I did mean to say thanks for posting this, despite the intense feeling I have about Vaknin since watching the 'I, Psychopath' series. When I watch him I have much the same fears at that producer who, despite knowing what he was and what it was all about, knew he was being sucked into something very ugly. Still, this validated something very important for me. I know I was right about what I was seeing so it is another notch in the confidence belt for believing in myself again. When you've been fooled by a man for most of 10 yrs, that is everything to know that you really weren't being fooled at all, you just didn't want to believe.
almostlydia
Like I said on another post, listening to Sam Vaknin is like listening to the devil himself. It is like the 'real' conversation you always wanted to get out of the N but was never gonna happen.
And from what I understand, Lydia came from an abusive background which makes her 'choice' a choice of another color.
almostlydia
Please watch. Sam talks about the Narcissist ability to change once he is aware he is a narcissist. For all those who still want to hold on to this idea, you need to watch this short video. :):)
only one way to go...Forward (tm?)
You guys will laugh over this, last year when i was in the throngs of grieving over my EXN taking off i cam across SamV's book on the internet and read snippits from it. Well I am poor soul,but decided to pluck down $45.00, a lot for me,, for the book, got it at a Barnes and Noble in my area, Read it like the Bible,even knowing he is a self proclaimed Narc, and thought it was quite an eyeopener and explained a lot to me and helped move me toward healing ever so slowly. anyway I email the man,to let him know how much the book helped me and told him a short story of what happened to me and the Narc in my life, a paragraph, no more, he writes me back within a few days to my surprise, and thanks me for enjoying his book and then proceeds to ask me to write a review for Amazon and Barnes and Noble, not ONE word about what I said regarding my long relationship with Narc. true to his words, a total NARC himself, funny when I look back, could I have expected anything differently???!
I was on an NPD forum three years ago where he was a "member". I was horrified at the women falling all over themselves, writing big long novels to him online about their struggles and pain. WHEN he responded, he did so with a (most likely) cut and pasted "here's a link to chapter whatever in my book" which took you to a site where you could purchase the e-book or hard copy :D
He's right, they never heal. In fact, only a Narc would make a name for himself BEING a Narc. Being the biggest Narc. Even that wasn't enough for Sam . . . he had to be a PSYCHOPATH too LOL :D
Still, if you can glean out the truly helpful information he gives out, and remember who and what he is without worshipping him as some kind of savior, his stuff can help you. He's helped more people like us than any psychiatrist ever managed to do, and that says a lot.
made the best out of his narcissism. He truely clarifies alot of things to that disorder, and he speaks from first hand.
So he made something usefull out of it, his narcissism might have a higher purpose. Maybe he is the only psycho, whose existence is justified. LOOL.
That is great. Sam Vaknin is the only Narc who's managed to justify his existence.
Well, before we decide that one, we ought to consult his wife Lydia :( .
Did she really? A good question.
Did she choose any more than we "chose"? I can't believe she is any different than we are. Lydia wants children, and affection and he refuses to give it to her. She hold out hope, though, that one day, he will change his mind.
If she chose, then so did we.
BTW, I agree with you. We DID choose. With a ton of misinformation, lies and blinded by our own desperation and need. But we chose nevertheless.
Has a psycho, that wrote a book about it, made a doku about it in which it was proofed he is a psycho, he makes videos about it.
Maybe we didnt chose it, cause we didnt know better, but she knows, she is in denial...probrably in trauma bonding...but she stays, its her decision.
We stayed, cause we were not sure about their condition.
She chooses to stay now. I was thinking of her original choice to marry him.
It's a whole different choice to make, when you are in ignorance and then when you fully know.
My divorce lawyer point blank asked me how in the WORLD I could have married and given everything to a "meth addict".
I sat there for a few seconds, and then said "I didn't marry and give everything to a meth addict."
