Briseis, this is a continuation of the 'over-apologizing' thread

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#1 Dec 27 - 10PM
Leah
Leah's picture

Briseis, this is a continuation of the 'over-apologizing' thread

Below is my reply to what you last posted to me, in that thread where we were talking about apologizing and recovery. That message thread got bumped down, so I re-posted my reply here, so it'd be easier to locate it.

It'd be great to hear what you think, because your insights & feedback are really making me look at myself in a way I never did before. Thanks for stepping out on that limb to offer the tough love that I need to hear. I can take it.
: )

Oh, thanks for saying, "Leah, you are a human being!! Not a wooden girl who wishes she was real." Wow. I really needed to hear that. Sometimes that's exactly how I feel. And I think I've been feeling that way my whole life.

Okay, here's what I wrote earlier:
- - - - - - -
Briseis, I totally understand what you mean, completely. I should clarify that I don't make amends every day, but it's frequent enough. Too frequent. Enough that it's inappropriate. And if I'm not making amends, I'm often thinking about doing so, which takes up the same amount of mental space.

What I do everyday is...

- Think over & over in my head about a conversation I recently had with someone, and get stuck on something I MIGHT HAVE said that might have upset them...

- Worry that I've made a mistake...like I had told the woman, who I'm going to live with in CA, that I was going to call her on Sunday. Sunday night came and I knew I wasn't in shape for that call, so I texted asking if we could talk today. I didn't hear back from her right away, and I automatically assumed I had upset her. This morning I e-mailed her, and of course everything was fine & I had made it all up in my head. It's funny, because the ex-N's passive aggression really brought out this trait of mine. In the beginning of the relationship, I made it clear on a few occasions that I thought he was upset when he wasn't, so we had this understanding that whenever I was making up stuff in my head about his feelings toward me, that I would check in with him about it. In the beginning it worked fine, and he understood. Then somewhere along the way I grew to trust him & didn't need to 'check in' anymore, and that's precisely when he started hiding his true feelings from me and devaluation began. Ugh.

- Almost automatically say, "I'm sorry," often unconsciously. It drives my friends crazy. I've gotten better, but if I'm feeling particularly insecure in a situation, it'll come out.
Recently it did occur to me in some moment....that it's kind of attention-getting. That it's not cool.

It's such an old, unconscious habit from living with my parents.

It definitely is self-centered, and I'm just beginning to realize that. It took me a while. And it's so unconscious, it's hard to break the habit, even if I intellectually understand it. But it is self-centered, and that's not the energy or message I want to convey about myself.

It even drove the narc crazy.

I have the habit, when I feel like people are extending themselves too much for me, of saying, 'Are you sure?' The most recent ex-N mentioned once in the beginning of the relationship, in passing, and I didn't think twice about it. Then when I visited him, it happened while we were walking around, and he got angry...
N: "It really ANNOYS me when you do that."
Me: "Do what?"
N: "Say, 'Are you sure?'"
Me: "Oh, I wish you had told me sooner."
N: "I'm telling you NOW because it annoys me NOW."

And on the breakup call, when I was really caught off guard & nervous and said something similar, he said...
N: "Aargh!!! It REALLY BOTHERS ME when you ask questions like that?!"
Me: "I'm sorry, what did I say? (in tears)"
N: "You just asked me if you could ask me some questions and I said, 'Yes.' And then you ask me if I have enough time to talk?! I just told you that you could ask me questions! The more you ask me those kinds of questions, THE MORE IT MAKES ME QUESTION THE FIRST ANSWER I GAVE YOU!!! It REALLY bothers me!"

I broke down sobbing when he said that.
I had asked him if he had enough time because he had barely given me any phone time for almost 3 weeks...it wasn't such a crazy question, in light of all that had been going on.

*sigh*

I'm guessing that while these are habits I need to change, a true healing partner could've approached me in a different way, yes?

A non-narc wouldn't break up with me for these habits, would they? I can't lie...that's in my thoughts. That I might have been too insecure for him.

I recently read somewhere that narcs like strong women, and when they detect a woman is weak, they drop them. I suspect that between my insecurities and then my clinging during the D&D, he saw me as very weak and unattractive. It sucks that that's his final memory of me.

