Wolves in Sheep's Clothing

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#1 Mar 24 - 8AM
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Wolves in Sheep's Clothing

An Excerpt from the book: In Sheep's Clothing
By George K. Simon

Two Basic Types of Aggression

There are two basic types of aggression: overt-aggression and covert-aggression. When you're determined to have something and you're open, direct and obvious in your manner of fighting, your behavior is best labeled overtly aggressive. When you're out to "win," dominate or control, but are subtle, underhanded or deceptive enough to hide your true intentions, your behavior is most appropriately labeled covertly aggressive. Now, avoiding any overt display of aggression while simultaneously intimidating others into giving you what you want is a powerfully manipulative maneuver. That's why covert-aggression is most often the vehicle for interpersonal manipulation.

Acts of Covert-Aggression vs. Covert-Aggressive Personalities

Most of us have engaged in some sort of covertly aggressive behavior from time to time. Periodically trying to manipulate a person or a situation doesn't make someone a covert-aggressive personality. Personality can be defined by the way a person habitually perceives, relates to and interacts with others and the world at large.

The tactics of deceit, manipulation and control are a steady diet for covert-aggressive personality. It's the way they prefer to deal with others and to get the things they want in life.

The Process of Victimization

For a long time, I wondered why manipulation victims have a hard time seeing what really goes on in manipulative interactions. At first, I was tempted to fault them. But I've learned that they get hoodwinked for some very good reasons:

1. A manipulator's aggression is not obvious. Our gut may tell us that they're fighting for something, struggling to overcome us, gain power, or have their way, and we find ourselves unconsciously on the defensive. But because we can't point to clear, objective evidence they're aggressing against us, we can't readily validate our feelings.

2. The tactics manipulators use can make it seem like they're hurting, caring, defending, ..., almost anything but fighting. These tactics are hard to recognize as merely clever ploys. They always make just enough sense to make a person doubt their gut hunch that they're being taken advantage of or abused. Besides, the tactics not only make it hard for you to consciously and objectively tell that a manipulator is fighting, but they also simultaneously keep you or consciously on the defensive. These features make them highly effective psychological weapons to which anyone can be vulnerable. It's hard to think clearly when someone has you emotionally on the run.

3. All of us have weaknesses and insecurities that a clever manipulator might exploit. Sometimes, we're aware of these weaknesses and how someone might use them to take advantage of us. For example, I hear parents say things like: "Yeah, I know I have a big guilt button." – But at the time their manipulative child is busily pushing that button, they can easily forget what's really going on. Besides, sometimes we're unaware of our biggest vulnerabilities. Manipulators often know us better than we know ourselves. They know what buttons to push, when and how hard. Our lack of self-knowledge sets us up to be exploited.

4. What our gut tells us a manipulator is like, challenges everything we've been taught to believe about human nature. We've been inundated with a psychology that has us seeing everybody, at least to some degree, as afraid, insecure or "hung-up." So, while our gut tells us we're dealing with a ruthless conniver, our head tells us they must be really frightened or wounded "underneath." What's more, most of us generally hate to think of ourselves as callous and insensitive people. We hesitate to make harsh or seemingly negative judgments about others. We want to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they don't really harbor the malevolent intentions we suspect. We're more apt to doubt and blame ourselves for daring to believe what our gut tells us about our manipulator's character.

Recognizing Aggressive Agendas

Accepting how fundamental it is for people to fight for the things they want and becoming more aware of the subtle, underhanded ways people can and do fight in their daily endeavors and relationships can be very consciousness expanding. Learning to recognize an aggressive move when somebody makes one and learning how to handle oneself in any of life's many battles, has turned out to be the most empowering experience for the manipulation victims with whom I've worked. It's how they eventually freed themselves from their manipulator's dominance and control and gained a much needed boost to their own sense of self esteem. Recognizing the inherent aggression in manipulative behavior and becoming more aware of the slick, surreptitious ways that manipulative people prefer to aggress against us is extremely important. Not recognizing and accurately labeling their subtly aggressive moves causes most people to misinterpret the behavior of manipulators and, therefore, fail to respond to them in an appropriate fashion. Recognizing when and how manipulators are fighting with covertly aggressive tactics is essential.

Defense Mechanisms and Offensive Tactics

Almost everyone is familiar with the term defense mechanism. Defense mechanisms are the "automatic" (i.e. unconscious) mental behaviors all of us employ to protect or defend ourselves from the "threat" of some emotional pain. More specifically, ego defense mechanisms are mental behaviors we use to "defend" our self-images from "invitations" to feel ashamed or guilty about something. There are many different kinds of ego defenses and the more traditional (psychodynamic) theories of personality have always tended to distinguish the various personality types, at least in part, by the types of ego defenses they prefer to use. One of the problems with psychodynamic approaches to understanding human behavior is that they tend to depict people as most always afraid of something and defending or protecting themselves in some way; even when they're in the act of aggressing. Covert-aggressive personalities (indeed all aggressive personalities) use a variety of mental behaviors and interpersonal maneuvers to help ensure they get what they want. Some of these behaviors have been traditionally thought of as defense mechanisms.

