ExN contacting me again asking for his personal papers - should I ignore or just send?

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#1 Jan 11 - 7AM

Ava

ExN contacting me again asking for his personal papers - should I ignore or just send?

Ahhhh. I posted on this a couple of months ago when exN first asked me for this - its his birth cert. he wants Y'all gave me some great advice & told me to ignore him. I did & it didn't bother me.
Now he's contacted me again with a written message saying "Hi, sorry to be a pain in the ass n all that, but by any chance have you come across my birth cert? Under huge pressure at the mo."
Main points of situation are:
Why do I have his personal papers? Because after I confronted him when I found out he was cheating & had been for 3 months - I dared to be upset & wanted to talk - he lied, cried, begged forgiveness, made all sorts of promises and then poof, disappeared. After 5 years living together he walked out next day to go to work & I've never seen him again. And he left ALL his possessions in my house. Also left over $15,000 of personal debt to me, a pile of his bills that I ended up having to go to court for. Oh and heartbroken, entirely head-wrecked me. But that, of course, is beside the point.... Ha.
I tried for months to get him to collect his crap. Even offered to ship it to him. He'd agree then avoid & come up with excuses. After 6 months I gave up & started giving it to goodwill & the trash bin.
I DO still have his personal papers though - just seemed wrong to throw them out. Yet.
Why does he need his birth cert? When he left me he moved straight in with the woman he'd been cheating on me with; 6 months later they got engaged. He is living in the country illegally - came here on a work visa that expired early last year. He wants her to sponsor him & get married so he can stay & he needs his birth cert for that.
Why can't he get another copy? Not known....
So. Can I please ask for some advice?
Should I just keep ignoring him or should I just send it to him?
Pros for ignore - he's a narc & borderline. I owe him nothing. He owes me a lot of money & caused me a lot of headache & heartache & discarded me like a used tissue. And seriously? I should help him get married to OW & all because he couldn't bother his ass to end relationship with me like a normal adult & actually have The Conversation & then divide belongings and move on?
And even the wording of that damn message annoys me - flippant, ingenuine & self-entitled.
Pros for send - I don't feel it right now but I don't want to start feeling guilty or like I'm being petty & unfair....[I'm worried that I might start feeling that]. And maybe I'll erase one of his last "reasons" for contacting me if i just send it to him....?
I'm leaning towards ignoring.... but just not 100% sure.
Does anyone have any advice or thoughts they could possibly help me with?
Thank you so much, Ava xxx

#2 Jan 19 - 10AM

booboo35

This is going to sound like

This is going to sound like i am stooping to his level of behaviour, but everything of my ex Narcs that was left in my house , I ripped up or threw out, And i got great pleasure, as well out of doing it, I went full on NC and had the police round to my house as he was harrasing me, They warned him under the harrasment act, It was so funny as in the morning he posted a little note through my door with his phone number on to tell me to get in contact with the sleaze ball, He has not any other means of contacting me as i had my phone numbers all changed, As soon as he posted that note and i found it i phoned the police they came round pretty quickly, And they rang his number! My ex narc must have thought it was going to be me bowing down to the king as i cant live with out him!!! ( LOL NOT) Well anyway the police said is this Jx He replied yes who the hells this?? The policeman who was really nice explained we know what has been going on and your stalking and harrasing this lady, We know all the history and if it doesnt stop you will be arrested, My ex N has been in prison before for his behaviour towards me, I would have loved to be in that room when he was there , His face must have dropped, Anyway am on my 27th day of NC, And am having my good and bad days, I can understand why you have to go on full on NC as it stops them from abusing you anymore, I am slowly starting to get my sanity back as well. I hope all of yous can remain in NC with your ex Narcs they dont deserve one breath or thought from us there all abusing low life scum xxxxx

STAY STRONG!! XX

#3 Jan 12 - 9AM

blueeyes

Give it back

To keep it and make him file shows that you wanna get to him. Ava, you do NOT Want him thinking this! he will get happy. We want you happy not him honey. You know what I call him...

