I Played the Out Narc the Narc Game and Played with Fire...HELP!

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#1 Oct 3 - 11AM

Lisa87

I Played the Out Narc the Narc Game and Played with Fire...HELP!

Do not recommend playing the game. We are not on the same playing field. They are sick and disordered and even if we stay strong, with our wall up, etc., they manage to somehow know how to mindfuck us. I acted like I don't care and I was the one who always left him first. He pushes the right buttons and acts all nice and I thought I could use him for sex, comforting, nice dinners, etc. but his sex addiction and drinking problem overshadowed the good. I just can't believe the man that is so loving and affectionate and so caring during sex can play such mindfuck games with your head. All the while, kissing and holding, asking me why I won't do swinging, go to sex clubs, have sex with other men while he watches, or have me do the lesbian thing, and whatever else falls into that category. I do not need that type of sex to enjoy it or have fun in the bedroom. I am very open and I know he likes that about me, but I draw the line. He is trying to control me and be his sex slave. He went on for hours and hours and hours for 2 nights in a row, telling me how great I am but that I am a bit of a prude if I'm not willing to do those things. Finally I said well maybe I am a prude! I know that even if I did do everything he wanted sexually, it wouldn't be enough and I told him that. He said it would and he would marry me IF I was more sexual like him. WTF!!!!! Please I know this breaches on a sticky subject but have any of you done this stuff to please your narc and he still D&D'd you?? He is like a drug addict looking for the next high and then the bar is raised and it just goes higher and higher. Last year, he told me he was going through a "sex" phase that he wanted to be wild and crazy but after a year or so he wanted to settle down and marry me. His mask is off and I know him too well. He mentioned that he feels comfortable with me so I am getting all of him...good and bad. He is very generous and now is holding the bar up sexually so he won't be taking me on trips or shopping sprees unless I give in to him...which I never ever will. Well I had a fit and basically attacked him, told him to stop contacting me, why won't he leave me alone. I do not call, text or contact him first, ever. I have gone NC and blocked for months at a time but because we live 1 mi away and work at same company I thought I could keep him in my life at a distance, but use him for only the good parts. I learned my lesson ladies and need to go NC again. I do have a heart, I do have emotions and feelings and shut them off with him. I looked at him and asked him if he had any emotions at all, he said yes, but he definitely does not. I told him I want a man who loves ME for ME not because he wants to change me and make me fuck other men while he watches. OMG...I am spinning today and need support from you guys!! What man wants to watch the woman he loves screw other men??? I am definitely not a prude at all, not even close!! I feel like there is a sex craze out there that I am never going to find a monogamous man. I have no interest in swinging, sex clubs, etc but know many married people that are into that stuff and it is just not for me. I am a beautiful, smart, happy, secure woman and fell in love with this smart, charming, wonderful man....that never existed : ( Any of you done the swinging, sex clubs with your Narc and he still D&D'd you? Not that I am considering it but just curious. I believe it would be more ammunition he would use against me cause now I could be called a whore or slut (BTW he never has called me a name or even bitch) Thanks!! Lisa

#2 Oct 4 - 12AM

empath

Outnarcing the narc...

I am at a point where I am considering telling the Narc on his next Hoover...that "it's not him, it's me"...and that I've finally decided to accept that I'm a lesbian. Which I'm not, and I do have gay friends including my bff. I just thought perhaps telling the N would cause him to stop hovering, and perhaps even make him question his own ability to satisfy a woman...we had 6 years of crazy wild sex, and i think it would make his head spin to think I was no longer devoted to the Great Almighty C*ck. Is this a good way to make him go away nicely?

#3 Oct 4 - 9AM (Reply to #30)

Goldie

LOL Empath, and the answer is NO

He's a narc, he would just get excited over that one. Oh goodie, now I can have 3 ways with Empath and her woman friends. This is how they think. He would take this as a good thing. And if you say, it's not you it's me, he most likely already thought that was the case, so he'll say, yes, Empath I'm so glad you see the truth now, this is what I have known all along. They take no responsibility for their actions and their part, we are the crazy one's in their eyes. God bless, Goldie

#4 Oct 4 - 10AM (Reply to #32)

