The ex-Psych prof was one of the most neutral, bland people I've ever known. No wonder I was fighting to be myself the whole time! I ended up having to explore Wittgenstein's philosophy on my own (I still have a substantial Wittgenstein collection-I can separate the great philosopher from the lunatic teacher)... because he REFUSED to help. I was passionate enough about the subject, something he couldn't understand. In a sense, I think he was more enamored of Wittgenstein the man than Wittgenstein the philosopher. Wittgenstein was known for his outbursts of anger at his "stupid" students;he lost his job at an Austrian elementary school because he had beaten a few... and ran away when an angry father confronted him. Wittgenstein would confess to masturbation in his diaries. Wittgenstein had Asperger's,so he had problems relating to others.
The ex-P would claim that he was neutral;he called it Quietism. He'd say how he was aloof from life. His lecture about Wittgenstein and Augustine... was basically repeating what Wittgenstein and Augustine said... instead of coming to ANY conclusions of his own. When I did my senior essay about Augustine, I was passionate about the subject... he has NEVER written about Augustine again (his article on Augustine/Wittgenstein was probably in the publishing pipeline my junior year)... so I guess I'm THAT powerful and FULL OF AWESOME. He used to consider himself a philosopher on the subject of religion, since his grad school days. But as soon as I showed interest in religion, wrote about it... he's a literature expert now.
He'd say that he was a professor because his father is one. He'd say that being a teacher was his way of making $$$. He was neutral about being a teacher.
Susan, it seems to me your ex-Psych professor was anything but neutral. He had judgments about everything even if they weren't based on his own experience.
His 'Quietism' was fine and dandy when it suited him to claim to be so, but I remember several comments by you in which he expressed plenty of criticisms which hurt you and at the same time seemed he was seeking control over you.
That is not neutral in my opinion. He'd like to believe he was above it all, but in my mind he was lower than most in many regards.
I will say again that I am so glad you never got more involved with him than you did. I believe you dodged a bullet with that one - lol!
My backside!!! When I saw his "Quietism on the side of happiness" (no, I didn't go, it would've been the waste of a plane ticket, hotel room),let's just say I had myself laughing, imagining an alternate title with a word for the male reproductive organ...LOL...
"He was lower than most in many regards"-He could've been winning the Most Mocked Professor all these years. Over 4 years, my classmates ENJOYED laughing at him, the way he walked with his nose in the air, his pompous out-there monologues, his tantrums over petty things, and yes, the infamous masturbation jokes. My classmates would hoot over how his multiple facial expressions during seminar meant he was... um, rubbing one out. His colleagues were treated much nicer.
I'm glad I wasn't the one who moved in with him, had his twins, and married him... as a friend of mine said, it was odd how UNenvious I was of the long-distance girlfriend. By the final D&D, I was so tired of him I would've sent him&his girlfriend a copy of the Kama Sutra, aphrodisiacs, massage oils... and I would NOT have deemed it a waste of money.
His criticisms were hurtful&controlling. He even used his father's real-life diabetes as a way to be controlling. He spoke proudly of driving his father nuts (like some Ns/Ps here brag of driving their girlfriends/wives suicidal, to drinking&drugs)
His judgments on everything were based on the movies he saw, TV shows he watched, and his beloved "War and Peace." He was Bartlett's Book of Quotations, incarnate&insane.
A year after the D&D.... when I found out his parents had moved in with him... I was relieved. His parents can deal with him. He has the same maturity level as my baby nephew, except he's a tenured middle-aged professor.
I have to ask myself what exactly am I taking a stand on - TRUTH, LOYALTY, LOVE, FRIENDSHIP, BLOOD RELATIONSHIP, MORAL ISSUE, RECIPROCAL SUPPORT etc. You have to decide the level of importance for each category. You can be my friend and so something that I perceive to be morally wrong and I can still stand with you. I can stand with you publicly without agreeing with what you've said or what you have done and disagree with you privately (in terms of friendship). I do this based on my own level importance for the relationship. Before one makes a decision to Stand or Sit one has to decide what exactly they are standing on and what are they willing to risk. Ultimately choosing to stand sends a message to others. Not standing also sends a message whether we like it or not. For me personally if I have chosen to sit, then the issue or relationship is evidently not worth me getting off my own ass. There is not anything wrong with that because each person has their own internal radar that motivates them to sit or stand. What I stand for someone else may sit. Different folks - Different strokes.
