Degrees of Narcness?

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Oct 5 - 8AM (Reply to #51)
Meadowbrook
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The "friends card" ick

I've dealt with that one. The N I knew seemed to love the idea of having former "lovers" as his adoring cult of fans because he can't handle the thought of anyone disliking him or thinking he's a loser. Personally, I'd rather die than be one of his cyber-harem sycophants.
Oct 5 - 10AM (Reply to #52)
loveofmylife
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Amen

same here. Probbaly a dozen ex lovers forming his adoring cult of fans. And think that is one thing that makes it absolutely impossible for them to commit to one person.
Oct 4 - 11PM (Reply to #42)
TraumaMama
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I concur!

Your post is brilliant, absolutely true, and describes what I experienced this last year. The increased abuse was ineffective and so my exBF (borderline narc) progressed to a calculated D&D with malicious intent. You describe this as #1 and #2. He also had new supply handy and slithered away to be with her AFTER trying to destroy me. I believe that he had intentionally planned his every move in order to annihilate me emotionally. The D&D happened on Valentine's Day on the curb at DFW airport for increased impact even. I believe that he enjoyed watching me writhe in pain. This was my punishment for investigating his story about how he got divorced (after many inconsistencies). It wasn't the credit cards after all. It was the married 25 year old he was sleeping with at work (11 years younger)! The wife kicked him out and he left his 3 kids to move out of state to be with the OW. I confronted him (oopsies) and that didn't go over very well as you might guess. During the D&D he raged, told me I have trust issues, can't have a normal relationship, and bragged that I would never trust again. I have never had another human being treat me so cruelly (except for exNH) I have known him since I was in 7th grade and we had been talking about getting married. I seriously thought I was going to have a breakdown over this ordeal. I am a highly educated career mom and I fell apart! My hair even fell out! I was shell-shocked for months. I obsessed over this 24/7. I kept going over and over what he said and did. Yes. It is all FAKE. All of it and it is about supply. He went on his "merry way" and I am finally less traumatized and can say "GOOD RIDDANCE!" I would rather "lick a toilet bowel" (not sure who said that) than talk to him and I mean it! Thanks again for your post!
Oct 5 - 8AM (Reply to #43)
Meadowbrook
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Hair falling out

Wow, what a terrible story. I'm so sorry that happened to you. He sounds particularly cruel and malicious. My hair is falling out now too! I don't have any gray hair yet but I'm betting when/if my hair grows back it will grow back gray!
Oct 5 - 8PM (Reply to #49)
TraumaMama
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Trauma and hairloss

My hair was falling out in clumps. I lost weight, too. I looked pretty raggedy for a while and that is NOT like me. I was traumatized and trance-like for weeks. My trauma therapist banned me from this site for a while due to being triggered. My PTSD is healing now but taking baby dose of antidepressant at night to sleep. Sadly, I took my kids to the animal shelter to see if we could adopt a new dog. There was a mama dog with puppies there that had been abused. The dog was shaking nonstop, had patches of missing fur, and was staring off vacantly in a trance. I almost cried. There was no difference between us, really.
Oct 5 - 8AM (Reply to #44)
NancyM
NancyM's picture

Gray hair

Hair falling out, it is a common theme in abusive relationships. I was born with a double crown so I had twice as much as the average person. I guess it brings me back to normal. Gray hair? Don't worry about it...I have two older sisters and I am grayer than both of them. Older and wiser I say...lol. Actually I am going with the wrinkles thing now. If anybody says anything, I retort with the fact that I earned them. Can they say the same?

Nevergoback

Oct 5 - 9AM (Reply to #45)
Meadowbrook
Meadowbrook's picture

stress reactions

Isn't is annoying how we end up with all the stress and physical manifestations of that stress while they go on their merry way? Argh. My hair is falling out and I've developed a type of rosacea that is not going away with treatment. I had a conversation with the N once when a lot of bad things were happening and he was acting like he was so stressed and bothered by it all. But then he said, "strangely enough, even with all this going on I sleep just fine at night!" I'll just bet he sleeps fine at night. I guess that's the benefit of not having feelings. You don't have to lie awake at night tossing and turning.
Oct 7 - 11AM (Reply to #46)
ShaynasMommy
ShaynasMommy's picture

re: stress reactions

I had one, too. It was like getting carpal tunnel syndrome, only in the left wrist and for 1-2 weeks. My Doc prescribed me a brace and that helped it go away. It never came back. I kind of figured it was a manifestation of all the stress I was going through, because it came on the week we broke up. Just thought it was a strange way to manifest. Because I had to see my doctor, it was like I was being told to take care of myself for a change.
Oct 7 - 12PM (Reply to #47)
chickon2
chickon2's picture

