The Path Forward Virtual Retreat Febuary 2021!



Quick thought about Word Salad

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Sep 30 - 10AM (Reply to #42)
agnesmurphy17
agnesmurphy17's picture

Object Relations Theory

Work is superficial. It's a job. So these guys appear normal. They may be selfish, etc. But these are values which are celebrated in the work community. They talk nice at a business lunch. & then back to the office. These men suffer from a personality disorder which only reveals itself in certain areas. Mentally ill people are crazy in every life situation. Personality disorder is selective to where it is revealed. Object relations theory in psychology attempts to explain how these Ns can be so high functioning at work & terrorists at home. At home, the women becomes the "self-object." The self-object is like the child's blanket--takes it with him everywhere to remind him of the security & comfort of mom when she's not there. In adult life, the intimate partner is the self-object. Just like a child, one minute cuter than a button & loving. The next minute, when his wishes are not instantaneously gratified--temper tantrum. Gratified, tears evaporate, & nice little boy again. These Ns prey on the maternal instincts of women. And like the child owns the mother, the N owns the intimate partner. For the child, the mother's breast is everything. For the adult, male N --it's intimate partner's sex organ & he owns it. As well as her money, her time, everything. Asking a 3 year old for empathy & responsibility is a waste of time. But a 3 year old can do a lot for you when he feels like it & wants to cooperate. Asking a N for empathy is a waste of time. And & N will do nice stuff for you, but that's because he wants to do it (but that's not necessarily for you). We take crap from a 3 yr old because we can physically control him & contain him. (And we love him & have no choice.) But a full grown man, nope -- that's dangerous. (But if you love him-proceed at your own risk, but you have a choice.) Cannot keep a tiger in an apartment, too dangerous. A tiny, tiger kitten, OK. But a full grown, man-eating cat--don't think so. And even all grown up, tigers can be way cute & docile.
Sep 30 - 11AM (Reply to #64)
Susan32
Susan32's picture

Object Relations

I was in a teacher education program down in ABQ, and we had assigned reading. One of the WORST essays was basically telling teachers how to treat their students as OBJECTS. It was chilling. Jewish philosopher Martin Buber is famous for his "I and Thou", about respecting the OTHER PERSON, and how the "I/Thou" relationship is superior to "I/It." Well, this essay, basically told teachers to have "I/It" relationships with their students. Needless to say, it was triggering. I KNEW what it was like to being objectified. It wasn't educational;it was abusive. The ex-Psych professor blatantly said after the D&D that he didn't respect students as people... and my response was a knowing "that's your problem." "Asking a 3 year old for empathy&responsibility is a waste of time"-Funny, when I broke NC, I said something to that effect. It was "I don't expect an apology from you, because that would be like asking for an apology from my baby nephew after he cries all night." Any normal would cringe at being compared to an infant.... and if you're a narc center-of-the-universe, it's pretty damn low.
Sep 30 - 6PM (Reply to #76)
kiwi10
kiwi10's picture

albuquerque??

albuquerque??
Sep 30 - 10PM (Reply to #77)
Susan32
Susan32's picture

Yes indeed...

I was in that region, a decade ago. How eerie. I was in THAT part of the Southwest during my D&D a decade ago... haven't gone back since.
Sep 30 - 11AM (Reply to #65)
better off
better off's picture

But that's why they get so

But that's why they get so jealous of babies. They dont' like children, not because children NEED attention, but because chilren GET attention.
Sep 30 - 1PM (Reply to #74)
sunflowergrl70
sunflowergrl70's picture

Funny thing my ex narc said about babies.

