Self aware narcissists? Is it even possible?

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#1 Mar 22 - 3PM
lavendar19
lavendar19's picture

Self aware narcissists? Is it even possible?

What do you ladies (and men) make of narcissists who actually acknowledge their behavior and admit to it? But at the same time have no inkling of desire to change? My ex N and I, who I'm still in contact with because I broke no contact of 8 months :( , have known each other for 5 years. He's only 20, I'm 19. I've heard from some people and from online forums that signs of narcissism in adolescence are common, but this man covers (almost) all grounds of this disorder and it is past just a few signs. Another thing I have to mention is that I've posted my story in another forum before, but after a hard amount of work (I'm sure you guys can empathize on how tough breaking free is) I went no contact for nearly 8 months but fell back again.

He tells me that he feels no emotional connection to anybody except me. If I believe one thing out of his mouth it's this, because we've been friends and on/off lovers for so long and I know he never admits things like this to anyone, especially women. He tells me he's a shape shifter and that he's not himself with anyone. He says he sees what he's dealing with the other person and presents a person who would best exploit (and after saying this he retracked and said no no not exploit, just maximize profits) in that person. Then he paused and laughed and I knew exactly what he was thinking...I asked him "you're laughing because even right now you feel like you're pretending?" and he said "yeah." He says he manipulates people and (already knowing the answer) I asked him if he manipulates me. He paused and said yes. He admitted to being a serial cheater and not being able to help it. I told him that he could help it if he wanted to, he's just indifferent. He laughed and said yeah.. I just don't give a sh*t.

He tells me that in a relationship with another person, he feels like that person is his property. A huge problem I had during our relationship is that I always felt like he was never over ANY of his exes. I must be insecure I used to think but no.... that's exactly how he feels. He tells me that he still feels like all of exes are his properties. I told him that I hope he understands that one day they're all going to get married and how is he going to deal with it?

He paused again and said "well yeah, but you know what's good about that? that they're never going to find anyone as good as me. " I asked if he can think of anyone he knows who might be better than him ...he said "better than me?" and proceeded to laugh like an insane person for 20 seconds. During our relationship I started to see a therapist. she told me from the sounds of it, my boyfriend has narcissistic personality disorder. I confronted him about it...and he still denies being a narcissist to this day saying "he doesn't want to label himself" but he has such strong insight on who he is...is this typical narci behavior? It seems odd to me. I almost feel like he is totally proud of who he is, I told him he was Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde and now he calls himself that and has put it under his "About me" on facebook :S He's PROUD of it and I almost feel like I've made him worse by telling him what I think he is.

A few years ago I asked him what he was like when he was on his own and he said "cold and calculating. I feel nothing on the inside". He tells me I make him feel human and that I'm his mirror, which is why he never wants me to leave. He calls me his therapist. He honestly hasn't called me by my own name in ages. He calls me pet names a lot, like cockroach or sloth. Weird pet names too :S At some point he used to repeatedly call me jennifer, susan or jenjen...(my name isn't remotely close to any of these and he's never had a friend or gf named susan or jennifer). He only calls me by my first name when he's angry or telling me something really serious. Oh and then there is "c*nt, sl*t, b*tch" etc.

Jeez I'm confused. Aren't narcissists supposed to deny who they are? Well I guess it really doesn't matter what they deny or admit if they still go on being who they are with no desire to change..like my ex puts it "why the hell would I want to change? I'm maximizing my efficiency by being who I am, I'm so efficient and rational, I never make decisions based on emotion!"

Mar 23 - 8PM
IncognitoBurrito
IncognitoBurrito's picture

Darn Narcs

I'm willing to bet that some narcissists/psychopaths would get off on being diagnosed w/some disorder. I think they'd take it as a compliment. It'd give them license to feel superhuman. For example, Charles Manson takes pride in the fact that he's famous. He finds it thrilling to know that the whole world is terrified of him. I think some narcs might feel a similar way. On the other hand, people with less insidious disorders might have some twinge of guilt, for hurting others, but only because they've destroyed their relationships, and are left to contemplate what they've done, on their own. Still, others will NEVER, and I mean never, accept any diagnosis given to them. They're are some people who simply can't, or won't admit to having a problem. Especially, if they don't view it as THEIR problem, but YOURS. They'll project what they are onto you, as a way of not having to own it. My mother was this way. I think there's a mix, just as there are a mixture of disorders... some that are comorbid with others. It just depends on one's ability to self-actualize, one's ability for introspection.
Mar 23 - 6AM
jen79
jen79's picture

oh my god

Thanks for sharing this. We know about it, but hearing someone admiting it, geee. I think its part of the manipulation too, that he admits it. I know this from mine, this moments of so called awareness, but never expect any action to follow. Indeed, its part of the D&D, its a distancting tactic. He lets you know, so you opt out, if you dont, expect abuse to happen.
Mar 23 - 6AM (Reply to #17)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Jen

