Feeling sick today

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#1 Jan 18 - 7PM

curlygirl

Feeling sick today

Hi folks,

I had to do a search in my email inbox for work and the search pulled up an old email exchange between N and I from a year ago. It was something I had totally forgotten. He lost his cell and had made an aside that it was a good thing because he'd been hearing from people he didn't want to hear from. I asked for clarification (had just found out from a friend that a woman he briefly dated had been saying some "outrageous" things about him) and I got the most solicitous email back about how some women he'd dated after he broke up with his wife couldn't take a hint, yada, yada, yada ... How I was completely different, how much he respected me .. how the woman who'd been saying things about him was "troubled."

I remember that day. I remember feeling so, so off about it. That was eight weeks in - I had no idea that my internal radar had been flashing that early on - but there was always an explanation. And I look back on that time and realize that there was always something - every single week. Some crisis, some friction with his soon to be ex wife, some kind of chaos. Why in Sam Hell did I hang on in there? And how easy it is to focus on the rejection I felt when he finally left me for another woman - without remembering that even when he was "mine" - even in the early days - there was not a lot of security, or peace. Maybe the adrenaline kept me hooked?

I am really, truly, finally glad to be out of it and glad that he hasn't come back to try to hoover me. But also sure that he's describing me somewhere, to someone as "very troubled" and that is awful. I wish I could scrub myself clean of the whole experience and have had it never happen.

Curly.

#2 Jan 19 - 4PM

curlygirl

So many lightbulbs in these posts

I don't even know where to begin ... So many different men here and every response I've read is just so familiar. I didn't keep a journal but I have a great calendar on my PC and when the final D&D happened I went through week by week and charted the chaos. It was, literally, weekly. And there was this kind of frenzied sense of urgency about things - that I assumed would settle down. He and his ex wife were at loggerheads so there was the countdown to her leaving. Then as soon as she did there were work crises, school crises (he was also studying), friction with his new roommate, a house move - I kept thinking - as did you, Agnes, that finally when the decks were cleared, we'd be able to just read the paper in bed on a Sunday. I shake my head at that now. I remember calling a girlfriend when it was clear that things weren't looking good and she said "this is it now, this right now should be the "normal" time that you've been hanging in there for. this is what it looks like." If there wasn't a crisis, he would manufacture one. The other comment that really hits home is about people and processes and systems. YES! He is a really intelligent guy and made a comment that I just didn't understand about not "getting" work and being a square peg in a round hole. I couldn't figure out what he meant - how could someone that smart not understand his work?? But "normal" people intuitively can see what's expected of them in an office. We may not always like it but we see how we fit into the bigger picture, or the bigger system, and how what we're doing fits in with the business of the business. I don't think that anyone who a) doesn't have any empathy and b) really can't or won't see outside their own worldview can thrive in a system where they're not at the top of the chain. One of the reasons I went no contact so quickly was that I remember how bonded I felt to him when the mean witch ex wife was being so unreasonable and hysterical. Looking back, all things considered she was reacting normally to what must have been years of abuse. I'm actually kind of proud of her now for giving it to him with both barrels at the end of that marriage. But they are so adept at the triangles. Finally, the first major red flag for me was -before- our first date. He cancelled our scheduled date after being so excited about it the day before. Was strange and brief on the phone and it just didn't add up. A girlfriend gave me a long lecture about how I was being paranoid etc. etc. I wasn't. But you know, it was actually good, loving, supportive women in my life who talked me down from major red flags in those early months. "Everyone has baggage. You haven't been married - the ending of a marriage is rough. Everyone deserves a second chance." They meant well but I really wish that someone had just screamed "run" because that's what a small part of me was saying and I have to learn to trust that feeling. I don't give a hoot if it means being alone forever. Curly x