#4 Jan 16 - 6AM (Reply to #33)

Ava

Such a good point blueeyes

Such a damn good point - I hadn't really even thought of that. And you're very right, I do NOT want him thinking this. Aargh. And hell yeh, I sure do know what you call him. And now I'm grinning again! How do you do it! :) Ava xxxo

Ava

#5 Jan 11 - 5PM

Briseis

Send it and every single

Send it and every single thing that even remotely belongs to him. That is called "saving yourself". Get that man out of your hair :)

#6 Jan 19 - 8AM (Reply to #29)

blueeyes

Ava??

Did you do what Briseis said here? Did you save yourself? :) I was thinking of you and wondered if you signed up on the new site? If not, please come because I miss discussing our bags of you know what :) http://www.allaboutrecoverynetwork.com/ I hope to connect over there. It's so awesome to connect on the new site.. Thinking of you...

#7 Jan 19 - 8AM (Reply to #30)

Ava

Blueeyes xx

How do you do it? Every time you make me smile & bring tears to my eyes [nice tears] at the same time :) You're a sweetheart. I miss being here & talking with you - especially about our bags of you know what!! My stupidy internet connection has been playing up recently & it keeps crashing & kicking me out. Sigh. But fingers crossed I've been told it will improve soon :) I'm trying to do what Briseis said - I think I'm on the way....Hopefully....{?!] I've decided to do a thorough cleanse of everything in my house & pack up those documents of exN's & post them to his family - I've managed to track down a family address; he always said he was hardly ever in contact with them but too bad, the documents can go to them & they all can sort it out. I've made a promise to myself to do this now - and not keep putting it all off like I have been doing! :) I haven't signed up to the new site yet - I've gotta figure out how to do that & I've been a bit challenged by New Things lately! That's a bit pathetic of me isn't it?! I really do want to come on board there though, think I just need to bite the bullet...! :) How are you going? Thinking of you & sending big hugs & smiles :) xxxoo Thank you for thinking of me & your message - you've made my day Ava xxxo

Ava

#8 Jan 19 - 1PM (Reply to #31)

blueeyes

Ava

You will get to the new site when your ready. I worry about what's up with you, the curse of having Empathy. Maybe it's just that I feel your pain? I have been there and. I hate to see anyone there. It's probably as simple as that. Show that BAG that you don't care, and ship all items off to his family. I had both good and bad times throwing his stuff away.

#9 Jan 11 - 4PM

michele115 (not verified)

I'd send them certified mail

simple note with parcel number on it make a copy... This is to confirm forwarding of the documents you requested. Sincerely, Ewa

#10 Jan 12 - 7AM (Reply to #23)

Ava

Michele

That's it isn't it? Simple, straight, rational & more than fair. And gets rid of the documents & no guilt for me. Sigh. This all has really made me realise there's still hooks. And bad ones. Damn it. Thank you Michele, fingers crossed I can make SOME action on this! Ava xx

Ava

#11 Jan 15 - 4PM (Reply to #26)

Indigo

Hi Ava. I'm sure you're

Hi Ava. I'm sure you're aware that you cannot keep documents which are legally his and that he has asked for. However, 1. email him that you do not want to see him under any circumstances and to have someone else call you about when that person (not the N) will collect his papers and anything else that is his. That way you'll have proof that the papers are returned to him. Return everything that is his to him with some proof that you have done so - ie a third person who signs a list of items being picked up for return to him. You obviously keep a copy of the list. 2. If you can, and you have a trusted intermediary, give the item(s) to that person (you keep a copy with the delivery person's acknowledgement of items to be delivered) and have somebody that you trust take him the items and keep a copy of the list yourself (ie 3 copies, one for you, one for the N, one for the delivery intermediary. If he has any questions from this point on he can call his lawyer. You will have the list that it has been returned, complete with date, time etc. Protect yourself always. Hope this helps

#12 Jan 16 - 7AM (Reply to #27)

