Was Any of it Real?

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#1 Nov 28 - 2AM
faith_
faith_'s picture

Was Any of it Real?

Did I imagine the connection and what tender moments there were? I mean I get the whole being lonely WITH them thing. I truly was. I felt like I never really 'had' him. I felt like the relationship never grew, never developed, even after years. It's like how could I have been in something so stunted, yet be so constantly emotionally involved in it, every second...constantly aware of what's going on with us. Yet never get anywhere.

I get that. But, for all of the hard time I'm having now.. For all of the things I see that I have to train my brain not to remember him by...just gloss over it in my mind, and fool myself that I don't care, and that I don't feel like crying...it's hard. I live in this space between learning about pds, trying to live normally (not so deeply, or obsessing, etc), and most of all, trying to feel like myself, in between these two things. But today, I just missed him. I usually don't when reading here, and I'm sure the more I start reading again, the less I will. It just feels like I'm really FEELING when I miss him, and I miss that. Maybe it's all an illusion, but was any of it real? I mean, the song albums he made for me with songs that I can't even be in the same room as when they're playing cuz it gets me from zero to emotional mess in two seconds. All the time we spent together, all the plans he made, he was a part of my everyday life, and I was a part of his, with family and such.

How can he not miss me? Was he lying the whole entire time? The affection and endearing parts, and treating me like I'm precious in some few moments that I remember? How can it all be a lie? Him doing things for me that I didn't ask for, special things, I really thought he cared, and that that's where it was coming from. That's part of why I loved him so much. Cuz we connected in every way I didn't even know I could hope for, and I thought he really cared.

It usually helps to hear it was all a lie (and I get into the screw him mindset)...yet seeing what an emotional mess I am, and trying to comprehend that none of it was real, makes me feel even more alone and messed up than I already do. How did something that was not even real, destroy me. Gosh, it's so painful. And I know I'm not really making sense. I get this isn't a linear process, but really, I feel like I'm all over the place. I was doing good with trying not to 'feel', until earlier today. Basically, learning about pds, I read about how it's 'fake,' an act... yet how can I be mourning something fake, so deeply.

Dec 1 - 12AM
tresor2
tresor2's picture

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

NO, NO, NO. None of anything is real with a narc. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Nov 30 - 8AM
empath
empath's picture

physical empathy

Finally figured out how to find stuff in the archives here! Here's the link you requested, Faith: http://www.lisaescott.com/forum/2011/11/07/sex-not-love-narc Stay the course. It gets better, then it gets confusing, then it gets better again. :-)
Nov 29 - 5AM
Gaia
Gaia's picture

also

during his last attempted D&D, I was crying painfully like a little broken girl, because It all hit me and I knew what he was doing (again), breaking my heart, throwing me away like garbage..so I was emotinally breaking down (again)..he said " I want to speak to the adult, not the child please" FUCK YOU ASSHOLE! Fuck you for telling me that I couldnt be the broken child, that child needs a hug, needs to be heard, needs to be loved. FUCK YOU!( I wish I could of said that to him, instead..I just apologized like an idiot!) I am sorry for the language everyone, this by far is the most angriest memory of mine. How DARE him, tell me to quiet my inner child, when he has tortured , provolked, and discarded her so much to that extent. I hate who he is.
Nov 29 - 11PM (Reply to #41)
faith_
faith_'s picture

it's horrible that anyone can

it's horrible that anyone can treat anybody like this, ever. And here's to never letting them have anything to do with us ever again. Here's to the power never being in the hands of a cruel destructive disordered person ever again. It's sick what they have done, Savegaia (these mind games and playing just to see how far they can make u fall), and there's no excuse for it. It's like evil for evil's sake.
Nov 29 - 2AM
meik11
meik11's picture

You don't sound crazy at

You don't sound crazy at all... In fact you said everything I am feeling. I keep having flashes of us in those moments that made me love him in the first place and cannot believe it was an act. How can you fake that?... How can the I love you's & I miss you's & late night cuddling & gazing in my eyes over dinner be fake? I just cannot wrap my mind around it, its sickening. I don't know which part is worse, missing him or knowing he walked away from me and is absolutely fine with not seeing or talking to me...
Nov 29 - 2AM
Journey
Journey's picture

