Why He Won't Ever (sincerely) Apologize

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#1 Sep 23 - 6AM

anonymous

Why He Won't Ever (sincerely) Apologize

Had a realization this morning and figured I'd share it with all of you who, like I am, are in the stage where the anger at not receiving a sincere apology is overwhelming....

To apologize sincerely would mean to accept fault. To accept fault would be possible only after deep introspection and education. The Ns are not introspective, nor have they spent the significant amount of time that we all have trying to educate themselves about their disorder, receiving therapy, talking on a support forum, talking to friends and family, etc. They haven't done the hard work that we've done. So, since they can't accept fault, they can't apologize. They sincerely think that they didn't do anything drastically wrong. And personality disorders ARE drastic - they are an embedded pattern of thinking that leads to the same dysfunctional behaviors over and over.

The scourge of NPD in particular is that the person who is that way cannot admit he/she has a problem, cannot admit that he/she needs help in any positive way (self-soothing addictive behaviors are not "help") and therefore cannot admit fault. To do so would be to shatter the image they have built up of themselves as a protective barrier and would literally mean psychological suicide.

#2 Oct 1 - 7PM

onwithmylife

Morty

You said it all, like a therapist I once went to said, if these people really look inward at themselves, they would implode, ie. have a mental breakdown and he was very serious so you think they are going to risk that? I use to keep telling my EXN to look inward, I think he thought I was speaking Chinese!>?

#3 Oct 1 - 7PM

onwithmylife

Morty

#4 Sep 25 - 7AM

anonymous

Good article

http://www.zimbio.com/Narcissistic+personality+disorder/articles/37/Inability+to+Apologize 3 and 4 fit my Ex N well

#5 Sep 25 - 8AM (Reply to #37)

gettinbetter

Yep

When I reconnected with mine. I pointed out how much he cheated on me the first time around. His reply: "I dont think I was the only one with wondering eyes. I dont think I was alone in that"

#6 Sep 24 - 12AM

sweetsamm

closure

I was just talking to someone about this exact subject.....here's how i feel about it..I don't want my ex back at all,i've moved on.....but,i would loooove to sit down with him and just have him spill everything! I mean every horrible detail of all the shit he did behind my back..closure would just put my recovery over the top..i know he will NEVER admit to everything or barely anything..I still have the fantasy that on his deathbed he tells me everything...although,i know it will never happen..

#7 Oct 1 - 10AM (Reply to #34)

helldweller

closure and deathbed confeessions

I don't think mine will admit anything on his deathbed, but I can't wait for the wake and funeral. I will be there with bells on for the whole thing, to meet all the women he has been fucking over for two decades. There were times when I wanted to bite the bullet and stay with him until he died JUST so I would be his "girlfriend" when he died. That way, I could make a huge scene at the wake when all of his other girlfriends showed up. And I'm sure they would make scenes, too, but not like mine!

#8 Oct 1 - 11AM (Reply to #35)

Susan32

Not worth the deathbed conversion

My mother said that the ex-Psych professor wasn't worth waiting for a deathbed conversion. There are cases of SINCERE repentance at the deathbed.. but I wasn't going to put my life on hold for that. I had my own life to live... it wasn't going to be spent waiting for him to see the light when he was dying. The ex-P always said that nobody would come to his funeral, that he drove people away. One of his favorite characters is Prince Andrei from Leo Tolstoy's "War and Peace",who drives loved ones away from his deathbed, crying, "Away! Away!" He seemed to think that death means assimilating with the universe, without consequences.* *The irony is that the OW had a bumper sticker saying "Anubis." In Egyptian mythology, Anubis was the jackal-headed god who judged the dead, weighing their hearts. He'd send good people to Paradise, and the bad ones to Hell. The ancient Egyptians believed in postmortem consequences.

