The Inner Judge

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#1 Nov 10 - 4AM

empath

The Inner Judge

Sam Vaknin writes on the Narcissist's Inner Judge:

http://samvak.tripod.com/narcissistsuperego.html

I chose to leave the N. I tell myself I left with dignity and feel somewhat relieved that even though I have broken NC and conversed with him, I have not "gone back to him" or been in his presence. I do not want to go back to that crazy world of his and my rose colored glasses are off forever.

I still feel wounded though. Part of me is ashamed for allowing the whole relationshit to happen in the first place. Part of me is embarrassed at my leaving because it had to get "that bad" before I left. Where I let the feelings pile up so much in a heap of denial that it felt like my options were to either to choose between dying of hunger or dying of thirst...or to just get out.

I know he is disordered. I know he is unfixable. I know he was abusive and cruel to me, and to many others including all the OW that he so gallantly kept "hidden" from me, I know he is not a person who contributes value to my life...and that is the kindest way I can phrase that.

And I don't understand why, when I truly felt I was making such progress..why I have been triggered for over a week now, by a simple "Happy Birthday" email from him, after 4 weeks of NC.

I know I shouldn't care what he thinks of me and I know I shouldn't allow another person to define me...yet my confidence is really shaken, and I feel ...inferior. Used. Exploited. Gullible. He knew his intentions were never to give anything "real" to me, he knew what he was all along, and he knew what he was doing, and he knew where it was going. That I stayed so long with him...6 years...and lived on those crumbs for the last 5...makes me feel awful about myself.

Sam Vaknin says the N has an Inner Judge. I feel as though I've allowed the N to become my Inner Judge. I am pretty sure that's how I thought when I was with him, and I don't understand why that kind of negative thinking would return now. I thought I was getting so much better and stronger and I feel like I've backtracked so much.

How do you get through this? Is this "normal"? How do you make that unhealthy thinking go away? I know better than to allow myself to be judged according to him, yet I still feel that way and I don't know why.

Please, if anyone has some insight they would be willing to share, please do. I am really feeling wrecked again and haven't felt this bad since I left him...in January, for heaven's sake, Nearly a year ago. I am pissed that I cannot seem to shake myself out of it and just move on after all this time. This can't possibly be good or normal, and I am sure he is not feeling any pain. If he is, he's got his ways of numbing it. I feel like my pain is numbing me.

#2 Nov 10 - 11PM

empath

great blog site

This article also helped. Found this through a link on another post here. This man speaks brilliantly on NPD, from personal experience, regrettably. http://lorenzo-thinkingoutaloud.blogspot.com/2011/05/narcissism-ego-defence-as-self-delusion.html

#3 Nov 11 - 12AM (Reply to #23)

empath

another helpful article...

On releasing regret, from Beliefnet. This article has a Christian orientation (and misquote of the Bible ---its seventy times seven, not seventy seven times that Jesus advised us to forgive). Even if you are not Christian, working through the five steps here seems good common sense

#4 Nov 10 - 3PM

onwithmylife

Empath

you who speaks so well for all of us, do not feel bad, I am nearly 3 years out and when I saw the man recently by accident at a store, he was judging me by saying he saw my ad on a dating website, he had to say it 2 times to guilt me and when i said you dumped me,he had to shut back no, you dumped me. to lay the pile of garbage onto me. i told my therapist all this and he said he is not the judge of your worth and never will be and he of all people with so many failed relationships and children who never talk to him. We must be our own judges and i am still learning this 3 years out, do not be discouraged, it is a long haul, i was glad to see the miserable man again, he thinks in his disordered brain i was unfaithful to him when he moved because years ago when we broke up, and then reconnected, i told him innocently when he asked what i was doing during that time, I had met a man for coffee, so big deal, but he never forgot that comment and still hangs onto to it to this day. Boy did he look bad, old, yellowy, lost height, not a happy camper.