Ava

Hiya Indigo, you're very right & its a very important point

and the importance of these documents has been what has led to me putting them in safe-keeping. Thing is, one of the main problems I've had with the exN in this situation is that I've had absolutely no way of being able to return things to him. The only contact information I have for him is a cell phone [that is actually registered to someone else]. He had avoided & refused giving me any type of postal address for him & there are no remaining mutual acquaintances - when he left me, he left his job, his friends & left town & has not been in contact with anybody from that part of his life. There are 2 debt-collectors looking for him, sheriffs department, tax department & immigration department. For the last year he's periodically raised his head, entered into communication with me re. return of property etc & then disappeared without giving me any avenue with which to do it. And I keep thinking "This time he'll actually tell me where I can send things or he'll arrange to pick it up & actually do it." My post last week was pre-empting that & I went on that inner dialogue of what do I actually want to do here - and I'm kicking myself a little for it. As it turns out though, I replied saying I'd send it all back, let me know where....and I haven't heard a pip back. I think I'm going to try to track down his family somehow & send it all to them. I don't want this hanging over my head any longer - and especially, as you say, these are official documents & I just want shut of them. Thank you for your advice - I think if I do find any family I can send his stuff to I'll make sure I've covered myself by sending them registered mail so there will be proof I have returned them. As you say, I have to be careful on this. Thanks again! :) Ava xxxo

Ava

#13 Jan 12 - 8AM (Reply to #24)

michele115 (not verified)

Ava

Exatly... And sorry I got your name confused... This will give him NO excuse to contact you again and yes, by default diminishes any guilt. All the best... *remember to put the parcel number on your letter...

#14 Jan 13 - 8AM (Reply to #25)

Ava

Hi Michele :)

Ah I didn't even notice re. the name :) Thank you again for your very good advice. NO excuse to contact me sounds like a grand situation. I hadn't realised how much. And oh yes, very good idea re. parcel number :) Hope you're doing well :) Ava xx

Ava

#15 Jan 11 - 4PM

Disillusionedx2

Send

When N raged@me the first time and decided I was too "difficult" to put up with ,lol, difficult=I figured out who/what he was, was using my cell phone talking to 1000 different women at my expense of course but I digress, he had some cash here in my safe. I wanted oh so badly to set it on fire, hand it out on the streets; anything but give it to him even though he owed me all of it and still does! Ultimately, I decided to return it to him, because that's who I am, it wasn't much couple thousand but it wasn't mine to keep, at least that's how I looked at it, I did torture the cry baby for being so stupid as to rage and name call when you have something to lose, cash, with no proof it was his, I could have walked with it, I took my sweet time returning it which had him crying everyday until I decided to give it to him, I also had purchased him some things, I told him it would be an exchange, mine things for the $ my purchases were way more than the measly 2 grand, he agreed to it initially, didn't go through with it, it was well worth it to get rid of him anyway, it didn't stop him, he came around hovering not even a week later, just dumb, send it, and close the chapter, you will be better off in the end. stay~striving

stay~strong

#16 Jan 13 - 8AM (Reply to #21)

Ava

Disillusionedx2

I am so impressed by your actions re. the money N left - shows what a truly generous & decent person you are and SUCH strength of character & being able to stick with who you are. I so wish I had your strength right now. I do like how you describe your N's cause for rage / you being too "difficult" - really meaning you figured out what he was. Its so true isn't it - I was told I was "too hard to make happy" when I confronted / exposed him. Cannot believe your N was using YOUR cell phone to talk to thousand other women. Thank you so much for your response - your strength of character is extremely inspiring & I can feel your strength humming through your words. I'm starting to feel myself climbing up a bit! Thank you! :) Ava xxo

Ava

#17 Jan 11 - 3PM

momoya

grrrr

I would not be so nice, but we have different Narc's. He wouldn't call me up and ask me for anything or send me an email and expect me to not bite his head off, much less show up anywhere NEAR my property because I would become a mad woman and want to rip his eyes out...but that's just me. I would tell him that he had the chance to get his papers, and he didn't now they are gone. Done.

momoya

#18 Jan 14 - 6PM (Reply to #19)