Stress reactions

My hair was falling out. After one month of dating him (and I still thought he was THE One at this time) My left hand started to tingle.. My middle finger of that same hand was numb..It stayed numb.. It went back to normal after the break up.. Weird..He paid for me to get accupuncture, he even took my hand one time and prayed over it.. THe only cure was him leaving after all... weird..
Oct 7 - 12PM (Reply to #48)
ShaynasMommy
ShaynasMommy's picture

yes, that is wierd

that precise symptom is what happens when one is pregnant ( I know, it happened to me and went away after I had the baby) so it is definitely a stress response your body is saying "Iv'e had enough!" I had never had carpel tunnel in all the years of office work, until the N screwed me over. Isn't that interesting?
Oct 4 - 11PM (Reply to #40)
loveofmylife
loveofmylife's picture

NancyM

Wow - great post...ok... Emotional Security: yes, you are right - he does not have this. He can play the part really well when he is in an environment where either: 1) he is THE boss and that is his defined role. or 2) it is one on one where he is helping me with something. RARELY will he show is vulnarabilities. However, he has told me that he cannot function in an environment where he is not THE boss (and he is right). I've been to many social events with him where he is like a lost little child. And it shocking to me to see that contrast. Because when he is THE boss (and it is unchallenged), he is a stellar, charismatic leader. But if the two of us go to a social event together and he does not know anyone there, he clings to me all night long and almost studders talking to people. He is very uncomfortable and unsure of himself. The "better" woman: I totally agree with you here. The "whores"(and I do apologize for that word here - just can't think of a better one right now)... simply won't do. And yes, he picks "better" women - women who actually have character and virtue that is true to their core. But he can't keep up with it, because much of his virtue and character are fake (as I have recently learned) And you are right, the way he tried to convince me that he WAS BETTER was to start putting me down. Nothing I did was right and I couldn't possibly run a company without him. But he did much of this in a way that really made me believe that he was HELPING me and had my best interest at heart, and that I had serious flaws that only he understood and could help me overcome. (and the things he pointed out were things I did need to improve, he does know my strengths and weaknesses inside and out....but he made me think that these weaknesses were going to result in the demise of my company - and therefore needed to be fixed IMMEDIATELY before the sky came falling down. And interesting that after he left, my company flourished!) Fear: Yep, narc pulled back from me last summer for awhile and did wait until I got over it and did punish me for me to learn my place. And then when I starting seeing through him a few months ago, pointed out his contradictions, questioned his motives, he sensed I was starting to see the fraud and abandoned me quickly and cruelly. And I think he decided that he could abandon me and not be left too short on supply...because the moment he abandoned me, I looked on match.com and sure enough he was there.... and had already been dating a handful of gorgeous, very intelligent, athletic, and fun looking women in the previous month. So he is going to find one on his level from this batch of women!
Oct 5 - 9AM (Reply to #41)
NancyM
NancyM's picture

Loveofmylife

Every time I read these boards (and you are not the only one) I really would like to see that you are moving on. It annoys me that such strong beautiful women continually let themselves be reduced to this treatment. (OK OK I did it too, but I never had this support) Think you are totally gorgeous, and I think this maybe your greatest hurdle. WELL welcome to the sisterhood of BITCHOOD. OK..so it does not go our way...well guess what, in the world of bitchood we have ONE response. WHATEVER. Try it, and release the bitch within.

Nevergoback

Oct 4 - 8PM (Reply to #39)
MsVulcan500
MsVulcan500's picture

Nancy,

This is a wonderful post and absolutely right on!! I love this!
Oct 4 - 8PM (Reply to #37)
terri
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NancyM

I think you've hit the nail on the head with your description. It completely sums up my N relationship. If I get nothing else from this Board, the validation I have gotten is what is getting me through this. "Oftentimes a Narc just believes that if he has her sufficiently hooked, he can just withdraw for a while until she 1. Just gets over it and will be grateful to have him back. 2. Is sufficiently punished and has learned her place." This describes what I've been going through for the last 8 months. I'm aware of it but reading it from someone else who knows is very comforting.

