no conscience

53 posts / 0 new
Last post
Oct 16 - 10AM (Reply to #23)
Syren66 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

I don't buy the concept that

I don't buy the concept that anyone in a narc's life is an object, fwiw. These are lost souls, constantly seeking acceptance and at the same time, living in mortal fear of rejection. The degree of their antics is directly proportional to the degree of narcissism they possess. My two cents only.
Oct 16 - 10AM (Reply to #24)
peanutbutterfrogs
peanutbutterfrogs's picture

Sigh, .....

Nothing makes sense to me anymore. I don't want him to hurt, but know I am powerless to prevent it. I wish there were some hope for him and others like him.
Oct 16 - 10AM (Reply to #25)
Syren66 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

I think there is...but the

I think there is...but the trigger for that lies within those individuals...nobody from the outside can drag it out of them. And the more supply they have, the less likely it is they will look in a mirror and get real with themselves. Not as long as what they are doing works for them. It's truly sad...b/c I will say my xN is impressive on a lot of levels. Such a waste of a potentially incredible human being.
Oct 16 - 9AM
peanutbutterfrogs
peanutbutterfrogs's picture

Too paranoid to click on the link...

Wasn't always like this, used to be more trusting and open, but he managed to follow my internet activities (him or someone in his fold). Anyway, that is what I wonder about. We are all judged by our own merits. If a person has no guiding point to begin with then how are they judged harshly? It has always been my belief that no one, when it comes to matters of the mind, is beyond help. (except for maybe those who sexually assault children, then I think they have done something to their own psyche that can't be undone) But narcissists, have "acquired" their narcissism through no fault of their own. Religious or not, it seems to go against the entire makeup of what it is to be human.
Oct 16 - 1PM (Reply to #17)
emtg
emtg's picture

Both human and abusive

There is a great book that may help with some of what you are feeling. It is called Fatal Flaws. It writes about personality disorders and the causes and says the following which I found very helpful: You can have compassion for someone else who is disordered or for the disease AND you dont have to let them use you in their disorder. You don't have to hate if you want to understand the humanity in it. HOWEVER, UNDERSTANDING AND HAVING COMPASSION DOES NOT MEAN YOU SUBJECT YOURSELF TO ABUSE. I have worked with criminals, abused kids, sexual predators. They all have their story that will make you shudder. But does this mean I put my child in their hands? No. So ask yourself this - not whether he can change if he really wanted to or whether he had it rough as a kid -- But, do you want to spend your entire life waiting for an abusive mean and callous person to make some progress???? NO NO NO NO.
Oct 17 - 8AM (Reply to #19)
peanutbutterfrogs
peanutbutterfrogs's picture

Both human and abusive

I will check out the book, it sounds helpful. Also, it is odd, on a cognitive level, I know I have to stay away, it's my heart that needs convincing. I had a friend years back who went to AA, and one of the slogans was "I before E" (I think) and that meant to put intellect before emotion. Seems to be the road to recovery here as well.
Oct 16 - 3PM (Reply to #18)
alittledark
alittledark's picture

Subjecting to the abuse is what I am fighting with all my might,

but not well enough. I still hold on to any reason I can. I will look for the book: Fatal Flaws. I am so flip-floppish (wonder if that's a real word?) I can love very deeply, and hate very deeply, but I always feel bad for hating. I want to hate him, because I know that will help me confront him, but I talk myself out of it. I spend most of one day last week alone and became furious at a thought about him and how he treats me and how I allow it. I am much stronger than this. I released so much frustration by throwing lots of stuff, but that can be very damaging and plus I had to explain a few broken items to my husband. BTW, sometimes I think we are kinda kindred in some respects because I tend to be immature emotionally on some levels and that scares me often. I guess I may be an introverted Narcissist, but that is still no excuse to let someone who is an extroverted N. abuse me. I am a victim and coming to grips with that is hard. I quit seeing my therapist because she didn't know that much about NPD, and my husband just started a new job so his insurance hasn't kicked in yet...but it will also be hard to explain therapy to him. I am not willing to risk losing my husband over this ordeal with the narc, but I will come up with something...it's either see a therapist or live in pain the rest of my life. Thanks emtg for your comments. Means a lot :)

I do not want the peace which passeth understanding, I want the understanding which bringeth peace.
--Helen Keller

Oct 16 - 10AM (Reply to #9)
Syren66 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

