The Path Forward Virtual Retreat Febuary 2021!



Hmmmm - We're Angry and We're Hurt and We Can't Live with these guys BUT...

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#1 Dec 1 - 3AM
Anonymous (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Hmmmm - We're Angry and We're Hurt and We Can't Live with these guys BUT...

I came across a quote on SociopathWorld that in a way made sense...maybe it will help some of us heal?..BUT STAY FAR AWAY ANYWAY?...Thoughts?

I’m not trying to start a war here, but I do feel it’s necessary to say this: Sociopaths have a cognitive disability. They’re not necessarily evil, and they can be taught more positive ways of interacting with people. And I am very strongly opposed to demonizing any group of people on the basis of their neurology

Dec 2 - 4PM
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Some More thoughts

You know, I had a moment yesterday, and I think it's okay to feel anger, and I never meant to express there was something wrong with it... I had to think aloud. I think yesterday was about a desperate attempt to get away from the overwhelming negativity that all of this entails. It is negative. But just like in College, sometimes in the school of life, you study for a semester. The longer you study them and thier illness, the less time you have to study you. Studying them at GREAT length, takes away from you. I think I wanted to call a pyschological truce yesterday - get to an "it is what it is" because that is the reality and I've been stuck in an illusion for a long time. In a life long ago, if I was sitting on the stoop in the "Ghetto" drinking a beer with my "homegirls" one of them would have blurted out: "Girl da nigga is ghetto" So here I sit behind a computer, too poor to even pay attention, rent paid not much else and at the end of the day, whether he has a chicken nugget for a brain, a heart made of coal, qualifies for the label of Sociopath. The Nigga is Ghetto... That's my final assessment - for today.
Dec 2 - 7PM (Reply to #100)
Briseis
Briseis's picture

What matters in the final

What matters in the final analysis is what he is to YOU. Each of us has our own sense of "truth", when you hear it or realize it, it rings like a bell. Whatever THAT is, that bell ringing, is what I mean by sensing the "truth". I too can get incredibly complex and analytical, and know more about this crap than most people forgot. At the same time, I feel deep down inside "Of course he did what he did. He's a goddamn NARC." You really can only learn "so much" about what makes them tick. But you can't ever learn everything about yourself and how you as a "self" interfaces with life and other people. That stuff doesn't seem to have an ending. There's always MORE, when it comes to ourselves and our life. I didn't really get that until after the Narc.
Dec 2 - 7PM (Reply to #101)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

And you know Brie...

Con artists that they are, if they knew this, they'd fucking charge for the experience... Da Nigga is Ghetto!.... LMAO... You know, I think that is what I'm gonna brainwash myself with...I think that might just do the trick... My new mantra...Da Nigga is Ghetto... Ok AANH: Sing it With me: Guuuurl, da Nigga is Ghetttttoooo
Dec 2 - 11PM (Reply to #102)
Briseis
Briseis's picture

In my particular "ethnic"

In my particular "ethnic" milieu, my mantra was "what a f*cking LOSER" (this is definitely very West Coast :D ). It seems to sum him up, and say reams and reams of words and descriptions, all in a few words. I guess that's what a mantra IS.
Dec 3 - 12AM (Reply to #103)
NancyM
NancyM's picture

Mantra

Knight in shining armor? Hmmmph....tosser in tin foil. just thought I would throw that one in;)

Nevergoback

Dec 2 - 9AM
insectt (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

There is also a statement

There is also a statement that I read, which I am paraphrasing (and a few people echoed the same thing)..is that: If a dog has rabies, it doesn't matter HOW he got them...but he has them and you need to make yourself safe. The statement was something like that, and I think about it often. Even tho it isn't the dogs fault and most people love dogs, he is till a danger to you and others....
Dec 2 - 5AM
Scoop
Scoop's picture

Heres my take on the narc ,

Heres my take on the narc , my narc was very good at faking his whole personality , he had learnt correct responces to situations and put them into practice when he wanted something from the other person , when he no longer wanted supply from another he didnt bother with the "correct responce" he just crushed the other person . Now did he know what he was doing and dose he understand that is wrong ? YES . If he is bright enough to know how to manipulate then he is bright enough to understaand the emotional buttons to push in another he is also bright enough to know if he acts cruley he will hurt another person . This is a CHOISE he makes . Look i dont believe or understand how people can believe in some religions but i respect peoples right to believe in them and i wouldnt trash someone because they believed in a concept i dont understand . My narc may not understand the full range of emotions but he COULD respect other people who do , yet he CHOOSES to uses other peoples emotions to get what HE wants . A psycopath who commits a terrible crime can not plead insanity to get of a prison sentance , our law recognises that poor emotional awhereness is not an illness , we are all taught the same things at school, we all live day in and day out in this society where we are constantly reminded right from wrong. Take Ted Bundy , he drove a car , which means he passed his driving test , in order to pass a driving test you need to learn a lot of rules , just driving youre car around the roads means you have to adhear to a lot of rules so he was clever enough to understand the rules of the road but yet the rule of "thou shalt not kill " passed him by ? what.. he never learnt that was wrong? ... i dont think so! and that is why they fryed his sorry arse in the electric chair .. good ...
Dec 2 - 9AM (Reply to #97)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Scoop

Very good points!
Dec 2 - 9AM (Reply to #91)
blueeyes
blueeyes's picture

Scoop..

