Hmmmm - We're Angry and We're Hurt and We Can't Live with these guys BUT...

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Dec 1 - 5PM (Reply to #74)
michele115 (not verified)
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I appreciate it Betteroff

That you came back to clarify and I thank you. This was important to me simply because this is new for me... You've had two years here, I'm only at this...12 weeks with as you read, self proclaimed NC...LMAO...but really, for me it is NC cause I don't get rattled and when I do send a missive it is for me and I laugh at the mother...cause he so can't make a comeback in any way shape or form and he looks more and more assinine On FB I'm callin him Gumby and here, he just got promoted to bobble head...so things are progressing... But to get to the point of acceptance?...I really wanted peace within myself...if in my mind he has control and did this just to be a BITCH...to be mean...to be a sadist...for ME, that would hurt me more. Equally, I don't want to cover the sky with shit and say, oh, well and make excuses...our relationships were all built on excuses...our thinking is CLOUDED...it's not so much solving a mystery... Having my issues with my health for example, the entire world fucking misjudges us. Well, not so much now but thats cause now we are a gravy train for big pharma, but the money isn't on curing it's on masking...A number of people with my condition called Dr. K...the mercy killer and had themselves euthanized...that's how fucking ignorant the establishment was...AT THE TIME...and everytime I see that bitch on a lyrica commercial I want to kick her fucking ass because I would sell my ass in Macy's window during rush hour Christmas Season to look and feel as good as she does on tv and let me tell you Lyrica does not work for me. And I've tried all the shit...I'm just lucky I have a doctor that understands. Doctors gaslight us too telling us we're crazy, or suffering from Somatization disorders and all that other good warm fuzzy stuff - you know why? CAUSE THEY DON'T KNOW EVERYTHING and sometimes there is even financial or political reasons why research is suppressed. So for me, and this is not to sound like I'm one upping or condescending - I'm sharing how or why my head went here today...relating my personal experience, analyzing trying to make "connections" I have a little more first hand experience in knowing what it's like to be a "Medical" mystery, to be judged, to be ABUSED by the establishment that's meant to help. Those that are making decisions, making judgements, writing about this - AND I AM REFERRING TO THE PROFESSIONALS they are limited by what they know THUS FAR...and so NO - we've got these furry raccoons A.K.A. the NARCS - I love that analogy *Brie but in the end, if we did not know what a raccoon was ever capable of and we approached it and got our ass tore up...we'd be stunned, shocked etc...BUT IF WE KNEW THE NATURE OF A WILD ANIMAL then even though we get our behinds tore up...you kinda understand it better. And so NO DOUBT WE ARE VICTIMS...but can they be too? Can there be two sets of victims and no one is guilty? No one is to blame? No one is at fault? It just is. And getting to the Just is...could that be at least the beggining to accept acceptance? It's always mystified me when lion tamers get in the ring then get mauled and for some reason the lion gets shot? Why...Lions don't belong in the ring in a circus...it's the nature of the lion...until there is research, a cure, treatment something - can we take our knowledge, our expeirence, learn, never get caught up again but embrace acceptance by saying: It's the nature of a Narc? does there have to be a right person and a wrong person. In the end...is the real battle of controlling who was right who was wrong?...BRAIN DAMAGE...is it? Isn't it? What is it?...and still I don't know - but if they ever do find out...let's dream 20 years from now, well I'll be happy but by then that damn anger better be gone!...LMAO - shit, maybe he'll get a metal chip implanted and I'll finally get my fucking sorry and he could mean it!... So with the Narcs...Dangerous Mofo's for sure - but can they help who they are? For ME...that is what I needed to kick around and hear what others thought in order to try to move a few inches up today. Fully cognizant that my piddly six months or 12 weeks or three days since post rant to the bobble head...whatever could be progress or I could be on the floor again... But for just for today - the PRESENT this is were I was trying to elevate.
Dec 1 - 5PM (Reply to #75)
better off
better off's picture

And your deeply empathetic

And your deeply empathetic spirit is what makes lions want to eat you, whether they can help it or not. It is what makes you a special person, and you don't have to apologize for those feelings. And I am not "all-knowing" by the amount of time I've "put in" (as if I had a choice, eh?) but my main point was that it does ease, however it eases and however you find your peace. Shit, 12 weeks after I went NC I was still suicidal I think. So I'm no hero, I'm just "older." I, too, have been abused by the establishment. I understand your thoughts. OTOH, for me, the establishment gives them a pass, mostly because they have no clue what to do. And if anything, IMO, the N/P's are given the benefit of the doubt a thousand times over even when there is no evidence to support giving it to them. That has been the nature of my own experiences. If you deal with doctors gaslighting you then you also know how some of them can be: If I don't know what's wrong with you, then nothing is wrong with you. (narcissist) Or.. if I can't prescribe a pill for it, it's not a disease. (idiot) And now, as we speak, they are trying to remove NPD from the books, for those very two reasons! But that's a different topic. Anyway, I DO understand what you are reaching for. Whatever you end up believing for yourself, it will still be less important to you in the future than it is today. So that is the hope that I want to give you, that it gets better.
Dec 1 - 6PM (Reply to #76)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Thank you Betteroff