While, from a certain perspective we might say someone engaging in these behaviors is defending their ego from any sense of shame or guilt, it's important to realize that at the time the aggressor is exhibiting these behaviors, he is not primarily defending (i.e. attempting to prevent some internally painful event from occurring), but rather fighting to maintain position, gain power and to remove any obstacles (both internal and external) in the way of getting what he wants. Seeing the aggressor as on the defensive in any sense is a set-up for victimization. Recognizing that they're primarily on the offensive, mentally prepares a person for the decisive action they need to take in order to avoid being run over. Therefore, I think it's best to conceptualize many of the mental behaviors (no matter how "automatic" or "unconscious" they may appear) we often think of as defense mechanisms, as offensive power tactics, because aggressive personalities employ them primarily to manipulate, control and achieve dominance over others. Rather than trying to prevent something emotionally painful or dreadful from happening, anyone using these tactics is primarily trying to ensure that something they want to happen does indeed happen. Using the vignettes presented in the previous chapters for illustration, let's take a look at the principal tactics covert-aggressive personalities use to ensure they get their way and maintain a position of power over their victims:

Denial – This is when the aggressor refuses to admit that they've done something harmful or hurtful when they clearly have. It's a way they lie (to themselves as well as to others) about their aggressive intentions. This "Who... Me?" tactic is a way of "playing innocent," and invites the victim to feel unjustified in confronting the aggressor about the inappropriateness of a behavior. It's also the way the aggressor gives him/herself permission to keep right on doing what they want to do. This denial is not the same kind of denial that a person who has just lost a loved one and can't quite bear to accept the pain and reality of the loss engages in. That type of denial really is mostly a "defense" against unbearable hurt and anxiety. Rather, this type of denial is not primarily a "defense" but a maneuver the aggressor uses to get others to back off, back down or maybe even feel guilty themselves for insinuating he's doing something wrong.

In the story of James the minister, James' denial of his ruthless ambition is massive. He denied he was hurting and neglecting his family. He especially denied he was aggressively pursuing any personal agenda. On the contrary, he cast himself as the humble servant to a honorable cause. He managed to convince several people (and maybe even himself) of the nobility and purity of his intentions. But underneath it all, James knew he was being dishonest: This fact is borne out in his reaction to the threat of not getting a seat on the Elders' Council if his marital problems worsened. When James learned he might not get what he was so aggressively pursuing after all, he had an interesting "conversion" experience. All of a sudden, he decided he could put aside the Lord's bidding for a weekend and he might really need to devote more time to his marriage and family. James' eyes weren't opened by the pastor's words. He always kept his awareness high about what might hinder or advance his cause. He knew if he didn't tend to his marriage he might lose what he really wanted. So, he chose (at least temporarily) to alter course.

In the story of Joe and Mary, Mary confronted Joe several times about what she felt was insensitivity and ruthlessness on his part in his treatment of Lisa. Joe denied his aggressiveness. He also successfully convinced Mary that what she felt in her gut was his aggressiveness was really conscientiousness, loyalty, and passionate fatherly concern. Joe wanted a daughter who got all A's. Mary stood in the way. Joe's denial was the tactic he used to remove Mary as an obstacle to what he wanted.

Selective Inattention – This tactic is similar to and sometimes mistaken for denial It's when the aggressor "plays dumb," or acts oblivious. When engaging in this tactic, the aggressor actively ignores the warnings, pleas or wishes of others, and in general, refuses to pay attention to everything and anything that might distract them from pursuing their own agenda. Often, the aggressor knows full well what you want from him when he starts to exhibit this "I don't want to hear it!" behavior. By using this tactic, the aggressor actively resists submitting himself to the tasks of paying attention to or refraining from the behavior you want him to change. In the story of Jenny and Amanda, Jenny tried to tell Amanda she was losing privileges because she was behaving irresponsibly. But Amanda wouldn't listen. Her teachers tried to tell her what she needed to do to improve her grade: but she didn't listen to them either. Actively listening to and heeding the suggestions of someone else are, among other things, acts of submission. And, as you may remember from the story, Amanda is not a girl who submits easily. Determined to let nothing stand in her way and convinced she could eventually "win" most of her power struggles with authority figures through manipulation, Amanda closed her ears. She didn't see any need to listen. From her point of view, she would only have lost some power and control if she submitted herself to the guidance and direction offered by those whom she views as less powerful, clever and capable as herself.

Rationalization – A rationalization is the excuse an aggressor tries to offer for engaging in an inappropriate or harmful behavior. It can be an effective tactic, especially when the explanation or justification the aggressor offers makes just enough sense that any reasonably conscientious person is likely to fall for it. It's a powerful tactic because it not only serves to remove any internal resistance the aggressor might have about doing what he wants to do (quieting any qualms of conscience he might have) but also to keep others off his back. If the aggressor can convince you he's justified in whatever he's doing, then he's freer to pursue his goals without interference.