Ava

Momoya

Ah I wish I had your guts & strength! I DO want to rip my narc's eyes out, and I've wanted to many many times. And I've effectively told him so. But then I'd turn chicken, feel bad & guilty, and he'd cry & disarm me & I'd lose my resolve. And this happened in this situation before - I gave him deadlines for how long he would have the opportunity to collect his stuff. I told him I'd be throwing it all out in x days etc. But he never did anything & hell, neither did I. I have to be stronger about this. I have to keep my own promises to myself. He did have his chance to get his papers so long ago & I need to finish this stupid thing. I'm feeling a bolt of anger & energy reading your post & your words. I really am. Thank you for sharing with me, for showing me your strength & giving me that boost. I AM going to finish this. Hope you're doing well :) Thank you so much!! Ava xxxo

Ava

#19 Jan 11 - 10AM

Journey

First Instinct

Hi Ava, my first instinct is to send them and be done with it. It sounds like you have gotten rid of everything else at this point except the papers. I understand what you say about it being the last of his things and final tie to him - all the more reason to do it IMO. For your own peace of mind, I think ridding yourself of the papers will lift the last load off of your shoulders and he will have no legitimate reason to contact you again. Ultimately, that would be best for you... right? I don't see it as a weakness for you to send them at this point, but more a declaration that you are done with the whole mess. And, do you really want to come across them time and again down the road? Just having them in your living space creates energy that sucks yours away from you and back to him. my 2 cents. Journey on...

Journey on...

#20 Jan 12 - 8AM (Reply to #17)

Ava

Journey

Ah Journey, your 2 cents are gold. It may sound entirely ridiculous but all the points you made are all the BIG ones I just shut my eyes & bypassed in this situation. I went straight to Ok What Should I Do - without really realising that I should not still be in this position of having anything to think what I should do about. I didn't realise how strong & deep the hooks I still have in me are. I DO have to get rid of everything. I really DO. I had it all in a box that I'd put away & because i hadn't thought about it for ages, I thought the hooks were diminishing. But this situation & the fact that I've been triggered badly - well big wake up call that the hooks haven't diminished. You're right - it will lift the last load off my shoulders, it is a tie that NEEDS to be cut. But I just went straight into thinking on the details of what my actions should be. Thank you so much for showing me what is really at the heart of this issue for me. And I really like your thoughts that sending it would be a declaration that I'm Done. And I'm truly starting to realise how correct you are in that just having any of his possessions in my environment is something that sucks my energy, sends it to him & provides him with a direct link in. Peace of mind - I'm so looking forward to that someday & your advice that ridding myself of anything related to him is a great next step :) Thank you so much! Ava xxx

Ava

#21 Jan 11 - 9AM

betty2020

My thoughts on this are that

My thoughts on this are that if you send him the BC he will just continue to contact you at his leisure when he feels he wants to connect and needs your supply. As long as he knows that you have one single item that belongs to him in your possession, he will make the attempt to use this as his means of contact. This may even be the reason he never picked up his belongings to begin with. Even if it is 5 years down the road, he knows you got his things and could come back. He could show up at your door step and this gives him the goods to do so in his mind. You need to put an end to it now. Nip it in the bud. If it were me, I would not send him the BC. It sounds as if you have more than just this one item of his. If i understand this correctly, he is living in another country. It is not your responsibility to ship his items or make sure he has his personal belongings back. This is something he should have done himself when he had the opportunity to do so. I would draft one short and precise email/memo. It would sound something to this nature; Dear Mr Narc, I respectfully asked for you to remove all of your personal belongings from my residence last [give the date of your request]. I made several attempts for you to pick up your items however, you declined to do so and therefore i need to inform you that on [give the date of removal] all items that you left were officially removed and transferred to the local city dump. I no longer have anything in my position that belongs to you and therefore respectfully request that you do not contact me regarding this or any other matter in the future. Regards Do not tell him this in person or by way of phone. Only a letter or email. Once you draft this, and before you send it, block all means of contact. Change your email and phone if you must. And one last and final important element that must be done. Pack up EVERYTHING you have in your possession and transfer it to the local dump. Get everything that has anything to do with this person completely out of your home for good. After you have done all this, send the email and close this email account. Everyone knows that i am not an advocate of contact in any way shape or form. In the case where you have multiple items that belong to the N and no realistic means of returning them, you need to remove the items permanently and make yourself very clear to them that these items are no longer in your possession, as this is leaving the door open for him. You never ever ever want to leave the door open with these people. You have to slam it shut, Nail it and bolt it tight or you are putting yourself at risk for future harm. Whether you choose to give it back or not is really not the issue here. The issue is that you have something of his that keeps this connection and door open. This is what you must sever completely. This is not about him, his wants, desires, wishes. This is about what is in the best interest of you and your own safety. And having anything that belongs to them puts you at risk. xoxo Betty only one way to go...Forward (tm?)

only one way to go...Forward (tm?)