Believe in yourself!
Terri

Oct 4 - 8PM (Reply to #38)
NancyM
NancyM's picture

terri

Glad to be of help. I think it is so hard for us to get our heads around their behavior because we are operating from an emotional level, where for a Narc it is much much simpler because they are not. It is just on/off, black/white. It is this thinking that makes them so bizarre to us. Validation of your experience is so so so important. When I first started reading and listening to other women, I was shouting at the computer "I said that" "he said that' etc. I could not believe this stuff can be word for word, action for action. You will get through...keep on.

Nevergoback

Oct 4 - 5PM (Reply to #33)
helldweller
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better off and loveofmylife

I don't know. Better off, believe me i know that they are all totally messed up. Now, that said, I think what we're looking for here is a connect from the narc to us: the process they go through to get from point A (In love, so to speak, with us) and point B (totally gone south on the whole idea). We are, I think looking to understand the mechanism. In science, if there is no known mechanism there is no science. It's called pseudoscience until we know the details of how it works, and I think we are just trying to udnerstand that. These are not stupid people. The only thing my therapist has said about the narc is that he is one of the smartest people she's ever heard of. The thing is, even though they are completely insane, they have to justify what they do because they can tell others we're nuts, but I think they are too smart to accept that themselves. I think loveofmylife is right on when she talks aobut the self fulfilling prophecy. They fall in love (and I do think it happens), they freak out because they don't really know how to follow through with love and they are smart enought to know they are going to eventually scrw it up anyway because that's their nature, so they do stuff to screw it up (either consciously or subconsciously or both), and bam! prophecy fulfilled.
Oct 4 - 5PM (Reply to #34)
kiwi10
kiwi10's picture

it seems like a 'low level

it seems like a 'low level narc' could fall in love then sabatoge it. i don't suppose a psychopath or high level one is capable. i mean, like a person who has a lot of narc traits but nt the disorder, and is too selfish to really 'get' other people... i'm sure they can, in a limited compacity love... but your guy... like my guy... i don;t know dude... i don't think they can love. they can't even attatch. but... i'm n expert. its what my psychlogist tells me, though. and i think she is :( doesn't that comfort you though?? it makes me feel better, not worse. it's not your fault, you know? like, we fell in love with a 5 year old. no wonder they like to spend time with kids.
Oct 4 - 8PM (Reply to #35)
better off
better off's picture

Exactly right, they cannot

Exactly right, they cannot attach. So they cannot love. They don't even conceive of us as people with our own rights or feelings. We are OBJECTS to them. They can only "love" us they way they can "love" a plasma TV.
Oct 4 - 4PM (Reply to #27)
better off
better off's picture

Wishful Thinking

You're both dreaming. You are believing this version of events because it's too painful for you to accept the reality that they do not care about you any more than they care about anyone else, which is ZERO. If they could get something out of pushing you in front of a bus and never get in trouble for it, they would do it. They are not afraid of you abandoning them. They have been USING you since they said hello. You are "not right" for them, and THANK GOD for that. Do you realize what you're saying? That somehow you are "right" for each other, but they sabotage it? You are right for someone who is a pathological LIAR? This is who is right for you? And helldweller, yours is most likely a child molester. A CHILD MOLESTER. You are right for a child molester? And loml, he does NOT have a trust issue with you!! That is SHIT he MADE UP. And you're still gnawing on it like it means something. He is a cold, calculating, lying manipulator. He NEVER trusted you, he NEVER loved you, he NEVER was your friend. He was pretending pretending pretending pretending pretending. PRETENDING.
Oct 5 - 12AM (Reply to #32)
loveofmylife
loveofmylife's picture