In the story of little Lisa, Mary felt uneasy about the relentlessness with which Joe pursued his quest to make his daughter an obedient, all-A student once again. And, she was aware of Lisa's expressed desire to pursue counseling as a means of addressing and perhaps solving some of her problems. Although Mary felt uneasy about Joe's forcefulness and sensed the impact on her daughter, she allowed herself to become persuaded by his rationalizations that any concerned parent ought to know his daughter better than some relatively dispassionate outsider and that he was only doing his duty by doing as much as he possibly could to "help" his "little girl." When a manipulator really wants to make headway with their rationalizations they'll be sure their excuses are combined with other effective tactics. For example, when Joe was "selling" Mary on the justification for shoving his agenda down everyone's throat he was also sending out subtle invitations for her to feel ashamed (shaming her for not being as "concerned" a parent as he was) as well as making her feel guilty (guilt-tripping her) for not being as conscientious as he was pretending to be.

Diversion – A moving target is hard to hit. When we try to pin a manipulator down or try to keep a discussion focused on a single issue or behavior we don't like, he's expert at knowing how to change the subject, dodge the issue or in some way throw us a curve. Manipulators use distraction and diversion techniques to keep the focus off their behavior, move us off-track, and keep themselves free to promote their self-serving hidden agendas.

Rather than respond directly to the issue being addressed, Amanda diverted attention to her teacher's and classmates' treatment of her. Jenny allowed Amanda to steer her off track. She never got a straight answer to the question.

Another example of a diversion tactic can be found in the story of Don and Al. Al changed the subject when Don asked him if he had any plans to replace him. He focused on whether he was unhappy or not with Don's sales performance – as if that's what Don had asked him about in the first place. He never gave Don a straight answer to a straight question (manipulators are notorious for this). He told him what he thought would make Don feel less anxious and would steer him away from pursuing the matter any further. Al left feeling like he'd gotten an answer but all he really got was the "runaround."

Early in the current school year, I found it necessary to address my son's irresponsibility about doing his homework by making a rule that he bring his books home every night. One time I asked: "Did you bring your books home today?" His response was: "Guess what, Dad. Instead of tomorrow, we're not going to have our test – until Friday." My question was simple and direct. His answer was deliberately evasive and diversionary. He knew that if he answered the question directly and honestly, he would have received a consequence for failing to bring his books home. By using diversion (and also offering a rationalization) he was already fighting with me to avoid that consequence. Whenever someone is not responding directly to an issue, you can safely assume that for some reason, they're trying to give you the slip.

Lying – It's often hard to tell when a person is lying at the time he's doing it. Fortunately, there are times when the truth will out because circumstances don't bear out somebody's story. But there are also times when you don't know you've been deceived until it's too late. One way to minimize the chances that someone will put one over on you is to remember that because aggressive personalities of all types will generally stop at nothing to get what they want, you can expect them to lie and cheat. Another thing to remember is that manipulators – covert-aggressive personalities that they are – are prone to lie in subtle, covert ways. Courts are well aware of the many ways that people lie, as they require that court oaths charge that testifiers tell "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth." Manipulators often lie by withholding a significant amount of the truth from you or by distorting the truth. They are adept at being vague when you ask them direct questions. This is an especially slick way of lying' omission. Keep this in mind when dealing with a suspected wolf in sheep's clothing. Always seek and obtain specific, confirmable information.

Covert Intimidation – Aggressors frequently threaten their victims to keep them anxious, apprehensive and in a one-down position. Covert-aggressives intimidate their victims by making veiled (subtle, indirect or implied) threats. Guilt-tripping and shaming are two of the covert-aggressive's favourite weapons. Both are special intimidation tactics.

Guilt-tripping – One thing that aggressive personalities know well is that other types of persons have very different consciences than they do. Manipulators are often skilled at using what they know to be the greater conscientiousness of their victims as a means of keeping them in a self-doubting, anxious, and submissive position. The more conscientious the potential victim, the more effective guilt is as a weapon. Aggressive personalities of all types use guilt-tripping so frequently and effectively as a manipulative tactic, that I believe it illustrates how fundamentally different in character they are compared to other (especially neurotic) personalities. All a manipulator has to do is suggest to the conscientious person that they don't care enough, are too selfish, etc., and that person immediately starts to feel bad. On the contrary, a conscientious person might try until they're blue in the face to get a manipulator (or any other aggressive personality) to feel badly about a hurtful behavior, acknowledge responsibility, or admit wrongdoing, to absolutely no avail.