#9 Sep 23 - 4PM

fooled no longer

apologies real or not, who needs it

I completely agree with Michele115 who I have quoted here. The pie chart thing amused me cos its the only thing I havent used yet. Hes just an ucking liar. They are Human impersonators and I need real food not imitation food, their apologies arent worth snot. "We've won the WAR when we can say "who cares" seriously...I was so friggin exasperated trying to break down and explain and did everything short of break out a fucking pie chart ever so careful to be non-confrontational and "communicate" and it was like dealing with a fucking caveman. For me...yes, irate, brain-buzzled whatever...on the apology note I am at WHO CARES...and you know something...I've examined myself, I've said some bad things...so let's say we got this much anticipated expected apology...I can't say I'm ready to apologize for my behavior...I'm not...I have said every VILE thing I possibly could to him. IF by some wierd reason, he's been abducted by aliens in the middle of the night and had an empathy transplant and came to me this afternoon with a "TRUE SINCERE" apology...seriously, after the damage he's done, the trauma his behavior has caused...I'm not frigging sorry...SO...touche to him too...I don't care anymore and I could give two craps less about his apology at this point...it just doesn't matter anymore.

#10 Sep 23 - 1PM

Briseis

Very very true and good

Very very true and good points Morty! The other side of yearning for the apology is that real apologies "restore" to us something that was taken away. So there is this sense of big "loss" if there is no apology. And getting what you "lost" back feels very important! It felt to me like my exNarc was "keeping" a part of me hostage by his refusal (or, inability) to acknowledge fault for what he did to me. What I realized as time went by (and healing continued) was that yes indeed, there WAS a real loss. But I didn't need HIM to give anything back to me. I could reach out and take it back myself. It was MINE in the first place!!! I most definitely do not want or need him to apologize, and haven't given a shit whether he did or not for a very long time, most of the three years since the end. He could abase himself, grovel, eat dirt, beg and moan, hand me fistfuls of hundred dollar bills, get a tattoo on his forehead that says "BIG NARC" . . . it would not make me "feel" better. I already took myself back. He can go apologize to God where it will do him some actual good LOL.

#11 Sep 23 - 12PM

onwithmylife

Hey morty

I could not use better words then what you just said, you summed up the NPD in a nutshell, it is ingrained in the fabric of who they are and as Sam Vaknin said and i feel is very true, there is a year in the fabric of THEIR personality, how do you change that-IMPOSSIBLE, no drug no nothing to alter that mindset, end of story.........................one of the many therapists I wet to over all the years, said for him to look inside himself, it would mean a possible mental breakdown, he would shatter like GLASS!!!

#12 Sep 23 - 10AM

better off

Honestly...

I think we need to admit we want more than an apology. We want their validation. We want them to be the way they used to be, when they gave us that validation. And if they were the way they used to be, then we would never ever let go. I'm also at the Who Cares? stage. How does anyone apologize for being a total fake and conning you? Seriously? Desiring an apology from him would mean I still NEED something from him, his validation of me, that his opinions or thoughts of me matter to my life. They don't. As has been stated, a true apology would mean that they had done the soul-searching, done the work, and committed to change. In other words, they'd be cured. If they were cured, we'd want them back! Some people here want them back while they're still raging psychopaths! So if he came back to you humbled and apologetic, you'd be all over that like white on rice. So please realize... wanting an apology is like wanting him to miraculously not be who he is. You have to give up on that idea. They are NOT like other humans.

#13 Sep 23 - 9PM (Reply to #29)

anonymous

Validation

Yeah - I blasted off this topic this morning before I left for work and I forgot to include my thoughts about needing validation. Better Off - you're right; it is validation that we seek. And for me - I'm seeking it for two reasons. 1) The narc has been an authority figure / mentor to me in my professional life for six years. At one point, as a peer to my manager, he was paid to evaluate employees' performance, including mine. So I've always experienced him as a legitimate person who has the right to evaluate me. I know that this is no longer true - but it takes a long time to rewire six years worth of ways of thinking about someone. 2) I realize now that the patterns in the relationship with the narc are the same patterns as my relationship with my mother. So what I really seek is validation from her. And I know I'll never get it. This is the woman, who during my darkest, saddest moments after the D&D told me that all I was was a piece of ass to him. What kind of mother says that to her daughter? At any rate - I'm having to deal with the realization that I've never received validation from my mother and that I lost it from him. It's so hard. But I know I don't need validation from them. It can only come from me. It's just a lifetime of relearning that I'm doing. =(

#14 Sep 23 - 4PM (Reply to #28)