#22 Jan 12 - 8AM (Reply to #15)

Ava

Betty

Wow. And the Wake Up begins :) Thank you Betty for your marvellous response. Its starting to sink in. I've been missing the point altogether & got caught back in that loop of What Should I Do In This Interaction With Narc? I was stuck there for months & then went NC & I've just drawn myself right back there again. Whether I send his birth cert, don't send it, eat it or wear it as a hat - that's not the central issue. The issue is that I'm STILL thinking about these things - the door still IS open, in a physical manner because I still have his possessions & in an emotional / psychological manner because I can still be triggered into thinking about what to do with his possessions. I've still so much to learn - I feel like sometimes I've learnt a lot in my head but I still need to learn it in my heart....if that makes any sense. I hadn't thought about his papers for a long time, boxed them away in the Deal With Later category. And because I hadn't thought about them, I thought that hook was losing its power. But it hasn't. And if this isn't a big fat sign of that then I don't know what would be - and thank you SO much for pointing that out. I was not seeing the forest for the trees I guess - dived straight into What Should I Do without even realising that is NOT an internal conversation I should still be in the position to be having. You're very right - I need this stuff GONE. Hidden in a box doesn't work [gee & aint that surprising Ava!!]. I'm also starting to think that you're right re. he's using it as a means of contact & that he doesn't actually NEED the copy I have, doesn't actually need literal HELP on this. And damn if that old internal helper bee didn't just get sparked up before anything else. He's played this game so many times with his possessions - saying he'd pick them up & then some drama happens and he can't; agreeing for me to ship them but then not giving me an address....and round & round we go. And even after that all, I'm STILL falling for it. Sigh. I need his stuff gone & I must say, I do quite like your suggestion of the local dump. This door needs shutting and I need to do it MY way, not worry about what I SHOULD do for him. I'm going to keep trying to tell myself this should be about me & my best interests. And NAIL that door shut. Thank you so much for shining a huge light on the real heart of this; showing me truly what the issue is & what I need to be focussing on to move forward. Thank you :) Ava xxx

Ava

#23 Jan 11 - 7PM (Reply to #10)

agnesmurphy17

I agree, sorta

I think Betty has some very good advice here. However, if my N found out that I threw anything of his out -- he'd be ballistic. A birth certificate is easily replaced. On line & a small fee. You write he asked once before for this document & then disappeared. I think this is a ploy to engage you. I would ignore him entirely. And change all e-mails & phone numbers. Now, my N had another tactic about possessions & owed money. The woman who replaced me ran out in the middle of the night, got an RO, but left all her possessions in his house (used to be mine too). Well, he thought she owed him about $1,200 for some vacation they recently undertook. He refused to let her get her possessions until she paid the money owed him. In addition, he used the $1,000 in concert tickets she purchased to take other women out on dates. In the end, there was no exchange of cash for her possessions. Eventually, she got her stuff but in a much damaged condition & certain objects simply missing. Why anybody would feel guilty after the way these men treat women is beyond me. And after the way he treated you in particular. I'd ignore him. Absolutely NC. Let him go on line & replace his documents. How much have you had to replace? How much debt to settle? How much money lost? How much is irreplaceable? How much are your emotions worth? How much emotional damage did you do to him? Not much. Sounds like he recovered quickly & found a new love immediately. Delete him.

