/text" (and I worked SO hard to ignore when she got messages - I think maybe she got pleasure in seeing me try to keep a straight face and the ability to call me out on it), *with good bl**dy reason-as at least 2 of those people told her (well, according to her) that she's the one that got away and they want to be with her.
-that she is always walking on eggshells,
-that I'm never happy to see her happy and
-that I was never happy.

I don't know how to get rid of these feelings or absolve myself of this if it's true. I am not trying to make excuses here because I WAS suspicious, I probably WAS a nightmare -
BUT I did this from a combination of insecurity and uncertainty because
-she'd already cheated (at least once) and later D&D'ed me/gone with OW,
-was refusing to fully commit to me but simultaneously promising that she wasn't going anywhere, that she loved me and she was going to marry me
-I could tell she was pulling away
-she was ST-ing and gaslighting me (I didn't know that's what it was then)
-she was having rage outburts and a total lack of empathy for my experiences and I kept trying to patiently explain/rephrase/explain again
-she was being guarded with her texts/emails
-she was openly flirting (not just as a joke and smile, but open sexual innuendo) with people in person, on twitter, and on Facebook (ex: she told our friend if she got her nose pierced she would have to sleep with her - reasoning: exN's exGF and I both once had our noses pierced... therefore she sleeps with all women with noserings)
-not asking about my life or contributing to building the future for us that she claimed she wanted ("5 year plan" and all)

I tried to fix it, I worked on myself (I still have work to go); I journalled, I got it out before I spoke to her, I tried to see it from her side as much as possible, give her the benefit of the doubt and tried to remember that as she said I had "nothing to be jealous of" and should "get a grip"; I tried to believe in myself and the future she was promising -

Thinking about all of this is immediately drawing me back into that crazy place I was then. The feelings and emotions about it are still so raw.

I am NC and have not been hoovered at all. I am not trying to Silent treatment her or control her or anything. I don't want to hear from her again. I really love(d) her and I wanted to believe what she said.

I know the Narc can influence/brainwash you into complete BPD behavior and it's "real" in that moment. If that was true in that moment, was I abusive and the root of all that happened and if I just kept it together I wouldn't be here?

I CANNOT AFFORD TO SLIP BACK INTO THIS MESS AGAIN. I feel like I'm cycling after feeling strong last night, weak this morning, then angry this afternoon thinking about the passive aggressive behaviors and stress she created in my life while I tried to care for us both. (Yes, major codependence)

What if I'm wrong and she's not a narcissist - or what if she is but I was the MORE abusive one and she did the right thing to get away from me??

Please help me stop
xxx
Mega

#2 Sep 7 - 2AM

megamillion

THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH EVERYONE

for all of your SENSE-MAKING comments and support!!! I am overwhelmed once again by the positive: the support in this community and the negative: the overlapping of our stories. Thank you again for helping me put the focus on what is important - not who is right or wrong, or whether she is or isn't but instead me and my AWESOME future - whatever it is, it will be awesome because it will be narc-free (well, free of exN and shutting down other Ns in their tracks)! xxx Mega

#3 Sep 7 - 2AM

Journey

Remove the doubt about your

Remove the doubt about your narc! She was abusive and you know it! I could have written the same thing, narcs ALWAYS leave us feeling like the guilty one, it's what they do best. With my exN, I'm not sure how many actual lies were told, but there were several lies of omission. I became a suspicious, insecure, shadow of myself... I think most people do with a narc because they orchestrate it to be so with their manipulative emotional control. We must be VERY sure of ourselves to NOT be affected by this. Trust what you know, not what she projected! Hugs!!

Journey on...

#4 Sep 7 - 3AM (Reply to #38)

megamillion

Thank you, Journey! Yes,

Thank you, Journey! Yes, several weeks ago the worry that plagued me was the EXTENT of her lying/omissions... because once you start to see cracks, the whole thing falls apart. But I am trying to focus on the fact that it doesn't matter - just that I am away from that toxic bundle of fear and loathing. Exactly as you said, the "suspicious, insecure, shadow of myself" emerges from their "manipulative emotional control." I definitely know, despite spiralling earlier, that I don't feel like a shadow of myself anymore, nor do I relate to anyone else this way. I am coming back to me. I will remember that it is projection and keep fighting away the mess she tried to leave behind! xxx Mega