I'm confused...opt out? BUT isn't it about control, why would he want to let you go? If it's towards the end, wouldn't he just get his rocks off on the D&D? What's this about the opting out?
Mar 23 - 6AM (Reply to #18)
jen79
jen79's picture

opting out

Mmmmh...its this conflict, he doesnt want you to leave completely, but he tells you this way to not expect something serious from him. If she ignores that, and misinterpretes his honesty towards her as a sign, that she is special, that he needs help, and that he wants to be helped and fixed, then I promise, he will start to abuse her, devalue her, it will become redicioulous even. Its passive aggressive way to distance himself. At the same time he secures her supply, by showing her the awareness, so she will be stuck in the fantasy of the potential she sees in him. believe me, mine was the master in these tactic, and it took me long to understand the mechanism behind it.
Mar 23 - 2PM (Reply to #29)
Alisa
Alisa's picture

This is exactly how mine won

This is exactly how mine won me back. The woman he was with (after me) broke up with him which broke his heart (that's what he made it seem as). So suddenly he wanted to hang out with me as friends (after months of hardly hearing from him). I was very skeptical in the beginning and I am sure he felt that. So suddenly for the first time instead of saying how things between him and his exes just didn't work out (he never had relationships longer than a few months), he started blaming himself, saying how he wanted to work on himself, to become a better person, blahblahblah There was even crying involved and he told me I was one of very few people who had ever seen him cry (see where this is going?) He bought these self help books on good communication strategies in relationships and said he wanted to try these exercises (basically 90minute talk sessions, kind of like couple therapy only self-help style, actually quite good when done with a normal person) out with me. I pointed out to him that we were not in a relationship and he said some bullshit about how you could use these for friendships also. (I also got the feeling he wanted to become a better person for me) So basically I got the message that he wanted to become a better person. At the same time I was getting more attention from him, including physical contact although kissing and fooling around would be often preceded or followed by a sentence like "I really just want to be friends" Plus he was so sad and "broken" from his ex that I fell for it and decided I would give him all the time he needed to get over her. Stick around as friend and in time he'd realize I was the only one understanding him. A couple of weeks later he met another woman and that's when the calls stopped and we only met for those "communication exercises" during which I could see he wasn't open or honest (he had been only during the first one of 5 or 6 sessions). So I withdrew emotionally as well until I suggested we "pause" those sessions. He immediately agreed and has never brought them up again. I felt he had a moment of awareness but as soon as he found new supply it was gone, he's back to his old self. And I think he knows I was smarter than his other exes and had him figured out partly, so he put in more effort to win me back once he saw that I wasn't going to get right back with him. Well, he succeeded because I was dumb enough. It was only much later that I felt I had been really used. And now I truly understand what was going on.
Mar 23 - 9PM (Reply to #30)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Alisa

They are masters of the game...I almost got taken very similar to you...and I was "the only one who understood him" and when I had my head up my behind...I was about to fall right back into it...but now I'd be the sidekick... OH wait...he's living with her...and he's "In love with me, but loves her..." Yea, and I was trying to get him to get help and he had all thes "moment's of clarity" UH the SOB was milking me. I got a slight whiff Praise the Heavens and saints, something snapped and I shut down shop outta nowhere...slammed the gate shut, sent a final goodbye essentially pulling down his "dress" and that was the end of that. You have to shut him down, he's yanking your chain and laughing...hate to say it. Don't be his fool...you DO know him better and you know what, you CAN master this game...it's called NC... HUGS!
Mar 23 - 6AM (Reply to #19)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Jen