First of all I LOVE babies. I point them out where ever I go and love seeing them on TV. All my babies are grown so it's fun to look at them and remember. Anywhooooooo. My ex "evil genious" (my pet name for him) and I both work in healthcare. In our area we don't see many babies so when a baby comes in we're all gaga over them. One night the evil genious and I were talking about babies and he said "every time a baby comes in it disrupts everything why is that? It's just a baby". I told him he was just jealous that he didn't get the kind of attention when he comes in every day. He acutally shut right up because I think that's exactly what he was thinking. Incidently he blamed the demise of his marriage on the fact that his ex-wife "changed" after she had the babies and she became too "baby centered".
Sep 30 - 5PM (Reply to #75)
outoftheblue
outoftheblue's picture

Evil genius! Hilarious! I

Evil genius! Hilarious! I envision Dr.Evil with his pinky in the corner of his mouth. Love it.
Sep 30 - 1PM (Reply to #73)
helldweller
helldweller's picture

babies and children

This was very hard to reconcile for me, because of the foster child. I could not understand how this guy wanted not just a child but an ORPAHNED child, an absolute sponge for attention and adoration. I have seen, however, that the narc is very careful to present the two of them as a UNIT--the TWO OF THEM are the pitied, the loved, the object of compassion and charity. That's why I had to go: you can't feel sorry for them if there is a capable, loving woman taking care of them. The depths of sickness, truly. That's why I had to go: he didn't want people thinking they were cared for. And he didn't want OUR baby because that baby would have also been connected to me. Homey don't play that.
Sep 30 - 12PM (Reply to #66)
Susan32
Susan32's picture

Here's what I learned...

This is 9 year old news, folks. The ex-Psych professor married the OW, got her pregnant, she had twins. His parents are raising his kids... so much so that the PARENTS get ZERO mention. His parents are the primary caretakers of his children, and are living with him. It explains why the ex-P hated it that I had a babysitting job, or volunteered at an elementary school. He once said "I hate little kids." And yet he fathered a pair. The ex-P must really be cringing at being "Daddy" and his kids getting all that attention! One of his favorite quotes (from Aleister Crowley, the Thelemite) was that when women become mothers, they conspire against their husbands, they become so centered on their kids. Yet the ex-P had the nerve to sabotage my teacher education program accusing me of being "dangerous to children." Um, he was the one dangerous to children.... He's probably become a workaholic to avoid those little kids of his. (yeah, like Darth Vader he has twins-are they Luke and Leia?)
Sep 30 - 1PM (Reply to #67)
ShaynasMommy
ShaynasMommy's picture

wow Sue,

I think mr Crowley misunderstood the fact that what we want generally is for our husbands to grow up and stop acting like the kids, and news flash, kids are a lot of work especially when they are really young. He understood that to be us "conspiring." Yes, we are all so Evil, aren't we? I think your exNP was jealous of children because of their purity and tendency towards happiness.
Sep 30 - 11PM (Reply to #71)
better off
better off's picture

I know, babies smile and

I know, babies smile and laugh! And people like them!
Sep 30 - 11PM (Reply to #72)
Susan32
Susan32's picture

I'd rather listen to...

I'd rather listen to my infant nephew babble for hours than the ex-Psych professor babble meaninglessly for hours, that's for sure. I've been tempted to send the ex-P a cheery little postcard from New England, gleefully telling him that the content of my nephew's diapers after a bowel movement are MUCH MORE substantial than his lectures. To show that God has a sense of humor, the names of the ex-P's and my nephew's father ARE THE SAME. Yikes, if I end up sending them BOTH teething toys by mistake... oh my bad... Should I go for the alligator or the monkey?
Sep 30 - 10PM (Reply to #68)
Susan32
Susan32's picture