I agree wholeheartely; however, *and I'm speaking for myself* but others may relate...
This WHOLE narc situation has opened up so many cans of worms...
Many of us have reported after the Narc, noticing who else we were surrounded by...
It's almost as if we lived in the fog until the Narc rather uncermoniously woke us up?
This Narc situation caused a complete transformation for me, and triggered an in depth analysis of everything and everyone.
The ones that sit on the sidelines and nod approvingly or not so approvingly are one set of creatures - but the truth is they lack authenticity...they're not relating? They of course have a choice but the relationship when on those terms is shallow at best.
And certainly, we are connected to all kinds of people...different strokes for different folks...but in the "narc" transformation for me, I've decided *or taken a stand* to weed those folks out cause essentially, they're just filler but serve no real purpose and by default, when operating on that level, not much I can give either because it tends to draw me to the "false"...
That is actually what was my breakthrough with the Narc!
I realized that even in an ideal setting, it would all be B.S. and I so detest B.S.!...LOL
He did hoover back talking about wanting to be friends...but he couldn't even be that and the door wasn't gonna be open a crack to see if he could prove me wrong because...HE can't! I know the truth now...
Hugs!
I can definately relate to your comment.
The narc experience initiated a complete transformation for me as well.
Diving into my childhood and examining myself in ways I never had before.
It does force you to analyze the people in your lives and how they make you feel, how you respond to them.
I love how you relay that you "weeded" people out that were just "filler".
Very well put:)
what would you think if peopleimportant for you would have done the same about your situation with the Narcs, stating they do not have enough info? :-)
personally I erased those people from my life.
what about you? did you have any "switzerland" friend? :-)
Some people have done that I'm sure, but none of my close friends because they do have enough info.
I am not concerned really about what the others think because I know my reality and so do those close to me.
The others have a right to need more info for their own perspective and that is fine with me. They don't pretend one thing and do another. They can be Switzerland and I can accept that.
I had a friend who was in an abusive relationship and I know how hard it was for me to see the whole picture until her ex showed his true self to me, not by just the way she presented her reality.
We each have the right to allow our knowledge of the facts to unfold as they will and even though I was sympathetic to her side of the story, I also knew she was not exhibiting healthy behavior herself at the time. Now after the fact, I can form my opinion based on what time and actions by both have suggested to me was the truth.
I think we each need to know the limit of our personal resources for taking a stand. To turn a blind eye when we know what the truth is, is a different matter in my opinion, than remaining neutral because we don't want to be unduly influenced in drawing our own conclusions.
my 2 cents
And a friend supports a friend good bad or indifferent.
I haven't been much of a religious/spiritual fanatic.
I used to hear folks talk about "Love" being the answer in a more universal sense. I never got it...too wishy washy?
But as I'm reading more and learning about myself its becomming clearer about how little we do know about love on a universal level?
When someone is in pain, someone is in pain whether self inflicted or not.
I think a true friend can look beyond that and relate on a soul level to the pain and want to comfort regardless of "facts" pain is pain and I think most of us as "empaths" are drawn to those who are in pain which might explain how we ended up in narcland...
On the subconscious we may have felt something? I dunno...
"I think a true friend can look beyond that and relate on a soul level to the pain and want to comfort regardless of "facts" pain is pain and I think most of us as "empaths" are drawn to those who are in pain which might explain how we ended up in narcland..."
Exactly! I don't feel particularly drawn to people in pain, but I know for a fact I felt I loved my exN on a soul level, which is why I still find it hard to completely give up on him as a person and still care in some respects.
If we are talking about taking a stand on the side of a friend though, if they choose to need more info to understand what my reality is/was before taking a stand then that is their truth. It is what they need and just as we need acceptance, so do they. I don't feel I have the right to insist they give me unconditional support or to even have to know the truth if they feel they can't handle it for their own reasons.
If they are not being truly neutral however and aren't coming from a place of love from within then that is completely different. I do think love is the answer. Unconditional love and acceptance allows us all to live our lives the best we can and to make our own decisions without judgment from others. We each do what we need to do.
In the bigger picture I may very well have needed to experience all of the N abuse and this recovery. Reasons may be unclear, but I am feeling stronger about accepting responsibility for the bad choices I made along the way which brought me here.
