forgiveness

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#1 Oct 17 - 2PM
kiwi10
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forgiveness

I don't advocate forgiving someone who hurt you before you go through the anger stage. For me, I'm thinking it may be healing to me because it is the ultimate in letting go.
I can forgive him for saying he didn't love me when he married me. I can forgive him for beating me, and for cheating. I know I can. There is a song called 'oh father' by madonna where she says 'maybe someday, when I look back i'll be able to say you didn't mean to be cruel, somebody hurt you to'. It's not ok what he did and I won't ever let him hurt me again, but I don;t want to carry him around in my head anymore because i'm angry and i don't understand why he couldn't just love me. Anyway, here is an interesting article on the benefits or forgiveness (for the person doing it, not the forgivee)

love you guys.

Oct 18 - 9PM
cluelessuntilnow
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Fierflie

Forgiveness is not a destination it is a process. I told my exN I forgive him and believe me I have A LOT to forgive. I resisted for along time but finally felt that I could not heal EVER if I did not forgive him. I also resisted because the anger and not forgiving him kept me close to him and he felt like he was still inside me weighing me down. And so I told him. And since then I have felt lighter, I have had moments of being mad about some things and then I come again to the place of forgiving AGAIN and I feel lighter again. It is not the end, it is the means for healing. I also now truly understand his disorder and understand that what he did is in his nature, the fabric of his being, that it is probably not treatable and that he is really sick. And he did not choose this. And so should I hate the bear because he is a bear? No, it is his nature. Does it mean I snuggle up to the bear now that I know, no. But do I hate him for all of the disordered behavior, not so much anymore. I am just sad for him, deeply sad. This is one of my favorite quotes on forgiveness. Fierflie is is absolutely okay to forgive and you and I will probably need to forgive again, and again, but it is okay. It really is. "Forgiveness is not about forgetting. It is about letting go of another person's throat......Forgiveness does not create a relationship. Unless people speak the truth about what they have done and change their mind and behavior, a relationship of trust is not possible. When you forgive someone you certainly release them from judgment, but without true change, no real relationship can be established.........Forgiveness in no way requires that you trust the one you forgive. But should they finally confess and repent, you will discover a miracle in your own heart that allows you to reach out and begin to build between you a bridge of reconciliation.........Forgiveness does not excuse anything.........You may have to declare your forgiveness a hundred times the first day and the second day, but the third day will be less and each day after, until one day you will realize that you have forgiven completely. And then one day you will pray for his wholeness......"
Oct 18 - 9PM (Reply to #33)
kiwi10
kiwi10's picture

clueless

beautiful quote! that is exactly how i feel. exactly. i don;t trust him or love him or want a relationship with him, i'm just giving what he did back to HIM to deal with.
Oct 18 - 9PM (Reply to #34)
cluelessuntilnow
cluelessuntilnow's picture

Fierflie

Awww Fierflie I am glad you liked it. I thought of that quote immediately when I saw your post. And yes, I felt the same way you do. I did not want to and don't want to carry the burden anymore.
Oct 18 - 9PM (Reply to #35)
kiwi10
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i do feel lighter that was a

i do feel lighter that was a perfect adjective. i feel pitty, which is WAY better than that resentment and anger i felt. and for some reason, once i said those words to him, i forgave myself. insantly. i could care less what he thinks of me.
Oct 18 - 9PM (Reply to #36)
cluelessuntilnow
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Fierflie

I know, because I have been through it. For almost a year I felt a heavy weight on my chest which seemed to be a mixture of grief and anger. And then one day I realized honestly I need to forgive. It was an emotional holocoust for me, but I could not hate him forever and I thought about all the reason I shouldn't ( a million) and then all the reasons I should (they all lead to a healthier me) and I thought I am justified in hating him, but who does it hurt? Me. I carry it, I hurt, I am burdened. So I did and I feel better, not perfect but way better. I have my bad days but they aren't as bad as they were. Btw... I think it does help to say it to him. Regardless of their reaction, it is real. It is actually said to the person it needs to be said to and there is power in that. The courage to say it and say it for ourselves. Until I said it to him it meant nothing, it was like a dress rehearsal until I said it to him. His reaction was to ignore it, which frankly was fine. Because I was saying to him for ME. It WAS for me. And I am much farther down the road to healing than I was before that. I may need to forgive and forgive again, but it won't be as hard and will bring me father down the river of healing. Follow your instincts Fierflie, you are brave and you will make it. You are on your way. xo
Oct 18 - 11PM (Reply to #47)
kiwi10
kiwi10's picture

clueless

BTW, are we friends on facebook?
Oct 18 - 10PM (Reply to #37)
kiwi10
kiwi10's picture