But if you chalk his behavior

But if you chalk his behavior up to being human, you give him an excuse to continue with that behavior...he has to be made to see that what he is doing is not acceptable and that guess what? The world doesn't give a flying fuck about his rough childhood...we all have issues from childhood...the difference between them and us is that most of us don't choose to go through life making everyone else pay the price for it. Most of us grow the hell up and become responsible for our actions/words. You have the capacity to feel empathy for him (which is what attracted him to you in the first place)...he chooses to exhibit no remorse for his actions - these are choices he has made, Frogs...he has to be the one to be accountable for them. You are out of that relationship and with that comes the freedom from accepting responsibility for his happiness/misery, etc. He's not worried about how he made you feel; trust me. I think a bunch of us here just simply need to get laid!
Oct 16 - 11AM (Reply to #10)
peanutbutterfrogs
peanutbutterfrogs's picture

He had me convinced that

I was the one who didn't want love. That due to abuses in my own childhood I didn't want him to love me. When I told him whatever I went through as a child really had little effect on me today, he kept insisting that it did. Seriously, it is almost like he used the information to get inside my head. The weird thing was, I didn't buy it. I know what I have been through, and my take on it is "why the heck would you want to hurt another person the way you were hurt?" I learned compassion from my childhood traumas. Not anger (though I'm not saying I didn't ever feel angry about it) I guess it depends on which wolf you feed. You have been helpful, so helpful. I have typed most of this crying my eyes out, but I have some sense of not being alone in the world now, and I really needed that. Even though it is sad to think others are suffering.
Oct 16 - 7PM (Reply to #16)
outOFtheFOG13
outOFtheFOG13's picture

i am sorry you are feeling

i am sorry you are feeling sad. i know the ups and downs and it sucks! My ex did the same thing to me, insisting it was me who did not want to be loved. In his mind and words all he did was “give, give, give” and I rejected him at every turn. He projected his shortcomings onto me constantly. He passed off good traits and deeds of others as his own. In the beginning, I didn’t see what was happening. Once I realized WHAT was happening, I tried to determine HOW to fix the situation. I mistakenly thought logic, reason and communication would be enough. I did not know at the time that you cannot reason with them. I used what was left of my energy trying to prove myself to him, reasoning with him, attempting to make him understand how hurtful he was being to me. I thought if I could just make him see how much he hurt me, he would never want to act that way again. What a joke! I just gave him more ammunition for the next round. My mistake was defending myself against his attacks. I am an open person by nature and I felt I was safe with him to share my thoughts, feelings and insecurities. He used everything I shared to cause me pain and humiliation. His verbal attacks were so vicious that I could not comprehend someone could do that to another person. But it is as you said, they use anything they can to get inside your head. I know now nothing would ever have changed the person he is. I don’t care whether he chooses to be that way, or if it is a personality disorder or a mental illness or a character defect or if he is that way because his mom didn’t hug him enough as a child. I can appreciate attaching a condition or diagnosis to the person and educating ourselves on NPD. But I think, for me anyway, the only use for that information is to help myself recover. I think if we look too hard to the scientific element, we may let in false hope that he/she can change. They can’t change because they don’t acknowledge their behavior. I can’t allow myself to go to the place in my mind where I feel sorry for my ex because these types are not sorry for what they have done to us.
Oct 16 - 11AM (Reply to #11)
Syren66 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

I'm sorry you're crying

I'm sorry you're crying today, Frogs. You feel deeply for other people and though that is so admirable, you cannot allow your compassion for others to come at a price to your own emotional well-being. Maybe part of your own growth through this experience can be gained by learning to draw the line in the sand and maintain it...otherwise, you can easily go from being compassionate to a full-blown co-dependent. And co-dependents are the narcs favorite supply. They take, you give. Never ends. You end one relationship with a narc only to dive head first into another narc's life. It will eventually destroy you. The point of getting away from these people is to protect ourselves from them. To fully protect yourself, you have to figure out what it is about you that draws you to them and vice versa, so that the pattern is broken permanently. I am saying this with love...FUCK HIM AND HIS FEELINGS. Frog is what matters from this point forward in that dynamic. :D
Oct 16 - 11AM (Reply to #12)
peanutbutterfrogs
peanutbutterfrogs's picture

Did I mention?

Yes, I know I can't turn back, the pain far outweighed the pleasure long ago. And I do keep remembering that pain in moments when I feel weak. And the "did I mention part" is about the entire relationship was all through cyber space. So I feel a little weird about being so hurt, when some of these women were hurt face to face. But I can tell you the pain is just as real, just as there. LOL, and so are his OW's, tons of them, so maybe he'll move on and won't look back. I am kind of hoping that's what happens, yet it means someone else will be his victim.
Oct 16 - 11AM (Reply to #13)
Syren66 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

And you're going to be way

And you're going to be way too busy working on Frog to care who he's interacting with in the virtual or real world....right, Frogs? ;-)
Oct 16 - 12PM (Reply to #14)
peanutbutterfrogs
peanutbutterfrogs's picture

I sure am???

