The Other Side to the "Co dependence" way of thinking.....

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#1 Mar 20 - 8PM
Steph
Steph's picture

The Other Side to the "Co dependence" way of thinking.....

I personally feel "co dependence" thinking is dangerous and blames the victim.

I do apologize if this seems ...confronational....but I am very passionate regarding having all the facts concerning the dynamics of abusive relationships....as we all here!

This article really resonates with me and I thought I'd share it....

Are women who live with abusive partners codependent?
by Clare Murphy on July 8 2009

The other day I met a social worker/counsellor at a seminar. When she found out I research domestic violence she immediately told me that women who stay with violent men are codependent. She said such women were just the same as women who live with alcoholics. She was not interested in another view because she was adamant that she was right.
According to Codependents Anonymous World Fellowship, the following are six of a long list of characteristics of codependency:
She has difficulty identifying what she is feeling
She has difficulty making decisions
She harshly judges everything she thinks, says, or does – as never “good enough”
She does not perceive herself as a lovable or worthwhile person
She puts aside her own interests and hobbies in order to do what others want
She compromises her own values and integrity to avoid rejection, or others’ anger
I have difficulty with applying the ‘codependent’ label on a woman surviving in a relationship where her male partner abuses and controls her – for the following reasons …
Victims of intimate partner abuse are not codependent
Research with women shows that the above six characteristics are an effect of experiencing long-term, ongoing, relentless abuse and control. Many male perpetrators degrade and intimidate women into believing they deserve physical violence, sexual violation, verbal abuse, or other forms of punishment.
A tactic of abuse entails brainwashing women into believing they think and feel something other than they actually do. Many domestic violence perpetrators control the decision-making. Many make women wrong for making decisions, or denigrate any decisions made by women. Many male perpetrators enslave women, making demands that she be a more than perfect housekeeper, partner, parent or woman. No human can meet those kinds of demands, hence can never be ‘good enough’. Being degraded several times a day, or several times a week, month after month after month leads to feeling unlovable and unworthy.
Changing her values and integrity to avoid rejection or anger are often consciously chosen strategies of self-preservation used by abused and controlled women. Women I have interviewed would confront the man, avoid the man, lie to get some freedom, be completely honest to try to make him stop controlling them, become violent themselves, retaliate verbally, be passive or silent. Yet these women would secretly harbour knowledge of their true selves, whilst attempting a variety of behaviours – that went against their values – in order to avoid, or stop the abuse. These are not strategies of a codependent person.
It is dangerous to give the ‘codependent’ label to victims of intimate partner abuse
Codependence implies a lack of assertion. Whereas, if a woman asserts her opinions, needs, or rights to a controlling man, he could then engage in more or worse abuse to stamp out her assertiveness. It may, therefore, be dangerous for a psychologist to coach a woman to assertively stand up to her partner. Anyone wishing to help such a woman should respect her reasoning for not asserting herself.
Codependence implies women serve others to the detriment of flourishing to her full potential. Whereas, women who want to, or do, attend tertiary schooling to improve their skills and talents, can actually experience more, or worse, abuse by their partner because he wants to ensure she does not grow. For example, a man interviewed by Eva Lundgren (1995) said, “It makes her reconsider when I lock her up in a cupboard. Then she gets scared. Give her a sense of her total dependency, that’s the only way.” Therefore, it may be dangerous for a psychotherapist to encourage a woman to go against her partner’s demands by attending school. People in the helping professions need to listen to women’s views on how detrimental to her safety such a step might be.
Codependence implies women stay with violent and otherwise abusive men because they are attracted to being abused, like it, and want it. Whereas, in reality, women engage in multiple strategies to stop the abuse, to help the man change, to protect themselves and their children, or to avoid being abused in the first place. It may be dangerous for a counsellor to encourage a woman to leave. Social workers should honour women’s knowledge about what will, and will not, keep her safe, and that might mean staying with the abuser. It definitely means that multiple services are required to support the woman’s safety, such as police, safe housing, and financial support agencies.
Blaming the victim is tantamount to abusing her
Anyone who gives the ‘codependent’ label – to anyone who is living with a man who engages in a degrading pattern of psychological abuse and control – is blaming the victim and pathologising her. This label implies the victim has behaviours that pull the abuse out of the man. Yet, Jeff Hearn’s (1998) in-depth interviews with male perpetrators shows, for example, that some men threaten suicide as a way of ensuring women do not leave them, and other men threaten to harm or kill pets, children, family, friends and/or the woman herself.
Many perpetrators of intimate partner abuse consider themselves to be the King of the Castle, the Boss, the Master who must be obeyed at all costs. Such attitudes may creep in slowly over time entrapping and disempowering their female partners. These men may also be charming, caring, protective and kind at other times. This is confusing to women. Many women spend years attempting to understand and change the man’s abusive behaviours – they do not accept abuse as their lot.
The subject of this website is domestic violence which is different to mutual abuse – it is about one person’s campaign to control the other through whatever means they find works. For example, one of the men Cavanagh and her colleagues (2001) interviewed said he “was a bit of a tactician” and that he would “more or less try to intimidate her by going quiet and staring.” This kind of intentional behaviour aimed at subservience, and at lowering a woman’s sense of self-esteem, worth and personal integrity, is a hallmark of a systematic pattern over time. A pattern that entails the male abuser refusing to take responsibility for his behaviours and entails blaming the woman, confusing her, isolating her, making her wrong and demanding respect for his position as the man. Coping with such behaviours does not make a woman codependent.
Power and control over women is a social issue
This is not about a woman being codependent by reinforcing the man’s behaviour. The need that many men have to establish and maintain authority over women is a social issue – an issue of contemporary expectations of masculinity. My research with male perpetrators shows that this is a way for certain men to avoid feeling weak, vulnerable and feminine – as not being a so-called ‘real man’ is considered inferior. Controlling a female partner is a socially sanctioned way for the man to gain social kudos. Men who control their partners know what they’re doing. Many men provoke women to do something that the man then believes will justify hitting her. For instance, a man interviewed by Cavanagh and colleagues (2001) said he’d “do anything to get an excuse” to use violence against his partner.
In sum, any psychological issues female victims experience, that resemble characteristics deemed to be codependent, are a result of incessant abuse and control by their male partners, and are reinforced by social issues that support male authority in the home and male control and possessiveness over humans and animals in the home. Women’s coping strategies should be taken seriously. Blaming women revictimises them, further isolates them and deepens their growing sense of not being good enough.

