The Other Side to the "Co dependence" way of thinking.....

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Mar 20 - 9PM (Reply to #2)
Steph
Steph's picture

well, if u actually read this

well, if u actually read this article, then I must say, you are a very fast reader. Co dependence CAN definately invoke a "victim blaming" connotation.
Mar 20 - 9PM (Reply to #32)
gettinbetter
gettinbetter's picture

were not gonna agree on this

were not gonna agree on this but I can honestly say I dont come here looking for answers anymore. I know them now. Unfortunately or fortunately it took a few people on here getting me a little uncomfortable that allowed me to examine what my behaviors are indicative of. As far as fast reading yeah Im pretty fast. My 7 year old reads 200 words per minute
Mar 20 - 9PM (Reply to #3)
Steph
Steph's picture

sorry..

it's just that i barely hit "post" and u are already responding. I am not trying to be rude....even if it is coming across that way. I am just very anti codependent!
Mar 20 - 9PM (Reply to #4)
gettinbetter
gettinbetter's picture

This is all Im gonna say and

This is all Im gonna say and then Im gonna just let others comment. If something strikes a nerve with you it needs examination. There are plenty of people on here that can tell you about a thread on self esteem that really struck a nerve with me and I defeneded my position till the end. What was the result in the end they were right and I thank them for it.
Mar 20 - 9PM (Reply to #5)
Steph
Steph's picture

My ex Narc....struck a nerve

My ex Narc....struck a nerve with me. And I have examined it. That's why I am here. And have been in therapy for it. One theme re: co dependence that bothers me is the need to fix/control people. That's not why I was on this relationship. I HAVE been single for long periods. And I was happy that way. According to co dependent theories....I shouldn't be happy on my own.....from what I understand, anyways. My point is, I was fine until I was abused/mistreated/assaulted etc. I did not ask to be abused because it made me feel "wanted".... I thought I was in a NORMAL relationship in the begininng....one of respect and care and compassion.....then later found out I was fooled. My "issues" and confusion developed from brainwashing......and Ya, damn right I was MAD about that. Who wouldn't be?
Mar 21 - 6AM (Reply to #6)
ImStrong
ImStrong's picture

Co deprndency does mean a

Co deprndency does mean a need to fix help someone..due to the list above those traits can lead you to that..the core is low self esteem will lead you to have the need to fix or help someone..if you have low selfesteem which the narc attracts to specifically only..then yes at one point due to that you tried to change him..you may do it passively and not be aware..we doit to friends..coleuges..family..children..it lifts the negatives about ourselves off of us..and we get to focuse on everyone else except ourselves..that is tru co dependency..we need others to depend on to make ourselves feel better.. This can in the form of needing a man..a friend..a great car..or lifestyle..anything to make us feel good..anything we can change..rearange..or help to cover ower insecurities and dull patches..anything to cover us and our imperfections..low self esteem Where co dependent as a narc in need of supply..it feels good to have someone to change rearange or "help".it makes us feel normal.. Alot of us saw a diamond in the ruff when we saw the narc or a rose in the concrete.we thought we can "change" him or make him " better".. And this was all before the abuse..his certain lost boyish character is what hooked many of us to them..the part that seems "changeable"...the part that seemes we can " help" ..narc specifically play these helpless characters to attract you because they know generally women are nuturers and like to "help"..to say how you didnt want to change or help him is A disbalief..we are nutures by nature..woman have emotions that lead us to help or rearange..we are fixers..narc just create the mask equiped to collect and attract co dependents..which are nuturers with self seteem problems..wich is a burger with extra cheese for a feeding hungry narc....