Fear of abandonment

Let me clarify one thing...when I say he had fear of me abandoning him....I think his fear of abandonment had EVERYTHING to do with how this would mess up his "great guy" image and had NOTHING to do with his fear of missing me and the relationship. just wanted to make that clarification that I'm not totally delusional! It did become clear to me that the only thing he feared in losing me was the fear of what others might think. Or the fear of him losing that association with me that has gotten him lots of attention and work! It, sadly, had nothing to do with fear of losing me, as a human being -
Oct 4 - 5PM (Reply to #28)
helldweller
helldweller's picture

betteroff

Let me just restate, reiterate, just to be clear: you are absolutely right, they are freaks of nature, and yes, mine is black belt in freakish nutcases, and no, it would never ever work out with me or anyone else. This is a subtler point I'm trying to make: that they KNOW they are nuts and at some level try to screw it up on purpose before they screw it up because they can't help it.
Oct 4 - 7PM (Reply to #29)
gettinbetter
gettinbetter's picture

Helldweller

Yes Helldweller I did read in Sam Vaknin's stuff that they fear abondment so they faciltate so that way they are the one leaving and they never get left.
Oct 5 - 2PM (Reply to #30)
hooklineandsinker
hooklineandsinker's picture

It has only just occurred to

It has only just occurred to me that the week before I was offloaded, he had become distant and businesslike. I found this so painful that I switched off my phone for three days. When I turned it back on, there were lots of panicky messages from him wondering where I was and if I was ok. Plus one FB email. At the time I took this to be genuine concern about my welfare etc but now I think that he was panicking in case my silence meant that I had abandoned him before he got a chance to abandon me. And sure enough, once I re-established contact, I got dumped two days later.
Oct 5 - 2PM (Reply to #31)
jen79
jen79's picture

HLS

I think this happened to me too. I was so long in NC and I ignored all mails and texts...and he bombarded me with texts...and when I gave in, he somehow created a superficial drama so he could dump me so he had the last word.
Oct 4 - 1PM (Reply to #24)
helldweller
helldweller's picture

the self fulfilling prophecy

Love of my life, do you think it's a self fulfilling propehcy because they sabotage it or because that's how they write the script in the first place? This is very, very interesting to me, because "self fulfilling prophecy" is a phrase that often, often came to mind for me regarding the narc.
Oct 3 - 9AM (Reply to #20)
Used
Used's picture

helldweller

i agree with what you have said for 2 reasons.... i said to narc stop beign such a coward...take a chance...meet someone nice and play the game propley....treat her good respect her he said if i couldnt even keep this freindship with you how could i be married.. and if i cant live with myself how can i live with someone else... the second thing is during an arguement with him... he was shouting i let you get in... i let you get in and now look whats happened... he had began seeking me out[stalking] he said i didnt even do that with my ex,s ... if they wanted to go off i let them...with you i cant do it... my biggest mistake was letting you in..
Oct 3 - 9AM (Reply to #21)
helldweller
helldweller's picture

used

I asked him that, too: Can't you just try to do it right? Just try? Yes, yes, yes, I'll try, he would say. But he wouldn't. He couldn't.
Oct 3 - 9AM (Reply to #22)
Used
Used's picture

helldweller

he couldnt, he wouldnt even know how to go about it....that his his mindset now....ingrained forever nowx
Oct 3 - 8AM
Lisa E. Scott
Lisa E. Scott's picture

Yes

Yes, they do have fleeting moments of feeling, but they are brief and very rare. They usually occur after a narcissistic injury (i.e. being rejected or left)because these types of injuries cause them to question their superiority. They are usually brief and very rare because they do not like the way it makes them feel. Feeling a range of emotions they normally do not terrifies them and they will shut down as quickly as possible. My EXNH experienced these moments on occassion. One time, he told me he felt like a fraud. He couldn't explain it and it was before I realized what narcissism was and that he suffered from it, but I remember the conversation distinctly. He was very upset and said he felt as though he was living his life as a fraud. It wasn't about our relationship. It was about his day to day work and the people he worked with, but I know now that he felt the same way about me, but just couldn't voice that for obvious reasons.
Oct 3 - 8AM (Reply to #12)
gettinbetter
gettinbetter's picture

Hi Lisa

Thanks for your response. The interesting thing is that I new the Narc in his early twenties I think right when the Narcissism was beginning to take hold of him. I can tell now some 20 years laters that it has gotten much worse. I think in some way I remind of him a time when he was better and not so disturbed. I think sometimes he thinks he feels like entertaining a fantasy that he could have a normal life with me. I think I have become a symbol of normalcy. Sometimes I really feel him reaching out for me and I know this sounds ridiculous but its almost on a paranormal level. Have you ever heard of this?