I'm not doubting what you are saying at all...but this aspect of it...totally cluster F's me now...because we have this "picture" of the narc who is selfish self centered, void of empathy etc... AND although passive aggressive with this opt out thing you describe... Could it also be seen as a split..an OUNCE of an gray area..almost like a "warning" to get away? AND then where would that leave all we think about narcs this black and white about them.. hmmm...and I think I know what you're talking about and I think I understand you very well but what does it mean in terms of how we understand the narcs? I know the abuse would come but what do you think is his motivation...for the warning? I mean d&d would be so EASY for them...so why do you think they go for opt out...I know you think its to have one toe in the door but don't they generally have the other supply...oh but then it's to have the back up plan? BUT then if they know YOU will opt out THEN they LOSE their backup plan...so no I'm not clear...what do you think is the motivaton for the opt out plan...damn this is fascinating...
Mar 23 - 6AM (Reply to #24)
WiserNow30
WiserNow30's picture

I received the warning as

I received the warning as well. The Ex N told me to run away and stay away. That he is severely disordered and doesn't deserve me. That I should never look back. That he will get therapy. I believe he was trying to manipulate me into feeling sorry for him. Isn't that what they always do? Want us to feel sorry for them and feel pity so we put our guards down. I'm not sure if it was to win me back and then ultimately D&D me or a moment of clarity. Of course his moment of clarity was all about him, even if it was negative. It had nothing to do with me, my feelings, or what he has done.
Mar 23 - 7PM (Reply to #28)
It'sAllAboutMeNow (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Ahhh.. now it makes sense.

I to got a warning from him about 9 months into the relationship. He looked at me out of nowhere and said, "awww.. you're not happy with me,I'm sorry my mama." That's what he would call me. It was weird because yes we had been fighting the week prior but we were at an amusement park having a good time when he said this to me. I always thought it was odd and it made me feel like he was going to leave me of course causing anxiety. Maybe he was trying to warn me. Maybe for a brief second he felt bad for what he was doing to me. I don't know and I may never know why!!
Mar 23 - 5PM (Reply to #27)
Hunter
Hunter's picture

Wiser

Mine said something like that too, It backfired, I told him "Fuck off, Ill never speak to you again" I keep my word. He'll have to try something else next time with someone else. Idealk
Mar 23 - 7AM (Reply to #25)
onwithmylife
onwithmylife's picture

Strange, I too, received a warning

several years ago he said to me,' you need to find someone else and I need to live by myself', when I questioned him and sounded sad, he just said it is the truth. He knows how sick he is on a subconscience level, I feel convinced of that, there is a gray area in their brain,no matter how tiny it might be.
Mar 24 - 10AM (Reply to #26)
helldweller
helldweller's picture

The warning-sort of

Yeah, I think they all warn us in some way or another. Mine said to me, the first time he came over and was intimate with me: "I don't think it's natural for people to get married or live together." Once he said that, the bullshit began. He positively showered me with declarations of love, committment, intentions for me to move in, marry me, have babies, etc etc etc. I think he felt that, since he told me the truth upfront, his lies were acceptable and I had no right to complain.
Mar 23 - 6AM (Reply to #20)
jen79
jen79's picture

michelle

This is borderline narc behaviour. I think if you read the sharie schreiber aritcle on borderline males, you will understand better. They want love, they just dont trust it. They want you to be near, but if you come too close, they fear engulfement. The need for control comes from balancing that need to be close and fear of engulfement. He has no boundaries this minute he speaks with her, it creates a big illusion of intimicy. And because he did that, I promise you, he will distance himself from her, cause she came too close, and he let her in. They want to secure supply, but in a way that is on armth length. He tells her now who he is, if she doesnt go away, he can say, hey I never lied to you, it was your choice, you wanted it. When she opts out then, he will get a new high of chasing her the next round. He says, here thats what I am, if you stay, your fault, abuse will come, then she goes away, and he can chase her again. There is no way to explain that to you, so you understand, its not possible Michelle, cause its so insane, there is no logic behind it. But I can tell you from my experience. Mine was the Mister I tell you everything about me, everything. And later he will say, there never has been anyting, he will even say you never have been friends, cause you dont know each other. Then when he starts to chase you again, he will start to create again this false intimicy.
Mar 23 - 7AM (Reply to #21)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Jen

I'm fearing my sanity because I understood everything you said...oh boy...humph!
Mar 23 - 7AM (Reply to #22)
WiserNow30
WiserNow30's picture

Overanalysis leads to paralysis

I don't trust anything that N's say. You can't tell when they are being honest and when they are lying. Everything is a game to them. Overanalysis leads to paralysis.
Mar 23 - 7AM (Reply to #23)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Wiser