For taking the time...It's gotta get better...
Dec 1 - 3PM (Reply to #72)
blueeyes
blueeyes's picture

Aaahhh!

Now that's what I call getting it out. Its not in you a little more each time you do this!! Keep your pants on! Hahahaha
Dec 1 - 3PM (Reply to #69)
Briseis
Briseis's picture

Betty, you nailed it in your

Betty, you nailed it in your first sentence. The problem IS in the classification. It's like separating a pile of sand into it's constituents. Shall we separate them as to molecular structure? Or color? Or weight? It's all SAND, that's the problem. PD behavior itself is HUMAN behavior. It both is and is not distinct from what we call NORMAL behavior (ie, it is so common as to be "normal") Just because a rather large group of us take extreme exception to PD behavior does not mean it is not NORMAL human behavior. Plus a lot of the judges and lobbyists and politicians and high falutin' MD/researchers would have to get their faces rubbed in their own disorder :D We can't have that, now can we? How hard it is to distinguish between a PDI and a normie is evidenced on this board every single minute of every day. It's easier for me because I've been working on that discretion for years. It is a learned thing, like learning the differences between brown sand and browner sand. Which "brown" is really BROWN, and which is just regular BROWN? I do believe that there is (and needs to be) a growing awareness of "mental hygeine". We suffer the effects of bad behavioral hygeine and have a legal system to deal with that. But bad behavioral hygeine is firmly rooted in bad mental and emotional hygeine. I think as a culture we are just beginning to GET that. And it's not easy to get. Extreme sociopathy and malignant narcissism have been with us forever, as have histrionic drama queens and femme fatales. What gets really unnerving (to me) is that we normies are more similar to the Narcs and sociopaths than we are different. HOWEVER, the differences are quantum differences, not little "details". The differences put them in different solar systems, not just different points of view. If we can't hold them accountable for their actions, then we have to hold ourselves accountable to either contain them for the public safety or learn to discern their behaviors so we can avoid them as best as possible. As for "fixing" them, "fixing" someone against their will probably won't ever happen. We'd have to isolate the genes and do genetic modification on embryos, or something equally futuristic. Can you tell I'm a sci fi fan :D Not just animal metaphors, but SPACE and TIME metaphors, with a few evil genius gene mod metaphors thrown in for spice :D
Dec 1 - 4PM (Reply to #70)
better off
better off's picture

It's all sand...

OMG, I am lmao right now thinking about Sam Kinison. Did you ever see him do that routine, about the sand? And now I can apply it to narcs. It was when he was talking about people starving in deserts and not to send them food, but to send them U-Hauls instead. "See what this is? This is saand. Know what it's going to be a thousand years from now? ....SAND!!!!!!!! It's a f**king desert!!"
Dec 1 - 7AM
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Sociopaths/Answers.com - Explanation of Brain Abnomalities etc..