Hi Faith, I feel your

Hi Faith, I feel your experience and have been where you are now. It is a very sad place. Our feelings are real and always were. It is their disorder that dictates what they do and why they do it. That they can discard and move on is unnatural, but it is part of their sickness. For us, accepting that life with our narc could never be happy or good for us in a long lasting way, no matter how much promise they showed or how close we felt we were, is a heavy door we must close behind us. It is difficult and hurts like hell, but it is through this door that our pain begins to lighten and we can walk forward into our healing stronger with our knowledge that it is HIS problem that he can't empathize or feel deep bonds with others - not ours. Narcs will not be a lasting soul mate to any one, not in the sense of maintaining closeness and nurturing a loving relationship - no matter how good the supply! Don't even go there regarding the OW. A narc will use the next and the next after that, regardless of how well they suit their agenda, or how long they spend together, they will eventually disconnect the 'fake' connection between them and they'll be discarded too. It is WHAT they do and they do it because they are disordered. Please don't ever consider that you don't deserve to mourn, every moment we were with them, we lived our emotions and there is nothing fake about what WE felt, or what we feel now. Their discard was an emotional death, knowing they can never return as who we thought they were helps a little, to let them go. The sadness will lessen with time as it is released... cry if you feel like crying, it will help remove the toxicity of the pain and there will grow space for new emotions to take it's place. ((hugs))

Journey on...

Dec 1 - 9AM (Reply to #38)
empath
empath's picture

Faith

Journey speaks the truth. Narcs are disordered. Accepting that and abandoning all hope that there could ever be anything "normal" with them allows the cognitive dissonance to dissolve so you can focus on healing yourself and moving forward. This is such a painful stage to pass through, yet you will. Stay strong and stay NC. :-)
Nov 30 - 12AM (Reply to #37)
faith_
faith_'s picture

Thank you, Journey. This

Thank you, Journey. This helps, huggs.
Nov 28 - 8PM
Susan32
Susan32's picture

MY feelings were real

During the final D&D, one of my friends taunted me (before I FINALLY got gritty&real about what actually happened, I had really sugar-coated it for her) with "the relationship was all in your head!" I remember bawling over the phone "I want to be in a REAL relationship!" I told her MY feelings were REAL. I did not deny them then, I will not deny them now. I KNOW what I felt. When my friend finally understood what happened-and *I* had to get honest about my circumstances-she said that the ex-Psych prof had robbed me of a teacher. My relationship with him never got romantic/sexual... I cannot call him an ex-boyfriend, because it never got that far. It didn't even get as far as casual dating. Or a one night stand. The ex-P saw teaching merely as playing a role, as an act. He said that after the final D&D. Maybe it was because I was being bland&emotionless with him, as clinical as a therapist. He even fessed up to how he had acted like he needed help, that all he had done for 4 years as my professor was play pretend. He assumed my feelings were as shallow as his... so I think that's why in some ways he found my suffering during the final D&D as an act.. and the shock of his life. There were times he had accused me of being a Narc;I think he WANTED a Narc to be his companion. His wife might be a Narc;I don't know. I won't judge her. At one point during the final D&D, he said with a smarmy smile "You're a good actress." He thought my whole student-falls-in-love-with-teacher-and-confesses-it was simply me putting on the act of my life. He'd tell me that my feelings for him were a diversion from my real life, that I was stressing out about the future, that there were all these positive things in my life that didn't involve him. Oh, and that I was supposed to emotionally distance myself from him&flick off my feelings like a switch. I don't mind being rejected with "I'm not interested" or "I found someone else." Romantic rejection is a normal, natural thing. But in my case, what I got the ex-P were cold commands to be indifferent to him, a harsh judging of MY feelings. It was painful. It's one thing if a hot guy says "I don't have feelings for you", or even "I prefer other men"-okay, that's being honest, but "Don't have feelings for me!" or "don't have feelings!" No wonder D&Ds are numbing.
Nov 29 - 11PM (Reply to #33)
faith_
faith_'s picture

Yes, there's no validation.