Shaming – This is the technique of using subtle sarcasm and put-downs as a means of increasing fear and self-doubt in others. Covert-aggressives use this tactic to make others feel inadequate or unworthy, and therefore, defer to them. It's an effective way to foster a continued sense of personal inadequacy in the weaker party, thereby allowing an aggressor to maintain a position of dominance.

When Joe loudly proclaimed any "good" parent would do just as he was doing to help Lisa, he subtly implied Mary would be a "bad" parent if she didn't attempt to do the same. He "invited" her to feel ashamed of herself. The tactic was effective. Mary eventually felt ashamed for taking a position that made it appear she didn't care enough about her own daughter. Even more doubtful of her worth as a person and a parent, Mary deferred to Joe, thus enabling him to rein a position of dominance over her. Covert-aggressives are expert at using shaming tactics in the most subtle ways. Sometimes it can just be in the glances they give or the tone of voice they use. Using rhetorical comments, subtle sarcasm and other techniques, they can invite you to feel ashamed of yourself for even daring to challenge them. Joe tried to shame Mary when I considered accepting the educational assessment performed by Lisa's school. He said something like: "I'm not sure what kind of doctor you are or just what kind of credentials you have, but I'm sure you'd agree that a youngster's grades wouldn't slip as much as Lisa's for no reason. You couldn't be entirely certain she didn't have a learning disability unless you did some testing, could you?' With those words, he "invited" Mary to feel ashamed of herself for not at least considering doing just as he asked. If Mary didn't have a suspicion about what he was up to, she might have accepted this invitation without a second thought.

Playing the Victim Role – This tactic involves portraying oneself as an innocent victim of circumstances or someone else's behavior in order to gain sympathy, evoke compassion and thereby get something from another. One thing that covert-aggressive personalities count on is the fact that less calloused and less hostile personalities usually can't stand to see anyone suffering. Therefore, the tactic is simple. Convince your victim you're suffering in some way, and they'll try to relieve your distress.

In the story of Amanda and Jenny, Amanda was good at playing the victim role too. She had her mother believing that she (Amanda) was the victim of extremely unfair treatment and the target of unwarranted hostility. I remember Jenny telling me: "Sometimes I think Amanda's wrong when she says her teacher hates her and I hate her. But what if that's what she really believes? Can I afford to be so firm with her if she believes in her heart that I hate her?" I remember telling Jenny: "Whether Amanda has come to believe her own distortions is almost irrelevant. She manipulates you because you believe that she believes it and allow that supposed belief to serve as an excuse for her undisciplined aggression."

Vilifying the Victim – This tactic is frequently used in conjunction with the tactic of playing the victim role. The aggressor uses this tactic to make it appear he is only responding (i.e. defending himself against) aggression on the part of the victim. It enables the aggressor to better put the victim on the defensive.

Returning again to the story of Jenny and Amanda, when Amanda accuses her mother of "hating" her and "always saying mean things" to her, she not only invites Jenny to feel the "bully," but simultaneously succeeds in "bullying" Jenny into backing off. More than any other, the tactic of vilifying the victim is a powerful means of putting someone unconsciously on the defensive while simultaneously masking the aggressive intent and behavior of the person using the tactic.

Playing the Servant Role – Covert-aggressives use this tactic to cloak their self-serving agendas in the guise of service to a more noble cause. It's a common tactic but difficult to recognize. By pretending to be working hard on someone else's behalf, covert-aggressives conceal their own ambition, desire for power, and quest for a position of dominance over others. In the story of James (the minister) and Sean, James appeared to many to be the tireless servant. He attended more activities than he needed to attend and did so eagerly. But if devoted service to those who needed him was his aim, how does one explain the degree to which James habitually neglected his family? As an aggressive personality, James submits himself to no one. The only master he serves is his own ambition. Not only was playing the servant role an effective tactic for James, but also it's the cornerstone upon which corrupt ministerial empires of all types are built. A good example comes to mind in the recent true story of a well-known tele-evangelist who locked himself up in a room in a purported display of "obedience" and "service" to God. He even portrayed himself' a willing sacrificial lamb who was prepared to be "taken by God" if he didn't do the Almighty's bidding and raise eight million dollars. He claimed he was a humble servant, merely heeding the Lord's will. He was really fighting to save his substantial material empire.

Another recent scandal involving a tele-evangelist resulted in his church's governance body censuring him for one year. But he told his congregation he couldn't stop his ministry because he had to be faithful to the Lord's will (God supposedly talked to him and told him not to quit). This minister was clearly being defiant of his church's established authority. Yet, he presented himself as a person being humbly submissive to the "highest" authority. One hallmark characteristic of covert-aggressive personalities is loudly professing subservience while fighting for dominance.