Purity and tendency towards happiness

That was DEFINITELY the ex-P's attitude. Now he's got TWO kids to be jealous of. Sheesh, shouldn't he have used birth control or gotten a vasectomy? His name is Hebrew for "dog" and the host of "The Price is Right" always says "Remember to spay and neuter your pets!" As for Aleister Crowley, the "Wickedest Man in the World" (his self-anointed title),he drove BOTH his wife and one of his female lovers into insane asylums for the rest of their lives. The ex-P was incredibly jealous of children... yet he has them. I'm sure he used that trap to snare the OW... she felt her biological clock was ticking, she wanted to settle down&marry. Since the ex-P's parents are raising them... won't one of them grow up with the double suns of Tatooine and the other on the forest planet of Alderaan? And after the D&D, I could've said "You kill me, but I will come back stronger than before!"* *That's Obi-Wan Kenobi.
Oct 1 - 4PM (Reply to #70)
ShaynasMommy
ShaynasMommy's picture

I love that

"Since the ex-P's parents are raising them... won't one of them grow up with the double suns of Tatooine and the other on the forest planet of Alderaan? that's a classic right there, funniest stuff I've heard all week!
Oct 1 - 4PM (Reply to #69)
helldweller
helldweller's picture

Crowley

Jeez. Now that's a good comparison.
Sep 30 - 10AM (Reply to #63)
Used
Used's picture

agnesmurphey17

you have just described my 31 year old marriage in a nutshell....too frightening to think about if i had stayed..
Sep 30 - 10AM (Reply to #43)
better off
better off's picture

agnes

Have you ever read Controlling People by Patricia Evans? It's fascinating and talks about how some people (PD people IMO) have a backwards connection with others, and she discusses this idea of the "mate" being the self-object like you are talking about. She talks about how they see you as Teddy, or as the dream woman. I think in a narc's case it's the dream woman scenario. The dream woman exists in their mind and they try to project that onto a live person, and they go ballistic whenever the dream woman acts like a real person, and they like, literally, cannot understand what you're doing when you are being...YOU. Your actual self. It's like the Barbie analogy we've made here. I think other types can perhaps be pathologically immature and they are more like the Teddy types who are lost at trying to understand that other people have their own thoughts and feelings (lack of empathy) and can treat everyone in the whole world like their teddy bears... and then I think the dangerous N/P types that think they own the "woman figure," and seek them out to prey on them are the scariest of all. NOTE: Don't anyone read Controlling People if you still think you can change a narc... because there is some stuff in there as I recall about "breaking the spell." the only spell you need to break, or CAN break, is the spell they have you under. The title of this book kind of amuses me, because it sounds like a narc book to me, as in HOW TO control people. But no, it's about people who ARE controlling.
Sep 30 - 9PM (Reply to #48)
anonymous
anonymous's picture