#24 Jan 14 - 7PM (Reply to #14)

Ava

agnesmurphy

You've made a helluva good point - a birth cert is easily replaced. I've actually now checked into it - took all of 5 minutes on Google - & he can get a certified copy from Registry in his home town mailed out to him anywhere in the world within a week for under $20. He doesn't NEED the copy that he left in my house & he's not in any legitimate trouble because of that. I'm thinking you're very right that it is & was a ploy to engage me - I suspected it a little but had the blinkers on STILL because it was encased in that Call For Help. And I NEED to get 100% smart & strong on this - unfortunately I can't change all numbers because of my business - at least I can change them but I have to be "find-able" for my clients & prospective clients so narc would always be able to track some contact details down for me if he so wanted to, as long as I stay in the profession I'm in. Your exN sounds like a real nasty piece of work - the more I read about things he did, especially all he did to you, my jaw still drops. Thank you so much for reminding me of the reality of my situation & that in many ways it is ridiculous to feel guilt. I know it may sound silly but the questions you asked at the end - how much have I had to replace? how much lost? and how much are my emotions worth? - these are things I need to keep in my mind & you reminding me has helped SO much. Sometimes I just seem to forget. I read other people's stories and feel outraged at what they've been through, what they've been put through, yet I still sometimes look at my own situation and think I'm over-reacting, it wasn't that bad and I probably brought a lot on myself. And exN was adept at guilt manipulation - that was his greatest tool & became almost the only reason I never left him [i.e. he "needed" me, he'd "die" without me & if I loved him or was a "good person" I'd help him / be there for him]. Blah. I tried to leave him so many times & he'd pull me back in with guilt & control. I've been trying to deal with the post-narc mess in ways that won't make me feel any more guilt. And in many ways I'm so grateful that HE left - the D&D was utter hell but I've no guilt over it, no feeling that I abandoned him & no doubts. Obviously though, the capacity for guilt is still there, he knows it & is tapping into it. And I HAVE to work on that. He sure did move on quickly & he sure as shit didn't feel any guilt. For anything. Thank you for reminding me. Seriously - I'm copying your questions down in my journal to ask myself, remind myself, next time I ever start feeling doubt or guilt about how "mean" I've been by not continuing to help him in his new life. Thank you so much!! :) Ava xxxo

Ava

#25 Jan 12 - 10AM (Reply to #11)

betty2020

I will further explain what

I will further explain what i mean. The real issue with what is happening here is that Ava has personal possessions that belong to this man. He is not in the united states and I would guess that it would cost a small fortune to ship "all" his items. Although this is really not her responsibility anyway, these items (ALL) must be removed from her possession regardless. In a situation like this, it is a isolated circumstance. She has no means of getting this person his items. These items keep the door open to future contact "IF" the Cluster B knows she is holding them. Any thing we have of theirs leaves the door open for them in their demented brains to connect with us in the future. We need to make the message loud and clear that their is no more open door. Period, for any reason and this includes holding on to their property. If you can achieve this by having the personal property delivered to a family member or the cluster B without having contact, then do so. If this is not possible then you have to take the next step towards removal. This is never to be used as an act of revenge. This is only about protecting yourself. And if you hold one piece of personal property that belongs to them, you are fair game. This is not a negotiable situation. There is no bargaining. No alternate solution other than making it loud and clear that you do not have anything in you possession that belongs to them, therefore this can not be used as a means of future contact. No one wants to go head to head with the Beast. No one wants to entice a riot. But, your first priority should always be to protect yourself from future harm. If you hold items that belong to them, you are putting your recovery at risk. If you have made all attempts in the past to give them back their goods and they refuse, then it is very obvious that they are using this as a means to return at a later date. If there is a viable solution to returning all the items without contact then so be it, however, if there is not, then you have to take other more drastic measures. Either or, the bottom line is that it must be done and that is reality of this. I dont want anyone to feel that this is a revenge ploy or tactic. We should never play into that game, But we do have to take back the control of our own lives. This is not about pleasing them, coddling or bowing down because your afraid they may be angry. If you have made all attempts to do the "right" thing by returning the items and have had no success then you should never feel as if your actions are cruel or unjust. Lets not forget what were dealing with here. A disordered individual that has created a lot of damage and will return to do more if you dont take the precautions to protect yourself. Never use a Cluster Bs property to hold something over their heads. Your playing with fire and will get burned. If they owe you money, consider it a donation to the "Personality Disorder Foundation". Write it off in your head and move on. The days of donating are over for this cause and that includes a lifetime of free storage for personal property. So this is better explanation of a viable game plan: Option A: Have a family member or friend return all the personal property to the Cluster B by means of personally delivering it to their home or one of their family/friends home immediately. No hesitation, just act. Make sure beyond all doubt that the message is deliver along with the goods that you no longer have one item in your possession that belongs to them. Never do this yourself, have a friend or family member take this on for you. Option B: If they are not responding to your request to retun the items, contact a friend or family member and ask them to make an attempt at securing a date and time for drop off. Do not have any direct interchange of dialogue with the Cluster B. Never attempt to do this yourself, its far to dangerous. Find a friend OR ask on of us to make this contact. I would be more than happy to assist with this if needed. Set the date and time, set the means of transport and follow through. Option C: Last resort. If they are ignoring your request after multiple attempts, If they have left the area, if they have no one in the area to drop the items off to, if they are flat out just refusing to corporate after you have made more than one attempt at returning the items and issued warning that they will be remove, take everything and dump it off at the local shelter, dump or where ever you see fit. Get notice to them that everything has been removed and there is no need for future contact. You can issue a warning with a deadline if you feel it would worth another try. If you do, make it a short deadline, say 48 hours and if your still ignored then no need to go any further with giving them a chance to retrieve their items. AND if you have made multiple attempts, as Ava has, and you can not get them to comply, follow through with the plan of removal. This is a game he is playing. And you should never partake in the game and give them the upper hand once you are free and No Contact. You must be strong and not let fear stand in your way. Fear is what held you hostage in the past, but today is different. You must stand up and fight for yourself and your recovery. Today is only about yourself and what is in the best interest of your safety and sanity. Close that door! Bolt it, lock it, nail it shut for good. xoxo Betty only one way to go...Forward (tm?)