My real friends are few that I can trust to support me thick and thin. But they are human too and we all have our moments of weakness or distorted perceptions, for myself if they waver in their support for me I have to view it as their need for some kind of support as well.
In the bigger picture I may very well have needed to experience all of the N abuse and this recovery. Reasons may be unclear, but I am feeling stronger about accepting responsibility for the bad choices I made along the way which brought me here.
I had friends that were "supportive" for the first few weeks, then when I wasn't "better" yet....they basically called me crazy.
Not to my face. They had discussions behind my back.....that one friend eventually told me about.
They told me spending time on support sites wasn't healthy....it was obsessive. They told me the stuff I was reading about narcissism/abuse....was obsessive. Even though this was all recommended by my psychologist.
They made me feel that I really was crazy.
I eventually got sick of their self-righteous attitudes and called them on it. Then I was the bad guy.
Yup.
I no longer have those friends.
I would leave those friends behind as well, what they did was horribly unkind and to criticize your right to find your own way to healing by joining forums like this is ignorant and shows their own self absorption with what they consider the best way for everyone. It seems to me that they did take a stand by voicing their opinion.
To me that is not neutrality. I have discussed what really went down with my narc to very few people outside of only a few of my closest friends. Several 'lesser' friends have no idea what really happened and they don't need to know in the bigger picture.
I wouldn't hesitate to tell them if I thought they wanted to know, but that they would rather just see me move on and be happy again is completely understandable to me. Discounting or minimizing my experience and pain is not acceptable behavior for anyone I'd consider as a friend though.
If some friends would rather remain neutral I can accept that because I am not dependent on them for validation and they are not people I would try to get that from.
I believe we are all where we are on our journeys to learn how to be more authentic, loving and connected. Those who talk behind my back in a dismissive way about my experience are not very far along the path as I see it. In my life they will be left behind naturally as long as I keep looking forward.
Journey on...
"Those who talk behind my back in a dismissive way about my experience are not very far along the path as I see it. In my life they will be left behind naturally as long as I keep looking forward."
Yes! Well said!
And they are no longer my friends...
I've heard the quote: "Stand for something or fall for anything"...
While I understand that at times people are intimidated by "conflict" I think loyalty is a key ingredient to any friendship and I think a true friend won't baffle you with B.S. but in your time of need will stand by you and support you even IF they think you are wrong.
Will get you though the crisis and IF they are are A TRUE friend, will wait for the right time to pull your coat...
I think it's important to note how "friends" treat you when you're down. Many of us here have reported instances where the "friends" almost re-victimized the victim. When someone is hurting, I think the first line of "first aid" is support, not kicking a dog when they're down.
I have one friend one very dear friend who if I confessed I burned a building down would defend my actions to the bitter end and help me plot my escape to Costa Rica. She's also one to call me on my stuff when she thinks I'm being a jerk. And I love her for that.
I wouldn't ever want Switzerland for a friend...I want someone with a spine whose enchancements will actually have meaning.
There is a difference between a true friend and an enabler.
I have a group of girlfriends from high school and college and I have to tell you if I confessed to burning a building down would not help me escape. I can almost guarantee they would be finding the best attorney in town and going down to the police station with me to confess.
In this recovery thing...I've done a lot of asshole things. I've ranted, I've raved, I've broken no contact and I have beaten myself up about it.
NOW there have been some with thier asses up on thier shoulders judging me...talking crap about me, laughing about how I just couldn't get it together...
I came across one of my older rants last night on this thread...I talk about wanting to run him over and over and over again...completely irrational by most "normal" standards...THAT is my burning down the building I am referring to...
AND so, to me a real friend sits with you when you are neck deep in shit and doesn't bat an eyelash and isn't too punk to hold your hand through it AND doesn't join the other hens who talk crap because of "image"
That is what I'm talking about.
She will defend me to the end and thank God with the help on the board and my own real efforts to want to help myself and heal...she hasn't had to call me on my crap...she understands the human condition and that whatever I was feeling rational or not is OKAY.
Exactly! My best friends would want to see me get the help I obviously needed if I were becoming an arsonist. They would be horrified and I would be grateful if they took a stand to help me stop such behavior, however unsupported I felt.