"In the fiery pit lays a man with two faces.One is the face of a God and the other a face of the Devil.Beware He lurks your souls.Keep one hand on your heart and the other hand over your eyes. Let him walk pass you not into you.Ghost of love will possess

Mar 21 - 6AM (Reply to #15)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Imstrong

I don't know if the answer can be as absolute. I stand in my position that the source of how we got into this situation varies. For me, it still seems plausible that in some cases, it has more to do with societal assumptions of what women should be, how that has in some cases molded us to be exactly what you describe...nurturers and fixers. It's the fiber of society since the dawn of time. Are there SOME who fit into the co-dependency THEORY...I surmise that is so. BUT, I don't think the co-dependency label is a particular solution or answer that will fit all. This isn't about denial either - when one is unaware of manipulative behavior, it can take a while to catch on? Especially IF your heart is in the right place, you assume others are dealing with you just as fairly. These Narcs are such masterful manipulators...if they can leave shrinks shaking their heads, I don't know if it's fair to label an entire group of people as suffering from a particular affliction. I mean professionals who study psychology get taken. So I don't think we CAN lump all victims into this model. I think that if an individual has certain insight into themselves and can relate...and feels they identify with a particular philosophy that's fine...but I still feel that there will not be a definitive answer as to what the UNIVERSAL problem is...I think it is based upon the individual and the specific set of circumstances. If that were true, then we'd have to say that the shrinks are co-dependent too if they can be conned. I think for some due to "ignorance" they just missed the signs and fell deeper and deeper. I think a true co-dependent would stay forever...because they are just that...co-dependent. The fact that someone was able to summon the strength to leave I think by default might actually discount in this particular scenario the co-dependent label. Whether it was five months, ten months, ten years...if one is blind and can't see that does not make them co-dependent. If someone is brainwashed...then how can they know...and this form of abuse is stealth and subtle. In some cases, yes it is blatant abuse and we wonder....WHY? But again that can be layers of things. Someone who was abuse in childhood would have a certain set of issues that might not make them feel that the abuse was "so bad"...because to them it's normal...but that is not defined as co-dependency. That is just one example. There are many different scenarios that could explain the why...
Mar 21 - 7AM (Reply to #17)
ImStrong
ImStrong's picture

Absolutley agree with you on

Absolutley agree with you on many parts... What I have clearified and seen are that many therapists..and psycologists..shrinks themselves are narcissist and can be borderline..some even deem co dependent.. So knowing that as a possible fact ..im not shocked if there lured in or lured out... It is true if you are co dependent you cannot stay away and nc has proven it works by being nc...but... We break nc dozens of times..hundreds of times..weare fighting our addiction..of what I beleive is co dependent.... We need the narc we crave him. We even crave him before the abuse.. We are addicted but I think not to him but his problems..we like to fix the argument to make things all better .. We wanted to make him gold again not brass..we then went back to our low selfesteem and blamed ourselves when we couldnt " fix " it..we then came here to ask what did we do wrong.. But before that we searched for answers on the net or books..friends to again try to fix it or "fix him"... We are not only conditioned by the world to be fixers ..we are mothers who birth we ceated the land..we a born to change and help.. That what fears the narc so much about us is our power to change and fix and create..we are a giant in there eyes or a raging population that must be controlled.. We have so much power that we cannot see..and the narc likes it like that.. I beleive that if we would of known our power..wewould of left earlier..but due to some insecutities and some co dependency issues we attracted a narc and found it hard to leave

"In the fiery pit lays a man with two faces.One is the face of a God and the other a face of the Devil.Beware He lurks your souls.Keep one hand on your heart and the other hand over your eyes. Let him walk pass you not into you.Ghost of love will possess

Mar 21 - 8AM (Reply to #20)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

I think it is the absolutes that I'm having a problem with

in terms of accepting. To say we "need the narcs" that isn't true IN every case. In some cases, I'll use me for example...once I was able to see the writing on the wall - the rest was shock. There is cognitive dissonance that takes place, you don't know what the hell just happened, what hit you. Again, for someone that stayed during blatant abuse...perhaps... But when you say one craved the narc before abuse...YES...and there is a scientific medical biologically proven reason for that craving and it's called endorphins and I think dopamine and seratonin that your body is giving off which is how man in general was able to evolve and procreate...those chemicals are going haywire which is why there is a craving... THE same chemicals that drug addicts are trying to emulate so yes there is an actual chemical addiction taking place. One that when severed might make one go into withdrawal and do some nutty stuff as the body comes down? AND again co-dependency may be the answer for some, but I can't say I believe it is the answer for everyone. It's the aboslutes I think I am having a hard time with.
Mar 21 - 8AM (Reply to #21)
ImStrong
ImStrong's picture