Scoop

Better off

Such a great post xx

#15 Sep 23 - 8AM

Meadowbrook

Hits a nerve

Mine had been emailing me and I ignored him. Then last week he texted and I finally decided to have a conversation and let him know I know he was a fraud. Since he and I last talked I figured out about the other women. I was just going to let it go and have a littler "V" for victory by not responding. But I wanted to burst his bubble thinking that he had successfully scammed me and broken my heart and rode off into the sunset with me thinking he was a great guy. I dropped the bomb on him that I knew everything. He still made some lame attempt to explain that he was doing things differently now - that he isn't flirting as much online, etc... LIKE I CARE!!! It was bizarre listening to him squirm and he sounded like a robot that was shorting out. He talked and talked and talked. When one of the OW asked me later what he said I honestly couldn't come up with anything to tell her because he made no sense whatsoever! I felt kinda good about it for about 3 hours then sunk into a depression again. He didn't apologize at all except for lying to me about not needing to get tested for stds. He did apologize for that. But nothing about how he betrayed me and kept up a ruse with me for almost a year that almost ruined my life! I called the OW afterwards to tell her, "he knows". She told me later he called her and she described their conversation. The things he said to her were far more apologetic but he never called me back to say anything similar after he got his head together. So I know we can't really expect they understand the pain they've wrought. And I know any apology would probably not be sincere. But it hurts that he tried to make things better with her and gave me nothing. I suppose she is in a position to continue being "supply" to him so it was worth his while. But it still hurts.

#16 Sep 23 - 9PM (Reply to #23)

anonymous

A little flirting

"that he isn't flirting as much online," A somatic narc saying he's not flirting "as much" is like a woman saying she's "a little" pregnant. ;-) Sorry it struck a nerve tho. I hope you're hanging in there. Have you heard from Lim lately? She was in a similar situation to us and I haven't seen any posts. =(

#17 Sep 25 - 8AM (Reply to #24)

Meadowbrook

Morty

Just saw this post today. Yes, I do seem to remember Lim being in a similar situation. And, no, I haven't seen any posts from her. I hope that means she's doing much better. Having the "scarlet letter" as "better off" has said, is a different scenario with it's own unique pain. So it's been very helpful to hear from others in similar situations. Speaking of somatic narcs, I'm actually thinking mine was possibly more of a cerebral. That would explain why he didn't seem interested in sex with me so much as teasing, frustrating, manipulating, dominating and controlling me. All, of course, in a very seemingly well-meaning way that made it hard to pinpoint and all with "plausible deniability".

#18 Sep 25 - 4PM (Reply to #25)

anonymous

Cerebral with Lots of P/A Behavior Mixed In

Hi Meadowbrook - yes - I hope Lim is ok. I read a book just recently that talks about the exact scenario to which you refer. I think it was Dealing with the Passive Aggressive Male. It talked about how for some guys it's all about the conquest but once the woman is ready, he bails. It's manipulation at one of its highest forms. My Ex wasn't that way. I think the sexual relationship we had was the only 'healthy' and 'normal' aspect of our relationship. That was the only time I didn't feel on eggshells or feel like he was acting weird. Which, of course, made the D&D and the healing really difficult because I was 'in limerance' with him (and still am honestly) despite all of other crap that he did. =(

#19 Sep 25 - 4PM (Reply to #26)

Meadowbrook

Limerence

Great vocabulary word, morty! I had to look that one up. :-) He did say to me toward the end something like, "it could have been worse". He meant it was a good thing we didn't have sex more often because it would be harder on us both. True. In a way I think he felt he was honorable for not "using" me more. I don't know. That was part of what initially made me go back and forth about whether he was N or not. But he matches up extremely well with the cerebral N in other ways so that would explain his not "using" me for sex more. He got his kicks in other ways.

#20 Sep 23 - 10AM (Reply to #5)

Used

meadowbrook

you only have her word he apoligised to her, it doesnt mean its true, after all you told her yourself he hadnt apoligised to you... or if he knows the 2 of you are in contact, then he apoligized to her knowing she would tell you... something i learned with beign with narc that not all woman especially there exs are who they pretend to be....the ow came to me and asked something about him.. saying i wont tell him...she did.. i didnt care anyway that she told him, otherwise i wouldnt have told her anyway.. but she went back and told him, he came back and asked me why i said BECOS I CAN... and dont send these silly cows to me anymore... otherwise i will realy tell them the real deal.. if i needed any proof they were doing his bidding i got it.... 4 of them stopped talking or even looking at me!! i was pretty disappointed with some women,s behavior by the time i got out as well..

