They literally don't get or feel It!!

20 posts / 0 new

#1 Nov 14 - 12PM

ifinallygotit

They literally don't get or feel It!!

One time I discovered something in his house that hurt me and indicated cheating.. He got very upset when I busted him, angry, scared and completely shut down instead of apologizing. I had left something there and asked for it back and he handed me another woman's clothing (!!!) indicating he had had a an affair - he said it was many years old and he had forgotten it in the drawer and that he was faithful to me. This might be true because the thing I wanted back was like 4 years at his house but....He went stone cold that morning and his eyes glazed over and he was looking at me so angrily (we had just had an amazing dinner date and wonderful romantic evening together the night before).

I said to him, "put yourself in my shoes and imagine how you would feel if you found men's clothes at my house? "I said," how would you feel?". He acted infantile and had a fit and just kept repeating whining "I don't know, I don't know!". And that is the truth! They really are not capable of imagining how we might feel when they devastate us...

He did like to keep momentos of women - weird. When I left something by mistake there, he rarely offered to return it - Maybe I was never his GF (though my stuff was in his bathroom for years and never got vibe of other women in house and we went together for many years). Maybe he could not remember which women things belonged to?? I hope it was not that bad!
I think in his mind I was his GF and the rest was fun at the bars without the wifey cramping his style...
It is truly sickening to think none of the years of love meant anything - I also think now I forced him to try to have a normal R - he never really wanted it though he enjoyed me.

#2 Nov 14 - 7PM

ifinallygotit

I think this is the hardest part of the disorder to process

In a way you can't hate someone who does not have a clue or any cognitive ability to have insight or compassion - it is a sad defect but the fact is, mine is happy with his M.O. So be it ! He will be the all mighty famous guy screwing new bar ladies til he drops - he is mid-50's now. Are you sure he just ddn't want me? he says he wants no GF...he still sends texts like "how is the weather?" after dismantling my life.... I am ok just totally unable to get interested in a healthy R with normal guy...every day I am away from our city I feel better...

#3 Nov 14 - 7PM (Reply to #18)

empath

I think they know how effed up they are

I read somewhere that therapy can actually make them worse, because of the double task of having to first get through their "False Self" which has built-in defense mechanisms that are set on atuomtic, and keep them from ever facing their "True Self", which is the seat of their self-loathing. I believe, from my experience, that they know deep down that they are vile and miserable creatures, yet when faced with carrying on the way they do versus actually working towards being better people...they just don't see the need...because their False Self has them convinced its not them, its everyone else. You are dealing with a stunted personality with the emotional intelligence and maturity of a young child. They know they are hopeless, and so they just keep doing what they do and wreaking havoc. They never know love, they never feel joy, and they don't age well. At the end of the day, what's left to understand? Bottom line is they are NOT going to change and its not just because of the pathology of the disorder, it is also because they do not want to, they don't have a compelling reason to see themselves as the common denominator in the chaos that surrounds them. So what can you do except forget trying to understand them, and just understand yourself better so you don't let another N bamboozle his way last your rdar ever again.

#4 Nov 14 - 8PM (Reply to #19)

ifinallygotit

No to be grudge him but

He is aging very well - has not had the normal stresses of life - he looks good and is a total stud at 55 with no physical problems...very good genes...women love him (except those who got close and were abandoned - I know of 2 others abandoned and there are more - none speak to him). He looks and acts like a big kid - he is massively popular - he will never be without NS