Lisa87

Empath, Goldie is Right

Mine would have jumped at me like a pig in shit if I told him I was lesbian or bi-sexual. And yes, that will be used as ammunition or something they will hold against you for sure. Even if I gave in to his manipulations and went along with his sick behavior, it would be used against me I can guarantee. They are so sick, not worth our words or energy to engage them in any way shape or form...NC NC NC. I admire and respect all of your wisdom ladies and for putting me back on track and seeing things clearly. My glasses were fogged in Narcville and because I know him so well and we have a past he felt it was okay to try and manipulate me some more. He is also trying to make me into his little porn star by asking me if I wanted breast impants too. I do not want them or need them. Once his mask came off I got the good, bad and ugly and thats enough to keep me away forever. I think this time its mutual and he won't hoover me again anyway. Finally asked him why he won't leave me alone and wont stop calling or texting when I don't reply for months, have asked him to please never contact me again (several times) I've blocked him, gone NC and I have never called or texted him first. When I laid it out there hopefully he understands how pathetic he looks and I have no interest in being with him again after all he has put me through. NC NC NC

#5 Oct 4 - 10AM (Reply to #31)

empath

LOL Goldie

I know I shouldn't spend any time on trying to get one over on him...I know you can't outnarc a narc. I did enjoy thinking about this for a bit though...thought it would turn his thinking upside down, at least fora bit...and put an end to his hoovering. I have not seen him since January and made the mistake of slipping with my NC in September...and now just want to close the door gently and firmly, because he has laid the "I miss you" and the "I don't blame you" and the "I hope we can maintain the friendship and the working relationship" and the best one yet, "I value the friendship and the working relationship"...which is all a load of BS. I did get the opportunity to tell him that his actions don't line up with his words, and that if he valued me, he'd still be a part of my life...to which he really had no reply other than admission that he knows he is effed up. I want to find the way to gently put the lid back on Pandora's Box and move on. Until I do, I feel as though energetically I am "holding a space" for him, and that he senses this and will not too hovering until he feels he has vindicated himself for my having left his sorry disordered self. Would you believe that in my conversation with him, I actually shared with him that I thought he may have a personality disorder and let him know it was called NPD. I said it in the most nonjudgmental, nonthreatening way, and in the context of he and I always being able to say whatever is on our minds with regard to our opinions...we never fought or had conflict, there was always that ability to share opinion and to debate without it becoming a personal slight. I cannot pretend that I was surprised when, after sharing about NPD...his first reaction was to admit something was not right, and then go on to blame work stress...and then out of the blue an hour and a half later, he sent me an email letting me know that he was a bit too humble to have NPD although he probably had something in between that and "normal". LOL! I advised him to go deeper and find out what NS is...andhe responded that he didn't,t want to know how effed up he was, and that what he does know is that he misses me. So,rather than let him think I am holding a space for him, I need to put the lid on this and really be done with him...before he decides to "punish" me for having left him as I did. I did apologize to him for leaving, and told him he was unkind to me and even if I cared about him, I had to care about me more. All that "healing conversation" we had, that would have been a beautiful experience with an ex....was totally a waste of time with the N. He is, by his own assessment, just a victim of overwork and stress and "a bit too humble" to have NPD. I am grateful for the insight I have gained here on this forum. Now I know beyond knowing thefutility of being what Vaknin calls the "malignant optimist"!

#6 Oct 3 - 3PM

Lisa87

Thanks Everyone - Hugs

You are all right and I needed the reality slap to make me stay away for good. I've been alone since I left my ex H and have many many friends who I keep busy with. I do not need a man but admit I was looking for affection one night after going through emotional turmoil with my ex-husband. Got that and then some, I learned my lesson, he doesn't have an emotion in his body. He is very very good at manipulating and control and that is how it ended, with the uttermost way he can think to try and control me, sick bastard. I will say that I reached out to everyone, not to be personally attacked, but to get my thoughts out there. I do need to stay NC for good going forward and thought that my being upfront would help all the others in their healing as well. It was only because of our living close by and working at same company that I made the mistake of thinking it would be okay to keep him at bay since he would not stop hoovering. I WAS WRONG, VERY WRONG and learned my lesson, that was what was behind me writing this post but perhaps it came out in a different way. I am at work and trying to be very brief while posting.