He's too far away to come and get me (another country) and ummmmm, I am staying away from all of his profiles??? Uhhh, (see, there's that grammar thing,lol, you jinxed me) Oh Lord help me stay away from his profiles. Have a wonderful day, and know that you made a difference already. I have actually managed a smile here and there.
Oct 16 - 12PM (Reply to #15)
Syren66 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

I'm so glad you're now

I'm so glad you're now smiling! Yah, go check out the grammar thread from time to time...it's quickly turning into a two-drink minimum over there! :D
Oct 14 - 7PM
foreverfun1
foreverfun1's picture

this is what constantly

this is what constantly puzzles me too, how can god create people like this?
Oct 16 - 8PM (Reply to #6)
dulcinea441
dulcinea441's picture

Well, for an atheist, it

Well, for an atheist, it would simply confirm that the universe is a Godless place.
Oct 16 - 9PM (Reply to #7)
alittledark
alittledark's picture

dulcinea441 you are so right

I just wanted to say to you that reading your story I related so much to the emotions you were feeling. The strong passion they bring to us, then take away from us as we begin to embrace it. My narc was way over the top with his dramatic flair in the beginning and I laughed it off, but then got hooked and wanted more of that attention that made me feel like the most beautiful, attractive female in the world. And for him to suddenly take that away and keep me hanging on was/is so very cruel. You are doing so well. I am still struggling to get where you are, but I will. God is trying to shake me. Hugs to you.

I do not want the peace which passeth understanding, I want the understanding which bringeth peace.
--Helen Keller

Oct 16 - 3PM (Reply to #4)
alittledark
alittledark's picture

foreverfun1 puzzle is the word

this is the one thing that ALWAYS gets me. So many people say they don't have a soul or conscience. For people who believe in creation, it makes you wonder why would God create someone like them. It's not like the question: Why did God create gnats? The gnats are annoying and don't seem to serve a purpose, but you can escape (mind and body) a gnat. Why would God in all of his infinite wisdom create someone who is unable to love. Of course some say, they are able to love, they just don't. They do, they don't, they can, they can't. Can make one go crazy. But if it didn't affect me on such a personal level I wouldn't give a rat's booty about it....but it did, so I am gonna think about it until the day I die, then one day in Heaven that will be one of the questions that I ask God. (One of the many questions, lol.) Keep asking questions foreverfun1 because there will be an answer one day to everything we ask.

I do not want the peace which passeth understanding, I want the understanding which bringeth peace.
--Helen Keller

Oct 16 - 7PM (Reply to #5)
outOFtheFOG13
outOFtheFOG13's picture

I thought about this too but

I thought about this too but instead of gnats, i was thinking about mosquitoes. but anyway, I believe people like that are created to allow us to learn something about ourselves, kind of like a karmic lesson. that's why i believe some of us have been involved with multiple narcs over time. there is a lesson to be learned and we are not getting it.
Oct 16 - 9AM (Reply to #2)
Daisyd
Daisyd's picture

evil

Not to talk religion but it is an interesting question. Doesn't the bible say something about the 'wheat and the tares growing side by side in the field (world) until harvest' Seems I remember that!
Oct 16 - 9PM (Reply to #3)
alittledark
alittledark's picture

Daisyd that's what I was raised to believe

because I was taught from early on that there are ultimate consequences to our actions just as there are immediate consequences. And you are either on one side or not. There is no straddling the fence (and I am going through this battle). I was also taught that the unpardonable sin is blasphemy of the holy spirit...and the holy spirit's job is to be sort of an alarm to alert us to when we are doing something that God does not condone. I believe we all sin but when we continuously, knowingly commit the same sins over and over again and totally ignore the Holy Spirit then that is pretty much blasphemous in God's eyes and the holy spirit is totally ignored. Yes, I'm sorry to have got off on a "religious view", but I wanted to add to your comment because I also have read about the wheat and the tares and if you were raised with Christian ideology and all the theology that came from studying in seminary (like my Narc) then you would tend to agree with this view, thus totally ignoring the basic foundation of Christianity which is sacrifice. You cannot have unconditional love without sacrifice.

I do not want the peace which passeth understanding, I want the understanding which bringeth peace.
--Helen Keller