Sociopaths are the way they are because, from birth onward, the brain of a sociopath stores learning information in a random, chaotic way instead of in the usual designated places in the cerebral cortex. Part of this involves lack of crucial neurotransmitters, but as of yet no one knows whether this lack is caused BY the brain abnormality or is the cause OF it. It's probably the former. Since their information -- including emotional information -- is scattered all over both brain hemispheres, it takes too long for the brain to retrieve and process information, and the entire process of socialization becomes so ponderous that ultimately it fails. (See the book "Without Conscience" by Robert Hare, PhD.) Since the entire cerebral cortex of a sociopath is almost never at a normal level of alertness (their waking brain waves resemble the waves of a normal person in a light sleep, alpha waves), this may be the crucial deficiency that cripples the developing child's ability to develop many aspects of the human mind. As the child grows, some of the basic mental and emotional skills the rest of the world takes so for granted never develop, and crucial among these is the thing called conscience. That one never develops at all. Some people may envy the apparent calm of a sociopath, but their existence is misery. They cannot connect with other human beings, and as babies they are so uncomfortable being held that they fight to wriggle free of all but the most basic necessary contact. Their heartbroken parents often blame themselves or the child, never knowing that what is really wrong with the child is in his or her brain. Under the almost somnolent calm sociopaths project is a constant sense of restlessness and lack of fulfillment that is nothing other than the basic need all people have to receive stimulation and support from others. But a sociopath has no way of receiving this even if it's offered. The endless frustration of this, and a discomfort that they are utterly incapable of articulating or even really understanding, is the source of much of their chronic anger and aggression. Plus, since they grow up in constant conflict with authority, they are most often bitterly angry and sometimes violent adults, brittle and combatative under a thin veneer of charm. Offered friendship, they appear to respond, but quickly discover that they can get nothing from it; they see the obvious pleasure of other people in such contact with each other, and they often seek to "even it up" by stealing what they can -- material goods, or even human lives. They are constantly told how "bad" they are, and by adulthood, most of them believe it. And behave accordingly. Sociopaths rarely feel true happiness. If they do, it is usually in the condition that some kind of intervention -- such as one of the small number of medications made for other conditions that may also help somewhat with theirs -- has taken place, and it will be fleeting. For all their frantic racing around, they are really very dead inside, and this is tragic beyond description. Imagine spending your entire life trying to get your brain to wake up! And failing. Thousands of times. There are stories of people diagnosed as sociopaths who did improve to some degree, with the most ceaseless and diligent help. But since the vast majority of this huge body of people (there are more than three hundred million sociopaths on Earth) cannot get that kind of attention, they turn to abusing those they envy, and often to crime. It is certainly vengeance: "If I can't have any of this, why should you?" This is the real reason sociopaths lash out at strong and kind people. No matter what they say, they know that inside, they are always empty and damaged beyond repair. Only in neuroscience is there hope for these incomplete people. The key lies in awakening the brain, which is risky because sociopaths are much more prone to seizures than the rest of the population, and that -- an uncontrolled blast of electrical discharge spreading through the brain and causing violent convulsions -- is likely to be the first response from brain pathways that, after years or even decades of silence, are suddenly flooded with impulses. But if the devices of neurosurgeons can be tweaked to avoid this shock, and all else related to this idea is workable, it's feasible that small electronic devices planted in the brain (these already exist, but are not yet being used for mental illness) could open up a closed connection. That leaves us with the problem of whether a lifetime of scattered information can ever be set into order. Probably the best that could be hoped for would be a kind of retraining -- like what is now done with stroke survivors and head injury patients -- that would be both intensive and compensatory. One of the things that would be necessary would be to try to socialize the person whose congenital birth defect made such a thing completely impossible before. Whatever intervention is used, be it drugs or computer chips or what have you, it would probably -- I'd say certainly -- be excruciating for the patient at first. With no knowledge of how to cope with the emotions the rest of the world has been dealing with all their lives, the recovering sociopath would be rendered as vulnerable as a baby. Which makes sense, because some of the most basic aspects of the human mind would be developing from the primordial stasis in which they had remained since birth! A person thus treated would never be fully normal, but the human brain is amazing in the way it adapts and continues to develop all through life. And given the utterly joyless and meaningless existence a sociopath leads, any improvement is better than none. The matter of missing neurotransmitters in a sociopath is, of course, another problem. Would "waking up" the cerebral cortex eventually stimulate production of these? Or would they have to be synthesized? Only time will tell. In any case, the desire to get well on the part of the man in the question -- assuming it is genuine -- is a rare but gradually increasing trend: when there are actually concrete solutions, or at least (at this point) partial solutions, the miserable existences of sociopaths may be mitigated. It's hard to trust, but dying terribly young -- or living in isolation while everyone around him (or her) seems to be having a wonderful life (which of course not everyone is, but it may well seem that way to the sociopath) -- aren't the only options any more...and although very, very few sociopaths can see that right now, it's not unheard of, not impossible, and not going to be the only way out once neurologists and neurosurgeons figure out how exactly to wake up those sleeping segments of the brain of the true psychopath (sociopath). It's not a matter of "if," but "when".
Dec 1 - 9AM (Reply to #60)
better off
better off's picture