Seduction – Covert-aggressive personalities are adept at charming, praising, flattering or overtly supporting others in order to get them to lower their defenses and surrender their trust and loyalty. Covert-aggressives are also particularly aware that people who are to some extent emotionally needy and dependent (and that includes most people who aren't character-disordered) want approval, reassurance, and a sense of being valued and needed more than anything. Appearing to be attentive to these needs can be a manipulator's ticket to incredible power over others. Shady "gurus" like Jim Jones and David Koresh seemed to have refined this tactic to an art. In the story of Al and Don, Al is the consummate seducer. He melts any resistance you might have to giving him your loyalty and confidence. He does this by giving you what he knows you need most. He knows you want to feel valued and important. So, he often tells you that you are. You don't find out how unimportant you really are to him until you turn out to be in his way.

Projecting the blame (blaming others) – Aggressive personalities are always looking for a way to shift the blame for their aggressive behavior. Covert-aggressives are not only skilled at finding scapegoats, they're expert at doing so in subtle, hard to detect ways.

Minimization – This tactic is a unique kind of denial coupled with rationalization. When using this maneuver, the aggressor is attempting to assert that his abusive behavior isn't really as harmful or irresponsible as someone else may be claiming. It's the aggressor's attempt to make a molehill out of a mountain.

I've presented the principal tactics that covert-aggressives use to manipulate and control others. They are not always easy to recognize. Although all aggressive personalities tend to use these tactics, covert-aggressives generally use them slickly, subtly and adeptly. Anyone dealing with a covertly aggressive person will need to heighten gut-level sensitivity to the use of these tactics if they're to avoid being taken in by them.

Nov 7 - 1PM
gettinbetter
gettinbetter's picture

This was so informative

I dont post much anymore having hit bottom a couple of weeks ago. The N exhibited every single one of these behaviors. I finally outted him. I did not use the word Narcissist but that it his lack of empathy and introspection that had everyone who ever cared about him eventually exiting his life. I did it in a non agressive way. I invited him to examine why all of his relationships have failed. I think it was an act of self preservation on my part knowing that once he knew I was on to him that he would never be back. Weeks ago I was too fearful to do that fearing that I would never see or hear from him again. Today I dont care. He is somebodys elses misery. Its not my job to feel pity or save his soul. I realize now that the silent treatment I have received from him for my transgressions was anything but silent it was him screaming with envy that I married and went on with my life and that there was now another man and child at the center of my attention. I think alot of agression is directed not only at me but at my husband. I think he adopted the mind set of "If I cant have her no one will" His objective to poision my mind to where I focused on him constantly where he would consume all of my thoughts and I must say he did a pretty good job. I dont know that outting him was the best way to deal with it as I know that gave him supply but it was negative supply. For me It was like covering my self in Narc repellant. I am not healed but I recognize him for the piece of shit he is. Today I dont feel sorry for him one bit. So today I am spending time with my family watching football and trying to enjoy life again. I have been given so many blessing its time I stop wallowing around in self pity and give thanks for all of the wonderful things I have been given in life. This is how I feel today but you know how it goes tommorow maybe a different story LOL Oh yeah and btw he hates to cold weather. He should do just fine in hell plenty warm there.
Nov 7 - 6PM (Reply to #31)
Susan32
Susan32's picture

Somebody else's misery

One of my friends noted that when I met the ex-P's fiancee, I was, oddly, NOT envious of her. She said "if you were head over heels in love, you'd be seething with jealousy." My friend noted that it was the ex-P HIMSELF who was my rival, it had NOTHING to do with the other woman! When the OW married the ex-P not long before she gave birth to his twins (it was a matter of months between the marriage&the births), I did feel a normal, human twinge of jealousy.. but then I remembered how he had treated ME and that I was blessed to NOT be his wife, and NOT be the mother of his kids! I read here of women who've married&had kids with Ns, spending years with them... and the loss of youth, loss of time. It was a backhanded blessing. "Somebody else's misery"-I remember reading how the ex-P's parents had moved in with him and were raising his twins. What was bizarre was that I had predicted that the ex-P's parents would raise his kids... 5 years BEFORE he got married and had kids (WTF?) I am glad to be out of that drama. For the past decade, I've had painful memories I've repressed, he is somebody else's misery... but he is NOT part of my present. I am coming to terms with my past. I'm glad he doesn't live a block from me. If I had stayed in New Mexico, I would've been part of the push/pull cycle. I HAD to get out of there. For my own good. "It is not my job to pity or save his soul"-What's weird is that the ex-P would talk with me A LOT about how pity differs from love, and that I pitied him instead of loved him. As a Christian, I do believe in praying for people's souls, praying for people's salvation (Jesus died for them too)--but in the end, it's between the ex-P and God. Jesus died on the Cross for the ex-P's soul. Whether or not the ex-P gets right with God, it's HIS choice. God gave us free will.
Nov 7 - 4PM (Reply to #27)
blueeyes
blueeyes's picture

sick of it

The silent treatment hurts. I used to get punished this way. Now, I pray for it. Wink, smile.
Nov 7 - 5PM (Reply to #28)
gettinbetter
gettinbetter's picture