Ugh. I really want to change. These habits are not attractive.
Thanks for all your concern & compassion - it's perfect and incredibly helpful!!!!

Really, perfect.

Where else could I feel the safety to share this stuff and receive such heart-full feedback?

Now I need to start changing...I'm just not sure how.

-Leah

Dec 28 - 3PM
Briseis
Briseis's picture

I often don't know "what" to

I often don't know "what" to change when I see a need to change in myself too. Plus, if I'm getting you right, you are seeking to change (into more realistic type things) deep seated beliefs and attitudes that you only have partial awareness of. That's what's so powerful about using metaphors, like telling you that you aren't a "wooden girl trying to become real". That kind of stuff speaks to me anyway. Kind of like a parable speaks to deep seated beliefs and attitudes in a way that conscious, rational "teaching" can't do. Where the real change happens is way deep down in there, but the only access we have to the deep seated attitudes is indirect at best. I know that "acting as if" is very powerful. Behavior does not just follow thought, it goes both ways. A good example is this. Yes, it's stupid but kind of funny too. When you are really in the dumps, go to a mirror and smile. Really big and cheesy. Force it. Show your molars :D . Smiling, ie, using those muscles that make you smile, causes your brain to squirt out endorphins, which are our natural feel good hormones. I swear to God you will feel it. Don't disrespect yourself by trying to do this when you are crying, but just when you are feeling dread and anxiety nagging from within. That's an example of how a behavior (smiling) causes internal belief/feeling/attitude change. It's really stupid too :D I couldn't get a checking account for a year after I left Idaho. So when I got up enough money to pay off 500 and something bucks to close that account, I called the bank and PRETENDED to be quite confident, matter of fact, no big deal, la de da :D . Inside I was quaking with shame. You know what? During the call, I honestly did not "hear" the bank person thinking I was a low life. The transaction went over, and a week later, I got myself a checking account. AND a visa debit card :D . Never been so relieved and grateful for a piece of plastic in my life :D . THose are examples of belief following behavior, of "acting as if". So for you, when you feel the URGE to apologize or explain or defend yourself, what could you do instead? A million OTHER things, that's what. None of them are wrong. It's like letting go of one trapeze and grabbing the next one. You are in adult society (sans the Narc and your parents). You are surrounded primarily by NORMAL people. You need to feel that and trust in it. YOU are a normal person. For me there was such rigidity in my self effacing behaviors. And I discovered there are literally a million other responses I can make. 999,980 are probably inappopropriate to the situation LOL. But the remaining 20 are better, and the sky will not fall, the body snatchers will not turn and point at you and gargle, and the other person will ACCEPT what you say as you accept what they say. I have been a deeply self centered person all of my life. Not because I am bad. Because I was conditioned to be. If I did not stay "on top" of my behavior as a child, stay rigidly focused on not upsetting my father, my life would have been MORE hellish than it was. We come by this self centeredness honestly. It is ironic that we are also extremely OTHER centered while being so self centered. But it makes perfect sense considering how we learned to be with a PDI for a parent. Honestly, you can't use your exNarc as a yardstick for ANYTHING, Leah. Mainly because they change the rules of the game to suit themselves, from one minute to the next. It is your "bad" habit of focusing on other people's negative reactions to you that are tripping you up. There are some people who's feedback is USELESS. For now, his feedback to you about who you ARE or any of your ways of doing or being is USELESS to you. It really is. You have a long standing bad "habit" of riveting on negative feedback. Time to turn that machine off. If you miss out on negative feedback, you won't be killed or shunned forever. You are an adult now. Not a single hair will get put out of place. How often do YOU give slack to other people, forgive them for being inartful or inelegant? All the time, right? All normal people are equally willing, honey. Some more or less than others. And frankly, five people will take what you say or do and interpret it five different ways. It's more about THEM than you. You are really and truly off the hook, and you don't know it. I admit this is stuff I've worked out specifically for me, and so far it is working. I am SO much more comfortable in my skin. You'll have your own version :)
Dec 29 - 2AM (Reply to #11)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Brie