And yet you read the

And yet you read the sociopath blogs and see that they are not complaining. They do like the way they are. They think we are the ones who are lacking. At least the type that write or post on blogs, which is only one subset of people obviously. But frankly, I think if you handed out free anti-sociopathic pills on every street corner in America, most sociopaths would keep on walking. All of this thinking seems to again be normal people trying to discern what sociopaths "feel" or don't feel based on how WE feel or think. To US, it would be miserable and joyless. They don't seem to care. If they are so miserable and joyless then why do they refuse treatment? The people who need them to seek treatment are their victims. Perhaps there is a future where some types will be "cured" but looking at the course of human history and human nature, I don't think it will ever be purged from our midst. Again, I think when talking about adults, they are still making choices, and I find it hard to accept that they are simply so debilitated that they cannot be held responsible for any of their actions. Two alcoholics can be side by side. They can have the same brain chemistry that causes alcoholism. They are both addicts. And yet, one can say, OMG, alcohol is ruining my life, I will lose the things I love (family, friends, job, respect) if I don't find a way to stop drinking and avail myself of the piles of resources available to me. The second one can say, I will lose the thing I love (alcohol) if I continue in these relationships. He/she will choose alcohol. Child molesters seem to have it in their nature to want that, looking at the recidivism rate of their crimes... would I want to be them? No. Do I feel sorry for them? No. No matter how much they want to do something, they don't have to do it. One person could have that urge and decide to become a monk and live on a mountain where he can't be tempted, or maybe just an accountant in a cubicle, lol, while another decides to become a Boy Scout leader or youth minister or teacher, or put a ferris wheel in his back yard like Michael Jackson, simply so he can have the easiest access to his prey. We are not animals, no matter how f**ked up any of our brains happened to be. The thing that separates us from animals is the ability to make choices. If anything, this argument that they have deformed brains and can't help being animals, then, basically, then I would say the better option is to "put them down" or at least keep them caged like the predators they are.
Dec 1 - 9AM (Reply to #61)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Better Off

Two things to further the discussion you said: All of this thinking seems to again be normal people trying to discern what sociopaths "feel" or don't feel based on how WE feel or think. To US, it would be miserable and joyless. My pondering is not about discerning how they feel but the possible merits of their allegedly suffering from a "cognitive disability" which I attempted to support with the thread underneath citing biological reasons. You then said: But frankly, I think if you handed out free anti-sociopathic pills on every street corner in America, most sociopaths would keep on walking. I agree they would be the first to turn down anti-Sociopathic pills, but don't most that are clinically insane do the same thing? If someone were brain damaged and committed an assault psychological or otherwise, would your emotional healing be different vs. if the injury occured from a NORMAL person.
Dec 1 - 11AM (Reply to #66)
ClusterF
ClusterF's picture

I'm a little confused as well

Is your point that we should feel sorry for them? Or to remove responsibility for their actions because they are sick? Or is it that they are curable and we should put our heads together to figure out how to do it? In my opinion, it's almost like saying guns kill people, people don't kill people. One of the strongest traits of the sociopath is that they are generally not treatable because they don't think anything is wrong with them. They have no conscience or empathy. To compare them to a cancer patient is in my opinion very misguided and not appropriate at all. I have no sympathy, empathy or anything else for people with what I think is a very dangerous and destructive disorder. I don't think they deserve to live in society. I don't mind being angry about what happened to me--I deserve to hold that hatred to make sure it never happens to me again, and hopefully my anger will help other women not have to experience the horror of emotional and physical abuse by these things masquerading as people. "If someone were brain damaged and committed an assault psychological or otherwise, would your emotional healing be different vs. if the injury occured [sic] from a NORMAL person." A normal person wouldn't generally commit physical or psychological assault.
Dec 1 - 11AM (Reply to #67)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

If you read further down Cluster

I posted about my cousin who had a traumatic brain injury...his brain was DAMAGED There is a theory that sociopaths brains are DAMAGED I don't think there is anything I've written here that indicates I believe we should put our heads together and figure out how to do it. I also don't know how much you've elected to read. I am addressing a theory pertaining to alleged damage to the brain. As a matter of fact, my PTSD study was going to entail studying a part of my brain - the AMALYGDA to see changes to it pre and post therapy... If my cousin knocked the crap out of me, certainly I would be harmed and not like it BUT I also know his brain is DAMAGED so I would not hate him. I would understand that he could not help his behavior. That's what I'm saying and I can't tell anyone, nor am I trying to tell anyone how long they should cling to their anger. But if there is something in my tone that seems condescending and preachy, I am open to discussion.
Dec 1 - 9AM (Reply to #62)
better off
better off's picture