#3 Jan 19 - 5PM (Reply to #21)

fairy wings

Early signs

I had a similar experience before the first real date. He had arranged to see me on his day off work mid week and yet when the day arrived he phoned and said he had to go and get a new tyre for his motorbike; he's phone me when he got back, but didn't specify how long he would be. I remember wanting to ask how long it would take, could he give me an approximate time, but at the same time I didn't want to sound too eager, so I said, ok. He got back in touch about 15:00 after I'd waited in all day and said maybe best to leave it for another day as he had to walk his dogs in an hour. Apparently there had been a problem fitting the tyre. Iwanted to say I've waited in all day, but at the same time I didn't want to amke a fuss so I was cool about it and we agreed a time for the weekend. At the weekend he turned up as planned and I put it behind me, however now when looked at in the pattern of abuse that followed I believe that was him testing what crap I'd put up with. He had a mobile he could have sent a text to say having problems lets leave it to the weekend. I can also see now that he was always very clever because actually what he said was feasible. he did phone me back and he did re arrange another date and he turned up as planned. That was always what he did, he managed to make it look like he was a perfectly regular bloke, but it was all so subtle and by the time we split I had put up with this type of thing daily. I never knew where i was with him, but that my dear friends was the whole point of his game! I know if I had run this past my friends they would have said I was being harsh, even now when I warn others away from men I think potentially could be abusive my friends will say I'm being paranoid because of my experience.

#4 Jan 20 - 3PM (Reply to #22)

fairy wings

Sorry people

Sorry about the three entries, not sure what happened there!

#5 Jan 19 - 5PM (Reply to #20)

fairy wings

Early warning signs

#6 Jan 19 - 5PM (Reply to #19)

fairy wings

Early warning signs

#7 Jan 19 - 4PM (Reply to #17)

Carolyn

You mentioned something

You mentioned something about being good at triangles I remember reading somewhere that the triangle in realtionships is a model for abuse.

#8 Jan 19 - 4PM (Reply to #18)

fairy wings

Triangles

A model of abuse it is. A lot of the women here have written about addictions of their ex's. The other part of the triangle does not have to be another person, it is often a substance which in itself can lead to deception and a secret life, plus no accountability within the relationship. My ex smoked weed daily. Once when I was trying to pin down what it was I felt around him that I couldn't quite put my finger on I drew a mind map and what I got was a picture of loads of activity round the outside with nothing in the centre where our relationship was meant to be. I always said he put weed before me, however towards the end he put weed, his daughters, his mates, everyone before me, however he kept everything in its own compartment. He only saw one mate at a time or one daughter at a time. He had about ten different dealers he bought weed from so he always had a supply, so really the third side of the traingle was his secret life.

#9 Jan 19 - 3PM

agnesmurphy17

Similar Experience, Too

I, too, started with a man who was breaking up with another woman. She had just moved out of his apartment. [Later, after I left N, I learned they were just taking a break, hence, he was 'storing' her stuff. When she found about about me she was over in a flash to get her stuff, but, by then it was too late, I was married.] Also, had an e-mail crisis with his daughter who wanted "no contact." [But she was in another country & he had recently left the mother for the woman who had just moved out (aka taking a break). Mother had alienated the child's affections.] How's them for Red Flags! Do I feel stupid? Yep! I, too, was vulnerable. Needy & lonely. My N had explanations for everything. It all made sense. And he was perfect on paper. My age, divorced, well-educated, well-employed, a perfect gentleman. And we had fun together. It felt comfortable. Not some blind passion. A relationship based on mutual respect & shared values (or so I thought). Met his parents--got along with them famously. But, I remember everything was always a frenzy & a crisis. Traveling, work, conference, always something. Within 6 months, I was married & had purchased a house with him. I thought it would all get calm then. All decks cleared. A quiet life at home. We both longed for that. Wasn't even living with him two months in the house when the devaluing began. Threats of divorce within six months of the marriage. Every 7-10 days a crisis (usually my omission or commission). Followed by 2-3 days of his giving me the silent treatment. Generally, every weekend was an argument & then the silent treatment. 33% of the days each month he was not talking to me. These guys thrive on crisis. I think that I got sucked in because I liked being needed. Being able to help & understand. And, it was so refreshing to be with a man who wanted to be in a relationship. Not a man who tells you within 5 minutes of meeting him that he's not really looking for a relationship (unsaid, just sex without attachments). Interesting. The NW who is living with him now. She met him just as his wife moved out and abandoned him. Mine was DEVASTATED that his wife had left him. His wife suffered from depression you know? I am sure the NW just held his hand through his crisis & *poof* they fell in love. My N & I will be divorced soon. I guess she heaves a sigh of relief. Things will settle down soon. A normal life on an even keel after so much drama!