http://www.speakoutloud.net/psychological-abuse/are-women-who-live-with-...

Mar 21 - 10AM
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Here is the comprehensive list of Codependency Criteria...

Denial patterns: I have difficulty identifying what I am feeling. I minimize, alter or deny how I truly feel. I perceive myself as completely unselfish and dedicated to the well-being of others. I lack empathy for the feelings and needs of others. I label others with my negative traits. I can take care of myself without any help from others. I mask my pain in various ways such as anger, humor, or isolation. I express negativity or aggression in indirect and passive ways. I do not recognize the unavailability of those people to whom I am attracted. Low self-esteem patterns: I have difficulty making decisions. I judge everything I think, say or do harshly, as never "good enough." I am embarrassed to receive recognition and praise or gifts. I do not ask others to meet my needs or desires. I value others' approval of my thinking, feelings and behavior over my own. I do not perceive myself as a lovable or worthwhile person. I constantly seek recognition that I think I deserve. I have difficulty admitting that I made a mistake. I need to appear to be right in the eyes of others and will even lie to look good. I am unable to ask others to meet my needs or desires. I perceive myself as superior to others. I look to others to provide my sense of safety. I have difficulty getting started, meeting deadlines, and completing projects. I have trouble setting healthy priorities. Avoidance patterns: I act in ways that invite others to reject, shame, or express anger toward me. I judge harshly what others think, say, or do. I avoid emotional, physical, or sexual intimacy as a means of maintaining distance. I allow my addictions to people, places, and things to distract me from achieving intimacy in relationships. I use indirect and evasive communication to avoid conflict or confrontation. I diminish my capacity to have healthy relationships by declining to use all the tools of recovery. I suppress my feelings or needs to avoid feeling vulnerable. I pull people toward me, but when they get close, I push them away. I refuse to give up my self-will to avoid surrendering to a power that is greater than myself. I believe displays of emotion are a sign of weakness. I withhold expressions of appreciation. Compliance patterns: I compromise my own values and integrity to avoid rejection or others' anger. I am very sensitive to how others are feeling and feel the same. I am extremely loyal, remaining in harmful situations too long. I value others' opinions and feelings more than my own and am afraid to express differing opinions and feelings of my own. I put aside my own interests and hobbies in order to do what others want. I accept sex when I want love. I am afraid to express my beliefs, opinions, and feelings when they differ from those of others. I accept sexual attention when I want love. I make decisions without regard to the consequences. I give up my truth to gain the approval of others or to avoid change. Control patterns: I believe most other people are incapable of taking care of themselves. I attempt to convince others of what they "should" think and how they "truly" feel. I become resentful when others will not let me help them. I freely offer others advice and directions without being asked. I lavish gifts and favors on those I care about. I use sex to gain approval and acceptance. I have to be "needed" in order to have a relationship with others. I demand that my needs be met by others. I use charm and charisma to convince others of my capacity to be caring and compassionate. I use blame and shame to emotionally exploit others. I refuse to cooperate, compromise, or negotiate. I adopt an attitude of indifference, helplessness, authority, or rage to manipulate outcomes. I use terms of recovery in an attempt to control the behavior of others. I pretend to agree with others to get what I want
Mar 21 - 4PM (Reply to #61)
gettinbetter
gettinbetter's picture

I dont have all of these but

I dont have all of these but quite a number of them! I have almost all of the control ones with the exception of thinking people are incapable of taking care of themselves. I have some serious control issues.
Mar 21 - 11AM (Reply to #59)
ImStrong
ImStrong's picture

