Invalidation

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#1 Jul 17 - 8PM
Anonymous (not verified)
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Invalidation

Barbara, I was reading about this on your blog...very good article. I had a comment today from a relative that felt pretty invalidating - it was a new one to me. I was griping (just in that mood) about struggles lately, practical and mental...she said, 'you have to stop putting out those feelings to the universe! If you think bad things will happen, chances are, they will.' Now, I'm all for anyone who believes as she does - new age stuff, but this made me feel like, great - now I'm to blame for bad things happening?? I get what she's saying, but in my current state, this didn't feel so great. Another example of how people just don't get it...

Jul 19 - 12PM
Carolyn
Carolyn's picture

The person who did this

The person who did this invalidation to you is very insensitive. It is very rude and causes pain to the person speaking. We all have gripes and it is respectful to listen. I heard a hostess at a party tell one of her guests, who was telling a very interesting story, that he was 'very negative'. that is a fancy way of telling another adult to 'shut-up'. the speaker, a very good lawyer, was embarassed and so were all of the guests who heard the exchange. I never accepted another invitation to her house. What the lady was talking about is the law of attraction and there are a lot of books on that subject. If there is a Unity Church in your area they have bookstores with this type of book. the Law of Attraction is about changing your thinking so that you attract what you want into your life. I have used it for 30 years and have had some really great experiences. The philosophy is 'what you think about-you bring about' . You were talking about something that was bothering you that has nothing to do with the law of attraction and she was being meanspirited and not at all supportive.
Jul 19 - 4PM (Reply to #9)
quietude (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

carolyn

Thanks for this. The person who did this is normally not a meanspirited person, rather...just someone who keeps very busy rather than face some of her own issues...I think it was more of a brush-off, as in "I don't have time for this, so here is my BLANKET explanation to cover it"...which also covers many other things that are 'inconvenient'. I'm aware of the Unity church teachings...people close to me are into Ekhart Tolle (sp?) and yes...Law of Attraction. The thing I don't like about that theory is it is too easy for people to blame you for bad things happening. I get the theory, but it is lacking in certain circumstances, such as narcissistic abuse. I am typically optimistic, but being abused has brought 'negativity' if you will out in the forefront. I am TRYING to think of the good stuff, but it's more of a struggle since I was screwed over by this person. I put my trust, faith, and pretty much FUTURE into this person, and for him, it was NEVER real! It was like a play to him, he played his part...looked and acted the part, then left. Yes, I'm bitter in some ways, but I don't outwardly throw that 'out there' in every day life. I can't for one thing - I'm in a career that requires me to treat people right and set an example. I don't mistreat people in the world. I feel that it's okay if I'm grumpy with the universe right now...I'm sure that'll change. But I don't think it means terrible things will continue to happen to me until I am able to smother my brain ONLY with positive thinking. Just venting...this is really just directed at anyone who doesn't wish to validate us. I really appreciate your support and advice, it's very helpful!
Jul 19 - 6PM (Reply to #10)
Barbara (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

YMMV

personally the LAW OF ATTRACTION is a lot of bullcrap. research has shown - you are TARGETTED by these pathologicals. They choose us... we do NOT attract them. I have met a number of women who have been seriously mentally screwed up by believing this Law of Attraction nonsense. One of them, at least, said it was like a cult. YMMV ~~~~~~~~~~~ Articles & information for abuse victims - Updated Daily Online Coaching for Victims of Narcissists/ Psychopaths
Jul 19 - 5AM
liselotte
liselotte's picture