#10 Jan 19 - 1PM

whatever2009

Similar Experience... I was

Similar Experience... I was cleaning out my email as well, and came across emails between myself and my good friends. It was always the same girls and there was emails from as early as 2008...I was ALWAYS complaining, crying, upset...couldn't eat. couldn't sleep and all of them told me to get out. It seemed the pattern was every 2 to 3 months that the exN and I fell apart ... or should I say, I fell apart. Im out now, with no contact (well with him)...I still hear a thing or 2 about him and Ive started cracking down on those people as well. I also find reading these emails difficult. I feel embarrassed, and as tho I let myself down. But on the brightside they are enough to remind me that I COULDN'T do it anymore. And actually see the pattern. I do know that when I left the other 3 or 4 times before this, I always felt horrible, but this time I actually, eat, exercise etcetc..... I have my horrible moments, but not as many as before. This time im ready. Does anyone find it extremely difficult to read there journal? I journaled for the last year...not so much my feelings, but everytime he put me through hell. And I cant read it right now. It breaks me to read it.... Anyone else have that?

#11 Jan 19 - 4PM (Reply to #12)

Barbara (not verified)

whatever2009

you're NOT NO CONTACT WITH HIM because your friend is his ROOMMATE and you're still in CONTACT WITH HER. You're stuck at Day One. have you discussed this with your therapist??????? ~~~~~~~~~ The truth will set you free... but first it will piss you off - Gloria Steinem Visit My Abuse Website

#12 Jan 20 - 9AM (Reply to #13)

whatever2009

Barbara...

I did discuss this with my therapist and my friend. She agreed to NEVER bring him up. If she needs to vent she will with her mom, and not me. She will not call my house from there home phone and will not share stories. I believe her, she really wants to make our friendship last. There is a circle of 6 of us girls that are always together and she is in that circle. It would be close to impossible to give her up. My therapist said that I should set boundaries with her as I stated above. If she crosses the boundaries and cant not talk about him, then I need to get rid of her. If she can do this and separate that part of her life, it will not be harmful. My therapist compared it to women who have to deal with there exN's in respect to children, they set boundaries with them. In this case I will set boundaries with my friend and stay NO CONTACT with him. Im really not kidding when I say as of right now, I feel better. I just need to boost my self esteem again!!!!

#13 Jan 20 - 1PM (Reply to #14)

Barbara (not verified)

whatever

fair enough... and when she slips make SURE you call her on it. ~~~~~~~~~ The truth will set you free... but first it will piss you off - Gloria Steinem Visit My Abuse Website

#14 Jan 19 - 1PM

Carolyn

They are very concerned

They are very concerned about their reputations even though they don't have a good reputation. they don't connect with people, systems and processes because they have bad judgement. He tells people that you are 'troubled' and inside people, who know him, are thinking that you were smart to get away. It is, in psych babble, called projection. They are troubled and you are fine so they put it in reverse. he will go on like this for years and then self-destruct and NEVER know why? It was sabotage, bad luck, fate but never do they connect their bad end with their actions. They are always victims never abusers. I am in the midst of a legal hastle over a business and I was sure my partner was a narcissist but he was a talented bi-lingual, well trained contractor and I thought the money motivation would keep the nutty stuff down. I am no kid, I know better, and I did it anyway. Now I have a lawyer and a big legal mess on my hands. He is telling people he ended the partnership because I am crazy! He managed to insult, alienate, and offend all of our rich female clients. He could work for men without problems. Women are their targets. It shows the bad judgement side of their wwarped personalities because women hire most workers, like painters, in the country I am in. It shows a compulsion to abuse without regard to consequences that affect him, and a lack of perception about the systems and processes in his business. No referrals no work! The narcissists are all the same.