I understand the biological

I understand the biological reasons, but we are interpreting them based on being normal. I'm honestly confused about your point, because it's a contradiction to say that you are not pondering how they feel, but that they are allegedly "suffering" from this cognitive disability. Isn't pondering their suffering the same thing? They say they are not suffering, but we say they are, because to us it would be suffering. I read that guy's blog... and I didn't see any suffering. It was about his enjoyment, and pride, frankly, in manipulating people. His favorite pasttime was "ruining people." He likes it. I think enjoying ruining people goes beyond "I have a cognitive disability that makes it so I can't empathize." My husband has a hell of a time empathizing with people, he can't put himself in someone else's shoes very well at all. It's a constant struggle and as the example keeps being given, it's kinda autistic. But he doesn't want to hurt people. A lot of the sociopaths we are talking about here do want to hurt people. They WANT to. They like it. You can come back and argue that they can't help wanting to or liking it, but that doesn't really matter to me. They can help what they do. Every sociopath I have had the misfortune to know usually knows exactly how far they can go before suffering any true consequences (what would feel like consequences to them) and so, that's how far they go. I think that belies conscious choice. I was reading that book Why Does He Do That? by Lundy Bancroft and he said every abuser has a line they won't cross. Some won't get physical, some won't punch, some won't kick. They have lines. Which means they choose what's on each side of it. I just think it's more complicated that brain imaging can fully explain.
Dec 1 - 9AM (Reply to #63)
better off
better off's picture

quick add on, I was stalked

quick add on, I was stalked for five-plus years by a true psychotic, and OMG, the pity the "justice system" had on him. None for me, of course, but anyway, his most violent attack on me, I later found out was the DAY AFTER he got off probation for something else. That's a man that can control himself even though he seems out of control or not responsible for his craziness. He could easily NOT attack me while he was on probation. When he was off, then he didn't hold it back. He chose to do it. Is he a broken, brain-damaged mess? Absolutely. Can he control himself? When it suits him.
Dec 1 - 10AM (Reply to #64)
Used
Used's picture

betteroff

later found out was the DAY AFTER he got off probation for something else. i so agree with this my exh got, probation,3 diffrent times ,not once did he step out of line, with weeks of finishing probation he was in trouble again, he then got a2 year suspended sentance, he again kept toeing the line, after finishing it, he started again, that time he got prison, he can control himself if it suits him at the time, which i then relized, not only can he control himself, but was a consumate actor......his behavior in court deserved an oscar.
Dec 1 - 5PM (Reply to #65)
better off
better off's picture

Yes, watching them in court

Yes, watching them in court is breathtaking, is it not? Kind of like...OJ Simpson? blech. What amazed me during the entire "process" (over years and years) was how everyone seemed to do everything in their power NOT to incarcerate him. I never could figure it out. He was easy to figure out = psycho! But the prosecutors and judges...wow. They were worse. I could write a book. Earlier on in our "relationship" (when I was 17 and dated him for like 2 months which he then decided was going to be forever or kill me first), he got into some scrapes with the law (and so I wanted away from him ASAP), and he would play sad puppy for the cops, etc, and then he would friggin laugh his ass off over it. He had zero respect for the "system" because they were such chumps concerning people like him. They would give their stern warnings and hand slaps to him, with his downcast eyes, and then he'd LAUGH about it.
Dec 1 - 6AM
Fawn
Fawn's picture

Brie

Ha ha! I loved your comment about having more sympathy for salted slugs than your Ex-N. Amen Sister! I'm right with you, and I HATE slugs. I work with developmentally delayed children, and we teach them manners and empathy and all of the social/emotional skills that we, as humans are supposed to have to function in society. Just because someone is developmentally delayed doesn't mean that they are allowed to go around hitting people or slamming other kids' heads into the wall. It just takes longer to teach them. Occasionally we will have a child who is so severely delayed that they aren't very teachable, but that is actually rare, from my experience. I get what you are saying, Michele, about not having as much anger toward someone who really and truly doesn't know any better. However, I think that the ex-N in my life DOES know better, and he continues to victimize others, including my children. His rages and shaming and humiliation tactics are very much affecting my children. This is what makes me feel no sympathy or forgiveness for him. He doesn't even acknowledge all of the horrible things he has done, he continues to try to victimize me and others, and he continues to blame me, telling me, "You no longer control me" and "You no longer have any effect on me, you can't make me feel like crap like you used to." Any opportunity that he has to hurt me, rage at me, or somehow passive-aggressively inconvenience me, he will take. He has had my address changed on my mail, for example. That is a small thing, but very annoying and sneaky. Now he is raging at our kids, because the two older ones are teenagers now and don't give him supply like the little one does. He is totally confounded and frustrated with them, and he is calling me raging at me about them, as well as raging at them and trying underhanded, sneaky things instead of just talking to them. He doesn't deserve my forgiveness because he continues victimizing people. I actually became convinced for awhile that he was Autistic, or at least, Asperger's. His total lack of tact and the things he said to me were totally wack. That was when I was giving him the benefit of the doubt, and thought that maybe he was teachable. WRONG! He is just pure evil. I try to avoid him as much as possible. I have sole custody of our children, but he does have some visitation and I have to do so much damage control when they come home. The older two will eventually stop going over there, I'm sure. My oldest says that when she walks in the door of his apartment, a wave of depression and misery washes over her. She says that it is so bleak and horrible over there. I have to send her though, because of the judges in my district who don't believe that teenagers get to decide where they live. I get that, but my kids are miserable over there. I thought for awhile that he was doing better, but now I know that he was just trying to reel in new supply and was playing SuperDad.
Dec 1 - 10AM (Reply to #58)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Fawn

