Control

fairy wings - I asked you NUMEROUS times to write me off list... but you have taken it upon yourself to interpret what I did and how I did it to turn your poor opinion of me into a personal attack. Again, ANYONE who has problems with what I did or me - PLEASE WRITE ME OFF LIST. These personal attacks and dissection of ANY MEMBER'S BEHAVIOR on the board are inappropriate. Thank you. ~~~~~~~~~ The truth will set you free... but first it will piss you off - Gloria Steinem Visit My Abuse Website

I've only been on this board for a few weeks now. My ExN and I broke up nearly two years ago, but it wasn't until this past fall that I discovered narcissism. This discovery was eye opening and I have considered the articles on this site to be very helpful in my recovery. Its been incredible to have a rational explanation for the irrational hell he put me through. That said, now that I'm reading this post, I must admit I have grown increasingly uncomfortable with the dialogue on this forum and have considered removing my account. I hope Barbara's intentions are good, but in my opinion I feel that her feedback has been very inappropriate on more than one occasion and I feel that she is quite forceful in her opinions. There is no one size fits all in recovery and we all need to move through this process on our own terms.

disagree here. I don't necessarily agree with what Barbara "has done". I think others on the board perhaps can be encouraged to look at things differently which may have meant Ellen not being read-only for a few days. And I don't always agree with Barbara's way of managing things. But she runs the board, it's not necessarily a democracy. However, I don't think it's always appropriate to come on here and say time and again "my life is difficult, I can't keep up non-contact". I'm not saying Ellen does this, but I think there have been times where we need a reminder that we need to look at what we're doing, and change our behaviour. It does sound horrendous what Ellen is going through, however, to change we need to start doing things differently (whether that is total NC, or going to the docs for medication, getting therapy). I don't think what Ellen says would necessarily affect my recovery (Ellen, please don't take this as an attack on you). However I do find it hard reading some things where it appears others aren't taking charge of their lives and their non-contact, and other members of the board don't seem to say "well, what are you doing about it?". And I've probably been guilty of doing that myself, as in not saying something. Yes, we do need support. However, speaking as someone who has been out with a lot of dangerous men, if people say to me time and time again "that's okay, we understand" that doesn't necessarily change my behaviour. While it's great to have support, I did need someone to call me on my behaviour. I had a lot of therapy, the therapist was good in some ways but the analysing and support wasn't the breakthrough for me. It was when she finally told me to set some boundaries and stop being a victim (this wasn't in relation to my relationships with men, it was with my family). It hurt, but I did it. The last guy I was with was awful, what finally woke me up was being on another email group, where I was told "what you are doing is not healthy, and why did you have him back?". That woke me up, and was what I needed. And again, this isn't directed at you Ellen, it's just what helped me. My long list of exes who treated me badly had shoved me around, or "just" emotionally abused me. I didn't see until recently how bad that was. But the last ex threatened to kill me and had carving knifes taped under the kitchen table.... it was only with that happening that I was able to see how bad my other relationships had been, when I talked about this everyone said 'what are you doing?' Yes, it can take years to recover from some aspects of being with narcs, however a lot of recovery can begin to happen fairly quickly. And that's why I think it's important to be supportive, but to also set boundaries/encourage people to do things differently. I may have got out of some of my relationships far earlier if that was the case, because I wasn't being beaten it wasn't easy to spot, but the ones that did me the most damage were two guys I was with years ago, one of them everybody liked. One of them was great with kids, had a stable job, friends, but was totally nuts. It's only now I can see it all and work on myself. And I think that's important. I'm not saying it's anyone's fault if in an abusive relationship, but help to move-on, even if that involves "tough-love". And again, this isn't directed at you Ellen... I think it goes on in other areas of the board. I think support can involve other things such as saying to people "what are you going to do differently to help you move on?"