I have read they have "moments of clarity" but they are very short lived...no remorse attached to that clarity...no accoutability to that moment of clarity but they do have moments of clarity...very far and few between...a glimmer....one every Super moon or something like that...
Mar 22 - 4PM
Steph
Steph's picture

Have you ever watched

Have you ever watched interviews with cold blooded murderers? They speak like that too, describing having no feelings etc. Narcissits want to be appear like a "good guy" so their image is very important to them. From what I understand though, psychopaths/APD don't care as much what others think of them. This guy sounds like a full blown psychopath, in my non professional opinion, anyway lol...seems like it's not so much that he's self aware, he just doesn't care what people think of him so doesn't feel the need to hide it. I dunno. But he definately isn't normal. I wouldn't believe for one second when he tells you he only has feelings for you. Sounds like BS. I doubt he has any feelings for you either. sorry
Mar 23 - 7AM (Reply to #15)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

staying strong...LOL

This guy sounds like a full blown psychopath, in my non professional opinion, I think we are professionals darnit! We've studied this more than the psychiatrists!
Mar 22 - 4PM (Reply to #12)
lavendar19
lavendar19's picture

I love your username, staying

I love your username, staying strong. Good for you, hopefully one day I will be in that position for good...I stayed strong but fell back into weakness again. No need to apologize youre totally right.. I doubt he has feelings for me either. We were together for 2 and a half years (including the friendship and on and off's overall almost 5 years) but we never had sex no matter how much he tried to blackmail, threaten or convince me (saying things like no other man would wait for you as long as I have.. etc etc BS). I was terrified of having sex with him because I thought he'd eventually get bored and leave me (he gets bored very easily and drops people like a hot rock)... but he still continues to chase me to this day because I was the only girl who said no and his childish tantrums never worked on me. What a life, sometimes I just want to go in a cave and never come out again lol.. I hate myself for being so weak and not trying hard enough to let go. And again you're right... I've always thought he was a full blown P (he has extreme violent urges too and tells me he imagines throwing certain people in a blender and force feeding them their own remains...etc, sorry for the disturbing visual.) he has some characteristics that are even beyond narcissism, and again I agree - I think him not caring is letting him open up to me, not his desire to be a better person. Many thanks for your insights
Mar 22 - 4PM (Reply to #13)
Steph
Steph's picture

You resisted his sexual

You resisted his sexual advances?? Well YOU deserve my username more than I do! lol Now that you have mentioned that.....that's probably WHY he does chase you. You are the one conquest he hasn't fully conquered. His blender comment- That is beyond saying something out of anger - now I don't care anymore that i'm not a professional - he IS a psychopath. No doubt.
Mar 22 - 5PM (Reply to #14)
lavendar19
lavendar19's picture

"You resisted his sexual

"You resisted his sexual advances?? Well YOU deserve my username more than I do! lol" haha! that made me laugh :) well it wasn't because I was "strong"... it was because I was constantly paranoid that he'd leave me if I became "boring" and conquered in his eyes. Okay how about if we both deserve the username lol :) And I appreciate your insight as I would a professional's and possibly even more - a professional has a lot of knowledge on a given subject but being subjected to an actual real life experience and giving advice based on experience is priceless and on a whole new level, so thanks for that :) stay strong sister
Mar 22 - 3PM
Susan32
Susan32's picture

Those brief moments of enlightenment

There's something so bittersweet about them. With the ex-Psych professor, he'd have his few moments of lucidity, like a sun that's almost always perpetually eclipsed, but briefly shows itself. Those brief shining moments. I remember the ex-P saying: "I struggle with my narcissism." "I have problems relating to people." "I don't respect students as people." "I'm standing in the way of you living your life." "You don't want to be stuck with me for the rest of your life." He'd say that my happiness was shallow... reading here, one of the signs you're dating an N (while I didn't date him, it still applies), is that the happiness you feel is shallow. He'd say that if I loved him, it meant I was a shallow, empty person like him. "I'm not that smart a philosopher, I'm not that good a teacher." He had his moments. Few and far between.
Mar 22 - 4PM (Reply to #8)
lavendar19
lavendar19's picture

