Why, oh Why?

This is such a great debate. Everybody here brings up such relevant thoughts about this topic. I really do think we are cultured and socialized from birth as women to overlook and cater to men. I am frankly irritated and tired of seeing all the books on 'How to Forgive Your Man' and 'How to Please HIM'...etc....How to 'work things out'...etc....as if society's future existance depends heavily on us as women...to 'keep it all together'... You can't pass by a magazine rack without seeing cover after magazine cover blatantly underlining the titles of articles inside that are really written for women...about "How to please HIM, How to make HIM Happy...How to be the perfect woman in bed for HIM...How to cook for a MAN...How to satisfy HIM...How to be SUPER SEXY for HIM...How to dress for HIM...How to make HIM feel special, How to overlook HIS faults...How NOT to upset HIM...How to be the perfect woman, cook, wife, girlfriend, yadayadayada...OMG...it gets utterly disgusting after a while...We are bombarded with this stuff since we are little girls...it permeates everything (except the DOVE company and their advertising campaign.BRAVO!) So we grow up feeling responsible for virtually every aspect of our relationships...with just about EVERYBODY...but most of all...and especially this...we learn to subjugate ourselves...defer our needs, hopes and desires...and put HIS, and everyone elses first. All of this is very hard to unlearn. We are constantly bombarded with these ideas and taught to overlook so much... It's like we see the red flags...but we are taught to minimize, bypass these red flags and to believe and convince ourselves too, that those red flags aren't so big or important...really...and perhaps we are actually encouraged to think that he 'isn't so bad', that perhaps with enough unconditional love...mind-blowing sex, a back-rub or 2,...a clean house...the right attitude...a great figure...a pretty face, softer more shining hair...being instyle...having big boobs...shapely legs...some high heels...and the perfect potroast...etc.etc.etc....that we can cause HIM to 'get better'...'change in some way'...and not be a Narcopath afterall. Works for THEM!

"Slow down and asses the relationship?" You are not involved in a relationship with a Narcissist. He is only involved in a relationship with himself. I am sorry dear but you are riding alone in this boat so I say rock away cuz you have nothing to loose. Please read more on the traits of a narcissist. only one way to go...Forward (tm?)

My sentiments exactly...the questions and suggestions...I think for some, it is a combination of being brainwashed early on...we are sold the fairy tale and encouraged to preserve that at all costs directly or indirectly we are bombarded with conflicting messages. Remember the Enjoli perfume commercial...I can bring home the bacon, fry it up in a pan, and never let you forget who's the man...SO - the MEDIA run by a bunch of MEN, probably mostly NARCS are pushing this message SUBLIMINALY. Look at what makes the front pages? DYSFUNCTION...Paris, Kardashians, the Lohans...and our girls are looking up to and emulating and our boys are thinking this is what is perfection. QUANTITY over QUALITY. Broken home or not, parents are having to work long hours, coming home after dark, drained, tired and spend. Who's watching the kids, who's molding thier minds...information superhighway...one click of a button you can have anything and everything any time day or night...look at the movies today...there are no good story lines anymore, if it's action packed violent it's a blockbuster hit...not many about the human condition triumph of the spirit... America has become a nation of narcissists. You are absolutely right - we need to take the control back and it starts with what we do with OUR children to protect them and to help ensure that what is considered "normal" adolescent behavior which includes a touch of "healthy" narcissism, does not become full blown narcissism. We need to call our children on their behavior, and put things in check. There absolutely should be a curriculum and I think it will take a whole bunch of lobbying the government to make this part of a national curriculum - it has a lot to do with the bullying we are witnessing on a daily basis. I just had this conversation today with my mother. However, it takes awareness, and consciousness to boycott those messages, and it takes a commitment to take a stand. BUT, progress is made, one small step at a time. We must ensure that we give our children the weapons to protect themselves, while simultaneously ensuring we are not creating such monsters...no easy task but again..."knowledge is power." High Five!

I know self-esteem plays a HUGE role but speaking for myself only, I was in a very vulnerable spot, my marriage was going down the drain, my ex and I were simply roomates, i felt like dry wood rot, beginning of menopause but did not realize it and felt very unsexy, then this man comes along and sweeps me off my feet and makes me feel valuable and lovable again, all classic, wish I had not ignored the signs, then I became obseesed about him and like the spider to the fly , the REST was history.i will always or at least try to. LISTEN to my gut, in that case it was my stomach, sending me anxiey signals.