I thought I am justified in

I thought I am justified in hating him, but who does it hurt? Me. exactly. I did tell him. he wrote me an email telling me 'i would be happy to know he would be putting of moving in for another week' I realized in him telling me what i would be feeling... in the nastiness of his tone, that he IS FUCKING SICK. He is MISSERABLE. I am simply deflecting his illness and darkness with light. like a sheild. nothing he did was ok, which is exactly why i REFUSE to hurt over it anymore. I knew he would ignore it. i am glad he did. i don't want a response from him. i don't need or want anything from him other than my check every month, and that is the honest to god's truth.
Oct 18 - 10PM (Reply to #38)
cluelessuntilnow
cluelessuntilnow's picture

Who knew Ms. Fierflie that

Who knew Ms. Fierflie that you and I share a little part in our journey? ;-) I am glad you told him. Very, because it is real. Yes he is sick and miserable. Mine is as well. Funny I joke about being the light to his dark. I think he would actually agree and has in his own way. No response is okay. It really is. It was for me. You know why because you said it for the right reasons 1) you listened to your heart and soul and did what you needed to do 2) and you did it for you.
Oct 18 - 10PM (Reply to #39)
kiwi10
kiwi10's picture

hmmm

interesting. yours was silent as well... what could they possibly say that would be a 'good' response anyway? other than 'wow, you goddess like creature! you can forgive even my ugly sick nasty behavior? i wish i was as good as you' YEAH RIGHT!!! you know they are shaking their heads thinking 'YOU forgive ME? HAHA. You DESERVED to be beat with a belt, fierflie, you loved it, don't lie.' i'm glad he was silent. i can pretend he was ashamed of his last email and is half human this way :) its nice to have someone 'get' why i had to do it. thank you.
Oct 18 - 10PM (Reply to #40)
cluelessuntilnow
cluelessuntilnow's picture

You made me laugh thinking

You made me laugh thinking about what his response would be! Hmmm, what would mine say as a good response "Wow Clueless you are a saint for forgiving me for abandoning you when you were pregnant with our son, all the while I was trying to still have sex with you. And I am SO grateful for you forgiving me for disappearing for 15 years, not helping raise our child and then coming back again to try to wreck your current happy marriage still trying to sleep with you, all the while still D&D-ing our son. And while you are forgiving me can we have phone sex?". LMAO! His silence was much, much better because I can make up my own response! I get it I do. Thank you for sharing, it is nice to have someone who gets it as well.
Oct 18 - 10PM (Reply to #41)
kiwi10
kiwi10's picture

jesus!!

You ARE a saint!! wow.. that is so aweful... i was just thinking how heartbroken i was that he WOULDN'T have sex with me. I hear you story and think you are an angel to forgive him. what an inspiration...
Oct 18 - 10PM (Reply to #42)
cluelessuntilnow
cluelessuntilnow's picture

Oh Fierflie, your response

Oh Fierflie, your response made me tear up a little. I was sooo heartbroken, sometimes I thought I would die. But I didn't. You are sweet but I am just trying to be whole after horrendous hurts and losses. I had to forgive him because the list of transgressions was too long and too much to carry. And yes the glory and good of all of this is my beautiful son whom I adore. And he does not need a mother who is full of anger and resentment. He needs a mother that is light and free to love him and support him.
Oct 18 - 10PM (Reply to #43)
kiwi10
kiwi10's picture

......... and that is what

......... and that is what makes you better than him. let them be mad at us for not 'making them good', or saving them, or being good enough. being mad at them won't change any of it. your son is so luck to have a mommy like you :)
Oct 18 - 10PM (Reply to #44)
cluelessuntilnow
cluelessuntilnow's picture

god and isn't that the

god and isn't that the truth ( I mean about them being mad we cannot save them). I swear he wants me to make him better, he wants my goodness, he tells me stuff hoping I will save him.
Oct 18 - 10PM (Reply to #45)
kiwi10
kiwi10's picture

yeah, well

mine just thinks i'ma deamoness that braught out the worst in him. who gives a shit what they think
Oct 18 - 11PM (Reply to #46)
cluelessuntilnow
cluelessuntilnow's picture

Actually, no one! ;-)

Actually, no one! ;-)
Oct 17 - 2PM
kiwi10
kiwi10's picture

oops forgot to post the link!