I really, honestly did NOT. I know that beyond a shadow of a doubt. I most certainly did NOT marry, share all my hard earned money or children or anything with a Narc or a meth addict. Shared all this with the man I married and planned on living with and loving til the day I died.
That is what I ended up DOING, of course. But how I got there was another story.
Vaknin says that when a Narcissist has a very devastating thing happen to them . . . prison, death of a long time supply source, they may very well be open to "change".
He says Narcs can and DO change their behavior all the time.
But they never ever HEAL. Their NPD is all pervasive, it is part of the structure of their most basic self. No one is ever healed of NPD, it is always there beneath any behavior modification that they may have.
Therefore, a Narc may stop cheating, or stop raging at you. But he will never empathize with you, or be able to respect you. He can "behave" with the appearance of respect, or with the appearance of concern, but it is an act.
We don't just want a person to "mimic" respect and concern for us. We want them to FEEL it, believe it, live it.
That's why we feel so devalued, even when they don't call us names or screw other women. We know deep inside something is MISSING. We are not treated as if we exist in any meaningful way to a Narc.
We need to feel that implied respect, that flows naturally from one normal person to another. When we don't feel it, it is a deep discomfort that is hard to put into words. And it is human nature to wonder if it is US that is somehow "causing" that lack of regard.
Even more evidence that it was, and always will be hopeless, and we have to move on. For the sake of our normal human needs. To a Narc, normal human needs will ALWAYS be intrusive, overly sensitive, irritating, something to squash. THey don't have or understand them.
"That's why we feel so devalued, even when they don't call us names or screw other women. We know deep inside something is MISSING.
Sometimes I, and some other kind ladies here, struggle because many of our members' stories are truly horrifying. For those of us who weren't overtly abused, who didn't have to deal with as you said above the nasty name-calling or the cheating, we sometimes feel like maybe WE were the ones with the problem because the manipulation and lies were so much more covert. But it's abuse all the same. And you hit it right on the head - we always have known that deep down something is missing in them. Jen Aniston said it well about Brad Pitt lacking a sensitivity chip.
Thanks for this post. It is very validating.
I always called it the reasoning chip in their brain! I remember so many times trying to talk rationally to the man but never got anywhere with him, it was so maddening , frustrating and exhausting...............
Scratch prison, Vaknin has been to prison, I'm not certain if he changed or not, has he made mention that prison changed him? I've read some of his material but didn't take notes about his incarceration. The N here is also an ex-con, served 5 years, it did NOTHING to change him, in fact he's worse, they are just hopeless all the way around, sad.
YOU deserve the Noel Peace prize for saying so eloquently what is fundamentally wrong with NPD people ,why they will never"get it", even if they become open to change through some horrific thing that happens to them, they, themselves, will NEVER change what is wrong with them because it is their PERSONALITY and you cannot change that, short of a lobotomy.Your post does SAY IT~ ALL, if we want REAL people we look elsewhere, if we want FAKE people we get a doll.................
Exactly Briseis, and to add to that Sam contends that a Narcissist will make this behavioral modification as a result of hitting a rock bottom (loss of supply, death, bankruptcy etc..) when things are at an all time low, but once this has passed and they are once again in a position of power in their minds, and when they are running stronger than ever, the will revert back to old behaviors. So yes they can change but only for a limited time frame.
B is right as well that NPD is all pervasive and they do not heal. This is their permanent structure and make up. Knowing that this illness is not curable, that we can not initiate or provoke any permanent change in them is vital to our acceptance.
As we all know, acceptance is the key to our recovery and moving forward.
Excellent post Briseis! Excellent!
xoxo
only one way to go...Forward (tm?)
They can and DO change their behaviors, but once their particular "comfort zone" is reached again, they revert to form.
So you end up with a person who CAN "behave" decently, when he sees the need to do so. But as soon as you breathe a sigh of relief, the Narc sees no further reason to behave against their natural inclination -- to keep you devalued.