#7 Oct 3 - 5PM (Reply to #27)

Hunter

Lisa87

You took our hard responses like a champion!! Please follow through with a therapist! Save this in your favorites just in case you get tempted! Keep us posted on your progress!! Hunter

#8 Oct 3 - 5PM (Reply to #28)

spinning

Lisa87, Ditto to

what Hunter said! Great work! Sincerely (not) spinning. I REFUSE TO FOR ANY MAN, FOR ANY ONE!

spinning

#9 Oct 3 - 2PM

Bitter-sweet

Lisa 87

A few months ago, NeverLookBack used to post here regularly. Her N was very much like yours- asking her to do all sorts of things she was uncomfortable with, the kind of things you mention. If you can find her posts, I think they would help you. She showed great strength and got through, leaving the N right behind. My N was this type too. His suggestions were so outrageous that I once asked him if he was a sex addict. Of course he denied it, but that was the turning point for me. I just couldn't and wouldn't do what he wanted.

#10 Oct 3 - 1PM

Sunafterrain

Lisa

It is absolutely DISGUSTING that a man would call you a prude if you will not participate in his DEVIANT sexual behavior. Mine was headed that way, but I refused to do it and comparatively to your disordered one, what he was asking of me wasn't nearly as bad, BUT that isn't the point, the point is that I felt like an OBJECT and if I participated, that's ALL I would be. The behaviors would probably escalate. NO WAY. About this prude bullshit, that's all it is BULLSHIT! It's one thing to have a HEALTHY perspective of sex and that it's enjoyable and fun! Yes, sex play is GREAT, in the context of a LOVING HEALTHY RELATIONSHIP. This will NEVER happen with a psychopath. I wonder how many of us truly knew in our hearts that we were being subjected to OBJECTIFICATION or some other deviant indirect sexual abuse, such as the affairs these people were having on the side to get their deviant needs met. Whether overt or covert, a psychopath, monogamy and a lack of sexual DEVIANCY is a CONTRADICTION in terms. No man who loved you would call you such names, threaten your sexuality in the digusting ways yours has. That you feel nothing for this man and can keep it to using him for sex, is a lie you're telling yourself to keep from being alone and to stay INVOLVED while only becoming more psychologically SICK. I really truly hope you will get therapy, particularly for the sake of your children, if not yourself initially. He is taking you to the pits of hell and you're allowing it. You've been NC several times and say you're strong and that is the furthest from the truth. what will build your strength is to be alone, get your butt into therapy and figure out WHY you want this man and WHY you are DEATHLY afraid to be alone!

#11 Oct 3 - 12PM

Lisa87

Getting back on wagon, got off and it was a bumpy ride

maybe will seek therapy to find out why I thought I could play at his game and come out ahead. The man I want I am having a hard time finding, all the men I have dated have even bigger issues so I move on quickly. The old Narc just keeps coming back and I let him in and that was wrong. I am very very strong but it is hard to meet a nice man and I thought that I already know his issues and can deal with them...but I cannot. I have great self esteem which has helped me to block him and go NC at the drop of a dime 3-4 times. I was NC for 4 months this last time and ran into him on his birthday and felt sorry for him, yup that emphathetic side fell for him sitting at the bar all alone...ugh...a few drinks and back to Narcville I went! Well I'm out of narcville now and hope that nice man will enter my life, I have made room for him, but he is taking the long road to find me! btw, thanks to you all, you ladies rock! Hunter, all your posts are dead on!! hugs......

#12 Oct 3 - 12PM (Reply to #22)

Hunter

I'm telling you something

I'm telling you something deep inside is causing you to attrack bad men!! I think you are missing a key point!! Love yourself first! Get to the therapist !! Oxox Hunter

#13 Oct 3 - 12PM (Reply to #23)

Lisa87

I do love myself

I have tons of male and female friends who I love dearly and they love me. I have dated some very nice men, not commitment material. What I meant to say is that they were not right for me so I moved on. I should not have said I am attracting bad men, that is not the case at all. Just not the right man for me, but as a single mother with kids I don't have time to put myself out there either. These were moments of weakness, quick fleeing, where my self esteem might be at a low point, but I pick myself up quickly and brush myself off! I do appreciate all your advice...you all rock!!