only one way to go...Forward (tm?)

#26 Jan 16 - 9AM (Reply to #13)

Indigo

Excellent point Betty. Using

Excellent point Betty. Using that important third party exposes any N abuse. BTW I like your using the Cluster B category too Whoo Hooo!! I know that many courier companies will arrange for billing to the N person. He can make the arrangements with them (at his expense). I would recommend giving the N (via email from a third party) a date by which he must make arrangements, otherwise, (and in accordance with local laws) they will be considered as abandoned goods and disposed of. Be fairly generous with this time committment (ie 2 months??) but firm. And, important to have that 3rd person document and sign a copy of the items shipped in case the N disputes (and they usually do). Pictures would be nice too. Actually, this is the Ns problem so punt the ball back in his court. Of course, this is assuming there is no family/friend that can pick up the items he has abandoned when he left. Exposure of manipulation is the nemesis of Ns. Therefore, a third party comes in real handy. Be strong

#27 Jan 12 - 10AM (Reply to #12)

Susan32

This explains a lot...

This explains why the ex-Psych professor didn't like going to his mail box at work, or receiving gifts. With the latter, he'd have to show gratitude, and the former- it was outside of his control. (I can't control the junk mail either- big whoop) If I had given him something I wanted back, it would be something to fight over. He'd want the fight. He relished fights over property. He'd fantasize about suing me because he made 14 copies of his lecture and had given them away to students for free. He started going off about how he should've charged the students money--I told him it was too late. He had already given them away. Again, when I read "Wittgenstein, Tolstoy and the Meaning of Life" for free online (it's still for free online), he was sputtering about how he was violated, how he doesn't give away things for free. He had a $$$ fixation as a cerebral Narc (because I wasn't giving him sexual supply) He didn't like it that I was volunteering. He'd say that the tuition was PAYING him to be my friend- and he considered himself a prostitute. He couldn't understand the concept of a gift. Gifts are given freely. The giver doesn't usually want to negotiate to return it to them. A gift isn't something that can be fought over. It's not like legitimate legal papers a person might want back.