#5 Nov 10 - 7PM (Reply to #21)

empath

onwithmylife

Thank you for sharing that. The N I was with told me that I was the one who cut everything off. He said it just like that...not that I ended the relationship or that we broke up...his take on it was that I had cut everything off. And this was after I had backed away from him, and after he pushed me to please let him know why i was avoiding him. I felt like I owed him and explanation, and I felt like he would be able to understand and would actually reciprocate, so I laid all of my cards bare on the table, and got ST in response. I can only imagine he was expecting me to just get over that pesky little tendency I have for having feelings lol. At that point, I did not see any other option except to just walk away. I was not about to try to extract love and emotion from a reluctant source, and at least I recognized his ST that time for the cruel and abusive act that it was. No normal decent person would have reacted as he did. Another person would have said how they felt, even if how they felt was not the same or what they thought the other person wanted to hear. Giving St instead is barbaric and inhumane. And then the hoovering began...which really made no sense to me. It was like, if you don't want me, then why do you still want me? Thank God for finding this site, which helped put all of that bizarre behavior into perspective.

#6 Nov 10 - 3PM

mmp526

Empath- I too get that Inner

Empath- I too get that Inner Judged feeling from him. Maybe this is a part of the healing- a hurdle we have to get over. But I definetly understand what you are saying.

#7 Nov 10 - 7AM

Hermes

Winter. So well said

Yes, Winter! This is so well said: "Yes, it takes time to differentiate a narc relationship from a difficult relationship which needs to be worked on. Yes, there are "difficult" relationship and there are "difficult" natures. It does not mean anytime we encounter difficulty in a relationship we need to run away immediately. Almost any serious longterm relationship requires compromises, tolerance, sometimes sacrifices." Precisely! No relationship, by that I mean a non-disordered relationship, is always easy. Normal people have good and less good moments. Normal people have rows, get cross with each other, but the feeling is different to N-aggravation. It takes a while to discover (and it is imperceptible) that something more than "difficult" is going on. A relationship or marriage with an NPD is impossible, and often some considerable time passes before the very confusing state of affairs strts to become obvious. By that time, the toxic environment has started to take its toll, and we may not be aware of it altogether. Imagine a room slowly filling with smoke, but the smoke alarm has not triggered. You are aware something is not right, but exactly what you are not yet sure. As I said before, most of us are unaware, or were unaware, that a sizeable percentage of the population have some kind of personality disorder, or other mental illness. These disorders are not immediately noticeable in the way a physical disability is noticeable. Hope everyone is having a reasonably good day. Best wishes (from Europe) Hermes

#8 Nov 10 - 7AM

Winter

Empath

There are few things which came to my mind when I read your post: - You are only (!) 4 weeks NC and not a year. I know, you were not in a relationship since January, but you had contact. Maintaining contact does not allow us to start to heal. Your brains process new information while you are maintaining contact. My point here is it has not been too long on your path to recovery. - Being triggered by a "simple" email is more than normal. It is NATURAL. You loved this person, he still count for you regardless the fact that you went NC on him. Your heart despite your head still hold on hope. There is no much you can do, but accept it. Again, it is an early stage, do not be so demanding with yourself. - You abslotely should try not to fight with your thoughts. I cannot emphasize it enough. The more you fight, the stronger they get. Please, accept any thought, any emotions you have. They do not define you. What does define you is how you act and not what you think or feel. - You blame yourself "for allowing the whole relationshit to happen in the first place". Are not you to harsh to yourself? You do believe in good in people. Yes, it takes time to differentiate a narc relationship from a difficult relationship which needs to be worked on. Yes, there are "difficult" relationship and there are "difficult" natures. It does not mean anytime we encounter difficulty in a relationship we need to run away immediately. Almost any serious longterm relationship requires compromises, tolerance, sometimes sacrifices. And another "extreme" is not any better. By that I mean, not being able to adapt and adjust to your partner at all. All I want to say, human relationships are complicate and not black and white. With narc it does become black and white, but only once we got to the point that we know for sure they are. Before that we are confused and just doing our best to safe the relationship, which is very respectful and wise position. Love Winter

#9 Nov 10 - 2PM (Reply to #13)

mmp526

Winter- may I ask you a

Winter- may I ask you a question? I dont mean to change the subject, but you said you dont heal until you are full NC. I am full NC, since May, but my stbx wont sign divorce papers and so now I must take him to court. I have had terrible inner turmoil since he left last Dec. Will my healing be delayed until the divorce is final? Because this would explain why I am still having such a hard time with life right now. Thanks.