You Said: I have been a deeply self centered person all of my life. Not because I am bad. Because I was conditioned to be. If I did not stay "on top" of my behavior as a child, stay rigidly focused on not upsetting my father, my life would have been MORE hellish than it was. We come by this self centeredness honestly. It is ironic that we are also extremely OTHER centered while being so self centered. But it makes perfect sense considering how we learned to be with a PDI for a parent. And, this intrigues me - as I too was raised by a PDI *I believe. Can you explain how we are self centered or conditoned to be self centered...what are the actions that make us self centered? I don't disagree - but only recently accepting my REALITY - ALL OF IT...I've heard how we can also be self centered - but what is it that makes us self centered? Is it the act of putting others before us seeking the validation etc..and so in reality we are not truly giving but also expecting recognition? AND, isn't it natural that if you're there for someone and you have self esteem that you would expect reciprocity? This is where I get confused because I read stuff about co-dependency and some of it I buy, but some of it I don't? And so I'm not sure...how to define normal. I consider myself empathetic although after this last fiasco...not sure about how willing I am? I also feel in my case, because of my background I've chosen shitty friends and then end up feeling let down - but it's because they did let me down? So I would assume, that even if you are there for someone which is what most people expect in a friendship - I'm not being self centered to expect the give and take? So I'm not sure about the self centered part - could you elaborate some? Thanks! I'd like to add - for me, the issue is discernment - choosing which swine if any are worthy - that's an oxymoron...NO swine are worthy! - what I mean is learning how not to be soooooo giving and questioning my motives in the future if I do decide...it's a hard one...but to THINK... You said in another post - part of giving for you in even the worse cases, would be to let others experience the consequences...I liked that and it's interesting to think about...how sometimes making it easy isn't the best way to help.
Dec 29 - 11PM (Reply to #12)
Briseis
Briseis's picture

The term self centered has a

The term self centered has a lot of baggage. It's never considered "a good thing" to be self centered, or too self centered. On this forum we're suffering from the effects of the Kings of self centeredness. Maybe a better term for it is "self conscious"? Overly conscious of every little thing you do (in case it might get you in trouble some how). It amounts to the same thing, in my personal understanding, though. But without the negative connotation. If a person is very self conscious, they are self preoccupied. A lot of attention is going back inward. It's like your "self" becomes a center of gravity, and if it's really bad, it distorts reality, makes some things bigger than they really are (your mistakes, for instance). It's still a "me me me" thing, but for different reasons than you'd think, considering how we usually use that term. Is this making any sense at all? :D :P It isn't "me me me" because I'm so darn important and special, it's "me me me" because I'm so likely to f*ck up and blow it for myself or someone else. Different motivating thoughts (deep seated) but it produces a similar effect on your relationships. It is kind of like reverse grandiosity. Narcs have plain old grandiosity. They are me me me because they are convinced it SHOULD be all about them, or else. Victims of narcs become very me me me too, but it's because we think we are so BAD and that we cause all this BAD stuff to happen, hurt people, have this "badness" within us. Narcs inflate thier importance. Victims of narcs inflate thier "badness", unworthiness, mistakes. We get to believe that just that one little question we asked caused the Narc to blow up and be "hurt". It's so much like self centeredness, but coming from a different angle. Does this make sense?
Dec 28 - 10PM (Reply to #8)
Leah
Leah's picture

Briseis, I understand. And you're right...