#28 Jan 11 - 8AM

Ava

Addendum - probably the biggest reason I'm wanting to ignore is

because I'm still battling so hard re. the absolute rejection & my loss of all self-worth. I spent years helping him with absolutely everything until I felt sucked dry & when he D&D'd me I fell apart & pathetically tried to find him, tried to contact him, begged him not to do this. And he ignored most & scornfully & condescendingly dismissed the rest. Actually told me he'd chosen the other woman because I was broken & not providing enough for him anymore & she was new & full of life. I was worthless. I was nothing. I was less than nothing. And I tried in the first few months after D&D to prove him that he was wrong - I continued helping him, paying his debts, defending him in court. He never acknowledged a bit of it and what a giant loser did i feel like. And over a year later I'm still fighting hard against that feeling that I'm worth nothing. I'm concerned that I may feel guilty if I don't send & I do want to to the right thing - but I'm also concerned that I'll feel like a pathetic, malleable doormat loser again if I do send. I'm not sure I'm strong enough yet to do the right thing. Does that make sense? Ava

Ava

#29 Jan 16 - 10AM (Reply to #8)

Indigo

Hi Ava. In your message

Hi Ava. In your message above you say: "when he D&D'd me I fell apart & pathetically tried to find him, tried to contact him, begged him not to do this. And he ignored most & scornfully & condescendingly dismissed the rest." It took me years to figure this out, but congratulations - the N realized that the end was coming and he did what Ns do - hurl accusations, cruelties, and that "If anyone is leaving it will be me" attitude they all have. Ns know, long before we do, that we are coming to the end and will stop his manipulation and craziness so they end the relationship first. It is your strength that he saw and knew the end was near. Shocking isn't it. But very true. Since he has used the tactics of leaving you no way to contact him and asking you about his documents, I would recommend that the next time he contacts you to tell him that he either makes arrangements for getting them to him at his expense (name a date), or tell him that you have been advised to give them all to immigration by (date). You are well rid of him and please know that his harsh D&D was his only defence against your strength. It happened to me too.

#30 Jan 11 - 10AM (Reply to #6)

spinning

A second to Betty's...

especially after reading your addendum. You owe him nothing and have NOTHING to feel guilty about. Betty's answer is a good one. Then follow through whenever you're ready and get rid of the rest of the crap. I like her suggestion of the local dump. Really, Ava, there are instances where "doing the right thing," i.e. being "nice" or "helpful" doesn't work. You OWE HIM NOTHING. You do not come running when he calls. You are not responsible for his personal effects. Put it back in his court and close the door for good. Just my opinion...hope it helps. Your thoughtful post question sounds like you have done a lot of hard inner work to get to the place you're at. Give yourself the credit and the power. You deserve it and earned it. Whatever he needs is immaterial to you. Hugs, Ava. You make me proud... sincerely (slowly slowing down) spinning

spinning

#31 Jan 12 - 9AM (Reply to #7)

Ava

Spinning

Oh spinning, you've bought tears to my eyes. And twice now.... I just read your words again.... I often get very worried that I just haven't made any progress at all & that while I think I've done a lot of inner work, I'm just going in circles or fooling myself into thinking I'm going anywhere. To hear you say that you feel I actually have got somewhere, it has really touched me. And now tears round three; to hear that you think I deserve & have earned credit. And oh my, that I could make you proud....? - I just can't put my feelings into words. I'm sorry I'm gushing but you've really touched my heart. Ok [wiping tears.... :) ] Your opinion has helped - and heaps. You are so right in that sometimes "doing the right thing" just doesn't work. And I really should know this from experience with him - we've certainly done this dance before with "business" communication since the D&D, including several rounds of What To Do With His Stuff and he's used each & every time as a game; leading me right up to where I think we've sealed the deal & an arrangement is imminent re. handing his stuff over. And then he has a "drama" and can't complete it or he just drops off the face of the earth again. I've tried so many times & in this past year all it has ever achieved has been me triggering & wasting my time. But I'm realising that no matter how many times I've been here, I can still fall for it & that's the big issue - I thought I was getting close to being done falling for it but I'm finally starting to see that I still will as long as I have that door open even an inch. I need to close it & thank you SO much for reassuring me that I am allowed to close it. That I am not responsible & don't owe him that open door. I like Betty's suggestion of the local dump too!! :) Thank you again, for your advice & wonderful words :) Ava xxx

Ava

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