#10 Nov 10 - 2PM (Reply to #17)

Winter

Dear mmp526

I am so sorry you have no choice but to deal with him. And I think I was way too categorical when I answered to Empath. I meant those words for her situation, assuming it was a voluntary contact. I am sorry if it did trigger you and maybe those women and men here who needs to stay in contact with narcs due to some objective circoumstances. Honey, I cannot know for sure, but I think this is not quite true n your case. Of course it would be better to cut any contact, it would increase the speed of the healing. But, here are two points for which I think it does not fully apply in your case: 1. You are not making contact with him in order to "clarify things" and not talking about the relationship nor about your or his feelings. You have professional contact only. Not pretending being professional, but I mean the crux of the contact is professional. It is very different. To some degree you are still NC: you know that any emotions (at least from your side) will not resurface in the communication. 2. A friend of mine has been through it. She use to live in a small city and had some business communication with her exN. Poor girl had to see him every single day! If she would go for a run, she would see her exN with the OW, happily walking on the beach. If she would go for shopping, there they are, him bying her gifts. Can you imagine! She said, despite that she could heal all along with seeing him and dealing with him for business all the time. She said, yes, it took her about 6 months just before she stopped feeling the excrutiating pain. She started slowly enjoying her life again, but was still triggered every time she seen him. And then, slowly-slowly the effect on seing him lasted shorter and shorter. And in about 1 year - 1 year and half she was perfectly healed and did not feel anything toward him, even when she saw him. Amazing, isn't it? So, please do not convince yourself that your healing will be delayed. Take it just as an annoying circoumstance that you unfortunately cannot avoid. Love Winter

#11 Nov 10 - 2PM (Reply to #14)

Sparrow

mmp526

It takes quite some time to heal. 1 - 2 years if done right.......you will experience with each stage of NC and your healing journey, freedom and happiness, the feeling of coming full circle. But it does take time, effort, conviction and being true to one self. This can not be done without NC. Once the divorce is final, you can move further into your journey. You will have quite a bit of weight lifted from your shoulders. Good luck and stay strong!

#12 Nov 10 - 2PM (Reply to #15)

mmp526

In addition to the pain, my

In addition to the pain, my mind wants to know WHY he is ignoring the divorce when he is the one to initiate it. I feel like I cant fully move on until he is 100% out of my life.... this healing is taking forEVER! It'll be 1 years since he left me next month. And I still feel like I'm in shock some days- meanwhile he is livin the good life with OW since May. :(

#13 Nov 10 - 7PM (Reply to #16)

empath

mmp

My guess is because it is his passive-aggressive side showing through...it is a way of him staying connected to you so he can drag the game on for as long as it entertains him.

#14 Nov 10 - 6AM

Syren66 (not verified)

Really Great Post

You put that all soooo well! So funny I wrote a post about them feeling like they're being judged...and you know what? I kinda feel like I'm being judged by him at times too. Maybe that's what sparked my need to post? Many times throughout our relationship, I told him I felt like I was interviewing for a job instead of building a life with him...which was my smart ass way of calling him judgmental. He knew pretty early on that I was 'on to him'...but he also knew I wasn't completely sure as to the depths of his disorder. I stayed for 7 years, Empath...believe me, I kick myself every day for staying as long as I did. Most of us were raised to take people at face value and accept/love them for who they are...nobody told us that there are simply some people out there who are unlovable and should be avoided at all costs...we had to find out the hard way and we're learning NOW....after considerable damage having been done to us in the process, that all people aren't inherently 'good' or worth our time. Nothing helps you deliver the curb stomp to the ex better than success elsewhere in your life. Even if that success is represents recovering from life with him...I'm finding that to be one of the most daunting challenges I've ever faced...if I can overcome that, I can handle anything! Keep your chin up! :)