I get creeped out thinking about Ted Bundy, his childhood and his representation of himself in court make me sick. Think about what he did to his own mother right before his execusion? Terrible, he didn't have to tell her anything, he wanted her to hurt i assume from what I read. I could be wrong? He is just a monster. I have no idea right now my stance on Pychopath's because I am in a very weird place and I have alot to learn. It all sounds so complicating to me now that I first hand have been on the other side of one of these monsters. Your Narc sounds exactly like mine, except yours was smarter. Mine couldn't see when someone stopped filling a need? So weird.
Dec 2 - 9AM (Reply to #92)
Used
Used's picture

blueyes

i have read about ted bundy.. but i didnt know what he told his mother? what was it he told her?
Dec 2 - 11AM (Reply to #93)
blueeyes
blueeyes's picture

Used, I read that Ted Bundy

(In a book) so don't quote me, that Ted Bundy (after the final interview with james Dodson name?) that he called his mother and confessed in a nonchalant, mean,degrading kinda way and it killed her til this day. She always believed his innocence (at least in the forefront of her mind) and she stood by him. Apparently, when he did confess to his mother before execution, he implied that she was dumb not to have known, which may be true but this book made her out to be so sweet and undeserving of this. The writer of the book took a liking to his mother and felt bad that he crushed her so hard right before he dies. This author felt the way he spoke to her and what he said was insane. I am not sure it actually happened? This was what I read. It makes sense he had no feelings. I just tried to google this but it just says he "calls his mother right before execution." Anyone else read this? (is this the never ending thread?)
Dec 2 - 11AM (Reply to #94)
Used
Used's picture

blueyes

thanks for that, i have one book the stranger beside me by ann rule. i just googled it too but had read all that b/f, if this is true what he said to his mother,and i believe it, he was blaming her then? his hatred of women, i guess cos she had "played his sister all those years", alth i know a couple of people 3 that their sister turned out to be their mother.. it doesnt turn you into a serial killer does it?, people have always remarked on his good looks, i never saw that either, i know hindsight is 20/20 so easy to say now ,ibut i always thought he looked realy odd..thankyou blueyes
Dec 2 - 11AM (Reply to #95)
blueeyes
blueeyes's picture

Used, No problem

I don't know, girlfriend. I wish I had the answer to this question, "what makes you a serial killer?" I'd somehow make millions. lol. seriously, that call to his Mom really bothered me too. One last dickhead move to feel at peace that you hurt someone so when your executed you can feel good that you've crushed your mother's feelings? Well, then again, she was his sister too so he didn't look at her as a mother, I guess. Yea, I read Ann Rule's as well. A long time ago. A good looking yet creepy psychopath? Seems pretty normal to me, NOW that I am divorcing one. When I read Ann's book, I didn't think my HN would have that in him. I was wrong.
Dec 2 - 11AM (Reply to #96)
desprathousewife
desprathousewife's picture

Hmmmm

Thanks Blue, you've given me an idea for another rhyme :) I'll do anything to avoid this vent eh? LOL
Dec 1 - 9PM
Disillusionedx2
Disillusionedx2's picture

Michele

This was a very spirited and lively discussion, I learned alot from it, thanks for settin it off. Ladies, please try not to take one another personally, we all are wounded comrades, fighting the same battle. As women we are emotional creatures (no disrespect intended)we have empathy for one another and hopefully the utmost respect. We don't know what kind of shape another of our comrades is in behind these monitors that maybe already over the edge from Narc, imagine all of us in a small room with PMS, amped up, scary, a lot of emotion to go around, my point is there are times when I feel overlooked,misunderstood (not specific to this board but in general) and such, I don't take it personally, I move around, get in where I fit in, so please don't throw in the towel and leave the board it's so beneficial to us all. Michele, and anyone else, do you remember the movie "Bad Seed" I've always liked it, the scenario is a very mean lil girl who commits murder 2 or 3 times I forget, could google but I don't feel like it, lol, she was cute lil girl but obviously Satans offspring, she's a child, she killed with malice, she seemed to know what she was doing, I am not sure what her punishment was if any but do you believe the N to be similar in nature, not the fact that she murdered, but was she disordered and didn't know any better?

stay~strong

Dec 1 - 10PM (Reply to #89)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Oye...Disillusioned...didn't even answer the ?

I don't remember the movie BAd seed i don't think I saw it - but I have a general idea... I want to think Frankenstein. Life occupying a corpse. He said he was empty... One time he yelled at me: "What, you gonna fill me up" It was like he was trying to push me away after he got caught with flirting/cheating online with the girl. I don't think he's with anyone... I don't think he likes him I think he knows he's dark but doesn't know what it is or what to do or if he can do anything I think he knows he can't but doesn't know what we know? And I think he doesn't want to know? I remember him telling me - he was allegedly 18 years clean...if I EVER fall off the wagon, you have to get me out of here you can't let me stay here... Things like that make me wonder...almost like he was trying but they were glimmers of red flags all along and then BAM and that is what was so shocking I think. Had it been over the course of the relationship steady, I think I would have not been so screwed up, I would have been fed up But it just came out like a sea of locusts... Frakenstein...
Dec 1 - 10PM (Reply to #88)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Disillusioned