Many of those are still

Many of those are still mine..or the "former me" the more. Co dependent me..yes at one point I lacked empathy and so on and so on..i was a mess before my narc and im a mess after...i just know how to use my powers for good now..not to just beat up on myself or according to this others..its real out here and I like the realness I like reading stuff like this..what you post michelle was.enlightning..and informative..if you have the link to the website you got this from..please share im always looking to better myself

"In the fiery pit lays a man with two faces.One is the face of a God and the other a face of the Devil.Beware He lurks your souls.Keep one hand on your heart and the other hand over your eyes. Let him walk pass you not into you.Ghost of love will possess

Mar 21 - 4PM (Reply to #60)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Imstrong

This wasn't even that comprehensive...it was from wiki...google codependency...it did go into some detail about the history of the co-dependent movement and such...I do thank you for the compliment...;)
Mar 21 - 10AM (Reply to #54)
IncognitoBurrito
IncognitoBurrito's picture

Michele <3

Wanna know something funny? My N thought he was co-dependant. I guess, in a way, it wasn't too far off the mark. Although, perhaps a bit too NICE of a term for him.
Mar 21 - 4PM (Reply to #58)
gettinbetter
gettinbetter's picture

Mine told me. Its like we

Mine told me. Its like we have sort of addiction to eachother. Then he said sick of it like you said its like taking a hit off the crack pipe but I believe we can do this this time around.
Mar 21 - 11AM (Reply to #55)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Incognito...

I have a few choice words for your narc as well as mine...but they aren't anywhere near what qualifies for entry into the DSM and I don't believe such "diagnoses" are permissible on this board as such profanity is unprofessional. I shall however to the best of my ability perhaps rather passive aggressvely give what they call an "indirecta" which is for those of you who have never heard of that term...it is Spanish and it's essentially an indirect slam... So I shall say only that he qualifies as a male appendage. *wink*
Mar 21 - 11AM (Reply to #56)
IncognitoBurrito
IncognitoBurrito's picture

Michele

Oh no, mamita! Don't go there. Haha! I think you're insulting the "male appendage." I'm not about to hate on all men like that.
Mar 21 - 11AM (Reply to #57)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Incognito

Ha! You got me...LOL Speechless...no comeback...nothing...I stand corrected.
Mar 21 - 6AM
ImStrong
ImStrong's picture

Also just like the chicken

Also just like the chicken and the egg ...I asks what comes first..The co dependency or the narc....

"In the fiery pit lays a man with two faces.One is the face of a God and the other a face of the Devil.Beware He lurks your souls.Keep one hand on your heart and the other hand over your eyes. Let him walk pass you not into you.Ghost of love will possess

Mar 21 - 11AM (Reply to #51)
IncognitoBurrito
IncognitoBurrito's picture

Strong

No, I think you had it right the first time. We were susceptible to them, because of something we had previously been exposed to. Maybe something we had been taught, or the way we were raised. Something along the way changed us. That was our weak spot. There's no shame in us admitting where we could stand to be a little bit better. Co-dependancy is a loaded, maybe offensive word, to some. I'm not a huge fan of the term, but that's because I'm stubborn. I understand that. However, they did exploit our love, and there's no excusing that, on their part.
Mar 21 - 11AM (Reply to #52)
ImStrong
ImStrong's picture

Yes withought a doubt thats

Yes withought a doubt thats why I spoke about its not about you get over yourselves..they did the damage but it doesnt mean we didnt come in damaged also

"In the fiery pit lays a man with two faces.One is the face of a God and the other a face of the Devil.Beware He lurks your souls.Keep one hand on your heart and the other hand over your eyes. Let him walk pass you not into you.Ghost of love will possess