You wrote: Now he is raging at our kids, because the two older ones are teenagers now and don't give him supply like the little one does. He is totally confounded and frustrated with them, and he is calling me raging at me about them, as well as raging at them and trying underhanded, sneaky things instead of just talking to them. He doesn't deserve my forgiveness because he continues victimizing people. And I find that so interesting. The narc had three children from three different women...okay we won't go into what BRAINFART I had okay...LOL what stood out of course hindsight being 20-20 in your post was that the first daughter was a military baby...you know those stories...okay, he gave her up he was on drugs at the time don't ask me how but I guess these guys can evade anything - so she was adopted but kept in touch with him from time to time they still keep in touch but they are nowhere close - she's in another state and was raised in another state and he didn't exactly try to bond with her...excuses whateva... Second child is gonna be 18 or is 18 wants nothing to do with him. Narcs story was that his wife who had the third child with him, turned on the 18 year old and after that he did not want to visit his father and the Narc didn't do much to ease the situation or say, visit the son on his turf...I surmised there was a understandable resentment from the son for his dad not sticking up or taking a stand for his blood. But there was always something more underneath it in my mind...something deeper. The youngest is seven. So he's still the one that will give supply...he's divorced from his wife, but that is the new supply source. When we got together my son was nine. Still a kid, but i noticed a hostility as my son got older too...I find it very interesting what you wrote. Of course as my son got older, he detached it's normal - but there was a change for sure. That is really interesting... And that wave of depression that your daughter felt, I started to feel it towards the end when he would come home. Weird...
Dec 1 - 6AM (Reply to #48)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Fawn...

There are some studies which tend to lean towards the THEORY that there are actual BRAIN abnormalities in these people...I know the behavior, I'm on the board with you... My cousin was a little badass...lovable but a badass...Never violent, but he'd get himself into micheif. One day he was riding in between train cars and his head was slammed full speed into a signal light. We were told to make arrangements. I never thought it was humanly possible for the human head to swell to the size of a watermelon. A part of his brain was damaged. He Lived. He walks, he talks, he functions, he converses, he can read...etc, but a Part of his brain that affects mood was damaged. He will have a fit of violence out of nowhere unprovoked with anyone at anytime for no reason. He can't help it. So we have sympathy for the developmentally disabled, and we "teach" them - but society right now is saying the Sociopaths aren't "Teachable" well years ago, the kids you are working with were locked up in horrible enviornments left in squalor and treated sub human because there was no funding to study just how much they could be rehabilitated. Look what they did to Kennedy's sister... Science hasn't caught up yet that is the problem. These people are sick and they can't be helped and we can't help that they can't be helped and until they can be helped they are dangerous to us - yes, stay away...but not sure if the anger is appropriate because they are sick. We don't hate cancer patients do we? Sick is sick is it not?
Dec 1 - 3PM (Reply to #57)
jen79
jen79's picture

Anger is appropriate.

And not because THEY are so wrong, and we are so right. But because if you feel angry, you are angry. Period. There is no such thing as appropriate emotion. When you feel it, you feel it. Act on it? Thats another topic. So of course, if you are ready to forgive Michelle, do it, you dont need the confirmation from anyone, not even on from anyone on this board. If someone is still angry, so be it. Its part of the healing process, and its the first step out of feeling like a victim. So all these emotions are valid. Everyone is in a different state. Our understanding of things changes while the process, and everyone will get to a different point of view to heal. I think we are pretty obsessed here to find the ultimate truth, and its so comforting in the beginning, when you wake up from this nightmare. But later on, things will change. And we have to accept that everyone at the end, had its own way to deal with it.
Dec 1 - 7AM (Reply to #49)
TNR1
TNR1's picture

Anger is absolutely appropriate...