#15 Jan 18 - 8PM

quietude (not verified)

curlygirl

It sounds like you have a good understanding of what was going on ~ I know it still hurts, but be proud of the strides you've made just by some of the discoveries you've described. My trigger right now is that it's nearly a year to the day that my that my exN came to the US to be with me "forever", after a long period of separation (this was after two other D&D's & me taking him back events over the course of 3 yrs). We had 'worked out all our issues', we made plans, we were going to be married. In the following weeks of his arrival, it was a slow, steady, grueling process of his discarding me again. I honestly thought I was losing my mind, and later discovering that everything he told me and planned turned out to be total MYTH. So, he left again, tried to lure me for about 6 months, but I cut him off completely. I'm sure he's back with an old supply, the one who was 'off balance', and for whatever reason was still trying to contact him, and me...I remember asking him, why is she so upset?? I thought the break-up was MUTUAL?? He said it WAS. Oh my, what a huge lie. I wish she was more aggressive in her pursuit, but she kind of just faded away. I think because he started working on her again. He couldn't be alone, so he went back to that old supply who I'm sure he's lied to about ME. I'm sure I'm the "crazy one" now. The only difference is I'm not pursuing him, so his lie probably evolved around how I dumped him, he was all alone in this country so had to return...LOL. Anyhow, YES, I know that 'sick' feeling of bad memories, bitterness, feeling like you even wasted a minute with this person. But like you, I am soooo glad he's gone. He saved me from committing to him and things getting much, much worse, I'm sure. I wished for him to leave several times, but didn't have the guts to do anything about it. Plus, at the time, because of the number they do on us, I couldn't imagine being without him. Now, I couldn't imagine being WITH him, ever...and he can't get far enough away from me, or anyone else like him for that matter.

#16 Jan 19 - 3AM (Reply to #9)

curlygirl

Quietude

I'm so glad for you that he's gone but sorry that this is a trigger time of year. I don't know how you managed with the three years of back and forth and after all that - to have the same thing happen again would be just too much. Hope it passes. Curly.

#17 Jan 18 - 8PM (Reply to #8)

curlygirl

Thanks Quietude

It helps to hear that I'm not alone. I'm starting to get a bead on the fact that very possibly lied to me about, uh, everything. The divorce was apparently his idea - not so sure about that now. What I -still- can't understand is why his ex wife wanted to be in touch with him at all, especially after some of the crap that he pulled in their final months. Maybe she's still hooked. Who knows. The one thing I'm glad of is that I started NC so early on. At least I can't be described as one of those women who couldn't take the hint. Got it, loud and clear - maybe later than I should have but I did get it. He has left me alone so far and long may it continue. I couldn't go back to "crisis of the day" living.

#18 Jan 18 - 7PM

curlygirl

P.S.