Mar 21 - 5AM
ImStrong
ImStrong's picture

Im going to be blunt honest

Im going to be blunt honest here and say I disagree..i was exactly all those things before I met the narc..every last one..you know why..ill tell ya.. She has difficulty identifying what she is feeling (we had to do this in order to ignore the redflags in the begining when first meeting the narc..this is some thing non co dependent dont do..they seek red flags quick and leave) She has difficulty making decisions (if we had no difficuty in making decissions..we wouldnt let the narc go so fast in the begining..or take the wheel per se..we would have boundries during the mask hoovering stage and took control but no we gave him most of the decission rights) She harshly judges everything she thinks, says, or does – as never “good enough” (if we didnt do this we would not be so easily hooked on doing it after the abuse..from research I read it takes a certain someone to stay in a abusive relationship..to even step foot in one..unguarded and unaware..we must take our responsibilities also..we were not as normal as we believe..we did encounter negative feelings about ourselves before..lets be honest.he didnt tare down all our walls we did some taring down before him..well atleast me..im honest I was not perfect and down myself many..) She does not perceive herself as a lovable or worthwhile person ( we had to do this before because even during the mask stage the honeymoon stage ..i was shocked someone was so into me and cared so much..i deemed myself unlovable) She puts aside her own interests and hobbies in order to do what others want (we have all done this before..i beleive being honest..i have done this one to many times before the narc..we was not perfect before him or well we cant blame him entirely for issues we too came into the relationship with..and yes some of those issues are these..which are low self esteem..we must face it they lach on to co deendent ower self esteem individuals those who was that before them..its not nothing we cant work on right now..but its also not something we can ignore) She compromises her own values and integrity to avoid rejection, or others’ anger ( I did a lot of this at work ..i was called smiley..at home I did everything to not have a argument develope or escalade in the family..this trained me for the abuse .... I would do anything to make him stay anything) I am a full responsibility kind of girl and I beleive many of us now on this board is not taking full responsibility for this specific topic..every thingelse is all him.i agree...but to say he changed you fully 100% and you was not any of those things above..is unbeleivable..i dont beleive it and refuse too.. We all came with our cup of lowself esteem he just filled it up..we all came with our cup of co dependency..he just filled it up.. I beleive theres no way we came in perfectly normal no self issues and insecurities into the relationship..and he is the one to blame.. Yes.he is to blame for his mom issues and whatever his issues he came with..but what are our issues..what did we come in with.. Saying we only left co dependent is unspoken lies to me..we entered co dependent well atleast I did and left even more codependent.. Like I said before I came with a half empty cup in the relationship and he filled it.. I take full responsibility on my part..i was and still strugling with today very co dependent due to my own issues and low self esteem...im not ashame to say it or effected by research stating the samething..its valid research why fight it.. Whats sad is that we agree 100% of what research says about the narc..but when research ..research about us co dependent victims..we dont like it.or dissaprove it..its very narcissistic on many parts..we didnt come in perfect or not damaged..our family and kids might agree ..they might be the ones to tell you yes you are co dependent and been that way before him or atleast some of those things listed..but to say you wasnt any..i disbeleive..if you was one of those listed above..you still are co dependent before you met your narc..in my opinion

"In the fiery pit lays a man with two faces.One is the face of a God and the other a face of the Devil.Beware He lurks your souls.Keep one hand on your heart and the other hand over your eyes. Let him walk pass you not into you.Ghost of love will possess

Mar 21 - 6AM (Reply to #47)
Steph
Steph's picture

I don't think I ever said

I don't think I ever said that I was "perfect" before entering the relationship. I wasn't. No one is. I still believe that the things listed are CAUSED by being with an abuser. The "criteria" mentioned above, are also symptoms of being emotionally abused.....at least in all the articles I have read on abuse. There is alot of research on codependence, there is alot of research against it as well. There is other well documented, research based ideas out there that fit too. I mentioned one below. I think, like Michelle115 says, you take a bit of everything and apply what fits for you. We are all unique and can't be clumped into one specific category.
Mar 21 - 6AM (Reply to #48)
ImStrong
ImStrong's picture

Your absolutley right anf I

Your absolutley right and I agree..but we must look around..we are all here for the same reasons..same kind of narc.. Same problems and same dificulties..the only thing different is the timezone.. We are in a way clumped unwillingly in the same category..even though we are different and are individuals..thats one of the maine reasons where all here is because the narc didntt see our individualitiies... We were clumped together... I just believe the same way all narc have something in common..is the same way all victims have something in common.. And that can be co dependency.. Where not necesserilly clumped together but we do have something in common

"In the fiery pit lays a man with two faces.One is the face of a God and the other a face of the Devil.Beware He lurks your souls.Keep one hand on your heart and the other hand over your eyes. Let him walk pass you not into you.Ghost of love will possess

Mar 21 - 7AM (Reply to #49)
gettinbetter
gettinbetter's picture

Yup. If it looks like a duck

Yup. If it looks like a duck quacks like a duck its a duck! Now it may be some rare species but in the end its a duck. When we engage, crave or beg people who are harmful to us that is a dysfunctional relationship with the self. I don't there is anything more dysfunctional than willfully allowing someone to harm you. Call it codependency or call it whatever you want but it is a dysfunctional realtiobship with yourself that's just a fact Its like your caring switch is stuck on to a point that it is unhealthy for you. That means your switch is malfunctioning or dysfunctional
Mar 20 - 10PM
Steph
Steph's picture

I respect your point on many

I respect your point on many things you have outlined. I read this article once only, so I guess I haven't analyzed it enough. lol I dunno. One thing though that you interpreted from the article was from :"These men may also be charming, caring, protective and kind at other times. This is confusing to women." u say: "Yes, but for how long?"............. Well....I would say LONG ENOUGH to have us brainwashed. Cognitive dissonance. We see their "good" side and then we question the merit of their "bad side". As far as how does "co dependent" blame the victim?? Well... to me, I read the six criteria of being a codependent and I truley thing these are the RESULT of being in an abusive relationship but NOT WHY one is in an abusive relationship. maybe its a case of what came first the chicken or the egg lol......... Honestly tho, for me, personally, that's not the case. I just know for me personally, I was NOT this way BEFORE the relationship. Again, I was brainwashed into questioning/doubting myself etc. I read Sandra Brown's book "Women Who Love Psychopaths 2" and could totally relate to most of the "super traits" she describes so well. I recommend that book to anyone that has not yet read it.
Mar 20 - 10PM (Reply to #42)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Staying strong...