#5 Nov 14 - 2PM

bumblebee

Couple of reasons

Firstly, I agree - if I ever left something (other than my cell phone/purse/sunglasses... he kept it. Once I left my nightgown and another time a ring. The ring just disappeared - he denied ever seeing it at his place, but I am 100% sure I left it on a side table. The nightgown he kept and I think he did it for two reasons: 1) he would always have a reason to see me and get the chance to hook me again. 2) we are conquests. keeping momentos allows them to remember those conquests and puff up their ego on their own. Similar to you, though, I had a toothbrush and a couple of things in his bathroom - part of me is grossed out thinking how many other women may of thought it was "their" toothbrush, but I don't like to think about that. I think he probably has stuff from other women - although I have to say, I never saw any of it and I had been through most of his condo, so I'm not sure. One thing that more bewildered me more than anything was that the night I caught him cheating - found a thong on the floor - I asked for my nightgown back (10 months after I initially left it there) - he pulled it right out of his F-ing drawer and gave it to me. It was sitting right on top. So weird... Kind of as an aside to this question or comment though - I'm curious to know people's thoughts because I can figure this part out. I left my nightgown at his place the day before Thanksgiving. I was new in the devaluation stage of the relationship. He went MIA for a week - I heard nothing from him. And then he called me up and broke up with me saying, "I just can't give you what you need. You deserve better." My question is why? As I type this after I've learned what I have about this disorder, it was probably another manipulation technique because things had been going pretty well at the time and I felt like it was out of the blue. But I guess I kind of wonder if part of it had to do with the nightgown...like that was a trigger for him. I don't know... Sorry, long response!

#6 Nov 14 - 12PM

Used

I disagree with this, they

I disagree with this, they are well aware of what they are doing...One day exn and i were out for the day, it was a hot sunny day by the time we got back to my home, he was sweating profusly ,he is big[so was myexnh], I went and got a brand new t shirt from the cupboard[i wear then on my own at home,they are oversized], i said have that, it will help you can cool down...he threw it back at me and said thanks but NO THANKS, I am not fxxking wearing you exhs t shirt...i explained it wasent myexhs, but mine....he said don't insult me even more by lying.....then went on to say, how an ex of his had done the same once, she offered him a shirt of her exhs? and he walked out on her.....if they dont feel anything, why would they even care who something belong to.... its not that they don't feel it, its b/c they don't care if we feel it or not......he went on about that friggen t shirt for months.....

#7 Nov 14 - 3PM (Reply to #15)

Deidre40

used

They don’t care about OUR feelings. But, they most certainly care about their own. ;+) I also think they look for reasons/things to be mad at others, over. Perhaps, that was the most jarring quality of all the narcs I was with—the uncanny resemblance to my childhood, riddled with trying to please the unpleaseable. The family member who emotionally/verbally abused me, used to literally LOOK for reasons to punish me, send me to my room, be angry with me. Likewise, I can’t help but think used, that the shirt incident was so he could hold it against you, whenever he felt like it. They’re all so much the same, it’s frightening. (My ex accused me of lying a lot too…projection? Lol)

#8 Nov 14 - 2PM (Reply to #2)

Winter

Used

I think they do not have the ability to put themselves in other people shoes. They are very vulnerable and sensitive, but only when it is about them. It seems to me that they literally cannot “feel” how the other person would feel. For us “normal” people, who have empathy, it is automatic and effortless. For them it does not come naturally and they need to make a huge intellectual effort in order to “get” it. But, again, after they did this effort they will understand, but not “feel” it. Maybe it would not even come to the mind to the exN, you were (unfortunately) involved with, to make an analogy and remember how he did feel in the case if the role were switched...

#9 Nov 14 - 4PM (Reply to #14)

darling.girl

A narc's "sensitivity"

The exN actually told me that he didn't feel other people's hurt, and that he learned to give the socially acceptable responses. He gave as an example soothing one of his kids after they physically hurt themselves. Odd that I didn't do a double take when he told me this. At the time, he was coming across as all kind, generous,loving and caring (seduction/honeymoon phase). The mental image he presented didn't fit with what I was experiencing. Now, I've learned that their senstivity is intrapersonal (within themselves about themselves) and NOT interpersonal (between them and others). Because they are so sensitive to themselves they can project that sensitivity as tenderness for us... for a while. I remain in awe of how real they can make their empty words seem. They are consummate actors.