- 'Acting as if' has worked for me in a crunch...like the kind of call you needed to make about your account. I need to apply 'acting as if' to more of my daily interactions. - I'll work on replacing 'apologies' with other responses. I can do that, as long as I stay really aware. - I had to re-read the following sentence a few times before it sunk in: "It is your "bad" habit of focusing on other people's negative reactions to you that are tripping you up." Yes, I'm always shattered when other people are angry or upset with me. In fact, to avoid negative reactions, I just do my best not to upset people, over-apologize, sometimes avoid people, don't ask for what I need, etc. I walk around constantly in fear of other people judging me, being angry with me, being disappointed in me, etc. Fear, period. I've been this way all my life. It's exhausting and lonely. That bad habit of always worrying about people's reactions to me really sets me up to 1) do things that are self-centered and put other people off and 2) always be 'on guard', anxious & not enjoy life - I do give other people slack. I don't crucify them if they say or do something that isn't perfect or annoys me. In fact, I almost never bring something like that up...because it's not important to me. The ex-N was surprised that his belittling me for my idiosyncrasy had upset me, and he said that he was "just expressing his anger in a healthy way, and that I should learn how to do the same...'. That's screwed up. Being nasty to me about a habit of [rarely] saying, "Are you sure?" is just ridiculous, now that I really look at it. Why would it make him so angry? If he were a truly understanding partner, wouldn't he want to lovingly point it out and support me in changing it? He had TONS of insecurities and idiosyncrasies...and I accepted them and loved him anyway. I won't beat myself up about that stuff anymore. He was a jerk for belittling me for those things, even if they are things I need to change. He criticized me during the D&D and I need to see it for what it is...that it had nothing to do with my habit of asking 'Are you sure?' or anything like that...he would've criticized me for anything, because by then he was devaluing me. It wouldn't have mattered, he would have been cruel anyway. I really am off the hook, aren't I? This habit of always thinking I'm a screw up is crazy, isn't it? Lots of work to shift this pattern...I'm up for it. Thanks as always, Briseis. Really, this is so helpful. I'm lucky that the healing work that you did is similar to what I need to do...it's helpful to connect with someone who understands me. Prior to this point in my life, I don't think I ever met anyone who really understood what I went through as a kid, or why I am the way I am as an adult. Even though I'm almost 38, I feel like I'm 12 or 13. I feel like I have a lot of growing up to do. A lot to learn. -Leah
Dec 29 - 12AM (Reply to #9)
Briseis
Briseis's picture

- I do give other people

- I do give other people slack. I don't crucify them if they say or do something that isn't perfect or annoys me. In fact, I almost never bring something like that up...because it's not important to me. That's what I mean by you not needing to apologize all that much, or near as much as you may be doing. Other normal people will cut you the same slack you cut them. You know, more or less. If you knew that you could do NOTHING to affect whether a person likes you or not, how would that effect how you behave in your daily life, interactions? Or say you could do some mild kinds of influencing, superficial kinds. But that's it. Very limited. How would that affect how you do your daily thing? For me anyway, I believed I had an extreme amount of power over how other people responded to me. Mostly to the negative, of course. My "good" was good, but my bad was horrible. Exponentially! I didn't have to do much at all to get on someone's "worthless and unlikeable" list. That's all straight from having a PDI parent, too. We could never get it right because the goal posts were in constant motion. And, we were encouraged to take the blame for freaking out our parent. We "triggered" them, we caused them SO much pain, SO much trouble, poor poor them. So I carried that into adult hood, like I had a ticking bomb strapped to me I couldn't take off and at any moment it would explode my badness out and cause this other person untold grief and pain and outrage. THere's this gal at work that kept trying to get me to go to lunch with her. We aren't supposed to go together, but she kept on asking. And I kept on declining. I'd make something up, try to be gracious about it. And she doesn't HATE me!! Kind of a revelation :D It's . . . not true.
Dec 29 - 10PM (Reply to #10)
Leah
Leah's picture