the significance of validation

Why it's hard to heal; The significance of validation. I believed my relationship with my spouse was ‘special’. That what wehad between us was so far evolved from the ox-yoked marriages of our parents that we were pushing the millennial change forward, ushering in a spiritually progressive union between a man and a woman as peers, not unequals. We used to have deeply earnest conversations about spiritual beings having a physical experience and I lofted into reveries of the meaning of things which appeared for all intents and purposes to be shared by my partner. I loved sharing deep thoughts, probing the essence of being alive and questioning God’s purposes for his rebelliouschildren, our fears, our insufferable pains and irremediable uncertainties. Talks like this were uncommon in my home as a child where the most pressing issue of the day was who was gonna make dinner and whose week it was to feed the horses. Pragmatic is how I’d describe my formation years, so when I met someone who introduced me to Herman Hesse and taught me all about Siddhartha and meditation, I felt as if God had brought the two of us together. As I said, and you psych-savvy readers have already figured out most likely, this is what “I” was thinking during our conversations and what my partner was thinking was assumed to be the same. Only time would tell the vast difference between our ability to walk the talk instead of talking and talking and talking and then skipping over the walking part. An anonymous reader commented on my blog entry titled Narcissists Lack Emotional Depth . She asked me why it was so hard for partners of narcissists to heal. Why we struggled with the grieving process and letting the narcissist go so we could move forward with our lives without being constantly reminded of our losses. I wanted to write a more thorough response than a comment; but before I continue, I'd like to say that my experience may be similar to some of yours---and it might be very different. Perhaps it’s fair to say that we became MORE like the person we were when we met. Especially once the illusion of perfect love faded into pragmatic realities. Infatuation diminishes, sometimes faster than ink can dry on the marriage contract. In a normal relationship, if all goes well and both partners do not develop psychological blocks to emotional maturation, infatuation grows into love. The relationship becomes ever bit as much about the ‘other’ and the ‘children’ as it is about the Self. Instead of feeling entitled to have our needs met by our partner, needs that might not have been met in childhood, we look for ways to meet our partner’s unmet needs, even if they’re unaware of how much they needed us to do this-or-that. I think we call it Growing Up as a couple. Moving beyond the immature selfish self into equalizing our needs on a par with our partners and then, very importantly, believing ourselves to be capable of meeting their needs without resentment, ambivalence or resignation. When a relationship ends suddenly, when something we never expected to happen to us, DOES, we might have an arduous time processing the unexpected. Especially when other people are incapable of empathizing with and validating our experience. It’s like the time my daughter was in a car accident on her way back to her apartment after doing laundry at my house. A drunk was speeding around a curve close to midnight and smashed into the driver’s side of her car. There she sat, trapped like a sardine, watching the little birdies spin around her head while her brain lagged making sense of the chaos. She was out of it for awhile. Her adrenalin soared and she managed to kick her smashed door open, even after a man had stopped and said she’d have to sit there until a rescue team could cut her door open. The oncoming freeway traffic was swerving around her car, terrifying her of being hit again and she doesn’t even remember this part fully, but she escaped her car and then started acting like a crazy person dodging in and out of traffic picking up her laundry strewn all across the highway. The back of her car had been ripped off, like opening a box of Twinkies when you’re in a hurry. In retrospect, picking up laundry was a stupid thing to do, even self-destructive and dangerous, but that’s about how crazy human beings can be when the unexpected happens. You say to yourself, “I cannot BELIEVE someone hit my car at 100 mph! I cannot BELIEVE what just happened!" and while you can’t BELIEVE what just happened, you’re acting like you’re Fruit Loops or even worse, Cocoa Puffs. You are not grounded in reality, you’re suspended above planet earth with one foot in LaLaLand and the other hopefully NOT on the accelerator. The next day, after she had been released from the hospital with a broken collarbone and had to sleep in our family room easy chair for six weeks, she said to me with eyes full of horror, “What person in their right mind kicks their door open and races through traffic to save their panties?” But that’s what she did and there’s no denying it. Lucky for her, she didn’t get hit by freeway traffic. Paramedics arrived in five minutes to save her from herself which they gladly did since she’d been serving them Starbuck’s coffee for years. They saw her pink punked-out hair and shouted, "It's the coffee shop girl! The one who calls us angels!" My daughter believes they gave her extra-special care because she always called them angels when they came in her store. I tend to believe it's because they occasionally got a free coffee out of her. A good cup of hot joe goes a long way towards building a relationship. The paramedics reciprocated her kindness and made sure she didn't have to lie next to the drunk while they took care of him. Thank God they were trained in emergency procedures and recognized a woman in shock, temporarily traumatized by what she could not see coming from behind because she didn't have eyes in the back of her head. Lucky girl. She'd never get asked out if she had four eyes. Not that she gets asked out a lot now but a mother can always hope, right? At least her hair isn't pink anymore. Until our brains can put order to the chaos, we act unconsciously, outside ourselves. We do things we’d never do under ordinary circumstances. Other people who do not understand the shock of beinghit from behind by someone we trusted, might look at us and assume we’re fools or that we are and always were one grain short of a full box of cereal. Within short order, if we’re lucky, the little birdies circling our brains will stop going tweet and we’ll get ourselves off the highway and out of harm’s way. If we’re really lucky, an emergency vehicle will show up and well-schooled paramedics will check us for injuries and sooth us back to reality by taking charge because obviously, we can’t. At least not for a little while. We’re confused. We need help. But most of all, we need support that respects our temporary frailty and respects our weakness by promising under the Hippocratic oath to do no harm. One of the first questions resolved by the police, and bless them for