Yes, there's no validation. That's one of the hardest parts, I think. Even hoovering is supposedly about 'his' pain and how he feels and how much he misses me and how lost he is, etc. In this way, I can see how it wasn't about my needs. So I can see how the special things he did for me are looked at as manipulation to 'get' me for as long as and as much as he wanted me. Truly, even though he fooled me in a lot of ways, I think for most of the time I felt that there wasn't genuine empathy from him. And how can you be validated when there isn't empathy.
Nov 30 - 7PM (Reply to #34)
Susan32
Susan32's picture

They don't know how they feel!

That's the thing. When my 2 year old nephew falls down, sometimes he bawls, and sometimes he laughs. My sister has to discern whether he's hurt or not. A toddler doesn't know how he feels. When I'm iChatting with my sister, my little nephew will switch from applesauce, to cottage cheese, to mac&cheese. He doesn't know what he wants. The ex-Psych (as in psychopath, he doesn't teach psychology, but thinks he's some expert on it) prof was like a toddler that way. He didn't know how HE felt. That's kinda worse than a lack of empathy. It was all about him... yet he didn't know himself. During the final D&D, when I asked the ex-P what HE felt, he'd go blank on me. I'd ask him why he was angry at me, he'd deny being angry, only sigh about how he was disappointed. I tried to get him to talk about HIS feelings. Now, most Ns/Ps put on the Happy Act with their new partners as a way of D&Ding the previous one. In my case, the ex-P knew that if he put on the happy act with his girlfriend, I would've gotten epic closure. He never spoke of his girlfriend as the love of his life. He coldly referred to her as "Miss G--", rather than by her first name. She was LIVING WITH HIM... and a year later, she would have has kids&be married to him. Yet he spoke so coldly of her, no physical affection. If he had rested his head in her lap, looking up into her eyes with a smile, I would've hurt, I KNOW it would've stung... yet it would be closure. The ex-P didn't know his own feelings. When he cut himself in the lab, it was very deep, he didn't have the normal reaction. He didn't act startled or cry out in my pain. (My former Narc boss would've cussed like a sailor) He simply contemplated his wound. His lecture about how St. Augustine was happy&Wittgenstein was unhappy, was so robotic. His "I'm a happy man" was unconvincing. He lacked empathy for MY feelings because he didn't have feelings of his very own. HIS "feelings" were an act, or just negative. Bigger problem than lack of empathy, IMHO.
Nov 30 - 8PM (Reply to #35)
faith_
faith_'s picture

I also felt his feelings

I also felt his feelings changed. Like I couldn't count on them from one day to the next. And of course, when speaking up, the 'change' would be traced back by him to an action or lack of mine in the relationship, that supposedly inspired this shift in him.
Nov 28 - 6PM
gratefuljen
gratefuljen's picture

I love reading post from newbies,

Girl friend, I feel your pain. It takes a long time to wrap your brain and your heart, how empty and calculated the p/n really is. YES IT WAS ALL A LIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They are predatory, they hunt loving and caring, hard working women to take care of them. Then they D & D, until we say NO FUCKING MORE! He will come back to see what he can drain from you!!!! It's so sick, so perverted, it took a long time for me to realize that these animals are truly evil creatures. It's no bull shit. What you are experiencing is cognitive dissonance. The brain and the heart are at odd. You know in you brain but your heart does not want to believe it. It's painful, really painful, but the sooner you accept their soul sickness, their conscienceless existence, the sooner you will be out of it. I promise if you will do the work, you will read posts from newcomers and will say, wow I remember feeling like that. Love, Jen
Nov 28 - 5PM
onwithmylife
onwithmylife's picture

Faith

I am close to 3 years out and when i get REAL, none of it was real in the true sense of love, it was all a fake act on his part and real for ME, look at it this way, he cannot be real even to himself, how can he be real to another person, after all we were only objects to them not real flesh and blood with our own personalities, feelings, wants, needs. it is sad and gut wrenching........
Nov 28 - 6PM (Reply to #28)
faith_
faith_'s picture