I think you make an excellent point on which came first the chicken or the egg... And I think it can be tied into how society and upbringing even when unintentional...has a lot to do with why some of us don't see the signs and equally for others its a whole other host or combination of reasons. What I'm curious about however, is that there were many people who were "potential" victims that of course were brought up in the same society we were who may have had good parents, bad parent, abusive parents...but somehow they don't stay... AND so we know where WE are...and we're trying to figure out the WHY's and the Hows but this particular author I don't feel adequately addressed or supported her position either way? I mean towards the end, she points towards it being a societal issue...granted but it all in a sense seems very vague? AND the other issue I have is I don't think that the six criteria would necessarily be EXCLUSIVE to being in an abusive relationship...I think it could be a result of society and how we're molded which I think you read my other posting "against" the Co-dependency label... Again, yes, the intermittent reinforcement, which is the charming behavior after doing something really sucky...but again...there are women that "catch on" and jet...what makes some catch on and others keep giving the benefit of the doubt over and over and over again... There is a root cause somewhere and I think the safest argument is that one label does not fit all - but if anyone and I mean professionals and those who study - I'm not speaking of us who have an "Aha" moment and get so happy that something clicked... BUT for us as victims...because we are trying so desperately to heal, find our truth and our answers...we have to be careful what we read and what we buy into... AS there are still many in the "healing" business that don't necessarily have your or my best interests at heart...there are millions of theories out there...and so the key is to be really honest with ourselves and in time, I think the truth...our individual truth will come to us but the most important key is to be open to various possibilities...or a combination of possibilities...that's why I like the "why" questions a lot...it drives people crazy...but I just love the "why" questions...
Mar 20 - 11PM (Reply to #43)
Steph
Steph's picture

Agreed. And again, the

Agreed. And again, the "supertraits" defined and explained by Sandra Brown.....to me, anyways, speak VOLUMES. and I mean VOLUMES lol. It explains, to me, so much about WHY some women are more prone to these relationships....the "root cause", In my opinion:) As far as the six criteria in "codependence" being only a result of abusive relationships, No. I think you are right. These things could be caused by other factors. What I am saying though that an abusive relationship can DEFINATELY be the cause of those factors. Don't know if that makes sense lol. It does to me though:) Again, Sandra Brown " Woman who Love psychopaths"....is a must read:)
Mar 20 - 11PM (Reply to #44)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

AND I get your point too...

My friend also mentioned that book...I will get my hands on it. Thanks for the suggestion. And absolutely, an abusive relationship can cause these things to surface...no doubt I don't think there is any debate on that point... But for ME...the way I process...I end up back to the chicken or the egg conundrum. I don't think ANY victim deserves it or brings it upon him/herself...but I want to try to figure out what happened to me that I got caught up in the web when it was so uncharacteristic of me...typically...although I feel I was brainwashed and molded by my mom who mind you was a SINGLE parent and a "tuffie" but in a way, I think in la la land...sold a fairy tale, wanted this perfect little lady like little girl, soft spoken whatever... A mother who had her own demons...and was abused as a child and really delusional in some ways...never learned how to protect herself and so pulled me into dysfunctional thinking by default...I mean she idolizes MELAINE From gone with the wind! Bullshit I know exactly why I fell into the trap...I know my truth... But, it's asking the questions for my peers...my issues I can share? I can say...this is my truth...but as a mod, I'm also here to "facilitate"...not preach to you what your problem is but maybe guide you? Ask you questions point out things you say?... AND "Why" is very effective. See, this thread right here, I think is helpful...it's helpful because it's kinda going between the three of us you know...and you have your truth and SOI has hers...and I have mine...but there is a fourth person, maybe one of the "guests" who hasn't jumped in here yet? Or a newcomer at 4am when we're all sleeping and I'm playing Farmville...and just by our mere debate...we may help them find the AHA moment. So it really is a collective effort. AND so I think this was very healthy even though we share differing views...we're getting eachother to think... Hugs!
Mar 20 - 11PM (Reply to #45)
Steph
Steph's picture

hugs to you too:)

hugs to you too:)
Mar 20 - 10PM (Reply to #41)
Steph
Steph's picture

ps. this is in response to

ps. this is in response to Michelle115...:)
Mar 20 - 10PM
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Co-dependency, Empaths, Society...WTH. Still clusterscrewed...