I think he was made into a monster that is the only thing I can conclude... He did not hit me not that it makes him less of an abuser? He might have tried someday? I've heard he has hit other women...BUT...oh man...this is cool well it's sadistic, but his middle son's mother practically did a Lorena Bobbit on him...they got into some fight, he was in his undies, I think he hit her, and she grabbed his jewels. He said he went to class, went to the bathroom and there was nothing but blood running down his leg. He fainted and woke up in the hospital. said he was there three days - BUT how much did the woman put up with to do that ya know? I'm not a meek mild kind of gal...but I'm soft hearted too. I'm not tuff, but I can "play" it I've had to cause I didn't have a dad to polish the shotgun... Not saying that anyone here isn't tuff...but I give all potential boyfriends the "speech" early on, I kinda work it in...I don't even know where the heck it came from, it's just something I always did early on...let them know... "I've never been hit Thank God cause man, you'd have to KILL me, seriously, like if you hit me, you better make sure that is the end it won't be one of those you hit me and then off to bed, cause I'll just stab you in your sleep and you know if you're in MY apartment, I guess it could be called "self defense"..." It's worked...and I think he's capable of hitting a woman, but he NEVER even thought about it...walked out the house if he got too hot - and not for long...little walk around the block... And seriously, my mind is so blown cause he was so "normal" or I wasn't hep to his shenanigans until May then he just turned into another creature. Mindgames but almost sinister a whole personality change for sure...I remember one time, and I didn't get all let me read you the riot act often...but after i found out about the FB affair, one night I just ripped him a new asshole. And he just sat there and glared...if eyes could throw knives. He didn't say anything - but it hit me the wrong way cause I mean what woman doesn't give her man the riot act when they screw up?...but he had the AUDACITY, to get this look ah, you know...none of it matters... Yes, Disilllusioned, I think he's a brut, Frankenstein, I think his ego is weak, I think he really really believes that at any time he can just waltz back in, I think his pride is high, I think his ass is on his shoulders, he's arrogant but to tell you the truth...I think he could have a harem of women and still be empty. He did talk about the void. He has a number of FB friends...no real ties, conversations No friends except the gay guy and even that Pffft nope, no real friends Family doesn't want him around...not that they're better they're all sick I used to peek at friends FB pictures to see if I saw him after we parted, I saw him in a number of pics...but dancing alone most times, a crowd together and him off to the side? He's a five year old stuck in a 47 year old body - I don't think he can reason... Ahhh full of verbal diarrahea tonight hey? Thanks for being open Disillusioned...I appreciate it... Hugs.
Dec 1 - 7PM
Lisa E. Scott
Lisa E. Scott's picture