Ya ive notice its a little

Ya ive notice its a little difficult to understand for many..i feel like the narc where im askng why is it so difficult...i dont get it.. I cant see why it is..to me its simple.. I also beleive the chemical conection can create a addictive high..I know about it..but..what I also beleive is that the narc like any well trained jerk who has tought himself the rules on how to pick up chicks..in our case narc on how to pick up supply..is that they focuse on our goodness and ability to want to better people..they know how to "catch us" .. With the right words right maneuvers..we too along with the chemical high became addicted to there co dependent trap for co dependents.. In other words they gathered all the right fixings and trims to lure us in..us who beleive theres good in everyone..and that people can "change" That I beleive made our addiction even stronger

"In the fiery pit lays a man with two faces.One is the face of a God and the other a face of the Devil.Beware He lurks your souls.Keep one hand on your heart and the other hand over your eyes. Let him walk pass you not into you.Ghost of love will possess

Mar 21 - 9AM (Reply to #22)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

But there are some inconsistencies in the position you're taking

AND not with you feeling that the co-dependency theory works for you...but some of the things you state in terms of again...absolutes... Ya ive notice its a little difficult to understand for many.. I don't think it's difficult for people to understand, I think that each person knows their own set of circumstances. Prior to the Co-dependency model, there was the TA model...there has since the dawn of time been theories explaining HUMAN behavior...and each one has a new and improved spin. This will continue and ten years from now, it will be called something else with a whole new explanation... i feel like the narc where im askng why is it so difficult... But the Narcs aren't asking why...they're just doing it without skipping a beat and waltzing off into the sunset. With the right words right maneuvers..we too along with the chemical high became addicted to there co dependent trap for co dependents.. This is an absolute statement, again, based upon assumption without taking into account individual experiences. One size does not fit all. And while I don't expect you to outline every possible scenario I don't think everyone can be lumped in this category. Moreover, historically, the co-dependency theory was essentially modeled for relationships that invovled those in AA then it branched over to the other 12 step programs where there was a pattern of "co-dependency" however, may notable people have spoken out against that theory simply because it defies in a sense if you were to buy into it word for word and used it as the model of a basis for a healthy relationship and were to attempt to achieve non-co-dependence in it's entirety then you are essentially dealing with yourself only...totally separate and detached. That is what they preach when you are co-dependent...to detach. AND if you're detached then you're not in a relationship. SO right now most of us are detached...but there is no answer as to how to "cure" this co-dependency and my next question is that when you get into the next relationship if the only cure is detachment then I'd have to presume based on this theory that the only solution then would be to engage in being in a co-dependent relationship again...which means essentially you've got two choices...stay single forever, or get ready for more of the same. That is why I personally debunk the theory...I get they came up with a term...but they haven't addressed the cure...other than detachment... In other words they gathered all the right fixings and trims to lure us in..us who beleive theres good in everyone..and that people can "change" Moreover, if people can't change then why are any of us here?...we will stay the same if we can't change no? Or is there a faction that is exclusive to change? Was it an error to give someone the benefit of the doubt? To think that someone can change?... That I beleive made our addiction even stronger Once I saw the writing on the wall, I can't say I was addicted...I was distraught, upset, in shock and really had no idea what happened. I also don't think that my situation was unique...although I am sure there will be a diversity of descriptions to our reactions when we ran full speed into the wall of reality.
Mar 21 - 10AM (Reply to #25)
gettinbetter
gettinbetter's picture

To heal codependence you have

To heal codependence you have heal your core wound. You cannot heal from a core wound when you still engage with someone who is continuing to abuse you. So yes you have to detach. Yes it is about yourself. In fact its all about yourself that's why you engage and become addicted to people who need fixing. Its because you don't want be alone with yourself because that's entirely too painful to deal with so you deal with other peoples problems that's why codependents are drawn to the helping professions. I don't know why the term gets people so worked up. Its like it envokes shame for some people and that in and of its self is indicative of something whatever you want to label it when something like that strikes a nerve and you feel defensive I truly believe that it means that there is truth in it for you but you are simple not in an emotional place where you can see and accept it so your mind completely rejects it. I think its our mind protecting us from what we are not yet able to handle
Mar 21 - 10AM (Reply to #31)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

As an aside...

