WHY can't a person with PD "change"???

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#1 Oct 6 - 7PM

Crazy Train

WHY can't a person with PD "change"???

I know from everything I've read about N's, sociopaths, PD, etc that it is impossible for them to "change" or "be normal". But I just cannot wrap my mind around WHY they cannot. If therapy can help other mental disorders, why can't it help with this type?? Is it really possible that absolutely NOTHING a N says can possibly be true?? How can every word out of their mouths be a lie or delusion of some sort?

#2 Oct 7 - 9AM

Layla

You all can call me "Bitter Betty" this morning...........

.........but I care not one iota if they can "change" or "get better" or whatever you want to call it....... My abuser knew when to "act normal".....I can't tell you how many times he would be going NUTS punching holes in walls and screaming at me and my boys, and when the cops came, he was all of a sudden a docile little lamb and everything was just one big misunderstanding.......these monsters are only out for THEMSELVES and they can control themselves when it benefits THEM to do so. I won't waste one second pondering the "what ifs" for these fools.....not one of them are worth my precious time. Until God comes down and places his almighty hand on these demon's foreheads, they won't be "cured". End of story. love~ Layla

#3 Oct 9 - 6PM (Reply to #28)

Done sourcing

Spending more of my time

Spending more of my time having a life and less figuring her out is change for me. I'm the one who needed to change, she can be a narc forever, and probably will! It was my obsessive thinking that kept me demoralized, not the fact that she was a narc...somatic, cerebral, beaurocratic, or idiotic makes no difference. She had ownership of my thoughts, because I gave her the power, I didn't know that right away, but I sure do now. Time, growing, sharing, reading, writing, therapy, it was all necessary and part of the process of me growing up and moving on. ds

#4 Oct 7 - 5PM (Reply to #27)

Kitty02 (not verified)

Agreed and Amen!

#5 Oct 7 - 4AM

ifinallygotit

it like a bad dog

you try to help the stray and it seems to be getting better but then it bites you or shits in the house and runs off again its heart breaking but remember we are suffering, they are happy and think its cool to use people and run off without a care - they don't know what they are missing and do not want deep love

#6 Oct 7 - 4AM (Reply to #25)

ifinallygotit

I know it is a horror to admit but

They just are not fully human - they are lacking some of the essential qualities that distinguish us from lower level animals - they don't have the internal wiring to change. It is scary, the destruction that can happen when they seek out normal people for supply. And we actually think we are having a relationship! (though I do take responsibility for having huge blinders on, i,e, massive denial). Feel sorry for us, not them, they are fine with who they are. They think we are weak suckers. Mine never lost a wink of sleep or skipped a meal after doing awful things... he is on internet partying and laughing with dancing girls....looks very happy! this is what they do, this is the core of who they are the reason they can just abandon is because there never was a bond - it is easy for them The hard part for them is feeling like a bad guy and the negative image that comes from being labeled a jerk. They would never want to change because that would be only to serve others needs (like be a better person) which is the opposite of what drives them. Mine abandoned his kids but now volunteers at the Boys and Girls Club for photo opps to rebuild his fame (career over for 15 years) - nothing is genuine concern for others

#7 Oct 7 - 12AM

TNR1

As much as an N may say

As much as an N may say he/she wants to change, change is not what they are after...not if it requires a change in them. It is YOU who must change to fit into THEIR picture...not the other way around. That is why I think it is futile....therapy only works if the person WANTS to change and Ns are completely committed to their gradious visions of themselves. They don't want to expose that bitter, angry, tormented child to the world because then...well, then they would be like everyone else. No, much better to secure the mask even tighter, much better to find some new adoring fans, much better to continue to see yourself as superior/better/unique to everyone else. Mr. N has had several earth shattering events from loses of gfs to loses of jobs and yet....he just moves forward, blaming others for his misfortune and continuing his pursuit of the visions in his head. But don't feel sorry for him...not for a second, because he is the master of his own misery (although he won't admit it) and he is the one who can't stand intimacy or be faithful to gfs (although he would say they are crazy and demanding) and he is the one who wants to do the least amount of work (but feels entitled to be paid more). I think it is best to look at Ns as one might look at a passing tornado...they are force of nature that leaves a devistating trail in their wake. I don't think we need to explore them any further than that.