I was just sent this by a friend of mine who copied what was written so for those of you who wish to know what was censored, here it is: I can't believe that Fri, 02/05/2010 - 18:03 — fairy wings I cannot believe what I just read! You are putting Ellen on read only suspension because she didn't do what you suggested? So if she declines anti depressants and keeps going round the same cycle you will stop her posting on this site? You say you are not a Doctor so how can you know she will not get better without drugs? I chose not to take anything and I have recovered, yet at one point I felt as up and down as Ellen. Surely the whole point of this site is for us to offer support and to not judge anyone regardless of what they chose to do. When I first went to work in the DV sector as a group worker I was told by my line manager at a Women's Centre that we only take women who have already left their partner! I was appalled; I felt that this was prescriptive and probably in line with the lack of understanding the women had already encountered elsewhere. Over the three years I worked there I changed the group to include all women regardless of their status. The women who had already left informed the women who were still living with their partners and could help them in planning to leave safely and to think about what they would need for a life post him. There was more value in learning from each other rather than hearing it all from me or my co-facillitator. I agree if Ellen is going round a cycle and constantly analysing this is doing nothing to move her on, however that has to be her choice; she will move on when she is ready. As women who have been through something similar we must ensure we do not judge someone for not taking the type of action we may feel is in their best interest, even when we are convinced that we are right. We have no right to 'tell' another adult what to do and if we do so we are as abusive as the very men we are condemning. I am sure I phoned Women's Aid many times with the same story, but I was never turned away, never told what to do; I was just listened to and eventually I came to my own realisation of my situation. If someone had said. 'I'm stopping you from phoning her because you are saying the same thing over and over again and you won't accept that you have PTSD and you won't take anti-depressants, I would have been gutted and worse, I would have wanted to utter, 'Et tu, Brute? For we do not expect those we keep close (and trust) to stab us in the groin! I have great respect for you and for the support you have offered me and other women here. I would however be very interested to know your rationale for excluding Ellen Perfectly normal Fri, 02/05/2010 - 16:58 — fairy wings Ellen everything you say is so perfectly normal given what you have been through. Surely the whole point of women supporting women is that we do not berate someone for feeling the same again, but we are supportive and just there for them when they are feeling low. The whole point is not to move you on (as that is about us) but to offer you support. I can certainly identify with all you are saying. I also agree with some of the other comments here that maybe you won't ever be the same again - and a good job too! You will be stronger and more clued up. You have already discovered your friend is being abused and that so many other people have stories to tell and you can also see that you were at the point your friend is at, at present, so you know you have already come a long way. I do not think you are whingeing or whining. I actually dislike these words and feel both are derogatory towards women, when do you hear anyone say a man whines or a man whinges? I do not think other women should be using these words at all, because to do so is using the language of narcs, the language of the people who abused us in the first place! If you choose not to take anti-depressants that is your choice, if you choose to go down that route that is also your choice. I am assuming you have free will and I do not feel that you should be made to feel that unless you get anti depressants then you cannot expect us to continue offering you support on this site. I would not want you to fear visiting here for fear of the response you might get. Isn't that again what those narcs in our lives did? Didn't they punish us for not doing as they said? Didn't they think they knew what was best for us? I think your posts of your feelings show incredible insight. None of it is abnormal. There are some good ideas here; such as the postive stickers, and the links given for other readings. Be kind to yourself and each day write three things on post it notes that were postive. Stick them up and watch them grow. Write a journal, there are so many things you can do to focus on you. I note you also say about not seeing your family and another word that comes to mind is acceptance. Sometimes we just have to accept what we can't change and focus on what we have and what we can be grateful for. Writing a list of gratitude can also help. You will be amazed at what you have. I always start with I have two legs because my great aunt who was my main carer when I was a child only had one (she had the other amputated when I was seven). It was a family joke to say 'at least you have two legs.' Maybe not very funny, but I think it was her way of getting me to snap out of the gloom. Even now if I have a down day aged 55 I smile to myself and think. 'at least you have two legs.' I'm not wishing to deny your pain, nor belittle what you are going through; I'm trying to encourage you to see that you can choose to remain a victim and let him continue to exert control or you can choose to change your mindset. It takes practice. Apart from the Freedom programme these books helped me: Women Who Love Too Much, Feel the Fear and Do It Anyway and a Buddhist book called 'When Things Fall Apart'. Different things speak to different people. however I think it is always worth mentioning what has worked for you; just in case it can help someone else. You say you are a student. Do not assume other sudents do not feel the same. Statistically one in four women has been in a DV situation. Look around the room and think how many might be affected or have been affected. Also go for a coffee even if you are feeling disconnected, with practice it gets easier and eventually it gets to be fun again. Finally do you want to be a good role model for your kids? If the anwser is yes, believe me you have far more power than you think you have and far more choices than you think you have!! Start your list of gratitude right now Barbara Sat, 02/06/2010 - 03:44 — fairy wings Hi Barbara. I appreciate your reply and as a counsellor myself I know where you are coming from, however is it right to be brutal in the name of therapy? I would never call you a bitch, as you may be aware I think for women to use this word for anything other than a female dog is totally inappropriate, even when they think that they have taken it as a badge of freedom. To say or believe another women is a bitch is only ever colluding with patriarchy and quite often it was the belief that the other woman was a bitch that got us in to the mess we found ourselves in, in the first place when we believed the narcs version of reality and the tales of woe. (the word 'bitch' means a female dog and as we all know men, and other women, also refer to women as dogs, so in the name of sisterhood please do not use this word about yourself or any other women). I have total respect for you as a woman, and as a human being, and as any other label you wish to own, however I still have some concerns about your banning of Ellen, no matter how well meaning your intention I accept when forced to look at the ever repeating cycles on her own Ellen may well come to speedier conclusions about her situation, however despite Ellen's repeating patterns I do not think at any time she was a danger to any other user of this site. In fact when she supported me with her comments before my most recent DV lecture she made a significant contribution that will stay with me, and from the feedback, those who were present in the lecture. I have interpreted her comments as follows: she believes men set women up against each other and that whilst we as women fall prey to this trap we will continue to stab other women in the back and in so doing collude with the perpetrator. As she rightly pointed out it is this 'conquer and divide' mentally (sold to us by patriarchy)that men cast out and women buy in to that continues to keep women victimised. As therapists, as women, as human beings we have to be able to have our voice about what has happened to us. None of us has the Truth, we all have our own truths at particular points in time and we must be very careful not to map our own experience on to anyone else's. Obviously we may all do this from time to time, however we must remain constantly aware of this possibility and when we notice this start to happen remind ourselves that we must always work from a position of non-judgement with all those we come in to contact with. None of us is an expert, ever! If we feel that someone is not taking our advice I would suggest that that is ok, and if we cannot let go of the outcome of any advice we offer than we have to accept that this has more to do with our own need to control and our own anger than that of the person we are judging. If Ellen is going round in circles, as I'm sure we have all done at times, it would be better for us to explore with her what is keeping her hooked. Ellen said she used to smoke, I'd ask her 'How' she stopped smoking. When she can identify the 'How', she will have a better chance of unhooking again. I have never felt Ellen is being a victim, although she may be a little stuck, she is however very astute at saying how it is for her at this point in time and if she is isolated I can understand why she would need verification from those of us who have been there that this is perfectly normal given what she has been through. It isn't about us judging Ellen it is about us listening and working with her at the point she is at, at this time. If Ellen is stuck then there is a reason for that and that is fine. If anyone here is wanting to find solutions for others that is surely not what it is about. It's about listenign and ofering support. People find their own path in their own time; I ahve complete faith in that. I would like to discuss all of this in more depth with you and will do so if you are happy for me to contact you directly, however I do have one question I would like answered in the public domain. I have possibly been under the misapprehension that you, Barbara, although a counsellor, was here just like the rest of us, a visitor to the site who was a former victim. I thought this site was Lisa's and that Lisa was not Barbara; now I am not so sure. If you are just a normal visitor to these pages where does your power come from to ban Ellen? This is something that is perplexing me.