Anger

I'm trying to catch-up on this thread the best I can so I apologize if I've missed any points that need to be addressed, but after reading what I read, I'm copying and pasting some info. from the new book that I think is helpful on the topic of Anger. I realize much of this discussion is about whether we should feel sorry for them or not, but in my mind, I can feel sorry for them and still be angry. I hope you will see that we don't necessarily have to always have someone to BLAME. There doesn't always have to be a RIGHT or WRONG. All we need to know is that these people are permanently disordered and will never change. If we want to feel sorry for them, we can, but it doesn't mean we should take on any responsibility or blame ourselves. Not at all! At the end of the day, what we must honor is our feelings. If we cannot honor our feelings, we deny our true selves. ANGER Steps 5 & 6 are dedicated to dealing with the feelings that are the most difficult to process and confront. These feelings are anger and fear. We avoid these emotions like the plague. There are many reasons for this, but unfortunately few of us realize how avoiding these feelings keep us stuck, just like the PDI (Personality Disordered Individual). In my opinion, anger and fear are our most powerful emotions. They are most powerful because they are the most motivating of ALL feelings. Anger and fear cause you to act more than any other feeling. Sadness causes us to curl up. Shame causes us to hide, but anger and fear....they cause us to act! Let’s look at anger first. Many of us were taught to repress anger, especially women. Anger has a negative connotation because most people associate it with aggression. But in reality, anger is followed by violence only 10 percent of the time, according to Howard Kassinove, PH.D., co-author of Anger Management: The Compete Treatment Guide for Practice. Many of us are conditioned to feel shame for feeling any feelings of anger. Anger runs deep. We may have feelings of anger towards members of our family, but we refuse to acknowledge these feelings. This is natural. We’re afraid if we acknowledge our anger about it, it will mean we do not love them. This is irrational and keeps us stuck. We must feel our feelings to heal. It is ok to be angry about how we were treated in the past. We must acknowledge and honor our feelings. To do otherwise is to deny our true self. We may not only feel shame, but in the case of our PDI, we simply do not want to face the truth. To face the truth means we have to make changes in our life that will not be easy. It takes courage to get real. I know I buried my head in the sand for years at the end of my marriage. I didn’t want to admit that my marriage was not working. It’s simply easier to deny things sometimes. However, to deny our feelings is to deny our true selves and is no way to live. Used productively, anger can help us restore our self-esteem and exert more control over our life. I believe that processing our anger is absolutely critical to our recovery. However, we must be careful in how we process it. Anger is neither a positive or negative emotion. How we respond and react to anger is what makes all the difference in the world. You already know I feel very strongly about the fact that life is all about how we respond to it. Happiness and success in life is determined on how we choose to respond to what happens to us. Life is messy. No one ever said it would be easy or perfect. The key to success is making wise choices in response to life’s daily struggles. It’s how we respond and react to anger that makes a difference. It is the way we handle our anger that makes it negative or positive. The key is not to avoid anger, the key is to learn how to RESPOND to anger. Anger and fear motivate more than any other emotion and we should recognize and utilize their power. The idea of constructive anger is gaining a great deal of empirical support lately. Research tells us that processing our anger in productive ways leads to health benefits. Experts say that constructive anger can improve intimate and work relationships. It is one thing to stay silent when you disagree with someone or something, but quite another to simply allow others to walk all over you. Some of you may just be starting to realize what an abusive relationship you were really in. I would guarantee that feelings of anger at your significant other are what finally caused you to see the light and take action. Anger is a natural defense mechanism designed to protect us from pain and abuse. We should never deny our feelings of anger. Anger like all feelings is a normal, healthy and essential emotion. Getting angry does not make you a bad person. Personally, I believe without this instinct we would be extinct! Anger is a biological safeguard to ensure our survival. Anger is our body’s response to internal or external demands, threats and pressures. Anger warns us that there is a problem or a potential threat. At the same time, it gives us courage to face the problem or meet the threat by providing us with a release of the hormone adrenaline. Adrenaline prepares us to meet the threat by raising our defenses and giving us a boost of energy. This in turn provides us with added strength to fight off our enemy or added speed in which to run from the enemy. Think of Darwin’s survival of the fittest theory. We should never ignore our emotions. They exist for a reason: to warn us, protect us and guide us through life. We feel threatened by the cruel behavior or abusive remarks of others. We have a right to be angry when someone hurts or insults us. It is a threat to our emotional well-being. Anger is the emotion that alerts us that something is wrong and causes us to finally take action. Do not hide from your anger. You must recognize it as a signal that there is a problem that needs to be resolved. We become angry because there is an issue of some kind that requires our attention. In my opinion, anger is like an internal alarm system telling us something is wrong. To ignore it is dangerous. Research tells us women who do not acknowledge anger or do not process anger in a healthy way are more vulnerable to health problems. Rates of diagnosed breast cancer are found to be higher in women who have never openly expressed their anger. Hopefully, you’re beginning to see the importance of acknowledging and processing your feelings of anger when they occur. If we do not allow ourselves to feel anger, we lose out on the benefits of it – motivation, strength, energy, power and protection. Unfortunately, many of us do not realize just how powerful a force anger can be. When anger is used to motivate us to make life changes that promote our emotional well-being, it is positive. However, when we express anger through aggressive or passive-aggressive means, it is negative. Anger can motivate you to make needed changes in your life or it can make you emotionally and physically ill if you hold it in. It can empower you or it can kill your relationships if you take your anger out on someone in the wrong way. Instead of being honest and acknowledging their anger, many people shift blame, project and abuse others. I believe the way you handle your anger affects all of your relationships, including your relationship with yourself. Many of us are so afraid of anger that we direct the anger inward at ourselves instead of expressing it outward. Others take their anger out on innocent people. Anger externalized can lead to violence, while anger internalized causes depression and health problems. Why is it that we feel there are only two responses to anger – to blame others or blame ourselves? Why does someone always have to be right and someone else have to be wrong? Thinking in black and white terms like this closes us down and makes our world smaller. Wanting things to fit in a perfect little box is futile. We will only find ourselves banging our head against the wall in frustration instead of learning from the experience. If we allow ourselves to learn from the disagreement, we may realize there are much needed changes we need to make in our life. Life is how we respond to it. We need to open our minds and heart to stay in the uncertainty where we don’t know who’s right or who’s wrong. It doesn’t matter. What matters is what you learn from it. What is your experience? This is living. This is open space. Everything is ambiguous and always changing, shifting. Finding absolute right and wrong is a trick we play on ourselves to think we’re in control. We think it helps us feel safe and secure. Unfortunately, it does the opposite. It makes us more uneasy because we know we’re lying to ourselves. Subconsciously, we know this. Instead of lying or hiding from the truth, we must be compassionate with ourselves. We tell ourselves we want unconditional love from another person, yet we can’t even give that to ourselves. Instead of acknowledging when we are wrong or when we have faults, we lie to ourselves that we are perfect. No one is perfect. To be with someone who unconditionally loves you means they accept you for who you are – they take the good with the bad and they love you unconditionally. Why can’t we do this for ourselves?! Until we can do this for ourselves, we will never live an authentic life. We must be honest and compassionate with ourselves. This is what they call loving-kindness in Buddhism. We must go easy on ourselves to find love for the parts of ourselves that aren’t perfect. If we can’t love ourselves, we cannot expect anyone else to love us. You will remain in a state of pain, darkness or unhappiness as long as you continue to lie to yourself and deny your reality. Resistance of the present moment is what keeps us stuck in the unconscious realm. The more you resist the present moment, the more pain you create within yourself. We must get real to heal!!!! If your ex cheated on you, it can be very difficult not to want to blame the person they had an affair with and focus your anger there. However, we must recognize that by blaming someone else, we are denying the truth about the reality of our situation, which is that the person we loved cheated on us. It’s not easy to admit this so we often waste a lot of energy shifting blame and being mad at the other person. This just keeps us stuck and will only slow down our recovery process. Until we can acknowledge who we are really angry at, we will never work through our feelings so we can move on. The only way to live an authentic life is to feel and get real. Many people are afraid of the truth. However, to finally confront the truth is the most liberating and freeing thing you can do for yourself. It’s not easy, but it is so worth it. To read about the power of FACING FEAR, check out today's Blog.
Dec 1 - 8PM (Reply to #86)
Susan32
Susan32's picture

Anger kept me alive!

During the D&D, one of my friends asked if I had been considering suicide. She knew I was despairing, in pain, depressed, and humiliated. What's weird is that suicide never crossed my mind- because I was TOO ANGRY. I was too angry to kill myself or desire to kill myself. I saw being alive as the ultimate form of revenge. He wanted me to be so heartbroken I'd kill myself... this is a professor who wanted me to commit suicide freshman year. Believe me, I was too pissed to be suicidal! My being alive would be one deep, deep Narc injury and show he wasn't God Almighty with power over life and death...
Dec 1 - 1PM
betty2020
betty2020's picture