#5 Sep 7 - 1AM

Miss_Jade

Just the other day you were

Just the other day you were making fun of my narc for doing the same shit. Now, you know its not you. We all do chica. My ex did that to me all the time, and i was asking him who was on his facebook from time to time too. But it was because he threatened to cheat on me and "give my job to someone else if i didnt do better" and flat out lied to me long before i began to do that. She betrayed your trust and you wanted to believe the best of her because you cared about her. And since she betrayed your trust, you felt the need to ask or wonder what messages people sent her. Thats HER fault for lying, not YOURS. That does not make you abusive. Dont let yourself get trapped back into the never ending questions that we all beat ourselves up mercilessly with. Youre OK and even if she wasnt a complete narc shes mentally sick in someway. they make you mentally sick. I hit my narc in the face as hard as i could the night we broke up, i was so crazy from all the mind games i didnt know up from down. A truly abusive person wouldnt be on here offering support to like minded women they dont even know. theyd be off somewhere trying to suck the life out of someone new. Lol. EVERYTHING you have listed here are things that my narc did to me almost everyday. If that makes you abusive, then i belong in prison for my crimes against him. =p Stay strong girlie, were here for you. *Hugs*

#6 Sep 7 - 3AM (Reply to #36)

megamillion

You're right, Miss Jade!!

You're right, Miss Jade!! It's funny (sad?) how we can see it so clearly for someone else but in our own situations, we start to doubt... it's that lingering projection and questioning brought on by these Ns. Gonna shake it all off and keep fighting for a better, brighter future - thanks for your support! xxx Mega

#7 Sep 6 - 7PM

rosedewittbukater

Mega - what Spinning said!

They are masters at getting us to "own" their shit. I have asked myself just about every single question you are asking in this post, and your story sounds so much like mine!!! These behaviors you are describing are not the behaviors of a healthy, loving woman! This I know. You sound like a genuinely good and caring human. It is only natural for you to ask the question "was I the abuser" but almost by the very fact of your asking means you were not! Abusers are not out there asking questions about whether or not they hurt another person. You had every right to question her secretive behavior and what sounds like blatant flirting. I feel that flirting while in a relationship is abusive! Whether or not it takes place on FB, in person, on the phone/text - it DOESNT MATTER it is still wrong! I am not talking about the innocent comment (as you pointed out) but ongoing sexual innuendos and the like, which make the partner feel disrespected and insecure! And think about it...as I relate it to my own situation - if it is innocent or harmless, then why did she try to hide it and flame at you for pointing it out?? These people men and women alike that have this disorder are unleashing crazy making behavior on their victims, baiting and so on and then projecting on to us when we react to it!!! I understand the BPD thing, I have questioned this about myself occasionally as I do have great fears of abandonment and a few other symptoms. I really don't think this is the case here. I get the codependency thing too. But even if you are codependent you sure did not ask to be treated this way. I hope this helps some and I wish for you continued healing my friend. xx, Rose

#8 Sep 7 - 3AM (Reply to #34)

megamillion

THANK YOU, Rose! I'm sorry

THANK YOU, Rose! I'm sorry you had to go through similar crud with your exN - you're right, if it was innocent, it wouldn't be an issue. It never was an issue for me to explain anything remotely similar (heck, exN had no reason to ask/worry - I was in hook, line and sinker). You are right: NONE of us, not one, woke up one day and said "hey, please treat me this way." No one deserves this crazy-making and heaping piles of projection. Thanks also for the healing wishes xxx Mega

#9 Sep 7 - 2AM (Reply to #32)

lillymarch

About the co-dependent thing...

The only place I see that we all have been co-dependent is in our staying as long as we did. We gave up taking care of ourselves and stayed with the abuse. Other than that, THEY were the abusers, the liers, and the cheaters. They were lucky we were codependent or we may have dropped their sorry asses a long time ago.

#10 Sep 7 - 3AM (Reply to #33)

megamillion

AGREE completely, Lillymarch!

AGREE completely, Lillymarch! We gave up ourselves and many of us absorbed or filled ourselves with their darkness - they were only too lucky to have us for the time they did. xxx Mega

#11 Sep 6 - 6PM

Done sourcing

Three issues... One, what if

Three issues... One, what if she wasnt/isnt a narc? She is something disordered! Enough said. Get used to it. Embrace it. Own it. Keep it in directly in front of you. She is the liar, the cheat, and the thief! Two, would different behavior on your part change anything? Only the particular circumstances. The end result is always the same. It wont work. Period. You will never get a good relationship with a disordered person. They are feeders, you are the food source. Three, what to do from here? Smile more. Learn to laugh at yourself and your fantasy. Know that you are capable of loving. Know that you deserve to be loved. Know that nc makes the path smoother. Know that this will pass. Use this time to get better with yourself. Read some good stuff. Join a group. Get a therapist. Get physically fit, or fitter. Find a cause or group in need and volunteer your time and effort. Be blessed and know that we love you just as you are. ds