#10 Nov 14 - 2PM (Reply to #11)

Susan32

I gave him my shoes

The ex-Psych thought it was fine to mock my family, but I'd say "What if I mocked your family? What if I mocked your beloved father Nicholas?" He wouldn't know how to respond. He assumed that since I respected him as my teacher, I WOULD NOT GO THERE. He made the rule that he could mock me, but I couldn't mock him, because he was the teacher. I wasn't allowed to smile or laugh in his presence, lest he think I was mocking him, and he'd run off, or angrily accuse me of not taking him seriously. Of course, that blew up in his face when the senior skit (that traditionally mocks the professors) mocked HIM in the grand finale. Don't worry, I told him the next day, with a smile on my face ;) I treated him the way he treated ME (albeit in a toned down way, I didn't go on a smear campaign, nor did I fling a boyfriend in his face) Since he lacked empathy, that's what I did. Besides, he tried to rob me of my sense of humor... so there was hell to pay for that. I knew his vulnerabilities and sensitivities, and I seized those like a cougar going for the jugular. When I told the ex-P that I empathized with him... his response was that it was ALL AN ACT. He acted as if empathy were a terrible form of violation. Believe me, I switched the roles, I did so gleefully. He hadn't been my boyfriend or husband, so I did as I wished.

#11 Nov 14 - 3PM (Reply to #12)

Winter

Susan

So, switching roles did not help, did it? I think here lies their biggest weekness. Not being able to "feel" others. I guess it is frustrating for them, they "know" they are lacking something and they cannot get it on some emotional level, no matter how hard they try... A small off topic, sorry: Have you read the novel "The Shot" of Pushkin?

#12 Nov 14 - 3PM (Reply to #13)

Susan32

"Using his own weapons against him"

Actually, it did. I caused some major narcissistic injuries, with a smile on my face, and he stayed away. In fact, the ex-Psych avoided me whenever I was HAPPY. Not all Ns are like that. If I had negative emotions (grief, anger, longing for closure),then he hovered like a vulture. My sense of humor drove him away... because that's what he wanted to take. He seemed to think that being on a senior's oral examination committee on "The Producers" and recounting the previous night's "Simpsons" somehow magically gave him a sense of humor. It didn't. Humor was my greatest weapon. When the ex-P accused me of being like Sofia Tolstoy (the wife of his idol Leo), I've recently read Sofia's diaries. Cathy Porter, the translator, describes her as humorless, devoutly religious, rarely laughed&never told jokes. That's what the ex-P wanted in a woman. Someone devoid of humor. That is *NOT* an ideal I aspire to, or would want to. I'd rather joke around about B movies with my brother in-law Nicholas (that is not a typo) The ex-P felt what *I* felt, albeit in a dumbed-down way, and even that he couldn't bear. Plus, he was paranoid and afraid that people were laughing at him. @Pushkin- Unfortunately, I haven't read that. I'm not familiar with Pushkin. During the final D&D, a friend of mine compared the ex-P to Eugene Onegin, when Tatiana realizes he's been quoting romance novels&laughs at him inwardly. Ironically, Sofia Tolstoy admired Tatiana's strength in rejecting the Narc Eugene... despite being married to a Narc herself.

#13 Nov 14 - 2PM (Reply to #3)

Used

winter

thankyou for your post, but i don't get what you mean about the end and analogy, if the roles were switched then, i would be at his home, and he would be offering me his exs clothes?, is that what you mean?

#14 Nov 14 - 2PM (Reply to #4)

Winter

Sorry and thanks for your patience :)

I know my English suks :) I will try my best to explain what I mean: Let’s suppose (just theoretically) that few months after the incident you described in your post, he would give you something which belongs to some other lady. Let’s also suppose that you would get upset and would tell him that it hurts you. Here is my assumption: I think he would not recall the incident and think: “oh, yes, now Used is hurt the same way I was hurt in exactly the same situation few months ago”. I think to have this natural way of feeling is literally impossible for them. I hope I am a bit more clear this time :)

#15 Nov 14 - 3PM (Reply to #5)

Used

winter

I HAVE GOT IT!!!!!!cos one day he was suppose to meet me at a certain place, and he didnt turn up, when i next saw him i didnt mention it and nor did he... [18mnths later[approx], I was suppose to meet him at a certain place, BUT I DIDNT TURN UP!!!! when i next saw him, he said to me, i waited and waited, and then he said, now I know how you felt that day I didnt turn up at that certain place...... so I think I know what you mean, almost like our triggers, if it happens back to them, thats when the get it....