http://stress.about.com/od/relationships/a/forgiveness.htm?once=true&
Oct 17 - 3PM (Reply to #25)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Brie Said it

When we ask God to forgive our sins, we have to REPENT to do so appropriately. Repentance means you see what you did, you take responsibility for it, you see how it has hurt other people, and you strive to change yourself so that it does not happen again. Whatever you believe in, I don't think you can "forgive" someone who doesn't get it. YOU can forgive yourself for allowing abuse. That I think is the main focal point, fogiveness of self. That is what is making us so upset I think once we know these chumps for what they are. Forgive the self...let God or the Devil handle them - or whatever you believe in.
Oct 17 - 3PM (Reply to #26)
Briseis
Briseis's picture

Michelle

Thanks for pointing out that forgiving ourSELVES is far more important and relevant than forgiving THEM :)
Oct 17 - 3PM (Reply to #27)
kiwi10
kiwi10's picture

if it makes me feel better

if it makes me feel better can i forive myself and him knowing god will be angry for me?
Oct 17 - 4PM (Reply to #28)
Briseis
Briseis's picture

You can do whatever you want

You can do whatever you want :) It just won't help you to focus on forgiving him when you are still not quite convinced you didn't deserve his abuse. I don't think it will make you feel better to forgive him. I think it will make you feel WORSE. Think about that one for a minute, and try to understand what I might mean, maybe write out your thoughts about why forgiving him will make you feel worse. Just try it out as an idea :)
Oct 17 - 6PM (Reply to #31)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Fierflie

More than that, you cannot truly forgive him on whatever terms until you've healed. Forgiveness means it no longer emotionally affects you. Forgiveness will occur by default once you are healed because you will no longer have the need or thoughts of him so it will happen automatically and it doesn't necessarily mean you have to announce to him when this has taken place. Right now, don't get caught up in the semantics of forgiveness and how doing so yada yada yada. The first step is healing. If malice in your heart bothers you - you can control that whatever is "driving" you to think about forgiving him...I don't think you're ready to do that on any terms because this is still affecting you. To openly state: I forgive you does nothing A. Because it is not truth yet, you don't own it yet, you're still traumatized and B. It doesn't matter because he won't get it. The forgiveness GOAL is on the self. Once that is done and settled, by default without action from you, it will extend towards him. Thats just my take...and again, you don't have to announce your forgiveness to him - just know it exists. You and the creator will know.
Oct 17 - 4PM (Reply to #29)
kiwi10
kiwi10's picture

maybe you think by

maybe you think by 'forgiving' i mean saying it was ok. i mean saying it was not ok. and thats on YOU.
Oct 17 - 4PM (Reply to #30)
Briseis
Briseis's picture

You are going to put

You are going to put yourself in a home with him again, very soon. You are basically SHOUTING to him that what he did was "OK" with you. Your actions will speak to him much louder than your words. He is a Narc. He does not understand simple principles of human decency. They are all to him just a series of things to exploit. No matter what YOU think you are doing (keeping a roof over yours and your animals heads) he will see you staying there as permission and willingness. He is a Narc. Get it? A NARC. That is what he IS. And you need to see him as much less than that so you can justify staying within your comfort zone. It won't work. As a person who had to leave everything dear to her, every animal, every plant and space I created so lovingly for three years just to save my life . . . I say this to you without judgment, just understanding. Face reality, honey. It will hurt and frighten you but it will not kill you. Reality is your friend, not your enemy. We all get this one backwards, too.
Oct 17 - 3PM (Reply to #2)
Briseis
Briseis's picture

THis is a lovely article,

THis is a lovely article, very well thought out and with lots of truth. FOR ME, maybe. NOT for Fierflie. This is putting the cart ten miles before the horse!! Hell I am not even interested in forgiving my exNarc yet. That's God's job to forgive him, if He's up to it. What I've done -- after more than three years of being NC, "out" and crawling on my hands and knees toward health again -- is realize he did what he did because he is a NARC and he did to me what Narcs do to everyone who gets too close. If that's forgiveness, then I had no idea such a state of "forgiveness" existed :) You speak of yourself as attending church for some religious faith? The way I understand forgiveness, in the Christian or Jewish faith, is that it is to be freely offered. But not unless repentance happens FIRST. When we ask God to forgive our sins, we have to REPENT to do so appropriately. Repentance means you see what you did, you take responsibility for it, you see how it has hurt other people, and you strive to change yourself so that it does not happen again. That ain't NEVER gonna happen with your Narc. Or mine or anyones. Narcs don't repent. They just want forgiveness so you'll stop screaming at them or so you won't leave them. If that's how God or Jesus or whoever demands we request forgiveness for ourselves, and we are admonished to strive to be more like Him(s), then I don't forgive Jack Diddly without repentance. Why bother? Just to get vulnerable with the Narc again and get abused again? Didn't I just go through seven years of HELL? I'm not going through another second of it. It's like forgiving a bear who eats your child during a hike. Are you gonna forgive that bear?? That bear will get hungry again and act like a bear. Forgiveness and Narcs don't go well together. As you can see. The painful, icky angry experience of feeling your anger is only a prelude to the soul cleansing cold fire of righteous anger you WILL feel if you keep on your healing journey. From personal experience, that anger feels GOOD and right. It can be exhausting and cause it's own issues, but it does not feel bad. It burns away the pain of betrayal and abuse, and puts you back in the driver's seat of your own life.
Oct 18 - 4PM (Reply to #22)
mystwoman
mystwoman's picture