So you have the cycle of abuse. A "crisis", a period of time where the Narc "mimics" loving, conciliatory behavior.
IT's not to give YOU want YOU want. It's to lure you back in so they can do what THEY want. You never figure in at all, except as an object that exists in service to the Narc's whims.
Narcs cannot be convinced they are doing anything "wrong" or destructive or harmful, even to themselves. That's the core of the NPD, they are incapable of seeing themselves as needing to change. They only do it to hoover you back in.
My Narc grandmother also suffers from Alzheimer's. She's traveled a lot now... which sounds dangerous. My mother expected her Narc grandmother to get BETTER with age... and she's sad and disappointed that my grandmother isn't changing, but has become more histrionic.
Unfortunately, as much as I think Sam Vaknin has valuable insights into NPD, I think he holds false hope when it comes to change.
Change would require an act of God; we're not God (as much as we would love to provoke that change/breakdown) It's like that story in the Book of Acts in which the seven sons get stripped and beaten by demons. The young men wanted to be exorcists;they weren't qualified, so they ended up humiliated.
My mother is having to be detached when it comes to her own mother. It's been very difficult. The Alzheimer's further aggravates the situation. Between a devastating disease that robs memory and NPD... a terrible combination.
I am very leery of Sam Vaknin but I will say I saw what he was talking about - the attempt to change that was abandoned overnight when things got better. For me it became damned if you do and damned if you don't. I couldn't understand what he said in the end as far as aging.
almostlydia
It is an interesting way to bend my brain . . . to know this guy is a complete and utter asshole getting massive supply from all his books and videos and attention . . . YET, he's telling it like it is. If he was trying to feed us a bunch of shit that wasn't TRUE, that wasn't evident in our own experiences, that would be different.
It's like knowing my favorite musician (when I was younger) is a womanizing sleezebag of a drug addict. I actually MET him when I managed a drug rehab in So Cal. He was conniving, manipulative, a liar and didn't care who he hurt. That did a number on my head, let me tell you.
But his music is genius, his voice makes my heart ache, and my soul rides with him when he does his thing.
It gives me a headache to keep what I personally know of him and what his music does to me in my mind both at the same time.
My ex's dad died from cancer right after he dumped me. At first I belived this perhaps made him think, but six month later, Nope! Not even his dad's dead made him think, not even watching his sick dad mistreat and abuse his mother made him think. He also always said "people don't change" He was right about himself on that one.
I visited the grandmother of my ex in hospital last year, a few weeks before she died. She was very confused, didn't recognize anyone except his mother. Her feet and hands were totally swollen, they had to cut her wedding ring to take it off. Her hands and feet were clearly very painful to her. My ex's father started pinching her in her hands and feet! He was laughing when he did this! that was so frightening! His wife just said faintly "please don't do that", but wasn't able to stop him. I said something about it but was hushed.
They are not capable of changing. They just do not understand. It's like explaining the difference between red and green to a daltonist.
LOL, my ex always said the same. People don't change, Therapy doesn't work. Maybe he just knew that therapy wouldn't work for him. At least he learned that by studying for his exams as a psychologist :-)
Thx all of you for sharing these stories.
xoxox
Anne
Betty
almostlydia
Like I said on another post,
almostlydia
Please watch. Sam talks
only one way to go...Forward (tm?)
Betty and Briseis
LOL!!
Well maybe Sam
Like Dexter!
LOLOL!!
Oh Briseis
Jen
But Lydia
very true, Jen
Vaknin says that when a
Briseis - This Is Exactly Right
hi morty
highly insightful
stay~strong
fo Briseis
Exactly Briseis, and to add
only one way to go...Forward (tm?)
Yes yes
Changing with age(???)
I don't see Vaknin giving ANY hope
La-La Land
It's adaptation, not real change
I am very leery of Sam
almostlydia
Me too
My ex's dad died from cancer
my ex's father...
OMG Anne :(