#15 Nov 10 - 6PM (Reply to #11)

empath

thanks again Syren

I appreciate the compliment of being told that I have expressed something well or said something that resonated with and possibly helped another person here on this forum. I especially appreciate it because quite honestly, everything I have ever written on this site has started off with the same thought, which is "OMG this hurts so badly and sucks so much how the fuck did I let this happen?" That has been the launching point for everything I have ever written here, so I am glad my paraphrasing skills are fairly sharp! ;)

#16 Nov 10 - 6AM (Reply to #8)

Hermes

Syrene

Hello Syrene You make a great point there. Very very few people are or were aware of (or even interested in) personality disorders, so it was quite impossible to know in advance or to see what can be only very vague signs at the outset. Indeed over ten years ago, when I escaped from Planet-N, there was precious little information, compared to now, on NPD or PDs in general. My ex-H was actually diagnosed by a psych, and I can recall gaping at the psych when he said those words as never in my life had I heard of NPD. Indeed having had a great family, a wonderful and magic childhood, and happy adult life, mental disorders were something which would not have even come within my scope of interest. The N is not like the common or garden abuser, whose unlovely ways are generally on show pretty early on. They seem like quite normal people, for a while. Indeed I now realise that they can seem TOO normal, that's the problem. Ex-H seemed so solid and normal, kindly and considerate, and all my family had met him before we married (I did not marry young) and the consensus was "you are one lucky girl to have met such a nice man". To see someone like that become, well, insane, before your eyes, is a pretty shaking experience. I can tell you it took me two to three years to get back to myself. Yes, it is a very daunting challenge, but meet it we must. Hermes I stayed for 7 years, Empath...believe me, I kick myself every day for staying as long as I did. Most of us were raised to take people at face value and accept/love them for who they are...nobody told us that there are simply some people out there who are unlovable and should be avoided at all costs...we had to find out the hard way and we're learning NOW....after considerable damage having been done to us in the process, that all people aren't inherently 'good' or worth our time. Nothing helps you deliver the curb stomp to the ex better than success elsewhere in your life. Even if that success is represents recovering from life with him...I'm finding that to be one of the most daunting challenges I've ever faced...if I can overcome that, I can handle anything! Keep your chin up! :)

#17 Nov 10 - 7AM (Reply to #9)

Syren66 (not verified)

On the Surface

I knew he was a narcissist...I even called him one at various times during the dark days (7 years' worth)...I knew the definition of a narcissist, yet I was woefully unaware of how insidious and dark these people really are...had I known that narcissism was just a more gentle word for PSYCHOPATH...I would have left skid marks right then and there. I don't think the psychiatric community have done anyone any favors by re-branding a disorder so vile & destructive to its victims with a relatively innocuous title. Narcissism doesn't resonate very deeply with an audience...however, there is nothing pretty or flowing about the word 'psychopath'...EVERYone knows exactly what that word means and there's nothing to be glorified by being referred to as such. It is an ugly word and perfectly suited for those who wear the label. And....Cluster B? what is THAT?!?! Call these monsters what they are...PSYCHOPATHS. and be done with it. Like you, I was naive beyond belief...from the time I started dating in my early 20's until my split from the ex 16 months ago. I am now 45. As I've said before...heaven help the next psychopath who trips into my life. My eyes are wide open now. :)

#18 Nov 10 - 6PM (Reply to #10)

empath

Syren

This is what I am struggling with...I know he is Bad News and a disordered person. I think making them "monsters" is giving them too much power, and having comoassion for them, for being disordered is giving them too much credit. Where is the balance, in making sense of it all? I have swung back and forth on this so mucthat I am seasick from it. I remember writing a post here about being in love with a monster... yet at the same time I need to believe that he is not a monster and is just another fucked up human being searching for love and acceptance...and of course even though he is clearly going about it in wildly destructive ways. Which is the right answer? Why do I even care? Is there anything more that I need to"understand" other than that this person is not capable of feeling loved and accepted and is not capable of ever truly loving and accepting another human being? What do you do, when your mind cannot reconcile how to "categorize" the expereience? Do you stop trying to do so, and just wait it out, or do you try harder to make sense of it all?