#21 Sep 23 - 10AM (Reply to #6)

better off

Excellent analysis... he

Excellent analysis... he only gave the other woman an "apology" because he felt he had to for some reason, not to benefit HER in any way. And if he knows the two of you are in contact, then anything is possible. He is surely on a damage control mission now. And this, Meadowbrook, is the reason we stay NO CONTACT. No contact with him, no contact with her, if she is still in contact. Anything they say is just more mind games for you to obsess over, wondering "what did he mean?" He doesn't mean anything. When he talks, it's just gibberish that sounds like English, but it's not. The temptation to call them out, to force them to explain, is strong, but it doesn't work. It will never work. Only one thing "works" and that is to never allow them another second to get in your head.

#22 Sep 23 - 12PM (Reply to #7)

Meadowbrook

Gibberish that sounds like English

That's a great description. I felt like a scientist observing an alien from outer space trying to impersonate a human. When I was on the phone with him I expressed no emotion at all. And I didn't feel the need to try and elicit an apology from him. I knew instinctively that whatever he said would be meaningless. I really just wanted him to know not to continue trying to contact me because "I know". But I suppose it burned me after the fact that he didn't even try! LOL. Come to think of it, what she described he said to her was more a pity party for himself than an apology to her. He was like, "I've caused so much pain" nothing specific, not mentioning HOW or WHO he hurt. He also went into a pity party for how he thought he was a great writer but really he's just a hack...yada yada yada. He's hooking her in for sure. I warned her he would do that. But she doesn't get it yet. She even said she thinks he's a sex addict and if he ever truly asked for help she would help him. WHAT?! I didn't say this to her but it's like, "let me get this straight. You, an attractive, single woman who has had a sexual relationship with a married man, are going to try and HELP him with his sex addiction??" Oy. When I heard that I KNEW she was going to remain his plaything for a while longer. Good advice to not have contact with her. The trouble is she and I are connected on Facebook. I could just block her I suppose. But she and I bonded over the whole matter and she told me she's glad we could talk because she had no one else who would understand. We're not in touch often. She's not calling or emailing. I agree it isn't healthy for me so I'm taking that a day at a time. THere may come a time when I have to say, "if you are in touch with him at all then you and I can't be in contact."

#23 Sep 23 - 12PM (Reply to #8)

Used

meadowbrook

yes, there does come a time when you will say, if you have contact with him you cant have it with me... so she wants to help him with his sex addiction.... but how does one go about that... oh its ok i know now, you become a f..k buddy. she is bad news. please block her, anyway she sounds like she is going to be busy for a while..lol.

#24 Sep 23 - 1PM (Reply to #9)

Meadowbrook

Bad news

You may be right about that. I think, if I'm totally honest, I was remaining in touch because I wanted to know what he was up to. I know I need to let it go. All of it and all of them.

#25 Sep 23 - 1PM (Reply to #10)

better off

Oh, yes, been there, done

Oh, yes, been there, done that. The curiosity is overwhelming, and it's difficult to just close the door. Or close the door and not look thru the window! Or just ask someone else to look thru the window!! LOL I have a friend that is FB friends with the exN and it's almost a pact we have that it's don't ask/don't tell about him. (she was never involved with him, and she is the one who clued me in to what I was dealing with). It's more for insurance or protection, etc, if odd things start happening. I have him blocked so I can't even look at his profile pic, or his stupid friends list, or waste any of my time trying to piece together some kind of stupid clues as to what anything means. However, I used to do that! Sometimes because I was pissed, sometimes because I missed him, but really, like you said, it's just a sliver of connection that is hard to let go. Until you do it, and then you wish you had sooner! Once I blocked him I had so much peace. We know some mutual people(spread abroad) and just seeing his face appear on the rotating friends box, tho he never posted anything, just made me start the wondering... was he looking at their page? Was he reading stuff I wrote? The ever popular is he thinking about me? Now those things don't happen. Wow, other thoughts are free to enter!! :-) We all complain about obsessing, but face it, a lot of the time, we want to keep obsessing. Obsessing is better than "nothing" and we are so afraid of having "nothing." Which is silly in HINDSIGHT. Obsessing really just keeps us from ever having SOMETHING. In your case, Meadowbrook, you are actually doing her a favor if you make a boundary of no contact unless she is no contact. Clearly she is nowhere near ready to do that if she's hanging on to the hope that he's going to seek help from his "addiction" (to himself), and she of course will be the heroine and will "be there" for him. Even tho he's married. That's a special kind of denial. It's kind of like other addictions, if she wants to get clean, you are there to talk to. If she just wants to talk about drugs, well, you can't do that anymore. You aren't doing anything wrong by taking that stance, in fact, that's responsible. For you and for her.