blueeyes

I pray I never see his face again. I have read alot lately about trauma bonds. I definitely believe thats what drew me back in for round 2. I had something very traumatic happen with the Narc. I have never discussed it here. Actually He and I never discussed it until last year. He used it as a way to get close to me feigning hurt and empathy. I think my getting mixed up with him again was me trying to make sense of it all. How can you make sense of something with a person that has no soul? Whose actions dont match their words You cant. I have driven myself crazy trying to. Im going back to my life. My normal life full of friends and family. Today I took my daughter to the park. I havent had the energy to do that in a while. A baked a pan of brownies. Its the little things... Im crying as I type this realizing how slowly I had become debilitated from his poision. All the while my husband thinking its the stress of my job. I will never let this man near me again. Hopefully by my outting him I have sprayed enough narc repellant for him to stay away forever. Thank God this time around he lives far away from me. Im remembering one time I came home from seeing him and I threw up. If that doesnt tell ya somethin....
Nov 7 - 6PM (Reply to #30)
anonymous
anonymous's picture

Sick of It - I'm Glad You're Back

I'm glad to see you posting again. I haven't been on much ... life is getting back to normal finally. But I was worried about you when I saw you stop posting. And I'm glad you're back and sounding stronger.
Nov 7 - 5PM (Reply to #29)
blueeyes
blueeyes's picture

SOI, and round 2

Trauma bonds? That's what we have here!! US all here are bonded from the scars of abuse. I left out a lot in my story. There is always more abuse with these men.
Nov 7 - 3PM (Reply to #26)
gettinbetter
gettinbetter's picture

Thanks Faith

The funny thing is I feel as though I have been bitten by a poinus snake or insect. So much so that a couple of weeks ago a boil came up on my leg. I have not had a boil since I was a child. They come from impurities in your blood or what the internet terms as an "unhealthy lifestyle" so weird that I got one of those. Shows you the toxicity they bring to your mind and body. Marketing Narc Repellant hmmm I think you are on to something:) Hope you are having a great day.
Nov 7 - 2PM (Reply to #25)
faithinthefuture
faithinthefuture's picture

sickofit

they're like little spoiled rotten children. He's soo jealous that you went on to find happiness without him. Imagine that. And yes what a party they will have when they all meet in hell. :-) And you could make millions with a narc repellent! What an awesome idea. I bet it would sell it the Spencer stores. (store w/soo many kooky items) I am dead ass serious! Find a way to market it! :-)
Nov 6 - 8PM
Klarity Belle
Klarity Belle's picture

Bumping up an old informative post

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "The deeper that sadness carves into your being, the more joy you can contain." ~ Kahlil Gibran "That which we do not confront in ourselves we meet as fate" ~ Carl Jung http://www.storyofmylife.com/KLARITY4

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The deeper that sadness carves into your being, the more joy you can contain." ~ Kahlil Gibran

"That which we do not confront in ourselves we meet as fate" ~ Carl Jung

http://www.storyofmylife.com/KLARITY4

Jun 1 - 7AM
Barbara (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Wolves in Sheeps Clothing

READ TOP POST ~~~~~~~~~ Moving Forward: Coaching for Victims Pathologicals Feelings buried alive never die. - Alice Miller
Feb 6 - 5PM
aceonelady
aceonelady's picture

ex N wolf call...i am shaking

Last night around 3am European time the phone rings...Ex N after 3 months saying sorry i called by mistake...But ,he tells me i want to tell you that the 3 years with you i didnt get anything from them only i learned how to recognize and avoid someone like you and after what you did to me i am scared as hell to fall for your type of woman...Please ladies read my story i am totally hurt ,confused and sad ...and i told him remember you enticed me and went after me like crazy?He said sorry i didnt mean to entice you....Exactly the post above

Aceonelady

Feb 6 - 5PM
Barbara (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Wolves in Sheep's Clothing

READ TOP POST ~~~~~~~~~ The truth will set you free... but first it will piss you off - Gloria Steinem Visit My Abuse Website
Jan 15 - 5PM
time_to_move_on
time_to_move_on's picture

George Simon...

who wrote Wolves in Sheeps Clothing...does some good articles on counsellingresource.com, this one here rang very true for me.. it's about not accepting excuses for bad behaviour... http://counsellingresource.com/features/2009/04/20/the-secrets-of-personal-empowerment/ Joseph Carver also did several articles on dating losers: http://counsellingresource.com/quizzes/loser/index.html These articles really helped me in realising my ex was never going to change, ever. Barbara, if not okay to post pls delete. Thanks.
Jan 15 - 7PM (Reply to #19)
Barbara (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

time to move on

It's ok but if you'd checked the boards you'd see both those articles have been posted here before. ~~~~~~~~~ The truth will set you free... but first it will piss you off - Gloria Steinem Visit My Abuse Website
Jan 14 - 11PM
Barbara (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Covert Aggression - a MUST read