Dream Woman and Babies

This thread ties in exactly to what I've been thinking today. Narcs want the impossible - a dream woman - and I think my relationship with one shows this ... Prior to becoming intimate, the narc knew I was a mother and knew that I couldn't produce biological children. (He also knew I was in love with him.) And he said that my family 'situaition' didn't prevent him from wanting a relationship with me. During our relationship, he spoke several times of a college friend who had done right by holding out for the "perfect woman". She is in med school and will be a surgeone one day. She's pefect (in the narc's words) because she doesn't want kids, will be rich one day, and will allow her husband to not have to work and to live the high life. And, during our relationship, the narc idealized me. Used unbelievable superlatives that made me feel like I was his perfect woman. I never felt so sexy, so smart and so understood in my entire life. Then, during the D&D, he used the fact that I was a mother and infertile as the excuse. His exact words: "First – there is a fundamental barrier in your family situation and how it relates to me. I've gone back and forth over the years on the subject of having children. I'm pretty sure I don't want to have children, and don't want to have relationships with children. But you have a child. And we can compromise on this and that and try to keep it separate, but ultimately there is going to have to be some sort of cross-over – a time where I would be spending time with your daughter. You communicated to me at one point that you thought this would be necessary – so your daughter knew who you were going off and spending time with. I completely agree in principle with this. It's ridiculous to think that in 1-2-5 years that we would continue keeping it separate, and I think it would necessarily head in this direction over a period of time. But my issue is that by building a relationship with your daughter, it may very well awaken in me feelings like I want to have a child of my own. And this won't be possible with you. I’m 95% sure I don’t want to be a parent, and that includes being a parent 50% of the time. And even if I could handle that, I don’t want to expose myself to the inevitable feelings of wanting to have my own child, while at the same time being involved with a woman with whom this is not possible. And if I stay the course of not having children, one of the primary reasons would be because I don't want to have a relationship with a child. And you have a child, and it is not fair for her to not know her mom's partner, and increasingly less so over time." Here are a couple more lovely quotes: "I’m extremely concerned that having this conversation is going to plant a seed for long-term longing and false hope, and set one of us up for disappointment. So it might as well be forever." Yet when I asked him to tell me once and for all that it was over or if we could try again, his response was, "No, we can't try again. At least not any time soon." So, let me translate in Morty's Own Words. I knew about your daughter and your infertility prior to getting involved with you but I really wanted to fuck you and didn't give a shit about those barriers. While we were together, I started to feel like you might be the Perfect Woman I've been looking for all my life. Then I freaked out because I realized that My Perfect Woman wouldn't want kids, not because she has a need or a feeling one way or the other, but because she wouldn't want them because I don't want them. BUT, if I decided that I did want them, then My Perfect Woman would be able to produce them out of her own body regardless of whether she really wanted them or not but because I wanted them. And since you can't do that - then you aren't My Perfect Woman so I'm coldly dumping you. If, however, your daughter grows up and I'm single, then maybe we can try again, however don't get your hopes up too much because it's only going to be on my terms if I deign to become involved with you again. So as Better Off said - "The dream woman exists in their mind and they try to project that onto a live person, and they go ballistic whenever the dream woman acts like a real person, and they like, literally, cannot understand what you're doing when you are being...YOU. Your actual self." Only I'll carry that a step further - they go ballistic whenever the dream woman proves herself to be a real person. How fucking DARE she? Real people are mothers. Real people are infertile sometimes. Real people have REAL lives - not "situations" or "barriers". I can only hope that he doesn't actually ever produce a biogical child. And - if this wasn't one of the most cruel, heartless mindfucks a man has ever played on a woman, I don't what is. This was insiduous, tormenting abuse and played on every single hurt, pain and vulnerability I had.
Oct 1 - 5PM (Reply to #59)
hooklineandsinker
hooklineandsinker's picture

"...it may awaken in me

"...it may awaken in me feelings like I want to have a child of my own.....I'm 95% sure I don't want to be a parent..." Which is it, fuckwit? How about learning to tell your arse from your elbow before you go shitting all over other (sane) people's lives? It was like mine said when he was dumping me "I feel not listened to, glossed over" = IMO "I feel ignored". Then later: "I started to be so squeezed by the relationship" = IMO "I felt under pressure". Mututally exclusive feelings. At least, for a normal person.... No wonder our heads nearly imploded. I'm so sorry you met this dickwad, Morty. But you are so intelligent and clear-thinking yourself that you WILL come through this. AND you have a beautiful daughter and the richness of that lifelong relationship with her into the bargain. Something he will never, ever experience as long as he lives. HLS x
Oct 2 - 9AM (Reply to #60)
anonymous
anonymous's picture

Before Shitting All Over People's Lives

Thank HLS. And that's the key, isn't it? He (they) has no concept that he did shit all over my life. It's not about that at all. He makes noise that he knows that he did wrong by me, but it's just noise. He knows that by some measure of common decency that what he did wasn't really the 'right' way to treat a woman he 'cared' about - but he doesn't truly 'get' it. It's still about him and the fact that he shit all over another person doesn't truly, truly resonate with him. And our challenge is to understand and accept that about the narc AND THEN MOVE ON. The material point, I think, that in his own sick, immature, teenage way, he did 'care' about me insofar as he can 'care' about another person. And the most caring thing that he did for me, ironically, was to dump me. And I just have to figure out how to chalk it up to life experience and simply not care anymore that this is who he is because I certainly won't change him.
Oct 2 - 10AM (Reply to #61)
better off
better off's picture