#12 Sep 7 - 3AM (Reply to #30)

megamillion

Thank you, DS - I've seen the

Thank you, DS - I've seen the crazymaking your exNW puts you through and the way you've handled your own experience is inspiring (though I'm sorry you've had to deal with it all). Thank you also for "breaking it down" into three points - it helps me to count it out, too. You are TOO right: She's toxic, it would/could not have changed (and who would want it anyway), and my own development and smile is what I want to grow for my future. I'm busting butt in the gym and connecting with people intellectually through my research, job searching, and helping my sister stay calm in the run up to her wedding (! a whole different crazy-making, haha). I'm gonna take it one day at a time and keep fighting! xxx Mega

#13 Sep 6 - 5PM

Hunter

Yes your post in long and I

Yes your post in long and I just skimmed it! If you are here there is a problem! The relationship is toxic! Whoever you were listening to .. It's crap.. Or you just taking it wrong! The narcs best quality it to turn shit around so you feel like it's your fault! Projection! You need to understand your strengths, you need understand this person is not for you! You are working hard to get better I see that! Don't doubt yourself!! Hunter

#14 Sep 7 - 3AM (Reply to #28)

megamillion

Thank you, Hunter!! You are

Thank you, Hunter!! You are right, I have to remember that if I'm here something was seriously wrong - Gonna focus on me and making my future something I can believe and be firmly rooted in, instead of the crazy mirages of the projected past. xxx Mega

#15 Sep 6 - 4PM

spinning

mega, sweet girl,

you are a communicator by nature. And a good one, I can tell from your writing. You are thoughtful and sensitive. It is normal to ask questions of your partner/love interest. It is normal to ask about someone they're talking to on the phone. It is normal to ask who that FB friend is. If the person has nothing to hide or is not being deceitful, the NORMAL THING TO DO would be to answer your question and smile and give you a hug. A person who CARES ABOUT NURTURING THE RELATIONSHIP does not accuse you of being controlling or suspicious simply by asking a question abuot their life, THE LIFE THAT YOU SHARE WITH THEM!!!! Mega, you must shift this thought process immediately and remember that your behavior was normal because you were going on your instinct and her past behavior. She cheated. You knew it. She was secretive. You knew it. Something was up, you might not have known exactly BUT YOU KNEW SOMETHING WAS UP. Do not let her projections (i.e. you were controlling, insecure, abusive, etc.) seep into your psyche. You are studying all about this and you are learning and progressing. I see it in your posts. You are already reaching out to try to help others with compassion and empathy. THESE ARE THE GREAT QUALITIES THE DISORDERED ONES WANT AND THEREFORE TRY TO DESTROY! Do not forget who you are! It's hard after years of a disordered relationship (I was in one for six years and I'm just now remembering how it really was HIM AND NOT ME!) I'm going to repeat that to you, dear sweet mega. IT IS HER, NOT YOU! YOU WERE DUPED. You were good supply until she decided you weren't. It's really as simple as that and has nothing to do with who you really are. I hope this helps, brave mega. You're doing great. You must continue to fight against the brainwashing. It will get less and less the more NC time you have under your belt. It's still early for you, dearheart. Fight the old script. She said those things to deflect the blame, to confuse and to make you feel bad. You KNOW THE TRUTH NOW! IT'S HER, NOT YOU!!! Love and hugs from, (determined to never again be) spinning. THE SICK USERS AREN'T WORTH THE ENERGY!

spinning

#16 Sep 7 - 2AM (Reply to #26)

megamillion

Thank you, Spinning, so much

Thank you, Spinning, so much for redirecting the focus, reminding me what is normal and remembering that this is what they do - I have to change my thoughts and stop taking her blame and opinions as truth. I'm making your suggestion my motto this week: "Fight the old script." I can do it, I have what it takes! Thank you again for your patient and kind encouragement xxx Mega

#17 Sep 7 - 12AM (Reply to #24)

uk lady

Mega

Spinning has said exactly what I was wanted to say but she has put it so much better than I could. You deserve so much more than she was. Dee x

#18 Sep 7 - 2AM (Reply to #25)

megamillion

Thank you, Dee! Your posts on

Thank you, Dee! Your posts on other threads have helped me and taught me so much lately. I agree, we all deserve so much more - gonna keep fighting for that! xxx Mega

#19 Sep 6 - 5PM (Reply to #18)

Susan32

Great comment

"A person who cares about nurturing a relationship does not accuse you of being controlling or suspicious simply by asking a question about their life, the life that you share with them"- That's what precipitated the final D&D. I was asking the ex-Psych prof personal questions, about his vegetarianism, about his father... and he accused me of those things and would say "None of your business." The ex-P was secretive about his girlfriend, I called him on it. When I congratulated him on being engaged, he ACCUSED me of imposing myself on him&violating his personal boundaries (what a great way to kick off married life) He accused me of not respecting his boundaries... when all I did was want to wish him closure&a happy life.