READ TOP POST ~~~~~~~~~ The truth will set you free... but first it will piss you off - Gloria Steinem Visit My Abuse Website
Nov 6 - 1AM
Barbara (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

wolves in sheeps clothing

READ TOP POST ~~~~~~~~~~~~ My Abuse Information Site Online Coaching & Help
Oct 23 - 7AM
Barbara (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

wolves... in sheep's clothing

SEE TOP POST ~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Pathologicals only discard the best, most precious of gems of people... not the worst. They despise the strong, principled, decent & honest. Their discarding of you is then their highest commendation of your worth!" - A.V.
Oct 8 - 7AM
Barbara (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

how Ns victimize you

SEE TOP POST ~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Pathologicals only discard the best, most precious of gems of people... not the worst. They despise the strong, principled, decent & honest. Their discarding of you is then their highest commendation of your worth!" - A.V.
Sep 25 - 11PM
Barbara (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

wolves in sheep's clothing (their pattern)

SEE TOP POST ~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Pathologicals only discard the best, most precious of gems of people... not the worst. They despise the strong, principled, decent & honest. Their discarding of you is then their highest commendation of your worth!" - A.V.
Sep 8 - 6AM
Barbara (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

wolves in sheep's clothing

SEE TOP POST ~~~~~~~~~~~~ CLICK HERE: Articles & information for Narc Victims - Updated Daily "As soon as you feel that crazy sense of walking on eggshells, fending off N-rage, stop. Walk away." - Dr. M. Beck
Aug 13 - 2PM
Barbara (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

wolf in sheep's clothing

SEE TOP POST ~~~~~~~~~~~~ CLICK HERE: Articles & information for abuse victims - Updated Daily "Some women can fake an orgasm. But some men can fake an entire relationship!" - Sharon Stone
Jul 28 - 6PM
Barbara (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Wolves in Sheep's Clothing

READ TOP POST ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Articles & information for abuse victims - Updated Daily Online Coaching for Victims of Narcissists/ Psychopaths
Jun 20 - 11AM
Carolyn
Carolyn's picture

this is great information

this is great information for the job,home, everywhere. I have a business partner who uses all of these tactics. I am aware but now I can put a label to the different techniques he uses. He has 3 sons who have disastrous relationships, can't keep jobs, and are very abusive to women so they can't keep girlfriends, these boys are handsome, bi-lingual, educated, and there is no reason why they can't do well in life- unless there is a genetic problem but not all 3-I have often wondered if this partner of mine hasn't somehow programmed his sons to fail so that they aren't in competition with him. He is very handsome and does a great job and his services are in demand. He is a contractor and grows in reputation daily. Yet his manipulation, control, and problematic behavior in his personal life is energy draining and he is divorced once and working on the next. I am too tough for him and I am quick to go to business lawyers and flash copies of my problems with him to the Board of Directors. he has given up on me I am too big of problem back. I make money with him, keep my distance, and don't have anything to do with his family life anymore. I don't accept invitations or get friendly after some abuse from his adult sons. Narcissists are notoriously jealous of their children and I think he has these three walking off a cliff. they can't succeed at anything. I got one a great job where he was well liked and after some subtle hints from the father he walked off the job. He is now unemployed and an object of ridicule by the father. Another son was put into contact with a terrific gal in his field and he was so fresh with her she wouldn't do business with him. the father seemed pleased. I think women married to narcissists need to understand that the narcissist will do everything to keep their children from suceeding. There should be some information that explains the dynamics so that women can tell their children to disregard the information that 'daddy' gives them that makes them self-destructive. Maybe a pamphlet "Tell Daddy I am a Loser-then go out and Win." In the case of children of narcissists distance and no contact is a good idea.
Jan 15 - 4AM (Reply to #9)
Klarity Belle
Klarity Belle's picture

You got it Carolyn

I couldn't agree more about what you say about the way N father's treat their children. I have two beautiful daughters with an N co-parent and he just undoes every bit of confidence they build and I try to nurture in them. Luckily they are girls (no offence guys) and I am getting clued up enough to help them wise up to him too. Its so sad watching the process of my two lovely girls who ar starting to see who their daddy really is. Even better they are far better than me at whipping his sorry ass! At the moment both are refusing to see him, though eldest goes when she wants to. They are holding the cards now and guess what, he's turned into nice, meek and mild daddy!!! My job until they are old enough to really break free themselves is to help them learn how to always have a full hand of cards where he is concerned. Thanks for your insights Carolyn and sorry to hear you have to work with such a putz! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "The deeper that sadness carves into your being, the more joy you can contain." ~ Kahlil Gibran http://www.storyofmylife.com/KLARITY4

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The deeper that sadness carves into your being, the more joy you can contain." ~ Kahlil Gibran