We must distinguish their

We must distinguish their classification before we attempt to give support to the idea of accountability or non-accountability. This is a huge philosophical debate that has been on going for a long time. To quote the "Father" that coined the term psychopathy, a german psychiatrist (koch) that developed the theory on psychopathy as we call it today; "even in the bad cases, the irregularities do not amount to mental disorder" (Lewis 1974). So is psychopathy a mental disorder/illness that has a physical component rendering the patient disabled, debilitated and unaware of their condition? Or is psychopathy a personality disorder/illness, one that is not of a biological deformity but rather a learned behavioral response base on childhood experiences? In either case the question remains at what point do we draw the line of distinction and definitively say that ones awareness is or is not limited based on their type of disorder. What characteristics or traits must they display to considered grounds for lack of accountability within their actions a behaviors? Not all mental illnesses carry a destructive component to them. Many of the more serious illness can actually be quite the opposite. Patients such as these require care in a clinical setting and are dependent on others for assistance. Personality disordered individuals are able to function quite well on their own. Actually maybe too highly functionable. Most being well verse at sociological adaptation. The have the cognitive ability's to get what they want and require for their survival. Is this a mental handicap? The line needs to be drawn by the powers that be. (APA). But making this distinction is something that has been so controversial that it could prove a political disaster in the end for those that have to make them. So it continues to be swept under the rug. There is much research this as it relates to how we ultimately punish those for crimes of all types of victimization. (Elizabeth Smart) To what degree do we hold them accountable for their actions and what criteria defines this? If we had an answer, it would solve 1/2 of our problems in the judicial system and society as a whole. Theory after theory has been presented but we have yet to adopt a definitive answer/solution to this issue. http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/mental-illness/ xoxo only one way to go...Forward (tm?)

only one way to go...Forward (tm?)

Dec 1 - 3PM (Reply to #71)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Betty AND What inspired this topic...