#14 Oct 3 - 12PM

Hunter

"I told him I want a man who

"I told him I want a man who loves ME for ME not because he wants to change me and make me fuck other men" Really?? I thought you were using him?? You need to understand what you are doing here ?? You are playing with fire and getting Burned! I suggest you seek thearpy!! You are chasing a dream and the dream is a nightmare! You going to him for any reason, sex or otherwise says there is a problem that is deep within you!! Again a good thearpist will help you sort this out and get to the core! Stay Strong Hunter

#15 Oct 3 - 12PM (Reply to #16)

Lisa87

Hunter

thought I could use him for sex, dinners, travel and quick nights out without seeing the bad side of him. I don't have a lot of free time (single mother of 2 boys with lots of friends) but once in a while I am free and thought I could let him in instead of being alone. He lives 1/2 mile away and because we have history....yada yada. I was very wrong. I stayed strong for 7 months last year and did not sleep with him or anything so I know what I need to do and will do it. Just wanted to get my thoughts out there (yes was having a weak moment) and needed you guys to snap me out of it.

#16 Oct 3 - 1PM (Reply to #17)

Sunafterrain

Lisa

"but once in a while I am free and thought I could let him in instead of being alone." I think you nailed it. At least in part. I can also tell by the way you speak of another good man finding his way into your life. There is a desperation to you in keeping a man in the fold, so to speak. What you need is to BE ALONE. WHy are you so afraid of that? You will NEVER heal and you'll pick another LOSER unless you take time out and quit playing the game with ANY man. We all have our limits, don't we, if we can FEEL, and it's pretty clear that his upping the bar sexually, shows you just what he thinks of you, but you ALREADY think this way of yourself dear because you're "just using him for sex" to a psychopath SCREAMS "I"m a WHORE!" You reached your limit. You're NOT as strong as you think, at least in one area of your life and hers's why: YOU CAN"T BE ALONE. See a therapist. Quickly, before you up this bar too and lose all sense of yourself. It's not worth being a psychopaths whore, Lisa, and that is what your behavior indicates, although you excuse it as something else. If you're as wonderful as you say you are, have children, friends, etc that love you, do them a favor and quit talking about it and SHOW YOURSELF that this is true. Blessings.

#17 Oct 3 - 3PM (Reply to #20)

Susan32

Just say NO

The ex-Psych prof constantly called me a slut if I dressed in a feminine way. If I had given in&had sex with him... it would've vindicated his low view of me. He could've said "See, I told you she was a slut." That's why I said NO. To the bitter end. I gave in enough to tell him I loved him, but not gave in enough to have sex with him. Now, as for setting up the ex-P into thinking he would have sex with me... then left him out in the cold, setting him up... I would've had NO problems with that. Get him revved up for the sex, then dropped him like a hot potato without explanations, remorse, and apologies. I would've had too much SELF RESPECT to treat him with ANY. He is not entitled to respect-however, I would be entitled to treat as I please.

#18 Oct 3 - 1PM (Reply to #18)

Used

sunafterrain

WELL SAID....

#19 Oct 3 - 1PM (Reply to #19)

Tigerlily

Great, Sunafter!

What a wonderful site this is! I`m so grateful I found it!

#20 Oct 3 - 12PM

58 and going strong

NC - NOW!!!! And get some

NC - NOW!!!! And get some therapy to rebuild your self-esteem.

#21 Oct 3 - 12PM

Goldie

Lisa 87

Have any of you done swinging and still been D&D? By this question, I'm wondering if you are still struggling with the concept of you not doing enough to please your Narc and if you do more things, will or would he have been different? This has NOTHING what so ever to do with what you do for or with your Narc. NOTHING!!! He is sick and always will be, there is nothing which you can do to change this, nothing. It will only get worse if you give in, you will then become his sexual slave and god forbid this happen because then he can pull ALL of his toys out of his bag. You could engage in all of the perversion there is to feed and please his deviant disordered sexual appetite and STILL he would screw with you and not be capable of love. I have heard this crap MANY MANY times from women. I love him so much and want to please him. He says that I am a prude or frigid or boring in bed if I don't engage in 3 ways, bisexual sex, BDSM, porno, ect.. He says that he loves me and wants to marry me and has a strong sexual appetite and even though there are other women and men involved, I am the only one he loves. He loves me so much he wants to see others please me and make me happy. He wants to marry me and have an exciting sex life. BLAH BLAH BLAH!!!! This is ALL bullshit, specifically designed to control, manipulate, and destroy your heart, life, and soul and turn you into the sick sexual deviate soulless piece of crap that he is. You are sharing your body with the devil, with the enemy. He has your head so twisted that you cannot even see the lies and destruction of his requests and behavior towards you. Why would you even consider marring this man? Would you actually want to bring children into this sick twisted mess? Think of it this way if you are still struggling with this garbage. You have a 16 year old daughter or neice, she is beautiful, smart, accomplished, loving, pure, and coming to you for advice. Mom, or Auntie she says, I have this boyfriend who I love with all of my heart. He says I am the love of his life and he wants to marry me and raise a family together. The only problem is aside from his drinking problem, is that he wants me to engage in sick, deviant, sexual acts with him and others and when I refuse, he calls me a prude and says that he cannot marry someone like me. Mom, do you think that there is something wrong with me? Do you think I should give in and marry this man? Do you think that I am a prude. Do you think he may one day hurt our children or become inapproprate with them? Help me Mom, I do not understand what he is saying, he seems so loving some of the time. Do you think that he is a good man for me? What would you tell her to do??? SNAP out of it, there is no question here, just NC, NOW!!! God bless, Goldie