Hi susan <3 bittersweet is

Hi susan
Mar 22 - 4PM (Reply to #9)
Susan32
Susan32's picture

What "Psych" stands for

The ex-P did NOT teach psychology. "Psych" here is short for psychopath. At the time, he was fancying himself a philosopher... he's an expert in literature because, somehow I'm a poltergeist that can take a place&rip it up. The ex-P fancied himself a psychologist too. He'd talk about defense mechanisms, projection, etc... he even went to college where his father was once a professor&the only academic institution that Freud visited in his sole trip to the US (I'm Jung at heart, like Jung I've been to Taos Pueblo) The ex-P was trying to get me to have sex with him as well... but since he was a cerebral Narc, he deemed it low, common, dirty, swinish, in an odd way he was almost sexless... my classmates thought he gave off more gaydar than the Castro in June. He wanted sex, but I never gave in. It didn't help that since he wasn't a somatic Narc, he didn't work out. The ex-P was so angry that I was dating that he'd tell his students about it, IN CLASS... and I'd hear about it over lunch. I think he expected sympathy sex my junior year because he got a beer belly&REALLY out of shape. He always had rotting teeth to emulate his idol Leo Tolstoy (Tolstoy neglected his hygiene, so much so that his wife Sofia would be weeping after sex threatening suicide, Leo was an N) Besides, I think his grand plan was that I'd lower myself to have sex with him. It would be a way to degrade me and say, "See! She was so desperate for sex that she was willing to do it with a fat drunk professor!" There were always rumors about the ex-P's alcoholism... didn't help that during the final D&D he was drinking heavily around students. He had an off-campus class (I wasn't in it, thank God) that involved drinking wine. He'd reminisce about drinking wine in class at the University of Virginia (yes, that can be validated,it IS a tradition there) I once joked to a friend,"I'm not drunk and/or desperate enough to have sex with Mr.T---."
Mar 22 - 5PM (Reply to #10)
lavendar19
lavendar19's picture

my apologies, I thought

my apologies, I thought ex-psych professor meant your old psychology professor lol. my hats off to you for resisting sex with him :) and I admire you for staying strong throughout the painful experience of dealing with such a repulsive man :(
Mar 22 - 3PM
Hunter
Hunter's picture

Have you heard of Sam Vaknin?

Have you heard of Sam Vaknin? Read his stuff! He knows he a narc and has spent his life researching it! He also states he can't be fixed! It's interesting how your guy describes how he feels! All I can say is Wow! As for you, sometimes even if you love someone, setting them free is best! You should come first, he needs to seek help, it's not your job to figure it out! Love to you Idealk
Mar 23 - 5AM (Reply to #6)
agnesmurphy17
agnesmurphy17's picture

Good Point

This Vaknin is an example of an articulate (everywhere on the internet) and seemingly self-aware N. However, this quality gets him a lot of attention, that is, supply. Your boyfriend's "self-awareness" is yet another manipulation ploy to sucker the victim into a shallow relationship which is a one-way street--his way. And this is even better because there is no illusion that he will give you anything in return. Hasn't he told you what he is? So don't expect anything. It's actually a brilliant strategy. Tell 'em the truth & if she stays--it's really her problem if she's not happy because I told her the truth. And the self-aware boyfriend sounds a lot like Ns who answer on websites which I have read. Very cold, callous & self-aware. It is chilling. In the past there have been links posted here to boards/forums where self-professed Ns write in. I have read these boards & I have gained useful insights. Women have written about their troubles with their boyfriends. Ns have responded with BRUTAL analyses which have clarified the behavior of the N but also offered devastating critiques of the woman who stays & what the N thinks about a woman who remains for abuse.
Mar 22 - 3PM (Reply to #2)
lavendar19
lavendar19's picture

Thanks for the reply

Thanks for the reply ideal9NYC :) Yes I've heard of Sam Vaknin, I started learning about narcissism on his site a few years ago and it helped me answer so many of the questions I had about the disorder. We both need help lol. I have OCD myself which is why I think we get along to begin with, in a sense I'm selfish and self interested like he is, but definitely not to his degree. Though I've gotten worse since getting to know him, I feel like I'm turning into him in an attempt to try and fix him ironically lol. He tells me he's brought me over to the dark side and that I have darkness in me that I never had before, which is definitely true unfortunately. I'm pretty certain I'm not a narcissist, but inverted narcissist is definitely a strong possibility :(
Mar 22 - 3PM (Reply to #3)
Hunter
Hunter's picture

Sounds Iike he is

Sounds Iike he is brainwashing you! Try NC for a while! Idealk
Mar 22 - 4PM (Reply to #4)
lavendar19
lavendar19's picture

I'm trying my best to go NC

I'm trying my best to go NC again, it is so damn hard when they suck you in..it gets harder and harder to leave. and many thanks for your insight:)