I have thought about this too. What I have come up with is that, simply put, the pull towards the possibility of "magic" with them was stronger than the pull away from their red flags. We are humans looking for connection, and lord knows they know how to make us connect! In other cases (perhaps my own) the depth of involvement takes us away from our own lives and things we don't want to look at or deal with. So, again, we ignore the red flags to avoid the alternative. And spiritually speaking, we needed to learn a lesson. We needed to work through something. I certainly felt blindsided when I found out about all of the lies and his girlfriend, but looking back now, it's laughable how many red-flags I chose to ignore. So, was I really blindsided after all??? And ultimately I DID learn so much and work through so much that my old self, where men are concerned, that I am unrecognizable. And that is a good thing.

Such excellent questions. Hind sight is always 20/20 (or better). At least we can learn from it and see more clearly as we go forward. I've thought a lot about how young folks can be educated into a place where they'd see these idiots coming at them and avoid everything we've all had to live through. The irony is . . . those of us who have learned these lessons the hard way are the only ones who can teach the class. That's why I'm still here, even though my life is Narc Free (fall on my face in gratitude). Who else can even begin to understand?? I'm a link in a chain of folks who get out, get some healing, and turn around and reach back for the sisters and brothers who still suffer. I think our culture promotes narcissism, from top to bottom. It celebrates youth and beauty, it encourages a focus upon the most superficial things to the exclusion of deeper, more existential realities. We are encouraged to believe there is something WRONG with us if we don't have a man in our bed, we aren't much of a woman unless we've been able to catch one, anyway. I tell you what. I'm in my mid forties, I'm beginning to sag (OK, I've BEEN sagging) and I'm starting to look an awful lot like my mother (I love her, but you get my drift). I look in the mirror and screech EEEEK sometimes. My knees pop and I'm starting to slow down, damn it. In our culture's celebration and overemphasis on youth and beauty, we are all gonna be LOSERS. We're all gonna get old and saggy, and no amount of hair color or skin tightener or boob jobs is gonna fool anyone. We have to focus our self esteem, as a culture, and as individuals, on more enduring and "real" things than the superficiality of appearances. Including how hot of a guy you can snag, or how cool your car is, or how good you look in a mini. That is us feeding an unhealthy narcissism into ourselves. Also, our culture's version of "love" is deadly dangerous. We have most of our teenage girls reading those insipid vampire novels about girls who erase themselves for the love of some guy who's gonna suck out all their blood. Good GOD. And if you are anything like me, you are 35 years old and falling in love with a predator in sheep's clothing because I still BELIEVED in that insane version of "love". The downside of this culture of narcissisim is . . . none of us measure up. Not one single person believes they measure up. No one. So our self esteem plummets, in direct proportion to how far off the superficial beauty and desirability mark we fall. And if you are anything like I was, you are grateful that someone finds you desirable and beautiful . . . SO grateful, considering the cultural standards of beauty. I was SO grateful I thought I OWED my exNarc for accepting me as his girlfriend, then wife. It was like the old days where the father gave a dowry with his daughter in marraige. To sweeten the deal. I gave EVERYTHING I worked so hard for, not to mention my heart and soul, as a dowry because I was so grateful this man loved me. Can you say . . . no self esteem? I thought so little of myself. Like I was 'used' and on the mark down rack. THAT is (IMO) the crux of the whole problem. We see ourselves as 50% off and are just glad someone bought us. How to teach this self esteem to young girls and guys? To regard themselves as automatically having value and worth, just because they are alive and breathing? I don't have any clue on how to do that on a large scale. I think the schools would screw it up badly, some special interest group would find a way to make money or get political clout for it. We can reach out for each other, as we suffer along, and reach out for the young folks in our lives and be a good example for them. Be a safe person to talk to, and provide a counter to the soul killing narcissistic BS our culture churns out. One by one by one :)

This is very timely for me today. I feel ashamed to admit here that I allowed myself to get hoovered into seeing and communicating with the exN over the last few weeks - even when I knew it wasn't a good idea. I was extremely cautious during my dealings with him - for the first time ever, I protected my heart. But, true to form, he's pulled the same manipulative BS that he always did - gee, it only took three weeks to drop his facade. HOWEVER, this time I reacted completely differently than I ever did before with him. Before, I would have spent hours and even days analyzing and asking "am I overreacting? am I imagining? am I being fair?" WAKE UP!!!!! Nope, this time I trusted my instincts and applied all the information that I've been gathering here and other places about narcs. I called him out on his lies and his games without flinching - a huge victory for me. I've called my friends who have kept contact open with him on FB, and asked them to block him if they want to remain my friends - and they have. For the first time - I have set the standards for how I will be treated and they WILL BE ADHERED TO! I will not sell myself short one more day. So...in response to your posted comments, I think we eventually DO learn to see the signs and act accordingly. Knowledge is indeed power and where we all went wrong is just being naive and uninformed before. We didn't know. How could we have known without going through this hell? But now that we know, we move on. It feels damn good to have put ME FIRST.