"after all we were only

"after all we were only objects to them not real flesh and blood with our own personalities, feelings, wants, needs." It's confusing because they obviously recognize and study our "own personalities, feelings, wants, needs" in order to manipulate us so masterfully to make me feel like he's my subdued soul-mate (not in a crazy romantic dreamy way like in the movies, but in a real-life way, where my soul was gradually connected to what I thought was his soul..like he was so "my people", like gradual family feel, like he was home to me in every way...). So how can they study us and recognize that we have our own wants and needs, yet also be the same people that totally couldn't care less about those needs or feelngs, and try to banish them like they're a disease (and hence, we end up feeling so disconnected from ourselves) ...like tell me my feeling scared of him is "bullshit" and my feeling hurt by him is my "opinion." Do these people know something's off with them? Do they know they have been the opposite of REAL? Do they know they're FAKE? (while telling me i'm not loving enough, or he's not sure what kind of marriage partner I'd be) Cuz seriously, I often thought the only person he SEES is himself, and the only pain (is that the right word) he feels is his own, and indulging it to the max...like the "garden of resentment" Lundy Bancroft talks about. Totally nursing and nurturing his resentments. He was so passionate about the disgust and contempt he showed towards me about a 'wrong' I'd done, and ironically, these were times when I was before him, totally vulnerable about a painful thing I'd just discovered that he'd done.
Nov 28 - 7PM (Reply to #29)
onwithmylife
onwithmylife's picture

Faith

Perhaps it starts with your awareness and realization that your feelings and the narcs feelings are not the same, we operate on a different plane than the narcissists do, they are like 'idiot savants', people who do one thing and are experts at that one thing, your feelings are real,genuine to the human race, their feelings are to extract something from you, the only real feelings they have are of anger, rage, jealousy, envy, greed, all the horrible emotions of the human race.My narc knew something was not right with him, as he told me at one point that he needed to live by himself and I needed to find another man. I do think in the deep recess of their consciousness they knew they are fucked up, but it is a personality disordered and ingrained in the very fiber of who they are, not subject to medication and any deep therapy would require them to admit they are not right, something that would require an act of GOD an, epiphany from the heavens, it would more than likely never happen. Read all you can from books, the internet on this disorder, you will become a change person, we all have.............As his own brother said to me 'narc thinks he is right and everyone else is crazy,' it is their thought perception which is not normal, but it is THEIR world, hope some of this makes sense to you, it takes along time to wrap it all around your head, it sure did for me but then I stayed 15 years trying to make it work out...........they study people real well, as they are empty shells inside, it is all they have....
Nov 29 - 11PM (Reply to #30)
faith_
faith_'s picture

This does make sense, thank

This does make sense, thank you...of them knowing something is wrong w/ them, but you're so right that the disorder is so deeply ingrained, beyond medication as you said, as well as beyond anything they might SAY about themselves having major problems. So deep that this person who says they have issues, also operates from a place that there's nothing wrong w/ them. It's like you can't pinpoint it (oh but he seemed so remorseful, oh but e SAID he's a mess, or said that how he treated me was wrong), but the disorder wins and is what's always played out.
Nov 28 - 2PM
Hermes
Hermes's picture

Faith

The pain can be very searing, Faith. I know. The dismal reply to your question is: no it was not real. Look, someone who has NPD objectifies the "other", so you are not a real person to them. In fact he was not really lying either, in the sense we would understand that word. For the NPD all those facets you mention are for them a "normal" personality. They simply cannot see "outside". What you did experience was the classical idealization/devaluation phase. Just a suggestion: consider throwing out all those CDs and any other items which bring those painful memories to the surface. It is the healthiest thing you can do. Remember, you are NOT destroyed (yeh, we all felt like that at first), the shock is dreadful, the disbelief is even harder to deal with. You see a sane normal person (you) cannot simply have a relationship with someone who is not really sane, not really "there". It doesn't lessen the feelings of grief, and indeed what is called "complicated grief", or "chronic grief". It is vitally important not to get stuck in those grieving stages, and to seek every help you can get. Take care Hermes
Nov 28 - 2PM
Hunter
Hunter's picture

Well.. At least it was real

Well.. At least it was real for you.. Never be down because you feel.. Hunter
Nov 28 - 8PM (Reply to #25)
TNR1
TNR1's picture