I was up still last night and I did read your post to Barbara before it was removed and I thought your reply was amzing. I only wish I could write like that you have my total support on this. Did Barbara reply to your last question at all? Because I too want to know what gives her authority to remove someone. How does one of the regular members have that control? Everything you said is soo true. By removing Ellen was abbuse the same as what we have already gone thru.And I hope it hasn't affected her self esteem more.This site is controlling Ellen and probly all the rest of us. If she removes me from this site because of my support for you and others so be it. When she gives her advice I agree she is yelling a lot with her capitol letters. I have thought that from day one. And she is dooing the same thing that she has asked others not to do. I have enjoyed this site and it has helped me a lot by my giving and receiving support .Barbara please reconsider and don't be so harsh in judging Ellen like that. We are not here to judge but support. I agree with you about the fact that I know you want to remove youself from this site but I will terribly miss you and your support. It will not be the same without you. I don't think it will remain the same anyway after all this distention among the particicpants. Please let Ellen know I am 100% behind her and praying for her.

I have no idea what has gone on. I like Ellen very much. We started here at the same time and have supported each other. Please..why was Ellen not allowed to post? Barbara has given me insight into who I was married to. Without this site, I would have still been scratching my head. I wonder if we can all discuss this and make things right. OK...I saw it now. Hmmm...Barbara, I think there is a little truth to this. We are all learning, eh? But I think telling Ellen she was whining was a bit harsh. Many of us got dismissed in this way by our abuser whenever we expressed feelings. Although I know you are trying to do what is best for Ellen, I wonder if you might be open to what I've written. I want Ellen back full on, not read only. Her feelings were understood by us. Even if we never posted her same words, I for one would nod in agreement and understanding in the way she felt. She also helps and supports us all. Please reconsider this, Barbara.

Are you a member of the UK google group that Clover18 set up? I think you may be able to contact Ellen through that as she is on there. I didn't realise all this had gone on when I responded to another thread by Ellen, I am not on this site very much so I have missed all this.

I don't understand how a person can be publicly removed from here but the discussion regarding it is kept private. Doesn't make sense to me. But then, alot of stuff makes no sense to me.