#8 Oct 6 - 10PM

rosedewittbukater

Why can't they change

There has been so much written about this by many highly qualified professionals. In a nutshell, they are incapable of change because to change would mean having to admit that there is something wrong with THEM. Here is an analogy which I learned from Lisa. When a person suffers from a mental illness i.e. depression, anxiety, etc. when that illness is treated it is like a heavy wool blanket has has been lifted off of them and that person's true personality will re-emerge again and be healthy. With a PD, it is like a cancer that has spread throughout their entire body and through every organ, tissue and cell. It is pervasive and all encompassing. In the personality of someone with a personality disorder the disorder is virtually interwoven into every fiber of that blanket. It is the fabric and foundation of who they are. If you unravel the blanket, you unravel the person’s ENTIRE PERSONALITY. http://www.lisaescott.com/2011/03/24/why-narcissist-will-never-change I am not sure I would state that every word out of their mouths is an outright lie, but almost every word out of their mouths is a manipulation. hugs, Rose

#9 Oct 6 - 11PM (Reply to #22)

rosedewittbukater

Please allow me to clarify

I agree with Dulcinea in that the above applies chiefly to Narcs and AsPD, not to Borderlines, who I believe respond well to treatment. Just my two cents.

#10 Oct 6 - 10PM

ValiditySeeker

I've wondered about this from a neurological standpoint, too

I work with special needs kids. We could assume that their brains are different from normals. If we work intensely for three years with a dyslexic kiddo, he/ she can learn to read. If a non verbal kid can learn to speak a few (or many) words with intense treatment, and a stutterer can learn to decrease the number of dysfluencies in their speech, why can't a narcissist learn empathy? If we figure out a way to train them intensely, why wouldn't the PD brain develop new neuronal connections? It would be the same as the way a post-stoke victim relearns to tie his shoes. Practice, practice, practice. But it goes back to willingness. Since they aren't willing to change, it would be impossible to find out whether or not such training would work. I'm open to the idea that it could work on a willing PD (an oxymoron if there ever was one!) though.

#11 Oct 7 - 12AM (Reply to #19)

dulcinea441

This is really interesting

This is really interesting and I've thought about this, too. It brings to mind the famous documentary on Genie, the so-called "feral child" who was rescued from a severely neglectful home life in L.A., sometime in the 1970s. She'd spent her entire existence, up til the age of twelve, in a basement, tied down to a potty-chair, with almost no human interaction. She couldn't speak or understand language. The great hope of the psychologists and linguists treating her was that she could still learn language at her very late stage of development. For a while, as she picked up increasing vocabulary to describe her environment, it seemed hopeful that she could fully achieve the ability for highly-developed language. But eventually, it had to be conceded that it was impossible for her to construct complex grammatical sentences and think in the abstractions necessary to fully communicate in that way. It would seem that there exists, in early childhood, a critical window of development wherein the brain lays down complex neural pathways to allow for the development of such skills, and once that window closes, there is no more chance of the brain developing that capacity. In the case of dyslexic children, the capacity for complex language is there, but is simply impaired by something that can be treated to remove the obstacle to the brain's natural, underlying ability to function correctly. But with sociopaths, it seems that their lack of empathy is the result of some traumatic event in early childhood, much as in the case of the feral child, that forever closed the door on the capacity to develop that particular cognitive ability. All this is just my speculation -- I make no claims to be a qualified scientist in this or any other respect!

#12 Oct 9 - 7AM (Reply to #20)

into the light

Hi Dulcinea, I know that film

Hi Dulcinea, I know that film well. Yes, the analogy fits - a psychopath, whether from birth or from early childhood, just does not have the neural capacity to develop the fundamental 'grammar' of empathy.

#13 Oct 6 - 10PM (Reply to #18)

Crazy Train

ValiditySeeker, you hit on

ValiditySeeker, you hit on the point I was trying to make. It only seems logical that everyone can be cured of SOMETHING. I would just feel terrible to find out that he couldn't help his disordered behavior and I'm referring to him as a evil outcast. Although I'm healing well from the turmoil he caused in my life, I still have a sort of delusional thought of him being perfect, like he portrayed himself to be in the beginning. I had never seen a person more in love. To think that it was all an Oscar winning act, just makes me sick.