MY OPINION...it's all labels...it's what we feel comfortable with...what our reality is its what exists and it is what we are...period...be whatever shoe fits, or walk barefoot...there is no absolute answer...Freud was a coke-head. That being said... I do have legitimate questions about THIS article...and it is not to discredit but to incite discussion...but not to argue a particular label...but to try to gain some insight and perhaps be more aware of those things we accept and/or reject. I think that it is very important for all of us...whatever method we choose - whatever label we feel fits...that we do take careful inventory...there are good guru's and bad ones...choose carefully. NOW...I've read this article twice...this is my third go around...and I am still confused and do not feel the author has made a significant point on any level...just took a whole bunch of things threw them at the wall and hoped something would stick. Personally I do agree that the term co-dependence by default does blame A victim simply because the criteria implies that there is something dysfunctional about the victim something that needs fixing...the fact is, if you study basic psychology...you can fit the mold...look at how the personality disorders overlap. It takes skill to decipher what makes one suffer from a disorder vs. traits as we as humans are very complex...NOTE THE NORMAL humans, no doubt in my mind the flavor of disorder we've been victimized by...the tales we've shared...no there is no gray...but for most...and especially us the victims...I think the best service we can perform for ourselves is to be open...take what applies and leave the rest. AND that is with EVERYTHING... so...here goes....and I won't go through the six things as in another post, I dissected and expressed my point of view... Victims of intimate partner abuse are not codependent I think victims of intimate partner abuse can be many things...there is no ONE label to define any given victim, we each have different backgrounds...one might believe they're co-dependent, another an empath, another still a victim of a chauvenist world...However, if they are not co-dependent *which I don't think all are...I'd be curious to know what this author believes the victim IS...this is the first weakness I observe in this article. Research with women shows that the above six characteristics are an effect of experiencing long-term, ongoing, relentless abuse and control. The research is not cited, nor numbers used research could have entailed ten women...is this an accurate representation? Many male perpetrators degrade and intimidate women into believing they deserve physical violence, sexual violation, verbal abuse, or other forms of punishment. A tactic of abuse entails brainwashing women into believing they think and feel something other than they actually do. Many domestic violence perpetrators control the decision-making. Many make women wrong for making decisions, or denigrate any decisions made by women. Many male perpetrators enslave women, making demands that she be a more than perfect housekeeper, partner, parent or woman. No human can meet those kinds of demands, hence can never be ‘good enough’. Being degraded several times a day, or several times a week, month after month after month leads to feeling unlovable and unworthy. And all of this is valid and any one of us could have written the above paragraph; however, the important question is...at the first, second or third incident...what kept the VICTIM trapped in the web? What was it about the victim that was different from another individual that would have walked away? Changing her values and integrity to avoid rejection or anger are often consciously chosen strategies of self-preservation used by abused and controlled women. Yes, she changed her values, integrity all of it...and she's still there...WHY? Women I have interviewed would confront the man, avoid the man, lie to get some freedom, be completely honest to try to make him stop controlling them, become violent themselves, retaliate verbally, be passive or silent. Why are they still there? Yet these women would secretly harbour knowledge of their true selves, whilst attempting a variety of behaviours – that went against their values – in order to avoid, or stop the abuse. These are not strategies of a codependent person. Okay - WHAT ARE THEY? It is dangerous to give the ‘codependent’ label to victims of intimate partner abuse Codependence implies a lack of assertion. And, where is the assertion in a woman who still stays? Isn't the greatest statement of assertion drawing the line and saying I will not tolerate this abuse and I am out of here? Rather than clinging and staying hoping, thinking and embracing magical thinking that this somehow will change "one day"? Whereas, if a woman asserts her opinions, needs, or rights to a controlling man, he could then engage in more or worse abuse to stamp out her assertiveness. So she stays anyway...why? AND what do we call this behavior? It may, therefore, be dangerous for a psychologist to coach a woman to assertively stand up to her partner. Anyone wishing to help such a woman should respect her reasoning for not asserting herself. Agreed, until a safe plan can be put in place...but in the meantime...there is a ticking timebomb about to blow... So what is the answer? AND whomever is reading this if they are a professional, they haven't been given the tools from this article to know what to do other than..."Not coach a woman to take a stand." Well, this to me is just as damaging...if a woman is sitting in a shrinks office, a victim of abuse, her mind is cluster effed, she's not thinking clearly...and so the shrink should sit there and respect her reasoning? IF she's abused, more than likely her reasoning is long gone! Codependence implies women serve others to the detriment of flourishing to her full potential. Whereas, women who want to, or do, attend tertiary schooling to improve their skills and talents, can actually experience more, or worse, abuse by their partner because he wants to ensure she does not grow. Yes we know this...SO what is the answer? For example, a man interviewed by Eva Lundgren (1995) said, “It makes her reconsider when I lock her up in a cupboard. Then she gets scared. Give her a sense of her total dependency, that’s the only way.” Therefore, it may be dangerous for a psychotherapist to encourage a woman to go against her partner’s demands by attending school. People in the helping professions need to listen to women’s views on how detrimental to her safety such a step might be. Listening is good...but the author does not give any indication of what those in the helping professions should do which is WHY we are all here...which is why, many of us can't find a shrink that can actually HELP us...there are no definitive answers on the PDI's and by default, we as victims remain endlessly screwed with little or no resources...which is WHY I thank GOD for this forum. Codependence implies women stay