If I had been friends with Hitler growing up, believing him to be honest and moral, I would not have stood by and been loyal to our friendship because it was expected.
I might have still cared deeply about him because of how sick he was, but I would not have supported him or would have wanted to enable his unconscious ability to continue his rampage by standing with him or by his side during it.
This is a very interesting topic to me :)
That when you bring Hitler into the equation that yes, perhaps there are exceptions to the rule...LMAO...
And yes, this thread IS taking quite an interesting turn...
I'm dabbling in Theosophy and searching for truth...fully aware I will most likely never get to the enlightenment in this life or the next BUT you certainly do bring up a compelling point...
I bow gracefully and salute you...
But on the arsonsist thing...hmmm...what if I burned down the Narcs building...would that be okay?...;)
I think there has to be exceptions to the rule, otherwise vowing to stand up for our ex's in marriage could even pose inner conflict when a truth is revealed to us that we didn't know.
I just believe we must all be free to stand up for all truths as we see them and not because it is expected or manipulated out of us because we care for the person or cause which we might want to support.
I know I have been very confused and disorientated in recovery and if some friends found their perspective confused by my expression of it then that has to be okay. I think it is wrong for me to assume they don't care about me. I'm sure they do in the capacity they can. I agree with you that these friendships are likely very shallow and I need those kind too in my life. As long as their intent is honest and not out to hurt me, I see no wrong in accepting the more shallow friendship for what it can be - if anything.
I agree with you completely that our truest real friends will accept our weaknesses and 'faults' in a loving, compassionate way that inspires growth on our part. They will stand by us through everything they find acceptable - which means our intentions need to remain pure as well.
Maybe just burning down the narcs building, with no damage to anyone else in any way would be acceptable ;) lol!
Albert Camus expressed this idea eloquently: "Not to take a stand is in itself to take a stand."
This is very good! I will take a stand when I know the facts. Also, know when to pick your battles.
I think not taking a stand is taking a stand to not take a stand - lol!
Personally, I don't think it favors the guilty party unless one knows without a doubt they are guilty of something for which there was a choice which they intentionally made to cause injury.
I prefer neutrality during most conflicts because often there are many sides to the coin which each contain their own truth so to speak.
Even regarding my ex, I can blame his disorder without blaming him for having it. I feel that is his sickness and his soul is only doing what it knows how to do to survive as he knows it.
That does not excuse his behavior but it also doesn't make me feel like I need to take sides about it and call him an enemy. What he did was not right, but that doesn't necessarily make all of it wrong.
My exN was a multi-faceted experience in my life. He gave some good to me even while taking some of my best. I don't feel like a victim, but a survivor.
Even regarding my ex, I can blame his disorder without blaming him for having it. I feel that is his sickness and his soul is only doing what it knows how to do to survive as he knows it.
Yes!...This is what I've pretty much tried to embrace in order to move past things...that doesn't mean I'll go near him again but it puts things in a perspective that makes it easier to accept.
I like this thought provoking question...not sure in what context Camus was applying his quote...
BUT ME...LOL...
I'd have to go with Wiesel...
I think there are times when it is appropriate to stay neutral; however, lets take for example some of the experiences we're having with friends...
When we feel hurt, broken etc..and they just want to be "Switzerland"...not a good feeling.
I think when it comes to certain "professional" things neutrality might be a good thing if you still want to eat and pay bills...BUT when dealing with matters of right and wrong, morality as best as we can live it...emotions...I think it is incumbent upon us to express our opinions but equally understand that expressing it does not equal that it has to be accepted BUT you made your case or stated your claim.
That's my "Opinion"...
Hugs!
Neutrality
Susan, it seems to me your
Journey on...
Quietism...
Know what you are standing ON
Be wise - Be Smart - Be Well - Be You!
Ditch
michelle115
what would you think if
Some people have done that
Journey on...
A friend is a friend
Michele
Journey on...
Yes...here too...
I had friends that were
Staying Strong
Journey on...
Journey
I've had many Switzerland Friends...
There is a difference between
Let me make it clearer on the burning building
Amen Amen Amen!!
LOL - love it!
Journey on...
I dare say Journey
Michele
Journey on...
Albert Camus expressed this
I think not taking a stand is
Journey on...
Journey
Mariline...
Then of course there is Narc