Briseis, my problem is that

I have a child-like fear of people being angry with me or not liking me. Which leads to over-apologizing and a doing host of other quirky things to avoid them not liking me or being angry with me...and those very behaviors & ways of thinking...make me self-centered. I totally get that my mother programmed me into this way of 'working.' I get it now. She was such a scary, dangerous monster...I tried as best as I could to twist myself into whatever pretzel might please her that moment, day or week. Which of course never worked, but my father claimed that it would. And I believed him until I was in my late teens. It's funny about how you mention us 'triggering' the PDI's. My mother pinned that on me all the time. And my sister was her favorite (they both were slow in school, they both were heavy as kids...lots of commonalities, so my mother saw my sister as an extension of herself). I was the evil one, because I was her opposite. She was jealous of me. Everything I did triggered her. She would fly into rage, sink into deep depression...at the drop of a hat, often because I 'did/said' something. And I can't tell you how many times the most recent ex-N would send me some apology e-mail in the morning...pointing out exactly what I said the night before that set off his 'triggers' (he used that exact word), and then would 'take responsibility,' saying that he had to better manage his triggers. He clearly wasn't 'managing' anything nor was he self-aware (despite all his psycho/12-step babble trying to prove the contrary)...he flew into rage easily, or became subtly passive aggressive, which always baffled me. I'm realizing that all of my ex-narcs were just higher-functioning versions of my mother. And I'm going to work hard to attribute just as little credence and validity to their ways of being as I easily do toward my mother. I wrote off my mother as an incurable monster many years ago. If I can do that with the most recent ex-N and his predecessors, then I'll feel better. Lately, it's my giving over power & validity to the most recent ex-N's viewpoints, words, actions and criticisms that is draining me of my life force. I keep re-hashing the traumatizing moments & conversations with the most recent ex-N...as if the actions and words of ex-N have any meaning or any connection to me. As if they were personal. As if those abusive and mind-f*king moments were somehow directed at me because of some trait or behavior of mine. Now I'm getting it - all of his words, actions, abuse...were directed at some image of who he wanted me to be...he never, ever 'saw' me, so not a single interaction was 'real'. He was talking to some illusion of me that never existed, just as the 'nice guy' I thought he was never existed either. Nothing he said or did had anything to do with me. Absolutely nothing. I need to treat the most recent ex-N as I treat my mother, in my mind. That his thoughts, feelings & actions have no merit because he's crazy, cannot see outside himself, and will always unconsciously hurt others because he has no idea who he is, how he's wounded or what he's doing. He acts all 'self-aware/12-step/I went to therapy for 3 years' but in reality, he's totally in the dark. Totally asleep. he says, 'I have abandonment and trust issues.' REALLY???? He has NO IDEA how large those loom for him or how he projects them onto every person he meets. If I can remember that he is a high-functioning unconscious monster/psychic vampire, then the recovery work around this most recent ex-N will go faster. And that can help me change this thought pattern of...'I cause others so much pain & trauma...I cause them pain...I make them angry..." Changing how I look at this most recent ex-N is the key to me turning around how I look at/relate to everyone... So I don't continue to think, as you said, "like I had a ticking bomb strapped to me I couldn't take off and at any moment it would explode my badness out and cause this other person untold grief and pain and outrage." And if I can begin to undo that mental programming, then eventually that self-centeredness will begin to subside....yes? I'm starting to feel optimistic. I have to feel good about something. I haven't felt good about anything for months and months. Wow. This is powerful stuff. I think my coyote man gave me more teachings than I initially realized. Thanks as always, Briseis, Leah
Dec 28 - 9AM
Hunter
Hunter's picture

People that love you accept

People that love you accept you for you, even when you screw up. As far a strong personality, that's me. My Narc new it and stressed that I was the strongest woman he knows. That much he's got right. So part of his game was to gain my trust then take me down. Mission accomplished. You guys are still questioning the thoughts and actions of a psychopath. You need to focus on you, your self esteem and rebuilding who you are. Again all you did was fall in love. The right person will show up and this will be behind you. Hugs idealk
Dec 29 - 10PM (Reply to #6)
Leah
Leah's picture

Idealk

Hi! I've had a long day & never got to reply to your post yesterday. Thanks for that reminder. See the most recent post I added to this thread. I'm slowly 'getting it'. I didn't do anything wrong or anything that merited the abuse I got from ex-N. It's sinking in... Hugs, Leah
Dec 27 - 11PM
Journey
Journey's picture

Wow Leah

I can relate to much of your post. I think being accused of being too needy creates our questions like "are you sure?" when someone offers to do something for us. I noticed myself saying this exact thing last week to my bf when she called to offer to pick me up in the car on our way somewhere. Her response to me was, "well I was planning on picking you up, so of course I'm sure" She wasn't annoyed by me asking that, but she was a little surprised that I would think she wouldn't have wanted to do it. "A non-narc wouldn't break up with me for these habits, would they? I can't lie...that's in my thoughts. That I might have been too insecure for him." I thought the exact same thing - that the insecurity I felt while during the final D&D is what drove him away (well - duh - he wanted an excuse and he got what he wanted and a way for me to take the blame even though he was the one lying to me and wooing new supply during that very D&D - no wonder I felt insecure!). BUT, I think that these habits would not become so habitual with a non-narc, nor do I think we would be so insecure as to be too insecure. Our narcs do and say things to contribute to our insecurities - a non-narc would not do that. We all have our personal issues of vulnerability which can get on the nerves of people who care about us, but people who care about us don't make these vulnerabilities worse in us on purpose the way narcs do. Narcs need to remain in control over us and that is their best way to maintain it. These habits will likely change the more we learn to believe that we deserve good treatment so when people compliment us, treat us well or offer to help us we can accept it graciously. And when people don't respond right away to us, seem to have been offended or whatever, once we trust ourselves to know we spoke or acted with good intentions and well meaning, we will no longer need to question ourselves, but can be free to assume they are just busy with their own lives and it is not that we did or said anything "wrong". I hope this helps a little. Journey on...