Agreed....it is important to

Agreed....it is important to acknowledge our reality and appreciate it. Love is something the N will never truly know...it is why they can move so easily from one source to another...but we are able to love with all our hearts and being able to love is not something we should ever feel ashamed about. The issue is that our love was not able to be truly returned and now we have the opportunity to find someone who can appreciate the love we are willing to give and return it back to us in spades. That is what I'm looking most forward to....finding someone who can give that love back.
Nov 28 - 5AM
EiPuff (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

right there with you, kid

Exactly my issue too - tender, soul-searching moments, loving embraces, him looking deeply into my eyes with love as he made love to me, holding me and telling me how conflicted he was because he finds it hard to be intimate and it bothers him on a lot of levels that he's close to me and tells me what's on his mind - tender reassurances that he loves me but needs to go away from time to time...did this man really fake that? My head is spinning - I wonder if he is only "part narcissist" (on his mothers' side, haha)and can feel these things but still has automatic narcissistic responses to relationship issues. I read all this and see him and his behavior in every post but still cannot believe he felt nothing at all for me. There HAS to be exceptions or variations on levels of narcissism, I can't believe they can all be the same when every human being is different. Faith - I know, I feel ok, empowered and then I fall apart, have to walk outside of work just to weep with gut-wrenching, heart ripping pain in my car. It fluctuates throughout the day and 24/7 I am analyzing this to the point that I can't take it anymore and want my brain back so I can focus on my job. Sending you a hug- so sorry because I KNOW how you feel, I feel like I can't take the pain either. Maybe at least it will console us to know we are not alone?
Nov 28 - 4AM
BlueMist
BlueMist's picture

CD?!

Faith, I know how you feel. We all do. But keep it simple. What's the point on thinking so much about the past or about him? Does it matter if he felt something, anything? Where is he NOW? If he would have felt something for you, he wouldn't have let you go, not even for a minute. He wouldn't be with somebody else now. And if you ask yourself, ''WHAT IF he feels remorse and thinks about me'' just like you do now, WHO CARES? He chose . He didn't choose you. He should live with that. Anyway, he's probably being baby-sit right now, so don't worry for him. In the end, they are sick, if you try to make sense you will get sick too. And show no compassion for his sickness. He didn't feel any compassion when he crushed your soul. He knew EXACTLY what he was doing. Last but not least, think about the opportunity cost. Did you ever thought that maybe somebody nice, somebody funny, self-made and good looking may be looking for somebody like you? Behind everything that happens in our lives which we may perceive as bad,there is a good. You cannot see it, you cannot feel it, but it is there. 6 weeks NC, I am pretty good. Hugs,
Nov 28 - 4PM (Reply to #18)
faith_
faith_'s picture

"Where is he NOW? If he would

"Where is he NOW? If he would have felt something for you, he wouldn't have let you go, not even for a minute. He wouldn't be with somebody else now." that's the thing. What made it worth it for him to put so much energy into getting me back all those times before...did he feel something during THOSE times? According to what I read, it was never about me, so those times he did let me go, yet kept coming back with declarations of love, it still wasn't about me. Yet I couldn't help thinking, it WAS about his love for me. Unique to me. So did he finally meet his real soul-mate in her? Or just a new unsuspecting female supply to replay the process with. "He didn't feel any compassion when he crushed your soul. He knew EXACTLY what he was doing." again, inhuman. I'll never understand this. It's when you add the intentionality of it, that it becomes evil.
Nov 28 - 5PM (Reply to #19)
anquilla
anquilla's picture

I think we share a similar

I think we share a similar story and I feel like I am in a similar situation to you. I wonder the same things. About whether it was ever real with me. But I guess if it was, would he be with HER? No he wouldn't. I've spoken to the OW enough times to work out that she is a pretty good supply for him. He feels 'equal to her'. With me he thinks I am superior. I think the truth is, over the years, I have learnt to speak up to him and tell him he's wrong when he is. The OW is not like that. She is much more submissive. Maybe its her personality, maybe its because she is still new. Who knows? What is certain is that she has become a better supply. Maybe she is his soulmate, time will tell. And yes, he knows exactly what hes doing. He engineers the whole situation from day one.
Nov 28 - 7PM (Reply to #20)
faith_
faith_'s picture

well I wish I was never

well I wish I was never considered "good supply" for him, so that I'd never have to feel devalued. I HATE THAT SHE IS considered BETTER supply for him. Not because I want to be abused by him, but because I can't help but feel stepped on and like the biggest slap in the face that I couldn't be more unimportant. AND that I was used as a stupid tool by him to bring both of them closer together, with his pity stories to her of how I'm high-maintenance and don't let him have his friends, etc. And her seeing how after being with me for years and hoovering me, he gradually weaned himself off of me and actually chose her. Even though she didn't even want something serious with him. What a thrill for her, to know how important she is to him, so much more important than the girl of so many years that he was so depressed about before...and HIM knowing how he played me and 'won' in the end. Pretty much came at me from every which way emotionally, got me back whenever he wanted after trying hard enough, long enough and persistently enough. Just to 'win' I guess.
Nov 28 - 7PM (Reply to #21)
anquilla
anquilla's picture