#26 Sep 23 - 2PM (Reply to #11)

Meadowbrook

his "addiction" (to himself) LOL!!!

I appreciate the advice about how to deal with her. I'm regretting sharing so much with her now that I feel strongly she will stay hooked. I was trying to give her the big picture of what he is and what he has done. I worked with him and experienced more of his abuse. She's been primarily involved with him via internet and phone. So I was trying to clue her in before he swung into damage control. She was VERY interested in whether or not his wife and kids were moving overseas with him. I kept telling her they most certainly were moving there with him. It seems he was lying to her about taking the family. He was going to live this lonely life there in the lap of European luxury. Poor baby. She couldn't figure out why he would lie about this. But I kept telling her, "he is a pathological liar so it might be for NO reason at all or it could be an effort to keep you hooked and thinking there is hope of being together." You would think this lie plus the other betrayals would be enough for her to block him. But we on this board all know it is not so simple. I actually think she wants me to tell his wife on him. But I'm realizing it is not because she wants him stopped and justice to be served - she hopes it will help her get him for herself. I hope I am wrong about that. But I wouldn't be surprised. One note about FB. He unfriended me when it all went down - but that was necessary under the circumstances. A few weeks later he "blocked" me. Now, there is a lot for me to be angry and upset about but this FB blocking really pisses me off. I mean, how dare he! LOL. I think he is busy telling people he had to do some blocking because he was getting stalkers because of his book. Ugh. The indignity of a social media diss!

#27 Sep 23 - 3PM (Reply to #16)

michele115 (not verified)

Oh NO!!

Not the FB Block!....Do you know what that can do to your credit?....LMAO... They're chumps and losers, don't sweat it...keep your chin up...like I once so "eloquently" said in a text message a brief time ago...and you may in fact borrow my quote: "Your not worth the "crap" on my shoes" I think it sunk in because he sent it back a few days later...LOL Chin up...onward and upward!

#28 Sep 23 - 3PM (Reply to #17)

better off

Wow, how original, he sent

Wow, how original, he sent it back to you. Not only that but it took him several days to even come up with THAT. LOL Is he Peewee Herman? "I know you are, but what am I??" Maybe he forgot which of his victims sent it to him and he thought he was using a good one on ya. ;P

#29 Sep 23 - 3PM (Reply to #18)

helldweller

I know you are, but what am I?

Better off, this is so perfect. What is with their total lack of originality? Every damn thing I said to him he responded, "You, too" "Go live your life and be happy" "You too" "If you don't want me, then leave me alone" "You too" "If you can't handle a relationship, then say good bye" "You too" "Go to Hell" "You too" Maddeningly inane.

#30 Sep 23 - 4PM (Reply to #19)

better off

It's called brain damage.

It's called brain damage. ;-) Seriously, even their language is disordered. It's a sign of psychopathy. They can't be original because there is no "them." Something I had wanted to say to the one I knew, is "the problem with you is, there is no you." Another good quote: "Trying to make sense of you is like beating a dead horse... with a dead horse." from B Is For Bad Poetry (which I highly recommend!)

#31 Sep 23 - 4PM (Reply to #20)

Meadowbrook

There's no there, there

Speaking of FB and lack of originality. Mine was very proud of his clever status updates. But he would often steal funny stuff that I had said to him! He would later say, "oh I hope you don't mind". I didn't really care. But after I was blocked I asked the OW if he ever posted this one particularly funny picture I took and had sent him recently. She said, "oh yes, he posted that and made it seem like a picture he took and it was a big hit, got lots of comments". I told him over and over how funny I thought he was. But in reality, I am pretty darn funny and he stole my stuff and never even complimented me on my wit - only on how much he liked my a@#. Shallow, empty shell of a man....

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