#22 Oct 3 - 12PM (Reply to #12)

Lisa87

Thanks Goldie - you are right

I was having a weak moment and have snapped out of it!! feel so stupid for asking the question out of curiousity. You are absolutely right on the money, I have blocked him, gone NC, he was trying to control me and knows I will not be controlled. I let him have it and my wall got partially taken down and was having a weak moment. The wall is being re-built, I am a strong, independent single mother who has wonderful friends and family. I just hate that I have to see him constantly and be reminded of what an ass he is, just want him to go away forever...he was supposed to move out of our town but now is playing games so he will never leave...and he got me my job and we work at same company....he is a pathetic deviant soul...thanks again for my wake up call, you guys all rock!!!

#23 Oct 3 - 12PM (Reply to #13)

Goldie

I am thrilled that you are back to NC

It must be a real strain to have to work with him and for now this may just be the way it is. I would seriously though, look into finding another job. The fact that you weakened once to this manipulation is not a good sign and I don't want to see it happen again. Like a couple of others said, a good therapist is a must right now to help you to strengthen your resolve and stay NC completely. If you ever get tempted, PLEASE remember your children and you do not want this sick sick element to be spilling over into their lives, even if you were able to keep this all secret from them, trust me they would still be living with the sick element because it would be living inside of you. Men who want you to have sex with other men, DO NOT NOT NOT LOVE YOU on any level, you are a sexual receptacle to them and the MONEY means NOTHING. Just because someone spends money on you does NOT mean they love you. Think hooker and how some men due to their addictions spend thousands of dollars on hookers and porn. Does this mean they love the hooker? Hell no, it means that they are addicted to the sex. These PD's LIKE to have BOTH, please do not kid yourself for one second. They like to have the respectable little sex kitten wifey at home (usually once you get married they don't see you as sexual anymore anyway, now you are their mother and someone to have sex with when there is no other supply) and they also like to have the porno, OW, and deviant sexual behavior on the side. They are what you would call SEX PIGS!!! They can never get enough of sexual supply and also keep in mind that there is NO known effective CURE for sexial deviant behavior. We have one of the best known Sexual Treatment Center's in the country, we have housed some seriously sick sexual deviants, they will be the first to tell you that these sick fucks DO NOT get better and when they let them out they only reoffend. Just because it is not rape does not mean that it is not sexual deviant behavior and once that vein of preference is in a man's head...... It NEVER NEVER goes away, so the bullshit notion that he is going to get it out of his system for a year or so, is pure garbage. This is not possible. The treatment and cure for sexual addiction has one of the worst success rates of any of the disorders because it is now a preference and you cannot change or alter sexual preferences. And PLEASE my dear, DO NOT ever ever forget this if you ever get tempted again. God bless and thank you for having the courage to share this post, trust me when I tell you, that this post is also helping hundreds if not thousands of silent women also reading this post and my response goes out to them as well as you. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO SETTLE FOR THIS. This is NOT a reflection on you. You are NOT a prude. You are NOT boring and IF they say they need to move on because you will not play with fire anymore, then LET THEM GO!!! It is NOT o.k. and you deserve so very much more!!! God bless, Goldie