with violent and otherwise abusive men because they are attracted to being abused, like it, and want it. I don't think - that is what co-dependence applies at all. I do disagree with the application for me, and yes, many others because we deal with different issues/traumas BUT reading what co-dependence is...essentially it is another means of becoming AWARE of WHY a problem within oneself MAY exist...and so if it can help SOME I don't think that it should be discounted either...I think it is a case by case basis. Whereas, in reality, women engage in multiple strategies to stop the abuse, to help the man change, to protect themselves and their children, or to avoid being abused in the first place. AND maybe a good start in the psych industry would be to get the woman to understand...she can't change anyone but herself. This article doesn't even suggest that as a start...it goes in circles. It may be dangerous for a counsellor to encourage a woman to leave. Social workers should honour women’s knowledge about what will, and will not, keep her safe, and that might mean staying with the abuser. Yes, but this author does not specify for how long. Literally, if I were a counsellor, I'd take this to mean what? Let her linger in abuse and collect the co-pay, write the script at the end of the session and let her know..."DING" time's up see ya next week? It definitely means that multiple services are required to support the woman’s safety, such as police, safe housing, and financial support agencies. Yes, that is true, but 3/4 of this article explained nothing and now points out it is a multifaceted approach which is logical, but again the issue is the co-dependence label, the author is against the label but has not maintained a position on what the true issue is...which I don't know either...but I just have a problem with the article itself if it is a "position" paper on why co-dependence isn't an option. Which again, for me I don't think it is, but for some it might be. Blaming the victim is tantamount to abusing her Anyone who gives the ‘codependent’ label – to anyone who is living with a man who engages in a degrading pattern of psychological abuse and control – is blaming the victim and pathologising her. HOW SO? WHY is she staying? This label implies the victim has behaviours that pull the abuse out of the man. I have read nothing about the label that implies it and I read Co-dependent No More by the woman who coined the term... Yet, Jeff Hearn’s (1998) in-depth interviews with male perpetrators shows, for example, that some men threaten suicide as a way of ensuring women do not leave them, and other men threaten to harm or kill pets, children, family, friends and/or the woman herself. AND I hate to say it...if I were a therapist, I'd have a couple of sets of butcher knives and when my client said "He threatened to kill himself, I'd have to say..."Here's a knife - give it to him"...but that's just me. Many perpetrators of intimate partner abuse consider themselves to be the King of the Castle, the Boss, the Master who must be obeyed at all costs. Such attitudes may creep in slowly over time entrapping and disempowering their female partners. AND WHY?...why?...how and why do these women become entrapped? These men may also be charming, caring, protective and kind at other times. This is confusing to women. Yes, but for how long? Many women spend years attempting to understand and change the man’s abusive behaviours – they do not accept abuse as their lot. Spend years trying to change the man...what molded the women to think this way, that it is their job and their responsibility to do that? The subject of this website is domestic violence which is different to mutual abuse – it is about one person’s campaign to control the other through whatever means they find works. For example, one of the men Cavanagh and her colleagues (2001) interviewed said he “was a bit of a tactician” and that he would “more or less try to intimidate her by going quiet and staring.” This kind of intentional behaviour aimed at subservience, and at lowering a woman’s sense of self-esteem, worth and personal integrity, is a hallmark of a systematic pattern over time. A pattern that entails the male abuser refusing to take responsibility for his behaviours and entails blaming the woman, confusing her, isolating her, making her wrong and demanding respect for his position as the man. Coping with such behaviours does not make a woman codependent. I do agree, but I'm almost done here and I still don't have an answer for what it is...or the why or the how... Power and control over women is a social issue This is not about a woman being codependent by reinforcing the man’s behaviour. The need that many men have to establish and maintain authority over women is a social issue – an issue of contemporary expectations of masculinity. It may be a social issues, but not every woman tolerates this abuse...what makes one tolerate while another will outright reject it? My research with male perpetrators shows that this is a way for certain men to avoid feeling weak, vulnerable and feminine – as not being a so-called ‘real man’ is considered inferior. Controlling a female partner is a socially sanctioned way for the man to gain social kudos. Men who control their partners know what they’re doing. Many men provoke women to do something that the man then believes will justify hitting her. For instance, a man interviewed by Cavanagh and colleagues (2001) said he’d “do anything to get an excuse” to use violence against his partner. I believe this fully...and it's sick and enraging. In sum, any psychological issues female victims experience, that resemble characteristics deemed to be codependent, are a result of incessant abuse and control by their male partners, and are reinforced by social issues that support male authority in the home and male control and possessiveness over humans and animals in the home. BUT, this is an absolutist statement...some do have other issues that don't fall into this category and when arguing a position all sides must be taken into consideration...this author does not do that. Women’s coping strategies should be taken seriously. Blaming women revictimises them, further isolates them and deepens their growing sense of not being good enough. But, I still do not see the specific reasoning how or why the author arrived at the conclusion that the term co-dependent actually blames the victim? The criteria for being co-dependent are a set of behaviors to a "label" and for some it might fit... So while I do not feel I am co-dependent - I am in favor of such a "label" for whomever feels it might apply...just as equally as someone who feels they fell victim because they were an "empath" as well as say "core issues" just as much as someone who has no idea but feels that June Cleaver did a job on her along with every television show and barbie doll and tea set they ever received. Thoughts?
Mar 20 - 10PM (Reply to #36)
gettinbetter
gettinbetter's picture