setting my daughter’s mind at ease, was the assignation of fault and blame. “It wasn’t your fault,” the cops reassured her. “He was speeding and driving drunk and now he’s in jail where he belongs for breaking the law and putting your life in danger.” That settled her mental obsession wondering whose fault it was and how she might avoid a similar accident. What she had done wrong and how could she fix her driving if she’d been negligent in seeing warning signs and posted speed limits. Well, she didn’t do anything wrong. She was obeying the law like a good citizen when someone determined themselves superior to the rules society sets to protect us from each other and like an intoxicated fool, smashed into the side of her car without even realizing what he was doing. He said in his defense that he had lost control. As if that's an excuse for almost killing someone. But the thing is, he let himself get out of control in the first place. He could have applied the brakes at the bar, in the parking lot, or stopped himself at numerous points along the way and he didn’t. As they say, “Shit happens” and no matter how obedient, good, conscientious or courteous you may be, not everyone else is. People break the rules. They hurt others. They blame everyone else by putting up a good fight to avoid responsibility for their choices. In the end, the law decides who is at fault and who isn’t and who pays the price and who doesn’t. In a law-abiding and CIVIL SOCIETY, the guilty are penalized; thus releasing the innocent from their natural instincts to question themselves as to what they did wrong and how they can protect everyone in the future, including themselves. The conscientious are driven to take responsibility, not avoid it. The narcissist is a highway menace. A Good-Time-Charlie without brakes who endangers others because he-or-she doesn’t LIKE being controlled. Since they lack moral discipline, any restriction on their behavior is resented as control and nobody is gonna tell them what to do, especially not some road sign or social contract. It’s all about the narcissist’s freedom to do as they please and any taboo or rule regulating (and protecting the N’s freedoms, too) is rebelled against. The only way to negotiate some kind of reasonable safety in a society replete with narcissistic individuals, is to seek justice. That means assigning fault and blame where fault and blame are due and not expecting someone like my daughter to say, “Okay. I’m half responsible for my accident because I share the road with drunks.” That would be a legal injustice making a mockery of what we know to be true. It only takes one drunk to cause an accident and the only person responsible for that accident, is the drunk without a foot on the brakes. What legal justice did to restore my daughter’s sense of safety again was educative. I was able to watch her start healing once she had been absolved of fault for only doing what millions of people do every day---driving on the same road as everybody else. She did not spiral into guilt and self-blame that cannot be resolved because it was based on a lie. She did nothing wrong. She cannot suffer remorse for guilt that was not hers to suffer. The law saved her from illegitimate suffering wondering how she could prevent this from happening again. She can’t. Not if she bore no responsibility for causing the accident in the first place. She’d go half-crazy if she started checking her rear-view mirror for fast drivers or refusing to drive in the dark because she couldn’t see dangerous drunks or never doing her laundry again because maybe that is why he hit her. She did nothing wrong and even with legal support telling her this, I had to remind her of the fact over and over and over again. Sensible, good-hearted people are prone towards internal examination of the self as cause to the consequences in their lives. I have said this before, in my way of viewing the narcissistic relationship, it’s another accident on life’s freeway. Perhaps there were red flags and stop lights and street signs alerting me to danger ahead but then again, maybe there weren’t. Maybe anybody could have met and partnered with a narcissist, someone who for all intents and purposes, did not intend to cause an accident but refused to step on the brakes if he or she was having FUN. As long as our society pretends there is NO FAULT and NO BLAME to be assigned to a broken marriage; as long as we purport the silly cliché that it takes ‘two to make a marriage’ without realizing it only takes one to break it; as long as people insist we had something to do with the DEMISE of our relationship, or that we didn’t work hard enough or try hard enough or care enough to work out the problems inherent in any relationship, we are prone to self-doubt and self-blame trapping us in an endless spiral of prolonged and complicated grief. When we see judgment or indifference in other people’s eyes, we tend to isolate ourselves, withdraw into silence that may lead to depression and prolonged grief. It’s the betrayal or ignorance of the bystander that makes it hard for us to let go of self-blame and move forward. Here are four key steps to consider if you are grieving the shock and trauma of the narcissistic relationship: 1-Don’t isolate. You know you want too; but don’t! 2-Ask for support but make sure your support is experienced in trauma. You would not go to the bread store for a quart of milk. Don’t go to your neighbors for something thay cannot give. 3-Establish a daily regime. Getting back to normal will reground us in reality and occupy our minds when we might start obsessing. Sometimes keeping busy helps us feel better. 4-Take care of your health even though most of us don’t. Especially since a long grieving process might trigger depression and we won’t care enough about ourselves to get out of bed. Avoiding escapist substances like alcohol, drugs and especially anxiety-producing situations (like a new love interest too soon) graces us with adequate time to cope with our lives. I believe with every fiber of my being that anyone with a generous heart, a moral conscience and the intention to create a safe relationship with a partner, is capable of being sideswiped by a narcissist. I also believe that there is one person at fault for the stagnated or even abusive relationship, and that is the narcissist. I will also be so bold as to say that there is no one who works harder to save the marriage and support their partner than the non-N spouse. When we have our reality validated by someone who shares the same experience and we know that that person is a GOOD person of integrity and conscience, then our healing process gets a kick-start. Our truth must be heard in order to release us from illegitimate blame and guilt. Until our experience is validated and supported by experienced people like ourselves, it's far to easy to believe the lie that we are trapped in a wrecked self without any hope of escape. From the narcissist continuum blog!! Hope this helped Quietude... it did for me...
Jul 19 - 1PM (Reply to #6)
James (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