#16 Nov 14 - 3PM (Reply to #6)

Winter

It makes me realize something...

I am very bad at design. I can appreciate a good design, but only when I see it. It is like I lack imagination in designing things... No matter how hard I try to "create" something beautiful it does not come out as beautiful. So I give up and ask for advises of people who I know being good in it. What if they lack "the imagination" of how others feel? Literally can not "get" it before they are facing exactly the same feeling themselves? What a disorded!

#17 Nov 14 - 4PM (Reply to #7)

Susan32

Failure of imagination

Imagination is a tricky subject with Narcs. Some Narcs are immensely gifted- Leo Tolstoy could create entire worlds, full-fleshed characters, as his wife Sofia once noted sadly "if only he had the empathy for his family that he does for his characters." Pablo Picasso pitted his wives&mistresses against each other-he helped redefine modern art. Frank Lloyd Wright was incredibly selfish in his personal life, yet he was an architect whose gifts are undeniable. Some Narcs have imagination when dealing with objects-fictional characters, architecture, painting, philosophy. Others don't. The ex-Psych prof lacked the ability for original ideas. I have a lecture of his-he quotes St. Augustine&Wittgenstein endlessly-yet he doesn't come up with any ideas he can claim AS HIS OWN. Longtime philosophical partners Jean-Paul Sartre and Simone De Beauvoir both had lovers on the side, yet they could think for themselves. They lack the imagination when dealing with people. Empathy takes imagination.

#18 Nov 14 - 4PM (Reply to #8)

Winter

Yes, Susan, I agree

Some of them are very gifted and talented. Could it be that their lack of imagination required to feel empathy is compensated somewhere else? Like arts, literature, science... Just to compare: it is a well known fact that the autists have some unusual skills in some areas in which they are way better than an average person. Could it be the same here?

#19 Nov 14 - 4PM (Reply to #9)

Susan32

It depends

Some Ns compensate... others don't. The ex-Psych's lack of imagination for empathy infected his lack of imagination when it came to philosophy. I remember being excited when I first met him. It was "oh boy! A real philosopher! And he's handsome too!" Yet he was incapable of having a philosophical discussion. He was totally flat-footed at senior oral examinations, when his colleagues collectively rolled their eyes at him. It required thinking on his feet... something he wasn't good at. One would think he'd excel at writing-because one can format, edit, go on and on and on about one's ideas. But he didn't. If he were imaginative, as deep and complex a thinker as his idol Wittgenstein (who was autistic), or could bring a world to life like his idol Tolstoy... then I'd envy his wife. Believe me, I don't. If he had talent, there would be something to respect. It would be crumbs, but something is better than nothing.

#20 Nov 14 - 8PM (Reply to #10)

ReclaimingPower

Naive games

My N would play these naive games to watch drama unfold over him and I thought he was just married too long and didn't know the social scene. He'd come to the regular place we'd meet and another woman would show up. He'd tell me he invited her to come because she had no friends when in actuality she thought he was interested in him and he had told her to come meet him there! He claimed all innocence but loved watching the dynamics. And when we first met, he told me to ask another woman how much fun he was. I thought she was a family friend, and when I did ask after the devalue phase when I was trying to figure out what that was all about, I found out it was a woman he had been "using" the two months before I met him -- it was the most awkward moment ever -- he told me he wasn't talking to or seeing any other women, but I learned he was talking to her nightly and seeing her out and left her flat when he met me. I was horrified for her and for me. I had no idea and I suppose it was just chance I didn't have a woman approach me to ask me the same, but that day may still come. Although I think he'll know better. I'm fairly certain in our circle I'm the only one that he hasn't been able to keep as a friend. No one knows what went down but I refuse to acknowledge his presence in any way and simply appear to be having the time of my life whenever I am out...which I know frustrates the hell out of him.

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