We are talking about individuals who fundamentally lack empathy and use others in order to make themselves feel/look better. How should someone react to being used?? I understand that their brains are different. Doesn't change the devistation that these individuals leave behind. Do you think they spend one iota of the day wondering about any of their victims (other than trying to win them back to use them some more)? Do you think when they visit this board (and you know they do) that they care one ounce that they are missing empathy? Nope! There is always fresh supply. These individuals spend days honing their skills to find another sympathetic victim. So yes, anger is an appropriate initial reaction. Staying in anger though does more harm than good for the long term...so the goal is really to get mad enough to go NC and have nothing to do with the N and then find your happiness and let the anger go. Here is to breaking the N cycle!
Dec 1 - 1PM (Reply to #53)
Briseis
Briseis's picture

I agree TRN1. Anger is an

I agree TRN1. Anger is an appropriate initial reaction. I'll add that each individual needs an differing amounts of time to spend being angry. And that NATURALLY, the anger will begin to drain away as healing work goes on. I have known a few examples of people who stay bitter and in perpetual "victim mode". IOW, perpetually "angry". It's like they find that anger place and build their house, rather than pitch a tent. Anger is a waystation, a vitally important one. When it SHOULD end, I can't say, I have no idea. All I can say is the "flavor" of the anger is very different in a person who is righteously angry post-Narc relationship and a person who is still raging and steaming years later. Very angry women post-Narc are still sensitive and empathic, and frequently notice that they are unhappy or exhausted by their anger. They have a love/hate relationship with it. People who've built their permanent home in anger are bitter and hypervigilant and seem to get secondary gain (ie, a feeling of powerfulness) from maintaining their anger. They put out food for their anger. They defend their angry stance with personal attacks when it is questioned. A person with healthy anger toward a Narc does not attack anyone else, and if they do, they regret it very quickly. A person with unhealthy anger feels justified if they "have" to put someone else down. It's still very much a victim mind set.
Dec 1 - 4PM (Reply to #54)
blueeyes
blueeyes's picture

Briseis?

I absolutely NEVER disagree with you ((as you are my future self, I hope)) I may be confused/disagree with someone staying in anger and putting others down a "bully" rather than much a victim mind set? I teach my kids about bullies all the time. Your description of this different type of victim is same as I describe a bully to my kids. Maybe I just don't understand the 2 descriptions being different? Ok, since I babble, I'll clarify, where is the line in the sand? When do you say unhealthy anger vs. Healthy anger? Lol. Everytime I learn something new, I must find out WHY? Sorry B. My HN is a bully, well both of them are but I'm confused why I would act anything like either one of them. That would make me nuts? I never met a woman in a state of anger and put others down. I'm either enlightened, confused or a complete moron? :)
Dec 2 - 1AM (Reply to #55)
Briseis
Briseis's picture

The more I think about how

The more I think about how to distinguish them the more confused I get. A sign that I might have barked up the wrong tree or I'm going brain dead (I'm at work). I've met a "victim", who presented as a victim (on a site such as this one) who were probably the perpetrator instead just by behavior exhibited when their covers were blown. That is pretty rare. But I've seen true victims of narcs/abusers who have acted out their anger abusively, not toward the narc (that would be more reactive abuse) but indiscriminately. This is a person still needing to work on guilt and blame inside themselves. IMO, they haven't forgiven themselves yet and get triggered. I saw a several members of a forum react abusively to the board owner (different abuse board) when the board owner broke one of her own rules about posting political information. A few people openly attacked her, definitely verbally abused her publically, and other things that were shocking to see coming from VICTIMS of abuse. While people are still in the "victim mind set", this kind of stuff happens. Frankly, it's not that different than why the Narcs or abusers abuse. They think you deserve it, too. Does that make sense?
Dec 2 - 5AM (Reply to #56)
blueeyes
blueeyes's picture

Yes Briseis, makes sense,

I totally see now, like sexual abuser will become a predetor because of the abuse they have suffered. I guess my confusion (much like N confusion) was why? You answered that, so thank you. I do not understand people of that nature? I certainly hope to come here or any place and seek solace. This is not the place to take old anger out on new folks trying to lear,cope and just plain survive. You said "They think you deserve it, too." That is outrageous because if I deserved it, I would be with my 2nd husband today. Most likely getting 2 kids off to school, baby to day care, work 12 hrs, answer 49 phone calls from him trying to manipulate me, get the baby, do whatever stupid errand he wanted ect.... Thanks for clarifying but I hope that none of us newbies take the "victim mind set". Ya learn something new everyday! Today I learned about a new outcome from N abuse. A road I won't travel but not to say it doesnt happen. Thanks B
Dec 1 - 8AM (Reply to #52)
blueeyes
blueeyes's picture