Journey on...

Dec 28 - 8AM (Reply to #2)
Leah
Leah's picture

Hi Journey, thanks for sharing

your thoughts. True, my insecurities were heightened during my relationship with the narc. I saw that happen. In the beginning they weren't, but as time went on and he became more moody and unpredictable, I was walking on eggshells and kept wondering what 'I was doing' to provoke his ups & downs and his withdrawals. I still wonder...if my insecure idiosyncrasies surface during a relationship with a non-narc, if he'll be really annoyed or leave me the way ex-N did. I'm in therapy & really working hard on my issues, but it will take some time for me to change and really implement all the changes. So, now I'm fearful that if I'm just being myself, and one of these insecure things comes out of my mouth... I'm afraid a potential life mate will leave me because of them. : / Thanks for sharing & listening Journey. You always have great insights and are really supportive. -Leah
Dec 28 - 2PM (Reply to #3)
Journey
Journey's picture

Being insecure

thanks Leah, I'm glad I can help a little. I often read peoples posts and don't reply because there are so many members here that I feel know better than I, so I try to only comment on situations that really resonate with me. You said in the beginning your "insecure idiosyncrasies" were not an issue until he became moody etc. That is what I experienced. The first few months with my narc I felt on top of the world with confidence. I did not feel jealous of other women because I felt from him there was no other. I did not doubt my attractiveness because every time we were together he let me know how attracted to me he was. After about 3 months though, everything slowly began changing. My insecurities crept in like a snail and I began slipping in the slime. I believe that is what happened with you too. My N began to withhold sex and affection to control me because he knew how much I wanted it. By then I was so in love and thought he was the one. All my dreams of the kind of partner I had always wanted were suddenly threatened by his 'need for space' and growing distance and at worse coldness or insensitivity. I thought I was doing something wrong. My insecurities were awakened then and for the rest of the relationship kept creeping into my thoughts and fears. Toward the end when he was already working on new supply, he told me "no matter how much I reassure you, it will never be enough because it has to come from within, so I will not enable your fears to continue by reassuring you" - WTF? That is when I thought I was going to lose my mind altogether. Little did I realize my fears were based in reality because he did walk out on me shortly after and he was searching for an escape and he did find it in another woman he was becoming 'friends' with during this time behind my back. A non-narc wouldn't have been withholding sex, the truth and then blaming me for doing that. Bottom line - IMO, a potential life mate wouldn't leave you because of them because they would not create feelings in you which make you feel threatened and insecure that they don't really love you or that you are not enough for them. Keep working on your issues with your therapist, that is always good, but also trust that with a potential non-narc life partner, they will instill confidence, not fear, because they will want to. You will feel enough with them because they will let you know you are. I wouldn't worry too much about ruining a new relationship that doesn't yet exist anyway. Put yourself in their shoes - if a new non-narc you were falling for told you he felt threatened by something that you knew had no truth to it - wouldn't you want to ease his mind? I know I would. When there is truth in their reassurance, we'll believe it. Journey on...

Journey on...

Dec 29 - 10PM (Reply to #4)
Leah
Leah's picture

Journey

Your conclusion resonates with me. Yes, in moments of insecurity or vulnerability, we deserve patience, reassurance and compassion. When my ex-N moved into D&D mode, none of those qualities were present in him nor evident in his words or behavior. He had insecurities and quirks and idiosyncrasies. Did I ever hang him, belittle him or criticize him for any of them? Never once. A real partner is present for us. PD'd partners are not real. They can't be present for us. I'm beginning to see things more clearly. If you have time, see the post I just added to this thread. Thanks so much, Leah