A personal view

Invalidation to me is a kind of passive aggressive stands whenever we relate (or not relate) to a person. Invalidation silently sends out a message that your feeling and views are not important to me. So in this passive aggressive way it’s a silent injury leaving a psychological and emotional denial of that person. I believe that validation is so important I often found myself stating just that. “I validate what you said and feel, but I sorry I don’t see it that way”. So by doing this I let them know I heard what they said. I am trying to understand what they felt but at the same time I need them to hear what I said and what I felt. Whenever I validate someone I want that same validation back and given to me. I often wonder if invalidation a kind of mental and emotional abuse. As for me if I didn’t try to validate a person, to me it is a kind of abuse. As a father, validating my children is very important. I want them to know I try too hear and try to feel what they believe is important. So to me, validating my children is a very important part of being a parent. Growing up in the era that children should only be seen and never heard made me feel not being validated and that what I felt is important wasn’t simply because I was a child. I won’t do that to my children.
Jul 19 - 4PM (Reply to #7)
quietude (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

james

Thanks for this. I agree that we do TRY to at least validate. We may not always get it right, but at least we understand the basic purpose. That is, not to ever minimize feelings of others. Invalidation most certainly FEELS like more abuse...but I think that people who care about us and may not validate us properly are doing so because they aren't educated on the matter. Then again...yes, there are just some mean people out there.
Jul 19 - 8AM (Reply to #4)
quietude (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