TNR1

"Staying in anger though does more harm than good for the long term... get mad enough to go NC and have nothing to do with the N." I agree be angry long enough to let it all go and move on for ourselves. It hurts pretty bad when I have to see this man. I feel the effects of the contact. I really is a setback....
Dec 1 - 1PM (Reply to #50)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

TNR1

Perhaps I could express my sentiments better. We are going through a grief process... The Six stages I think there's six...include anger It is a natural part of the process I acknowledge that; however, because this was such a shock and what I might describe as feeling violated to a great extent - the anger may very well linger longer than it might under normal circumstances. What I am getting at or tyring to get at is that at a certain point, if we try to understand what happened from say a medical poit of view - that while the behavior is hurtful and we experienced grief - that the anger might be better placed on the illness rather than the idividual. I posted an article entitled: Sociopaths/Explanations of Brain Abnormalities on another thread.
Dec 2 - 11PM (Reply to #51)
TNR1
TNR1's picture

I don't necessarily agree...

That is giving too much credit to it simply being a brain disorder and not giving enough credit to the fact that on some level these individuals "know" they are hurting others and they just don't care. And it doesn't take into account any "nuture" influence in their lives. You could have 2 individuals who both have the same brain chemistry, but I am not sure that both would end up being a narc. To some degree I think we try very hard to understand their world, which is commendable. I doubt they try with any amount of effort to try to understand ours. In the end, we are all on a personal journey to recovery and our steps and stages to get back on track may mean taking different approaches when it comes to how we look back on our relationship and process it.
Dec 1 - 3AM
Briseis
Briseis's picture

I have no problem demonizing

I have no problem demonizing anyone who behaves demonically. I also have no problem understanding that they are ill or disturbed and in need of help. IF they even would seek or accept it. A very developmentally delayed person, or schizophrenic person who murders someone, may not be culpable because they do not understand right from wrong. But they should still be locked up and prevented from hurting anyone else. I don't really care WHY they murder/damage/destroy. It doesn't change that they DO these things. It doesn't mitigate the circumstance IMO. They still brought pain and suffering to someone. Should they be burned at the stake or fried in an electric chair? Or subjected to revenge? It only brings down the people serving up the punishment. And it doesn't solve the problem. It doesn't solve the problem to feel sorry for them either. I don't. I feel sorrier for salted slugs than I do for my exNarc. He is a destructive and dangerous person though he is very rarely violent. He is also deeply disturbed and it is likely caused by a neurological impairment. I'm still staying far, far away. If there are sociopaths or Narcs out there who somehow manage to not cause misery and suffering to their loved ones, I have no problem with them. Live and let live. They don't deserve to be hunted down or shunned because of their neurology. But when they hurt me and/or others, that's a different story. I don't think it does any one any good to absolve their bad behavior based upon "illness" or "impairment". The behavior stands alone. If they are too disturbed or ill to be responsible for it, then they should be contained and treated with normal respect and rehabilitation. If they are capable of assuming responsibility, they need to be held responsible whether they accept or refuse. It's as basic as cause and effect. It would be a safer world if more people lived their life as if their behavior had consequences.
Dec 1 - 6AM (Reply to #46)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

BRIE!

Statistically from what I read, the truly sick will NEVER seek help! It's part of being sick...they can't see it! I am sick but not that "sick" when I say I need help, I'm not the same level of sick... I'm talking sick... I know you get what I'm saying...
Dec 1 - 4AM (Reply to #27)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

I get what you're saying Brie

However, from the perspective of dealing with our anger - for taking their actions personally... Yes we've been hurt Yes they're dangerous to us But, lets look at say an autistic child who we trigger inadvertently - take away the stimulus for a minute - us bothering them...sometimes Austistics react violently when their equilibrium is disturbed. So if we were to inadvertently disturb and austistic's equilibrium and they reacted to a certain degree although harmed, we could "understand" that it was not within the control of the Autistic. This does not negate the fact that we were harmed, but we make an allowance that there is a reason WHY we got hurt... What we seem to be dealing with here is a disordered mind that operates a certain way - albeit predatorily but that is due to the HYPOTHETICAL AND/OR ALLEGED neurological problem/disability. It's how they operate out of an illness. While very hard, painful, and traumatic for us - I'm just wondering if we could view it as more thier being in a sense powerless over what they do as well as at this time "incurable" which is why we have to keep a distance...does that help some of the anger? Rather than ruminating on How could he do this to me? Come to an understanding that he's fucked up but can't help it.