Michelle Michelle Michelle I

Michelle Michelle Michelle I knew we would get a long response from you LOL. Look fence rider pick a side LOL LOL. No in all seriousness I totally get what you are saying. For me its always been about my need to control and please. If I please I control they go hand in hand for me. To me staying in victimhood too long is quite dangerous it doesnt promote healing it simply does not. No one made me stick around. He did not force me to put up with his abuse. I vouluntarily engaged even when I saw all of the red flags and had been subjected to his abuse once before. That simply is not the behvior of an emotionally healthy person. I can blame him till the cows come home but whats that doing for me? NOT A DAMN THING. I own my role in this. I could have stopped at anytime. I didnt and thats all on me. Now whats the root of my behavior? Is it really him? Nope. I simply handed him all of my power on a silver platter. Its ok to be in victimhood for a time but there comes a time to move from it and except your responsibility and your root issues I personally subscribe to Shari's core wound and toxic shame theory. Codependency is merely one manifestation of that there are many others such as anorexia, OCD, Bulemia and PDI. Codependence is about a dysfunctional relationship with the self. I would say by my behavior that my relationship with myself has become pretty damned dysfunctional. Functionally emotionally healthy people arent begging a man who abused them to take them back or continue the relationship. They just arent
Mar 21 - 7AM (Reply to #39)
kerellen
kerellen's picture

i agree

i too am not sold on the "co-dependent" label BUT...i agree with you in regards to owning my role in the roller coaster. i could have stopped it, i KNEW it wasn't right, deep down i knew. so i do blame myself for my actions and behavior. i have now made a conscious choice to stop how i react to it all. the relief is that my exnh has found a new "love". good for me, don't know for her. that is why i cannot fully blame my ex either, but i can move on now, get peace and clarity in my life with help from friends and family. believe me, i am not in denial. it has been a hell of a road. i am moving on with a totally different perspective and outlook.
Mar 20 - 10PM (Reply to #37)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Sickofit!

My darling I wish I could take a side...if only I felt I knew the answer! I love it all! I embrace it all! I want to heal dammit! But I haven't found the right shoe yet! Well, that's not accurate...I have a few pairs I'm considering, but still looking you know...its a process but feeling okay with the window shopping for now...enjoying it...feel at peace... Nonetheless - look at how you took off flying when somethng clicked for you! As a moderator - I just want all of us to find the right damn shoe! Whichever one...some will be in stilettos, some will be in clarks, some will go barefoot - as long as it fits and you feel good...it's allll good. Hugs!
Mar 21 - 9AM (Reply to #38)
gettinbetter
gettinbetter's picture

I was blind but now I see.

I was blind but now I see. Its like I have had my sight restored. It was the things that I dug in about and opposed that ended up being my truth. I am so glad that everyone got me uncomfortable and pissed off enough to cause me to ponder why they had that view. People here saw what I couldn't see. So it was that together with Sharis stuff and some of my own research on trauma bonding and it all came together. I am not healed but I'm not in bondage anymore. I feel my anxiety leaving. Its actually incredible
Mar 20 - 9PM
gettinbetter
gettinbetter's picture

Its not about blaming the

Its not about blaming the victim. Its about addiction and control. Some people may not have those issues. I do. I am addicted to him. I have wanted to stay in contact with someone who is abusive to me. At the end of the day. How do explain the addiction, the need to fix? He didnt force me to stay. I did so willingly. Codependence is simply one form of manifestation of a core wound. This addiction and many others are about toxic shame and core woundedness. I have spent months and months educating myself on this. Codependence has nothing to do with blaming the victim its about taking responsibility for have stayed engaged
Mar 21 - 5AM (Reply to #34)
ImStrong
ImStrong's picture

I fully 100% agree and

I fully 100% agree and thankyou for saying this...its about taking responsibility it is not a attack on the victim.its just taking your responsibility fo your half of the relationship..nothing more..

"In the fiery pit lays a man with two faces.One is the face of a God and the other a face of the Devil.Beware He lurks your souls.Keep one hand on your heart and the other hand over your eyes. Let him walk pass you not into you.Ghost of love will possess

Mar 20 - 9PM (Reply to #33)
Susan32
Susan32's picture

Addiction/enabling

I talked about this with my therapist. He has handled abuse cases... and he brought up the issues of enabling/addiction to the drama. When I realized MY part in the enabling, my addiction to the highs&lows... that's why I got out. I came to the point of "I can't take this anymore."