#20 Sep 7 - 2AM (Reply to #23)

megamillion

Susan32, all of your posts

Susan32, all of your posts about exP just astound me - what a twisted man. I'm glad to see you didn't lose yourself to his wackiness - as you say, discussing normal things one would do with a friend or wishing someone happiness is not pushing boundaries... it's being social and (gasp!) caring! Thank you for sharing xxx Mega

#21 Sep 6 - 5PM (Reply to #19)

Unfreakinreal

Those friggin boundaries...

My absolute pet peeve. I was always crossing boundaries that I didnt even know existed but the ones he set, he crossed whenever he pleased. WTF??? It's hard to play by the rules when you have no idea what the hell they are. I guess I was absent that day during Mindfuck 101.

#22 Sep 7 - 2AM (Reply to #22)

megamillion

Thanks Unfreakinreal - you're

Thanks Unfreakinreal - you're right they just love to smash rules and boundaries, and change them to suit their moods and inclinations! Hahaha Mindfuck 101 - yes, I could have used a syllabus to keep course of what was happening and be expected to pass (!); then I should have padded my degree in NPD with -Advanced All About Me -Calculating Mating -It's All Business 301 -NLP 401: Advanced NarcSpeak -Criminology: Psychopathy and Peter Panopticon and of course -Toaster (De)preciation 102 xxx Mega

#23 Sep 6 - 10PM (Reply to #21)

grace67

Unfreakinreal

"..I guess I was absent that day during Mindfuck 101." I Literally LOL'd!!! Thanks. I think we can all use as many good laughs as we can get! :D

#24 Sep 6 - 5PM (Reply to #20)

Susan32

In the end...

I saw his boundaries as something that existed to be crossed. Whenever I've broken NC, I've stepped, bounded across them. I guess I got tired of the double standard. He didn't like being called by his first name, he wouldn't let his colleagues do it-I do it anyhow. LOL It's a constant changing of the rules. My Narc grandmother loves the game Liverpool, and the rules change with every single round.

#25 Sep 6 - 5PM (Reply to #16)

FarmGirl

I've not asked who called or

I've not asked who called or texted or whatever for so many years now it actually physically makes me feel sick to think of doing it. Is it ok? How do I not know this anymore? I need therapy lol.

#26 Sep 7 - 2AM (Reply to #17)

megamillion

I'm so sorry, FarmGirl, that

I'm so sorry, FarmGirl, that you're so confused - I saw your other thread and will post a reply there. Hang in there xxx Mega

#27 Sep 6 - 4PM

megamillion

Okay, I've gotten myself under control

I've read Sea's post about fighting (esp AgnesMurphy's note about them needing chaos/creating it/blaming W - this was EXACTLY what exN did: said we fought all the time and she was miserable while I was trying to have as adult conversations as possible to resolve issues and move forward), one from the other section with Auntie Alex's snippets again, and several other threads and the behaviors exN displayed are ALL there. I know what she is. I know and will remember that this is not my fault; I made mistakes and I will forgive myself for those mistakes. Thanks for letting me vent and work it out in writing xxx Mega

#28 Sep 6 - 10PM (Reply to #11)

rosedewittbukater

Fighting

OMG this was what mind said all the time! I'm tired of fighting! Can someone point me towards this post by Sea? The one that Mega mentioned above? thks Rose

#29 Sep 7 - 2AM (Reply to #14)

megamillion

Hi Rose - did you find that

Hi Rose - did you find that thread by Sea/Sumiko? I'm linking to AgnesMurphy's comment because it was really helpful for me but all of the comments in that thread show how "fighting" warped and twisted the experience - where fighting came to be so much more than about the issue at hand: http://www.lisaescott.com/forum/2011/09/06/n-loves-fight-all-time#comment-148209 xxx Mega

#30 Sep 6 - 11PM (Reply to #12)

Caligirl

Fighting, mine too!

He'd either say, "I don't want to fight" and hang up when I had a need or question or text me the same. I'd respond "I don't want to fight either, but how can we resolve it if we don't talk?" Followed by more ST. :(

#31 Sep 7 - 3AM (Reply to #13)

megamillion

Word for word/action for

Word for word/action for action by exN... told me she "couldn't take the fighting anymore" as a veiled threat of leaving. I was trying to fix/stop the fighting!! Ugh, JERKS! xxx Mega

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