If it's any conselation...I do agree with the core wound...I have one...but otherwise haven't really exhibited the co-dependent behaviors...maybe intermittently, but not to the degree that I feel it was a sigificant barrier to the success or failure of a relationship. Maybe in my teens and early twenties...but not later... But I did have a trauma in early childhood and that re-surfaced with the narc...but for me the narc at the end triggered the issue - prior to that, I was just hoodwinked. 911 I also re-visited the trauma but did not make the conection that I had trauma issues.
Mar 21 - 10AM (Reply to #26)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Sick of it

I think in some cases, absolutely when people get worked up sometimes it's a trigger. BUT I equally feel that we all have dealt with "brainwashing" and that all of us also might be a bit more protective of our feelings, our boundaries, what we want to accept and what we don't want to accept and that the specific set of circumstances that brought all of us here...WE ALL AGREE on NARCS and we all agree on WHAT MAKES THEM NARCS...and we don't argue at all about the abuse and such...we're all kumbaya on that... That just like you, just like me, we all have to arrive at our own truths in our own time? And so in trying to be mindful of the newcomers and the various stages of recovery...and the fact that all we believe essentially - up to and including what we know about NARCS are all theory... It's like religion...you follow what you believe in but there is no right or wrong answer. I can't sit here and say SOI - NO, that's not it for you...you did the reading, you did the work, you saw what fits. BUT equally there are so many other theories as to how women like us end up in these situations...that I don't think it's fair to try to convince others? I think that it is cheating them of the process? Note, some folks have read Schriebers work and they've said you know...this works for me too - but others simply don't feel it fits and I stand firmly in my belief that it's not about denial, it's not about it being tabu...I mean heck you know let's face it...when we came to this forum we all had SHAME...all of us - we were broken, we were not proud, we had no concept at all how the hell we ended up in this situation...I mean, I don't think ONE of us EVER thought we'd be here...but we are. AND so with that in mind, with all that has to be processed...it is a delicate and sensitive journey and I think that if we are...well let me say it...if I want to heal and equally help others...for me...I want that person to feel empowered...I don't want to make an assertive suggestion and more importantly, I don't want to tell them what I think it is...because they won't own it. Sick of it - and again I am anti-codependent...BUT think back say three month's ago. If I were in your shoes and I said: This is what I think...blah blah...and you weren't ready...if I said it once or ten times would it sink in? Would you own it? NO you wouldn't...and so I am simply saying that whatever truth anyone here arrives at...they get support, they get suggestions, and I will throw in my "why's" but in the end...their true moment...their Eureka has to come from them...from what they relate to...what clicks for them...whatever that is...or else, if it's not real for them, if they just go along...they're not healed...they're following...and that is dangerous. This works for you. You are not following ...you believe this, you identify, you relate...but others can't be cheated they have to have their chance to arrive at it the same way you did. I get your being so overwhelmed with joy right now because it is a sigh of relief, it's an answer, it's a release but others aren't there yet. In some cases, yes...absolutely, when a nerve is struck that's usually when there is resistance...BUT not always...it could also be victims re-learning how to assert themselves and we need to respect that process as well.
Mar 21 - 12PM (Reply to #29)
Steph
Steph's picture

And again, Michelle, well

And again, Michelle, well articulated! I just want to say, although I don't like the term "codependent" - for all the reasons I have already stated - this is not what "hits a nerve" with me. What bothers me is the thinking by others that if I or someone else does not believe this model fits for us, then we must "not understand it" be "in denial", have not done our "internal work" etc. That is what I have a huge problem with. I have done MY work. I have read books, articles, been to therapy. I sat in an office with a therapist, every week, for two hours and this person, having met me in person, did NOT label me as codependent. Perhaps a PhD that has met me is in "denial" or doesn't "understand" things either?? I think it's dangerous to be be so close minded that you think YOUR way is the ONLY way. To be blunt - I think it is an arrogant way of thinking. I know me better than anyone and like I said, believe me, I have done my homework and I'm intelligent enough to come to my own conclusions and personal growth without being TOLD how I SHOULD be. Suggestions are great, gets the mind exploring, but forcing your thoughts ideas on someone else, is not helpful or appreciated. And now, I am going to Switzerland. I hear it's nice there:)
Mar 21 - 4PM (Reply to #30)
gettinbetter
gettinbetter's picture