Wow!...yes!...and it will go on and on and on...I surmise that people are scared to touch the issue because then you get into the "gray" areas of human rights...if it is proven they have a chicken nugget for a brain and this "disability" "deformity" whatever the heck is PC these days, causes them to cause harm to the other than that makes them a potential criminal...but then you have to get into what constitutes harm...how do you prove psychological harm so on and so forth. When they commit such harm, are they jailed or institutionalied? I posted an article several weeks ago about France and how they now will fine a perpetrator of this exact type of crime I think the figure was 125K and/or five years in jail - but how do they enforce it, how are determinations made of harm...blah, blah, blah...AND there are so MANY of them - and how much money are we talking to get to the answers, and what is the cost to insurance companies if they actually went forward in a perfect world with research to find a cure- who pays to house these dangers to society and are they put away before they commit the act? What if it is determined that a chicken nugget brain can be seen in a 7 year old who's acting out...does that seven year old get put away because he's a danger?...lots of areas that have to be thought out and I think that plus a host of other reasons they don't even wanna touch it...and I have an illness that isn't understood either...BUT - I digress to my original intent...why I brought this topic up... I want to cry now because I can't believe how much I've been through - shit I am crying but its an okay cry...it's not a grief cry, not a happy cry, its an emotional cry...like when you see the victim somehow overcome an obstacle...but I haven't overcome yet...but its that kind of cry... Eleven weeks ago, twelve? I've lost count - the time is not what matters to me...my healing is what matters...I was in such distress, grief, pain, so far at the bottom, so low - a low I had never felt before - and a lot of it was him but I also had the overwhelming trigger of 35 years of very very very serious deep supressed issues. I've always known they were there but I also knew that to face them, I would go down exactly the way I did go down. I had a nervous breakdown, there is absolutely no doubt about it...but I did it at home. I could not talk...could not say one fucking word...chatty Cathy on the keyboard but that did not require I open my mouth. You remember me telling all of you I could not speak without crying - could not say the word toilet paper without crying could not utter one fucking sentence without crying and so I sat here weeks mute just to keep from breaking...mute - shocked and traumatized. It took a while to get there...but they say, you don't go into shock right away sometimes...and my timing was textbook and the docs confirmed it. I've never had a breakdown before but there is no other way to describe the bare minimum of functioning I was doing - none. But I could not go to the hospital because there would be no one to care for my son - well there would be but the disruption to him would be terrible - no one that could make sure he stayed at our home to go to his school and so I could not drag him down so I sat here and I suffered with it every fucking day and I didn't want to be drugged cause even half an adavan knocked me on my ass and I knew if I went to psych ER they WOULD keep me, which would mean he'd get placed in Foster care, or end up missing school and it just wouldn't work...and you're just not supposed to have a breakdown at 42 - they say if you make it past 35 and don't have one you're probably good to go. And, if it wasn't for this man, I so think I could have made it out of this realm without having to do allllllll this work I dreaded and feared my whole life.... I'm sucking at breaking up paragraphs right now, so bare with me...I need to get this out. Those 35 years ain't been addressed yet - but like I said I avoided because I didn't want to be where I was 12 or so weeks ago. I couldn't collapse I would not collapse and so what was safe was to hold it in and suppress. And he hurt me bad and that hurt... DUH! but he also brought out all the other stuff but you can't address it all at once so there is this list - and so the 35 years is on QUE but the first item up for addressing is him - go figure...he triggered it all. And you all saw me still trying to be the trooper, positive thinking, stinking thinking all of it and I was trying to be so strong and yes, I meant everything I said becasuse for me the positive was my way of trying to get my head in another place because I needed to function...you remember the days when I said I had to force myself to get to the two blocks for my iced coffee...FORCED Myself every fucking day to get out of this house for ten minutes panic attacks and all and fought like a devil so that I wasn't swallowed up whole. And you remember the rants and the raves, and the lettuce toupee and the curse of 100 locusts and all the insanity...and you all have been where I've been and I've been where you are - the newbies...and the vets do their thing on here. Two days ago...I chose to get off the wagon. I could walk around in saggy pants I guess - but maybe I needed to say my piece - I didn't understand and I did - but I needed the catharsis. At that point, I didn't care if he got it or not. For me, you care that they get it when you hope or expect them to come back - I don't want him, don't need him even though I'm hurt a return, reunion whatever is non-negotiable - MY TERMS. That is why I felt safe. I also know that he's on to his next supply or off in his own world but that the love wasn't there...the best way to say it is whatever the fuck he's doing fact is I'm discarded by him so he's not coming back and I accept that and have come to terms with it and if for some strange reason he tried to come back -he is just so "GRANDIOSE" he stumps the textbooks - MY TERMS say he can't come back - so breaking NC was safe for me but it was what I needed. Since then I have been fine...not where I want to be, but c'mon next on the list is the past 35 years cut a girl some slack. And yea, his bobble head may pop up in my mind but ain't that normal?...We all ruminate about past lovers here and there, don't mean we want them or miss them - just means you thought about them. I want to think about him, but not with the spell of 1000 locusts...not with the lettuce toupee...not without teeth. I don't know how I want to think about him - when he rears his bobble head in the "shadows of my mind" I guess I'll know the thought - and remembering the good times I know will not be an option because they were an illusion and did not exist - so I don't know what my Cerebral Cortex, Medulla, chicken nugget whatever part of my brain that makes memories will make of the memory that is the Narc, but I don't want anger to run though my body, I don't want rage, I don't want any negative emotion...comfortably numb *Pink Floyd might be nice...I wish I smoked weed sometimes...LMAO How do I get there? I happened upon this information that caused discomfort to some. Betteroff cited reading the guys blog and yea, those dudes definitely fit the profile but my purpose for posting was not to torture but to see as best I could to understand all that I've been schooled about these past few weeks...to bring what I know to another dimension? I could describe chicken pox to you but there is another element when you see someone with them. These guys look normal - but something is very not normal. I needed to understand that. But for me being an empath? I can't be at peace with myself labeling him evil, hating him, having poison inside my soul - he didn't beat me. I know some of you have been though much worse abuse. I know his mother suffered at his fathers hands, maybe it's genetic I don't know. I do know I hate that he's done what he's done, I hate how he operates...who he is? I'm not a doctor, none of us are, we can only go by what we see, compare notes all our stories check out but we are NOT professionals - we just have stories that are identical. And that is what is so scary - that had I stayed, had my intuition, God, something not roused me out of my sleepydust -I could have been Jaycee 24 years from now after every ounce of my soul was devoured and to Jaycee, no disrespect and I know you're healing and you sound stronger but we all aknowledge the great pain, harm and destruction that man has caused you and I am so happy that you are starting to come around too. I loved that man with every fiber of my being...but he did not see my pain and what he was doing to me...and I fought as hard as I could and a part of me senses he was trying to keep me safe from him but his ego and his sickness forced him to behave and do what he did how he did it. I remember him saying no, I remember him saying take care of your kid, I heard him talk of voids, it all just matches so perfectly. I felt the darkness...before we got together I had a dream and such anxiety overtook me I remember that dream and it was before we were even a couple...my soul warned me. But I dived in anyway - it may have been the path I had to take for whatever reason...I refuse to lose I will only gain a part of myself that maybe was denied and by default I had to walk this path...he gets no reward for bringing me here but it was as the universe intended? So to go through this, and hate I won't do it for me. I won't hate, I won't wish bad karma, I will release him to the universe, to God, to whatever it is that determines our fates, our destinies. And I'm doing it with the love that I know how to give - detaching but for once I'm doing it for selfish reasons, I'm doing it for me. And I know it may take time to accept, but today is that day that I make this decision...today is my divorce...I relinquish my bondage and choose freedom I do this halfway up the mountain because there is still a climb but when I get to the top, I want to enjoy the view, I want to be cleansed and I want to take that deep breath and savor the fresh air. We point fingers...Narcs, Socipaths, whatever...labels. And we judge...and I hit on judging two weeks ago...it was a process, I've been building up, I've been doing the work - and then I went into my isolation...you guy remember that too. I needed the noise and the static to stop...I needed to be still, I needed neutral energy...not the energy of pain. Somoene like Brie who has the time under her belt can take it in and be okay...those of us just learning to crawl...not so easy. And everyone does it differently. I am not advocating we engage in a lobbyist campaign to save the Narcs...we must save ourselves. But for me, I don't want to lose my tender spirit, I don't want to lose my empathy, I don't want to lose my compassion, I don't want to lose a part of me, I don't want to let him win in an attempt calculated or not at my destruction - I won't let that happen. But, I can't be an "empath" with conditions. It's like being half pregnant. What I can be is a wise one. I can learn the distinction between helping and enabling - I can learn how to distinguish when it is reciprocal or not, I can be aware of when I'm losing myself, I can be confident and secure in knowing that my needs count and are just as important...I can expect to be heard without feeling I am asking for too much. I can be confident that my needs are a priority and it's not selfish to expect they be met and I don't have to feel guilty for having needs or made to feel that I'm needy or there is something wrong with me. I don't have to fear being called insecure - I can draw the line and say goodbye to anyone who tries to denegrate me. I can treat someone like a King, but only if they treat me like a Queen. But to do this, to be free - if I am going to detach from illusion, just like I can no longer believe in fairy tales, I can't believe in monsters either. In detaching with love for me, all that I am surrounded by, my universe which he happens to be a part of in a distant place but still a part of it...I have to see him for what he is and in all my reading... Harmful, dangerous, damaging, sick, the list could go on...but medically, the evidence suggests there could be an actual tangible, biological reason for him being those things that are out of his and my control...and so I grieve for what Jen earlier said was once a glimmer of his true self and the fact that he will never be able to cling to it for long. Why see him as the monster? He is just as much a victim...he may not be able to see the harm he's done, or maybe part of the sickness allows him to enjoy it. Better off said it, we are not animals...exactly! We are not animals which means despite what he may be because I'm not a professional to say for sure, and I have no photos of the alleged chicken nuggets we joke about, I'm pretty sure he is what we think he is...so what is the solution? The final justice? Euthanasia?...In anger we might think it's a great solution but it's not...look at all the debates about abortion...save the babies, save the babies...some of those Fetus' are sociopaths...uh huh...it a circle...at some point you decide to step out of the loop...I need out of this loop and into a different circle, a different approach, a different way of seeing things...it will take time. My accepting at this moment is only achieved my ME seeing this as a situation where a person cannnot for a biological/medical reason act the way most humans do because he cannot feel, does not know how to feel, or was so traumatized he cannot make that connection - whateverthefuck...not my job to ruminate over any longer...the final rumination is he is sick and can't be helped and was and will always be harmful to me, but he can go in peace because his departure in peace allows me my freedom... And please pray for me that I stay at this level until it is time to climb a bit further - I'm okay right here for this moment and it is the most peace I've felt since May...I grieved and yea I remember...you go up and down...but I've just about had enough of the up and down... I want to do what the lady who got me going on this post Miss Betty 2020 said - I want to move forward. The Narc used to demand I moved forward - but he wanted it instantly on his terms because my grieving did not allow me to meet HIS needs - that could not be but we know why he wanted that...but I got me back...I had to fight, I crawled, it brought me to my knees...but I want to move forward... Forward - I don't want to know or to continue to question or analize on a regular basis why he did what he did, what he meant, I don't want to remember some stupidity, some lie, some bad thing he did...who he's with or not with...it does me no good. It is time to rebuild. Hugs and love to you all. And no I'm not leaving but I can't always do what the vets do yet, so I hope you understand my lack of response is not judging...I've been there - we all stand naked with eachother but for me, with the PTSD...sometimes it triggers me...so I cant. And Betteroff - if you're here and you got triggered - I understand...I really do. It will be okay...we are all going to get there.
Dec 2 - 10AM (Reply to #84)
Susan32
Susan32's picture