#14 Oct 6 - 9PM

Hunter

They won't stay long enough

They won't stay long enough to get help. You see everyone else has the problem not them. They will even lie to the shrink. You can't help the Devil! Hunter

#15 Oct 6 - 10PM (Reply to #16)

FarmGirl

Relationshit Counseling

We tried it in 2005 and guess what? I ended up being the bad guy...he emerged unscathed. Nice no? It was so hard to make anyone listen to me while the charmer was working the room so to speak...

#16 Oct 6 - 10PM (Reply to #15)

dulcinea441

Yes, I've read that they go

Yes, I've read that they go into therapy after some major life crisis that, of course, was caused to them by others. Then, when they realize that the goal of their therapy sessions is not to just hear themselves talk in front of a captive audience -- that they will actually be required to examine themselves and their own disordered behavior that caused their crisis -- they quickly abandon the process. It would require them to ditch their false selves and examine the true selves that lie beneath and they will never do that.

#17 Oct 6 - 9PM (Reply to #14)

gettinbetter

Yup thats exactly right. The

Yup thats exactly right. The minute they begin to make any progress their gone. I believe this was the case with mine. Upon his return he said that he had been seeing a shrink and he seemed somewhat genuine in wanting to change but who knows that could have all been part of the ploy. One day he sent me a text saying stopped seeing my shrink today and it all went rapidly down hill from there. Ill never truly know if he was really getting help but in the end it doesnt matter. He still repeated the same destructive pattern with me.

#18 Oct 6 - 9PM

Crazy Train

Such a sad thing to happen to

Such a sad thing to happen to a person. Sometimes I feel like I should have empathy for my ex N because if he doesn't know he is disordered & his type of behavior is all he knows since birth, shouldn't I "feel sorry" for him?? Is he purposely & knowingly causing chaos in others lives, in a pre-meditated way OR is he hurting others because he doesn't even know he's doing so. Like I said, can't wrap my mind around it! I would love to think he's "innocent" of deliberate wrong, however, his actions don't speak that to me.

#19 Oct 6 - 8PM

dulcinea441

I think there is a difference

I think there is a difference between mental illness and personality disorders. Mental illness can be treated and possibly even cured. The underlying human being who suffers from a mental illness is not fundamentally defective as a person, but they suffer from an affliction that keeps their minds from operating normally. The PDI is basically a defective human being who can't be fixed. Their PD is more or less akin to having a certain eye color -- i.e., something that cannot truly be altered about them. I should say that I don't believe it to be true of all the personality disorders -- I have seen borderlines be treated and achieve recovery, which makes me think that someday the definition of that PD will be altered to a mental illness in the DSM. There is some talk of that already. But narcs and psychopaths? No.

#20 Oct 6 - 8PM (Reply to #3)

Sea

I have the same

I have the same understanding. The difference for borderline is they can care deeply while N and P cannot. I think the lack of empathy seals the fate of the N and P. Very sad but its a fact. They will be like that till they die.

#21 Oct 6 - 8PM (Reply to #4)

dulcinea441

Right. The difference being

Right. The difference being that BPD is described as "ego dystonic," meaning that they are capable of perceiving something wrong in their behavior to the extent that they will seek out therapy and recovery. They are capable, with a lot of work, of cultivating empathy for others and becoming normally-functioning, mentally-stable people, given the right type of treatment. NPD and AsPD (psychopathy), on the other hand, are characterized as "ego syntonic" behaviors, which means that they do not perceive anything to be wrong with themselves and see no reason to try to change or become "better" human beings. As a result, their capacity for empathy is basically zero, and always will be. Sad, indeed.

#22 Oct 6 - 11PM (Reply to #10)

tresor2

Dulcinea, thanks for sharing your insight

and knowledge. Yes, they definately have insight and show empathy...therapy can work for them. Borderlines suffer so much; they have huge emotion regulation problems and attachment issues. They are very wounded. I think the reason DBT is showing success is due to the Mindfulness element, in addition to emotion regulation, interpersonal effectiveness and distress tolerance. They lose themselves when triggered, but through practicing mindfulness techniques, they can learn to watch their thinking and stay in the present. Interesting to note that Marsha Linehan (credited with DBT) recently publicized her personal struggles with BPD. I've seen some with BPD, as a result of DBT, make significant strides in regulating their emotions in a healthy way. And, with age, they do mellow out.