"That which we do not confront in ourselves we meet as fate" ~ Carl Jung

http://www.storyofmylife.com/KLARITY4

Jun 18 - 8PM
Barbara (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

wolves in sheep's clothing

Narcs and their modus operandi ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Free articles & information for abuse victims: http://abusesanctuary.blogspot.com Effective Coaching for Victims of Pathologicals http://one2one4victims.webs.com/
Mar 24 - 5PM
Barbara (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

cassiemay

I'm afraid that the law may be working against me Now now - you are doing it again! YOUR attorney works for YOU. YOU should be bringing this up to him. He may be taking the 'easy way out' which a lot of them do. This is very much an AT FAULT divorce. HIS fault. And this needs to be PART OF THE PUBLIC RECORD!! Don't ask - demand your attorney bring these things into play - it's YOUR DIME. Read up on divorce: http://www.divorcenet.com/ At-Fault makes it very easy on the attorney but does you NO GOOD by giving that thing you were married to a free-pass. One of these places can help you navigate SSDI - get them involved from the BEGINNING and let them talk & walk you through it: These guys would be my first pick to call: http://www.binderandbinder.com/contact-binder-and-binder.html Let me know how it goes and start being more pro-active for YOURSELF. You can do it!
Mar 24 - 2PM
Barbara (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

cassiemay

cassiemay I am very glad this article helped up. Now... I am concerned about you. Let me explain why: I totally know how being with a Narc can make you negative & down on yourself. But you are in a survival fight right now. Comments (paraphrasing) like you "DOUBT" you "can get Social Security" or your actions will "PROBABLY come back to bite you in court." First off, SSDI does deny valid claims at least 2x because they run everything through a computer. I would be happy to give you attorney information for a disability (which takes ZERO money up front and doesn't get paid until you get your award) so there's no harm in trying. Second, your actions are the result of SEVERE PTSD caused by this man. You needed answers because of what HIS behavior did to you. And you know the behaviors were out of your norm but at the time THIS IS WHAT HE DID TO YOUR MIND! Your lawyer should be fighting for you and saying these things. Anyone who drives someone to do these things (been there myself) is GUILTY OF A SERIOUS CRIME. This is all because of HIM. Please stop beating up on yourself. Even using negative language about yourself and your behaviors is not good for your state of mind. These guys make us feel like we are nothing. You are NOT nothing.
Mar 24 - 2PM (Reply to #5)
cassiemay
cassiemay's picture

Barbara thanks....

I so appreciate your support and advice. I guess I would be willing to try a social security disability claim. I know you gave previous links to this, but if you could again I would appreciate it. Do you think I should just go straight to one of the attorneys who specialize in this area? Or should I try the first 2 routes discussed by someone before? In the state where I live there is "no fault" divorce. So....I'm not sure how bringing up his past affairs, the effect on me emotionally or physically has any relevance in the court's eyes or determination. I will discuss this with my attorneys, for sure. Any other insights are greatly appreciated. The state I live in is very much a 50/50 state and so I'm afraid that the law may be working against me. I think I have a good attorney, but he has said nothing about these other issues. Thanks so much everyone. CM
Mar 24 - 1PM
cassiemay
cassiemay's picture

article

Barbara, Thanks for the post. This was very useful to me in that it simply reminds me of all the tactics that have been used against me. On some level I already know it, but it is always helpful to see it in black and white and realize that you ARE NOT MAKING THIS UP IN YOUR OWN HEAD. Which, of course, is exactly what "they" want you to believe. My STBX is expert in the passive-aggressive behaviors. I only hope that the court/judge will see this as the record of his behavior during our 2 and 1/2 yrs of separation. It may be supposedly "passive", but it is aggression nonetheless and with just as hurtful consequences. I, like many, sometimes wish he had just beaten me instead, so I would have the physical "evidence" of abuse. Passive-aggressiveness is much more subtle and harder to convince onself or others that it is happening. I particularly liked the section on not answering a direct question with a direct response. This is definitely "crazy-making". Or otherwise "witholding information". As a victim I felt powerless to make sense of what was really going on. I was left to second-guess myself constantly. "Maybe I really am too suspicious. Maybe I am making too much of this. Maybe I AM the crazy one. Look how confident and cool he is. Why am I the one who's so upset?" It is not only abusive it is soul murder, to make another doubt themselves so much for one own's benefit. So....as a potential warning that may be helpful to others: try, try, try, NOT to react to this tactic. I, (of course) :-) did. I hacked email, I came to the house unannounced, I snooped. I set myself up to actually LOOK like yes, she IS the crazy one. HE didn't "do" anything, did he? No, he was calm, cool, and CALCULATED. And I took the bait. I hope someone can learn from this because my actions are likely to come back to haunt me in court. CM
Aug 28 - 5PM (Reply to #2)
Barbara (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

the narcissist's M.O.

READ ENTIRE TOP POST ~~~~~~~~~~~~ CLICK HERE: Articles & information for Narc Victims - Updated Daily "As soon as you feel that crazy sense of walking on eggshells, fending off N-rage, stop. Walk away." - Dr. M. B