thanks

Very insightful liselotte, thank you for sharing. I liked the part that described a narcissist as a 'good time charlie without breaks'. That gives a vivid image of an out of control crazy person speeding down the highway, without a thought given to anyone around them. That poor girl was well taken care of by people who recognize trauma when they see it. That's why it's so important to really only share what happens to us at the hands of an N, with professionals, or people who have been through similar. The scars from an N are all deeply embedded inside (besides the physical ailments they give us as well). Nobody 'sees' the damage. It's so difficult trying to relay information to those outside of the 'knowledge' of this trauma. You just can't. They don't understand you may have some PTSD, as to why you are acting a certain way. You see their impatience because they think you should just really cheer up and stop being negative. They don't say it exactly, the message comes though in other ways. So I've resolved that I will "act" a certain way around them, and keep managing my stress with people who truly will empathize.
Jul 19 - 6PM (Reply to #5)
James (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Non-validation

quitetude, I see a dark side to this inability or reluctances to not validate a person even if those people are not present at the time. I need to take a family member too explain this. Once my sister called me and told me how an old friend of hers, we will call her friend H. How the H lost a young daughter (she was in her early twenties) under a strange situation. How H’s daughter was found dead in her bed by her bf who discover her. How no one knew how H's daughter died. H’s daughter struggled with a drug problem most of her young life. My sister went on to tell me how it affected her entire family stating “oh, Jim there hasn’t been a dry eye in the house for days”. Of course I gave my sister my sympathy and validation how her family must be feeling. But what bug me was how her friend H wasn’t part of her description of the event. I went on to ask about H and how she was dealing with this great loss. My sister’s reply was “oh, she is a mess Jim and I don’t know how she is dealing with it”. Then again the conversation went back to my sister. My sister is a draining person so I never spend that much time on the phone with her personally. I often wonder how other people feel whenever they talk to her? Anyway after the phone call I felt the call was about my sister and not really about H and her daughter. I never experienced a sense of validation from my sister concerning H’s emotional state during this time of crisis. The whole conversation just left me cold. My sister knows I knew this person but she never offered to let me contact H to express my support and sadness for H’s loss but in all honesty I didn’t ask for H’s number. I thing I learned over the many years with my sister is how she always kept me at a distance with her and her friends. Once again like many times with my sister I didn’t feel her need to validate anyone’s feeling but her own. Allow me to tell you what my position is these days with my sister. We don’t talk anymore; in fact she too is part of my personal NC. She has a son who still (to my knowledge) lives in her home but hates her. She has a daughter who doesn’t spend much time at home but travel from school to school continuing her schooling, I think she might be on getting her Master at this time. Oh, did I tell you this daughter is their "golden girl" no, I don't believe I did. A husband who does what he wants spending most of his free time helping the homeless and exploring his own spirituality. Where is my sister at in her life? Well currently because we no longer talk anymore I assume she is where I left her. Her working all the hours her company will give her so she can keep her precious 150+k house the only thing I think she ever really loved. Drinking but no doubt still denying her has a drinking problem. Telling other people how her husband doesn’t help out enough and always hated the house. Telling other people like she has told me that her son acts like that “because that’s just the way he is”. Where is my sister today? Personally I don’t care! Why? Because like H, she never once in all the many years I knew her ever tried to validate my feeling. In those years we were in contact it was always about her and never about me. I still do hope maybe she will have the life she tells others and herself she has. But in all honesty I don’t think this will happen. Yes, I believe there is a dark side to not being able or willing to validate other people’s feeling and views. The price is sooner or later; these people will get tried of it and then simply just walk away from you.. http://james-personalitydisorder.blogspot.com/
Jul 17 - 9PM
Barbara (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

invalidation.

oh puhlleeeze.... this follow the line from that stupid cult book, 'The Secret.' Blech! http://www.lisaescott.com/forum/2009/07/02/when-your-friends-family-dont-get-it-about-narcissist You do NOT draw these horrible people to you. If you read WOMEN WHO LOVE PSYCHOPATHS - you're targeted by evil. TARGETED. ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Articles & information for abuse victims - Updated Daily Online Coaching for Victims of Narcissists/ Psychopaths
Jul 18 - 9AM (Reply to #2)
quietude (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Barbara

Thanks, Barbara...it's good to come here and to get RE-validated!!