Your situation is just like

Your situation is just like mine. Many years I've shared with this guy, and ultimately he began his relationship with the OW online when he was pursuing me after HE broke up with me.His relationship began on lies with her. What he told me about her was all lies too, just so I come back to him. Now he tells me she is better suited to him and everything. But I start to think what does better suited mean ? He explained that it means she fulfills his inner needs better than I can. It hurts, because I remember all the good times we shared and I think, wow you were lying to me the whole time. I did get jealous of her I have to admit. Sometimes I do long for a day to come when he wants me back and I can just sit there and ignore the calls without feeling a sudden jump in my heart. I want that day to come. Yep these narcs have a tendency to go for the ''good supply'' at 100 miles per hour when they need to get her back. In my situation I was it for a good 6-7 years. When he used to chase me I would see it as a sign of his ''affections'' (if i can even call it that), but in reality its not. Its just the way they are. They need that supply. Like many others have said on this forum, it has nothing to do with you. Its him. The last thing you should do is beat yourself up over it. I know how hard it is to NOT do that. I beat myself up over it every few days. Please believe that there is light at the end of the tunnel. There has to be. It is just a matter of time.
Nov 28 - 9PM (Reply to #22)
Winter
Winter's picture

Anquilla

"Better suited" means he is a narc who objectifies people around him. Is it about trousers? I am so sorry you had to listen to this nonsense. Of course, there is always someone who fulfills our needs better. These needs also change over time. Now what? You are not responsible for his twisted perception of what the relationship should be. She (the OW) should be jealous of you, not the opposite. You got rid of a narc who has no clue what is a true relationship all about. Love Winter
Nov 28 - 3AM
freaked
freaked's picture

what enrages me most is that

what enrages me most is that marriage to narc killed all other possibilities. The next guy might have been a loving human..who would have loved me and kid.. whereas..the narc just screwed up my life beyond repair. Now it IS too late for me to scout for new partners...and is rather an unpalatable idea too..after all..at my age I cannot expect to find a virgin guy. WTF is what echoes on an on in my head till i am ready to explode. I wish there was some international tribunal which could PUNISH these offenders. I have lost faith in life. Now on, at best I can hope to tranquilize my brain with prayer and meditation...but will never have known how it would feel to be genuinely loved by a genuine husband. I think we should be classified as War Victims. no less. what happened in our life was a calamity which we had no clue was coming.
Nov 28 - 9PM (Reply to #16)
Winter
Winter's picture

Dear Freaked

I disagree with you. It is not late, it is never late. Who said it is late? Who defines the age limit? I know many examples of people who met each other when they were over 50, even 60 and they are very happy together. It really is in your mind. Maybe you can challenge this belief? I wish you would. You are such a nice and beautiful person! I am sure you are a dream of many men out there. So, please, don't close this door for you. Love Winter
Nov 28 - 4PM (Reply to #15)
faith_
faith_'s picture

freaked, I hear everything

freaked, I hear everything you're saying. It is not too late and you CAN experience the love you want, it is very possible. I know when you're in the situation it's hard, I get down on myself with the anger, that he took everything I have on the inside away from me, that I can never be whole and experience the real version of the love I so thought I had with him...it's so easy to get stuck there. But if these people ARE a lie, it's better they're gone, and every day is chance for us to find and experience the real thing for ourselves, not through a twisted person's sick manipulation. And everything you have in you, you have a lot to give, so remember that, and how valuable you are. I hear you with the call for justice too. In matters of the heart and mind, these things can be sooo much more life-altering and more at stake when crossing paths with such a person, the impact they leave...and in the biggest understatement, it's just not fair.