Narc demanding me to move forward...

Whenever I tried to get the ex-Psych professor to apologize or show some sort of remorse, he'd tell me I was fixated on the past and I was supposed to "move forward." When I decided to move forward by congratulating him on being engaged... he raged. I'd try to force him into apology. I'd dangle the NS so temptingly, saying "I'd go back to admiring you like I once did if you apologized." I'd appeal to his vanity. I'd appeal to his self-image. He still would NOT apologize. His stock response whenever I demanded an apology and say he owed me for all the anguish and emotional pain he caused... was "You acted inappropriately." The last words I heard from him were "You acted inappropriately." No sense of responsibility. But blaming, blaming. When I congratulated him on finding companionship with the OW, telling him I was GLAD he had found someone, he accused me of "imposing" on him and "violating" him. I told him I was moving on and getting closure on MY terms. He would have NO say on how I got closure. I told him I was getting closure... MY way or the highway. Sometimes it seems the only way to "get back" at Narcs is to act in a narcissistic way as a form of self-protection. Bullies really don't know how to respond when others act in a self-centered way.
Dec 1 - 7PM (Reply to #77)
betty2020
betty2020's picture

Yes Michele you are

Yes Michele you are absolutely right! It gets in the grey area of human rights. But my philosophy is this: If a individual is able to make solid decisions and choices for the benefit of ones self; That is, if they can make the choice to eat, sleep, exercise, earn income, educate themselves, drive an automobile, buy and automobile, read a book, write a book, take a vacation, purchase a weapon, buy real estate, discuss politics, discuss religion, have a wife, have a intimate relationship, have children, go to church, own a business, manage a business,,, i think you get the point. Then they are competent enough in my book to be held accountable for the damage and destruction that they cause to others by their destructive behavior. It is not that they do not understand that what they are doing is wrong. They have the cognitive ability to determine what is right and wrong for themselves Right? Therefore the ability to recognize what is right and wrong for others. This is non debatable in my book. They completely understand and are aware that their actions harm others. They just do not care. Now this is where the controversy gets ugly. If they had the ability to care would they do what they do? Maybe or maybe not. This point is irrelevant to me because they are capable of taking care of themselves and knowing what is in the best interest of themselves and therefore understand what is in the best interest of others, it then becomes a choice. People with a true debilitating mental illness do not have the power of choice. They do not have the ability to make sound decisions. There judgment is impaired. But this is not the PD. This is not a lack of judgment on their part. This is a lack of concern, consideration and empathy for other humans. The result leading to poor behavioral decisions based on selfishness. This is a choice they make. It is a conscious choice. They have the ability to make a different choice but they do not want to because it may not yield them the most beneficial results for themselves. This is not socitys problem. It is their problem. You become accountable the minute your past behavior and actions prove that you have loved yourself enough to make sure you provide for yourself and nurture yourself. I think we can all agree that this best decribes the PD right? Once you know this, you know that others have importance too. If you choose to ignore it and step on people to get what you want in life, its a cognitive choice period, a wrong one but you are not exonerated because you chose wrong, your held accountable for your actions. But for them, it is as much a choice to be good to human kind as it is to be destructive. Same as it is a choice for us to remain in the relationship with them or walk away for good. If they do not want to conform to social norms then let them suffer the consequence for their actions. only one way to go...Forward (tm?)

only one way to go...Forward (tm?)