#24 Oct 3 - 11AM

spinning

Hi, Lisa,

You are right. You are playing with fire. If you re-read this post I think you will have the answer you need. What I see is a woman being manipulated and buying into it. This guy's a real turn-off if you ask me. It's so totally all about him and his fetishes and eccentricities. There must be some sort of pay off here for you, though I'll admit I'm having difficulty seeing it. You've gone NC and then wavered back so he must treat you this way. It will only get worse. I say this from experience. Please please please go NC for real, Lisa. This guy has nothing to offer you but pain, confusion, self-doubt and a continual lowering of the bar to where you have to dig a hole to find it. I also speak from experience when I say that there are opportunities for HOT sex with non-disordered men who don't require you sleep with a football team or the cheerleaders for them to get off. This is the truth. Lisa, turn the tables and go NC on his pathetic ass. Let him get someone else to lay so low. You don't need it or want it. The minute you fully own your own attractiveness without weird imposed conditions others will respond. This guy's taking you down and you don't need to go there. You've got a lot going for you and it will all really start happening if you give total NC a chance. I know because it's happening to me at 11 months total NC. My life is full of fun and adventure...I want this for you, too. Most sincerely, (not) spinning. BECAUSE THE MERRY GO ROUND IS TEDIOUS AND REPETITIVE AND MAKES ME SICK TO MY STOMACH!

spinning

#25 Oct 3 - 11AM

Used

have any of you done swinging

have any of you done swinging and sex clubs and he has still d/d you....why would you need to know this?, what does it matter?you wouldnt even consider it ,would you ? would you....when you came and said to were going to PLAY narc at his own game, it was posted that you cannot play them at their own game....they dont lose...they have nothing to lose...except supply,and with the money your narc has, that is not a problem for him....all your going back to him done WAS TO UP THE ANTE FOR HIM....you asked the same question twice...has anyone been d/d after swinging or sex clubs...you wouldnt be asking , if you hadnt given this some thought.....DANGEROUS WATERS.... GET HIM TO MARRY YOU FIRST...SEE WHAT HE SAYS TO THAT?

#26 Oct 3 - 12PM (Reply to #2)

Lisa87

Used and Spinning

Absolutely no chance I would do that or play with fire again. You are right, just a weak moment of curiosity if that makes them stay or be happy but I don't care, he is not for me and never will be. It was probably the closure i needed to believe that he is so disordered. I told him he was a sick psychopath. I just needed to get my thoughts out there to you all cause I was (am) spinning and that is it. I am going NC, I have blocked him and this time will stay that way. The good he provided was travel, nice dinners, generosity to me and my kids and I thought I could keep the good but keep him at a distance. Now I know that cannot happen and came on here to get it out there in writing so I know how stupid I was to play with that Narcisstic fire. Appreciate all you guys and need to be slapped and reminded once again during this long healing process : ( hugs

#27 Oct 3 - 1PM (Reply to #6)

lilliandiane

haha--there is just nothing they won't ask

My N never took me anywhere--no nice dinners; no trips; no expensive jewelry. The sex he wanted was totallly vanilla missionary. He would have had a fit--the idea of me and another man screwing. He one time told me that my going up to visit another guy, have pizza and watch a movie was something he forgave me for--compared it to him in his ongoing 22 year marriage that I had to understand and forgive. I was HIS. The point is, dear, YOU ARE AN OBJECT--HIS OBJECT--and he wants his own porn flick starring you. And don't think he wouldn't secretly film you and post it online. It's not about swinging or kinky sex or experimentation. It's about POWER!! the idea that he could manipulate you into doing this and then he could devalue you later for it is the BIGGEST HIGH FOR HIM ever.

#28 Oct 3 - 1PM (Reply to #7)

Sunafterrain

lilli!!!

BIG HUGS!!! how are you????? I agree, it is about power only, thus the objectification. No matter what the sex is. It can never be a two way street.

#29 Oct 3 - 4PM (Reply to #8)

lilliandiane

thanks, sun

I am good. I am in a new and better (stronger) place. I posted my whole epiphany as "helluva week". I have come belatedly to the realization that the Ns and the socio/pschopaths always win because they have no limits to what they will use to win. The only way people who have feelings and are guided by love and morality win is to not play or stop playing immediately and not look back.

#30 Oct 3 - 4PM (Reply to #9)

Lisa87

Lilli and Sun

Yup so true, I learned my lesson, I am guided by love and morality and he is not, great analogy!

#31 Oct 3 - 12PM (Reply to #3)

Used

lisa87

then your reply to me and spinning,is admirable....you took it on the chin and that is not always easy to do...well done you... you and your kids dont need to have anything he gives you anymore...... you have it all, by you loving your kids and your kids loving you.. NOW THAT IS REALY SOMETHING THAT CANNOT BE BOUGHT, OR BEATEN....THINGS HE WILL NEVER FEEL IN A MILLION YEARS...XXXX

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