Staying Strong it seems like

Staying Strong it seems like you think I and others are attcking you. No one is attacking you but you seem a bit defensive. If anyone here could be defensive its me. Im the one who posted my truth and is having it picked apart and thats ok thats what these boards are for. If someone learns from this or gets something from my truth then that great even if I get told my truth isnt accurate. Lets face it growth doesnt come from a bunch of kumbaya moments and telling you what you want to hear or not hear but I never said you were arrogant? If I might add you started your posted with the words "I dont want to seem confrontational" I usually find that when people start sentences like that they are about to do just what they said they didnt want to do. Atleast thats been my experience. But like Ive said thats fine. No one is gonna get any benefit from this board if all you have is a bunch of Kumbaya moments going on. You see you said you have your truth and I think thats great but you didnt share it with any of us for some reason and thats fine too but perhaps someone might learn something from it? Atleast I was willing to put mine out there. Hope it helps someone
Mar 21 - 10AM (Reply to #27)
ImStrong
ImStrong's picture

As always Michelle

As always Michelle very...very well written..we all need to get "there" on our own..and when we get there we must own it..just like sick of it...its always refreshing to hear all of you..we all are strong

"In the fiery pit lays a man with two faces.One is the face of a God and the other a face of the Devil.Beware He lurks your souls.Keep one hand on your heart and the other hand over your eyes. Let him walk pass you not into you.Ghost of love will possess

Mar 21 - 11AM (Reply to #28)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

I concur ImStrong

We are very strong, and we will all get eachother through this...debating every theory known to God and Man searching for meaning and truth...LMAO! BUT we will all get there... Hugs!
Mar 21 - 10AM (Reply to #24)
ImStrong
ImStrong's picture

Co dependency very touchy

I beleive its either heads or tales for any of us..its a discussion of opinion.. We may not all agree at the same time..about the same thing..this is above all always been a touchy discussion..no matter if anyone catagorized every victim as co dependent or not..it has always been "taboo" and very touchy..but in no way ami generalizing .. I speak for myself and those who are on the same page as me..now research may be generalizing..even if its.for co dependrncy or not..when they say that co dependency is caused after abuse only..that to me is generalizing just the same

"In the fiery pit lays a man with two faces.One is the face of a God and the other a face of the Devil.Beware He lurks your souls.Keep one hand on your heart and the other hand over your eyes. Let him walk pass you not into you.Ghost of love will possess

Mar 21 - 10AM (Reply to #23)
ImStrong
ImStrong's picture

I think what was overlooked

I think what was overlooked or looked in a different way was ..i descibing many..some or just plain old speaking for myself..i wasnt implying or speaking for every one..i spoke for what " I beleive" which I mentioned..ofcouse there are different situations absolutley..mine is one... I just have no problem with co dependency ..and was speaking for myself and many..not all When I say I feel like a narc asking why you feel that way it was mirrored by how the narc cannot understand how we feel..like a blind not knowing how to see..narc only knows one way just like a blind only knows how to be blind..i just only get co dependency right now..im not saying it wont change with new research.. I feel we all have something other than the narc in common that brung us here..it could be co dependency..i never said all of us are co dependent but I do think its a possibility... I stand here as. A co dependent

"In the fiery pit lays a man with two faces.One is the face of a God and the other a face of the Devil.Beware He lurks your souls.Keep one hand on your heart and the other hand over your eyes. Let him walk pass you not into you.Ghost of love will possess

Mar 21 - 7AM (Reply to #18)
Steph
Steph's picture

But, again, the things you

But, again, the things you are describing as meaning one is codependent ie) breaking NC.....can be exxplained by other theories too. Stockholm syndrome, trauma bonding, cog. dissonance....
Mar 21 - 7AM (Reply to #19)
ImStrong
ImStrong's picture

I know that to be true but to

I know that to be true but to me I beleive co dependency is the core to those things.. In away also I see stockholme syndrome..trauma bonding cog dissonanse to be more of a after effect than co dependency..i beleive co dependency birth those first in the toxic relationship and the rest came after due to persistant relenctless abuse by the abuser

"In the fiery pit lays a man with two faces.One is the face of a God and the other a face of the Devil.Beware He lurks your souls.Keep one hand on your heart and the other hand over your eyes. Let him walk pass you not into you.Ghost of love will possess

Mar 21 - 6AM (Reply to #16)
Steph
Steph's picture

Thank you for posting this.