#23 Oct 7 - 3AM (Reply to #11)

Sea

You guys are so

You guys are so knowledgeable! Thanks for sharing, I learn alot.

#24 Oct 6 - 9PM (Reply to #5)

dulcinea441

I'd like to add that

I'd like to add that borderlines are, indeed, very capable of love and empathy -- it's just that the capacity to feel these emotions shuts off during their "splitting" phase when their disorder drives them to demonize their partner out of a sense of unregulated rage and pain. They do, however, very often feel empathy and remorse for the person they have abused, after the passage of time and if they are willing to engage in painful self-examination, and this guilt can drive them to seek therapy and greater self-awareness that leads to increased empathy and decreased tendency to resort to D&D over time. Too bad this can never happen for the narcissist. All of us have, at one time or another, harbored the hope that some sense of latent empathy or compassion can be triggered in them. But there is really no known case of this ever truly happening, though anecdotal evidence supposedly exists to the contrary.

#25 Oct 6 - 9PM (Reply to #9)

Crazy Train

Truly a sad life for them,

Truly a sad life for them, dulcinea. You know a lot about this! Thank you for your explanations. I guess my lack of understanding comes from trying to figure out how & why a human being can be so cruel to another. I wouldn't treat a bug the way he treated me. Tonight I had a little flashback memory of him telling me on the phone, "someone just called me crazy"! And he sounded so puzzled about it. I am a classic co dependent, so I would love to "rescue" & "fix" him, but like you stated, it's just not possible. I hope my feelings for him lessen over time. I'm at 5wks NC and I am struggling with it every single day.

#26 Oct 6 - 9PM (Reply to #6)

gettinbetter

I have to respectfully

I have to respectfully disagree here. Borderlines are often considered one of the pd's that does the most emotional damage to their victims. Yes they can be cured with years of intensive therapy. Its not that they cant be helped its that they wont. BPD is often comorbid with NPD and alot of times it is very difficult to tell which is the predominant PD. Every borderline is narcissistic but not every narcissist is a borderline. Lack of empathy is a very predominant characteristic of those with borderline. Yes some are capable of it but they are few and far between. It is said that a borderline is one of the PD's that can really emotionally kill you. They can move on in the blink of an eye and carry on as if you never existed. Ever. I will agree that their disorder is considered one of emotional disregulation but really all of the cluster B's are consider emotional disregulation disorders. Borderline Males and Females present very differently from one another. A Borderline presents as "Cassanova" often very strong and confident not necessarily needy at all where as borderline females often come across as damsels in distress.

#27 Oct 6 - 9PM (Reply to #8)

Hunter

Gettinbetter

Yep you've passed the shrink test!! Bet you never thought you get an education on such a topic? Hunter

#28 Oct 6 - 9PM (Reply to #7)

dulcinea441

I believe it does depend on

I believe it does depend on the degree of comorbidity with other PD's Borderlines with Narcissistic traits are probably beyond help, I agree. And I agree, BPDs are known for causing some of the absolute worst damage to their victims. But I don't believe they do it for the same reasons as narcs and psychopaths. They are in a state of intense dysphoria and cannot regulate their emotional reactions even though they desperately want to be loved and are terrified of driving away those whom they love (though they invariably do). And yes, sometimes they "split" in such a way that they absolutely abandon their partners, other times not. I only presume to speak on this from my very limited place of understanding because I have seen a close family member recover from BPD after years of psychotherapy and dialectical behavior therapy. She will never truly be cured, but the degree to which she can now regulate herself and practice the techniques of mindfulness as taught by DBT have been nothing short of miraculous. whereas her life was once total chaos, she is now functioning well and maintaining good relationships with others. So I believe it is possible for them to recover, with a LOT of intensive work.

#29 Oct 6 - 8PM

tresor2

Crazy,

Think of it as "hard wired." It would be like trying to mold the planet earth into a rectangle when the nature of earth is to be round.

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