#19 Nov 10 - 5AM

freaked

Dear sweet friend Empath.

imho what you are feeling is normal. you are not a switch to go on and off. you are a beautiful real human being. i also fluctuate between feeling strong and crumbling and getting terrified. i don't even know if it is alright to post my reply, but we are old friends so I just felt like sending you a hug. i guess narcs enjoy watching us writhe and squirm in pain and therefore they do the things they do...all so calculated. so many posts i am reading here are all describing one aspect or another of all that i am dealing with mentally. the road to recovering is hard for each of us I think. Lots of love for you.

#20 Nov 10 - 6PM (Reply to #6)

empath

freaked

I believe it is possible to send hugs in emails. :-) Thank you. Big hug for you too! I feel so disconnected sometimes...I feel like I am putting on the brave face in front of everyone because I am ashamed at having been taken advantage of so thoroughly. I have decided this is something to just hand over to God, and let him heal it. I know I was not made to be used. Nobody deserves to be used, and what it comes down to is...whether we got into our situation willingly or unwittingly...if you see someone is vulnerable and you exploit that, that is your fault. That is your character flaw, your integrity on display. The action of leaving your house unlocked does not justify someone coming in and stealing everything. Ns lack conscience. They are predators. They create pain. I have come to accept that they cause pain, and I am frustrated with myself for having allowed this pain to transform into suffering because I realize that even now, I am allowing that influence to create pain...for so long, I admired him and respected his opinion, in so many way...that way of thinking about him, that I had accustomed myself to over the years...I am aware now that it has not left. I may be having this setback now because of the struggle to find meaning in all of this...my mind wants to sort though and make sense...to say ThIS part was good, THAT part was bad...and its just not worth it to out the time into organizing all of it. I wish I could just put the entire experience in a box and toss it in the trash, yet my mind is still searching for reasons to make sense of why I gave six years of my time to this person.

#21 Nov 10 - 5AM

Hermes

Empath

Hello: It tends to be a bit like that, one step forward and two back, at times. It is also perfectly normal, and try not to force yourself. You can't make thoughts go away, they arrive unbidden. But you can try not to entertain those thoughts. You left him last January, but you mention only four weeks of NC. Four weeks is a short time, and really it would have been best to block emails from the outset. Perhaps it would be best to do that now? As you will have read everywhere on this forum, and Lisa's advice, one cannot recover or move forward if there is contact. Contact is toxic. That is why you feel the way you do now. It is a slow process, because we are traumatized from the N-experience. There is shock, in the form of PTS, don't doubt it. Don't beat yourself up. Be kind to yourself, keep as busy as you can, and as healthy as you can. Good luck Hermes

#22 Nov 10 - 5AM (Reply to #2)

empath

thank you

Thank you Hermes. I appreciate your advice.

#23 Nov 10 - 7PM (Reply to #3)

Redhead1

Empath

I know where you are coming from. IMO, loving myself enough to protect my heart is a new way of living for me. I will be coasting along doing what is good for me and thoughts will creep in. As time goes by, those thoughts come less and less. Give it time, you are learning something new. Practice will make perfect. I understand it is easy to derail, I still do it from time to time. Let the thoughts come and deal with them and then jump right back on the rail to you. I am nearly 18 months out and it will get better:) Don't give up or be hard on yourself. There is nothing wrong with you, it's the screwed up people in the world that have it all wrong. BIG HUG

#24 Nov 10 - 8PM (Reply to #4)

empath

redhead

Thanks! :-) Big hug to you too. I am feeling very lost and it is great comfort to read the responses here and know that I will find my way again soon.

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