Thank you for posting this. You are so articulate! And thank you for pointing out that just because one does not believe in the codependence model, does not mean they are in denial. Hugs:)
Mar 21 - 6AM (Reply to #7)
Steph
Steph's picture

I can see your point here

I can see your point here when you explain it like that. To me, I take the "need" to fix people as a person PURPOSEFULLY SEEKING out relationships with someone that needs fixing. I don't believe that I do this. He initially presented himself as someone who "had his shit together". I thought I hit the jackpot. lol But, yes, once I discovered he really was damaged, I did try to fix/change/help him. So, yes, I see your point here.
Mar 21 - 6AM (Reply to #8)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Stayingstrong

But what you just said doesn't necessarily fit the codependent model. BECAUSE just like yours...yes, mine had his ish together... Over time when things started to fizzle and get inconsistent, we were already invested. When people "love" eachother, don't they look out for one another...then the woman instincts...the fix/help/change cycle starts... I mean we are creators of life it is in our nature to do this so how can what we are biologically built to do and YES...chemicals involved there! THATS why a pregnant woman will lactate when she hears another woman's baby cry...helllooo? It is intrinsic in us. The riddle that needs to be solved is what went wrong in our discernment. So stayingstrong...I'm still not sold that co-dependence is the label for everyone...I don't believe one size fits all. In my case similar to yours...it was subtle, it was stealth, it wasn't blatant it got hairy towards the end and as hard as it was and has hard as I struggled because of the CD yes, I was cycling back and forth a bit...BUT WE LEFT THEM! I don't think that fits the codependency model...at least for me it doesn't and it isn't denial...
Mar 21 - 7AM (Reply to #12)
Steph
Steph's picture

well, i left the first abuser

well, i left the first abuser i was with, but the second one left me lol. I have a fairly strong hunch tho, that I would left eventually.....like I did with the first.
Mar 21 - 7AM (Reply to #13)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Personally

I know a woman who's been in an abusive relationship at least 40 years and she stays...she is trauma bonded she will defend the abuser, and will turn against you if you try to help. She will complain biatch and moan...and stay. I don't know what she is. Actually, she's the Narcs mom...and I should have been wise enough to know that if this is what he came from, this is what he is... But he put on such a good fascade...and I fell for it. Initially sold how mom and dad were happily married 40 years...of course i didn't know them well at first...so what does one say..."Oh, he comes from a family that is solid, stays together...blah, blah, blah..." It took a long time for the layers to unravel and it takes time once invested to figure out some of it...if he's good at what he does. Never laid a hand on me...had a bit of a temper but never struck me and I was never scared...NEVER - only that final blowout I spoke of in my story. In hindsight is when all the flags POPPED but that is because I was a pollyanna that walked around in a bubble always thinking the best of people, always giving folks the benefit of the doubt always wanting to see the good in people because I know how I am and automatically assumed others lived by the same approach. That is how I fell into the trap along with some other issues...
Mar 21 - 7AM (Reply to #14)
Steph
Steph's picture

"I was a pollyanna that

"I was a pollyanna that walked around in a bubble always thinking the best of people, always giving folks the benefit of the doubt always wanting to see the good in people because I know how I am and automatically assumed others lived by the same approach." Ditto. You add to that attitude the fact that they are awesome manipulators and can make you feel guilty for the weather....and you have a recipe for disaster.
Mar 21 - 6AM (Reply to #9)
Steph
Steph's picture

Michelle115

But I'm not sold on the codependence label either! I don't think trying to fix/help makes you codependent.....unless you are seeking it out.....but like I said, it happened after I was with him awhile. Invested, like you say. I can see what ImStrong is saying.....I don't agree its codependence though.....if that makes sense.
Mar 21 - 7AM (Reply to #10)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Stayingstrong...

Okay...good...because I want you to find YOUR answer but I want it to be the right one...*for you* I want your shoe to fit properly too... Hugs!