Wow, Briseis you really hit

Wow, Briseis you really hit the nail on the head here. "Hell I am not even interested in forgiving my exNarc yet. That's God's job to forgive him, if He's up to it. What I've done -- after more than three years of being NC, "out" and crawling on my hands and knees toward health again -- is realize he did what he did because he is a NARC and he did to me what Narcs do to everyone who gets too close." I know that as far as my xnh goes, I'm not even close to wanting to forgive him. I may forgive him in the the future, and then again I may not. For me, time will tell. I'm still working through my anger at this point. I think I'm currently more at what I call the "Iris Dement" stage right now than I am the forgiveness stage. I'm not a huge bluegrass music fan necessarily but I'm pasting the words to one of her songs below (God May Forgive You But I Don't). For me, her words very much apply: You say that you're born again cleansed of your former sins You want me to say "I forgive and forget" But you've done too much to me Don't you be touching me, go back and touch all those women you've made Chorus: 'cause God may forgive you, but I won't Yes, Jesus loves you, but I don't They don't have to live with you and neither do I You say that you're born again, well so am I God may forgive you, but I won't and I won't even try Well, the kids had to cry for you I had to try to do things that the Dad should do since you've been gone Well, you really let us down You may be Heaven 'bound but you've left one hell of a mess here at home (chorus) and I won't even try

______________________________________________________
God sometimes removes a person from your life for your protection. Don't run after them.

Oct 18 - 5PM (Reply to #23)
kiwi10
kiwi10's picture

i think your anger is great

and it is certainly deserved and understandable. i have always been uncomfortable physically with anger. it feels toxic to me. it keeps me tied to him. i think we all have to do what is right for us and listen to our own hearts. i feel good letting go of my anger. thats just me.
Oct 18 - 6PM (Reply to #24)
mystwoman
mystwoman's picture

Oh, I have no intention of

Oh, I have no intention of hanging onto my anger. I agree with you that anger is toxic, and I don't want anything keeping me tied to my xnh either. I just feel that I need to work through and deal with my anger in order for me to "clear it out of the cache" so to speak. Bitter and angry is NOT where I wish to take my future. My xnh doesn't GET to have that power over me. Therefore, my intent is to work through my anger I'm having about my relationship with xnh, and move onto better things. Forgiveness could well be in my future for my xnh. However, right now I still need to work through the "letting go of the anger" part. For me, I'm having to take recovery and healing one baby step at a time. I've very happy for you that you can let go of your anger. That is a very good thing. Your are right, we all have to listen to our own hearts.

______________________________________________________
God sometimes removes a person from your life for your protection. Don't run after them.

Oct 17 - 3PM (Reply to #3)
kiwi10
kiwi10's picture

It's like forgiving a bear

It's like forgiving a bear who eats your child during a hike. Are you gonna forgive that bear?? That bear will get hungry again and act like a bear. ... good analogy. damn your good. ok. so i should NOT forgive him? he is never going to be 'sorry' for anything. but why can;t i just forgive him? here's an analogy I have: If my five year old nephew punches me because he is angry, and his mom makes him appologize, but he isn't really sorry because he is 5, should I stay angry at him?
Oct 17 - 6PM (Reply to #19)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Fierflie/5year old...

The Narc isn't five. He may or may not know his defect. He is what he is...flesh and a hollow shell There is nothing to forgive in terms of HIM It is what it is... The forgiveness is for yourself, do not cast your pearls amongst swine. You do not have to hold hate and anger, but you do not have to supply SUPPPLY S U P P L Y him with forgiveness. It will be yours to own. Forgiveness of yourself which by default will extend towards him.