Although really - he would be right. By the end I really was troubled. He was trouble. Anyone who's involved with him is going to end up troubled. Would love to hear from anyone who's out the other side of this - need some light at the end of the tunnel inspiration today x

#19 Jan 19 - 1PM (Reply to #6)

fairy wings

I'm on the other side

Hi, I'm on the other side and would send you a longer message but am just off to my neighbour for a cup of tea, however I just wanted to say you got out really fast so well done to you. You know your radar works so ask yourself what would help you to listen to it and do as it says next time i.e. get out fast, this feeling spells danger. You asked why his ex would have wanted to be in touch with him. There could be many reasons, however she may be have been very angry and still attached to the idea that she could get some sort of resolution or justice, and she may not have found this message board and therefore still be in the dark as to what was really happening/had been happening. I have recently had a similar experience when after five years I decided to read the journal I was writing when I first met him. I was amazed at how crystal clear it was from a distance to see what he had been doing (no doubt why my friends warned me off him.) I had numerous entries in the first few weeks where I'd written I wasn't happy with what he had done or not done, however at the time in a new relationship it isn't so easy to know what is real and what is a lie is it? So like you I denied my gut feeling and allowed stuff to go. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, however I have now been on my own five years and I love it. Maybe more when I return from my neighbour! Stay strong, stay positive.

#20 Jan 19 - 8AM (Reply to #5)

agnesmurphy17

Being Troubled

Yes. At the end, they are right when they tell everybody that we are crazy. Mine told people I suffered from depression and anxiety and that I had been addicted to sedatives. Yep. I took sedatives for 18 months of our 30 month marriage. Had I not, I would have been out of there sooner. I was a mess at the end. I suffered panic & anxiety attacks every single day. My hands shook almost constantly, slight tremors at rest & shaking whenever stressed (even at work with clients). I cried almost every day. I cried at work, on the bus, walking down the street. I was SO DEPRESSED. I felt so crazy. I was so frightened to go home from work, never knowing what might happen. I would say & do & submit to almost everything he wanted so as to "keep the peace," that is, for no further escalation of my already unbearable stress level. After I left him, the feelings of craziness left after a few days. The hand tremors receded after 1 week and stopped completely after one month. Same for the daily panic & anxiety attacks, about one month. Isn't that the meaning of a pathological? They observe the victim very carefully. Then use the victim's words, experiences and emotions to destroy the victim.

#21 Jan 18 - 11PM (Reply to #2)

helpmefromn (not verified)

curly

It is true that they transfer their dark energy onto you. Isaac Newton said that energy is never wasted, it is just transferred. They have nothing - they are empty shells - and you are full of life and love. Think of how you were when you first met him -- probably a little insecure yourself and trusting, but probably with more life and vigor than after you finished with him. He not only sucked you dry of whatever you had left, but also dumped all his garbage on you-- you were a receptacle for his dark energy, and they make everyone troubled, so yes, you are right. It is them who are troubled and they would only choose someone who was a little insecure like you were (not seeing red flags in beginning, etc) They NEED to feel superior and like the rejector - on some unconscious level they choose people who are a little weak and then make them very weak by pouring all their garbage on them

#22 Jan 18 - 11PM (Reply to #3)

helpmefromn (not verified)

I am sure my ex is doing the

I am sure my ex is doing the same about me, and truth be told, he did make me nuts and troubled! But it is so annoying that he comes out looking clean. F 'em. I know who I am and I am a little embarrassed, yes, but now getting wiser and stronger and building anew with new people, but most importantly myself.

#23 Jan 19 - 12AM (Reply to #4)

curlygirl

Interestingly ...

In the beginning I was pretty good with boundaries. That said, I had a major bereavement a few months before we met and was grieving big time. Vulnerable with a capital V. I had the courage to look back at all the emails today after I found that first one. Oooooh boy. Lots of compliments from him - but also - SO many tasks!!! Can you help me look this up, can you proofread this, could you pick this up on the way over to dinner, can you check this out. Literally ... all about him! It was when I started putting my foot down that the N characteristics really popped up. Actually, that's b/s - the compliments (which now make me want to gag) and the errands were every bit as Narcky as the witholding and raging. Whoever he's seeing now must be freaking exhausted - and that's when the real tough stuff starts. When you're too tired, and confused to say no. Or you just want to keep the peace. Or you've invested so much and let so many things slide that you try to convince yourself it's because the relationship -must- be good. Thank you God that he is out of my life. Curly.

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