Dec 2 - 4AM (Reply to #80)
blueeyes
blueeyes's picture

Betty,

First, hope your doing well, it's been a while :) Second, "That is, if they can make the choice to eat, sleep, exercise, earn income, educate themselves, drive an automobile, buy and automobile, read a book, write a book, take a vacation, purchase a weapon, buy real estate, discuss politics, discuss religion, have a wife, have a intimate relationship, have children, go to church, own a business, manage a business,,, i think you get the point" LOL, no lie here Betty, my husband can do "one" out of the 19 things listed here. He may really need. I think he will die without a partner (mother). It's really crazy stuff to learn about.
Dec 2 - 9AM (Reply to #83)
Susan32
Susan32's picture

Well, certainly NOT writing a book...LOL...

The ex-Psych professor can do a few of those things. Sleeping and exercise... not so much. I've read here of Ns/Ps who physically improve themselves before the OW moves in with them... and when the OW came all the way from LA, he was STILL paunchy! He would've given a whole new meaning to Biggest Loser. Yikes... I didn't tell the OW how 4 years earlier he was several pounds lighter... and could get away with baring his chest in the coffee shop. "Have a wife"-Well, don't know if that lasted or not. Not worth the time. "Have children"-But his parents had to move in with him to raise them. "Read a book"-Okay, something he is actually good at. He had no real hobbies other than reading Tolstoy (and confusing it with real life) He liked BIG books like "War and Peace" and "Gravity's Rainbow." "Discuss politics, discuss religion"- My ex-Narc boss was better at these. So is my Narc grandmother. Discussions with the ex-P were... bizarre. He had a difficult time with class discussions. I tried talking to him about his favorite subject, Wittgenstein, and got ZERO guidance from the self-proclaimed expert. He was incapable of a philosophical discussion. When he taught seminar with a fellow professor, he'd be the one silent for most of the time. "Write a book"-He TALKED about writing a book. Hasn't accomplished it in the past decade. He talked about writing a book 14 years ago. It's never happened.
Dec 2 - 9AM (Reply to #81)
admin
admin's picture

Oh believe me blueeyes. He

Oh believe me blueeyes. He can do all of those things and then some. He just doesn't want to. If someone else will do it for him, what is the incentive? Again he has made another choice in the wrong direction. These people are not, NOT, mentally handicap. They will do as all good PDs do. Use, abuse and throw away. He is just playing the role of what he is, a "narc". But we on the other hand are no longer playing the role of what we once were, "doormat". We have a lot to be grateful for today.... :) Doing great, thanks Blueeyes... xoxo
Dec 2 - 9AM (Reply to #82)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Key Word for Today

Playing a role... Thanks Betty!
Dec 1 - 8PM (Reply to #78)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Betty...

You map this out beautifully. In my situation...the reason why I am where I'm at is because he just seems sick... He talked about voids in the end - during the relationship I never knew about it... I don't feel sorry for him I feel like let him drown fall whatever, I just won't be here licking my lips rubbing my hands and waiting for it to happen. His father is a fucking animal If anyone is a candidate he is...his brain had to become a chicken finger by age 3 in order to survive...had to happen I was naieve to street life on this level Hindsight is 2020 This man is not one that fits the description of being able to take care of himself BUT he knows how to live off of other parasitcally? It's all he can do He never had a shot Mine is sick - mine is a predator - mine has a chicken nugget brain - mine is dangerous - mine calculates - mine has no conscious - mine is an animal in a human body...he can charm the shit out of you but it is a covering of an empty shell A freak of nature a bad seed...and it only took one night and I have never seen insanity or stared it dead in the eye...he's a human clone... And neither one of us can help it...that's the sad part Frankenstein
Dec 2 - 9AM (Reply to #79)
admin
admin's picture

Oh honey please please

Oh honey please please please understand that although he has done everything under his power to make you believe he can not take care of himself, he can. This is just a tactic to make you feel responsible to take care of him. (past tense). They are capable. They dont what you to know about this though. If you did would you run to the rescue? No, there would be no need. Its simply a game. He is no more handicap than my 16 y/o with his new girlfriend. (which im questioning now btw). If anyone knows about 16 y/o boys you know what im talking about. Their lazy. If mommy will do it for them, they will milk it for all that it is worth. Same principal. All of those things that you listed as "mine" are unfortunately everyone elses on the board here. Your in the right place. Keep processing the information as it comes in, anger, pity, forgiveness, anger etc.... We call this moving forward. :)
Dec 1 - 4PM (Reply to #73)
better off
better off's picture

Let me encourage you..

Hi Michele, let me try to encourage you* for a sec. ;) (Italics intended for humor...yes? or no, I messed up again? lol) First of all, I actually was not triggered, and I left because I had to go to work. I was seriously only concerned about other empathetic people possibly getting confused and/or beating themselves up for being unempathetic, because that's what empaths do. Blame ourselves a lot. I didn't word things right, and my italics earlier today were truly only meant to distinguish the "you" from the "we." Upon reflection, I realize it sounded to you like I was pointing my finger at you, going, look at you, Michele. And I really didn't mean it like that at all. So I'm sorry that I ticked you off; I understand. However my tone seemed to the reader, I was calm and not feeling triggered, and I was just stating some of the conclusions that I have come to over time. So the encouragement part is this... I have felt all the things you posted above, about not losing my tender spirit and not hating, and conversely I have felt a lot of hate too! It's a very confusing process. But what I can tell you is that I don't really hate him now... or forgive him either particularly... I just don't care. I no longer worry about how I feel about him, or what it means about me, because he doesn't matter. I do find the whole PD/sociopathy argument interesting, and it will always be the puzzle that people have wanted to solve for millenia. But as far as he goes, I don't care. It's irrelevant now. Right now I'm sure it's hard to fathom ever feeling this way. But it will temper itself eventually.