They don't "get it" that

They don't "get it" that they are shitting all over your life, because they don't CARE about your life. You're a woman, that's what you're THERE FOR. That's your JOB. Your life doesn't matter. Only his life matters.
Oct 2 - 11AM (Reply to #62)
Susan32
Susan32's picture

A revision

They don't "get it" they are shitting all over your life, because they don't care about your life. You're a human, that's what you're THERE FOR. That's your JOB. Your life doesn't matter. Only his life matters. I'm saying this because the ex-P victimized males too...
Oct 1 - 12AM (Reply to #49)
better off
better off's picture

OMG, how self-absorbed and

OMG, how self-absorbed and crazy is that? I can't have a relationship with a child... and I might end up somehow against my will having a relationship with a child.. and then I might want a child... and then you can't give me one. Gee, overthink things much? What a freaking WEIRDO. I know you think you love him, but is the real you, the nonbrainwashed you, truly attracted to a man who cannot ABIDE a relationship with a child? YOUR child? The woman he "loves?" Your child is a piece of you. JERK JERK JERK. Thank God he never got within one yard of your child. I do like your synopsis: "Then I freaked out because I realized that My Perfect Woman wouldn't want kids, not because she has a need or a feeling one way or the other, but because she wouldn't want them because I don't want them. BUT, if I decided that I did want them, then My Perfect Woman would be able to produce them out of her own body regardless of whether she really wanted them or not but because I wanted them." That's what everything would be like with a creep like him. His Perfect Woman needs to be able to change on a dime, just like him. Like a big, smiling Barbie that has to be able to perform opposite functions. Like be short because my Perfect Woman is short. No, she's tall. No, be short. I think I'll saw off your feet. PSYCHO!! I went thru this... my kids were the best ever, he never had boys, he could be this great stepdad to my boys and be involved in sports and stuff. Then it was, omg, you have KIDS! I can't be a stepdad to your boys!!! Uh, whatever, they would have hated you anyway, asshole. They don't NEED you, they have a father... and I don't need you anymore either.
Oct 2 - 10AM (Reply to #56)
anonymous
anonymous's picture

Abiding by a Relationship with My Child

"I know you think you love him, but is the real you, the nonbrainwashed you, truly attracted to a man who cannot ABIDE a relationship with a child? YOUR child? The woman he "loves?" Your child is a piece of you. JERK JERK JERK. Thank God he never got within one yard of your child." No, the real me, the non-brainwashed me knows that someone who did what he did isn't deserving of my attraction. He did get within one yard of my child - my child knew him as someone who I worked with. And in the beginning, during the idealization phase, the few times he interacted with her, he was very sweet and kind to her (talked to her, played soccer and wiffle ball with her, ran running races with her, etc). Of course, this was all a ruse to pull at my heart strings and I can see that now. I was stupid enough to believe, "aw, look at him, he's just a normal guy who has some doubts about having kids but I can see how sweet he is to [daughter] so he'll get over his normal guy insecurities." I had no clue that the sweetness toward HER was part of the seduction of ME. And yes - the Perfect Woman was expected to change on a dime. I could go into myriad examples of things he did to show he expected that of me. But ya know - he didn't do that to me while I was being idealized. And he never went through a protracted devaluation phase with me. It went staight from idealization to discarding - only, as you know, even the discarding wasn't full-fledged - it was instead another mind-F. And that mind-F was mainly made up of manipulations and expectations of me turning on a dime. As far as your experience Better Off - I know that we have so many similarities. So I'm using you as my guide .... I'm 11 months into the recovery process. I still feel like I'm far 'behind' in my recovery - I still am not indignant enough about what he did to me. I feel like I still am giving him too much of the benefit of the doubt. I guess that's the empath in me. How did you come to truly believe in your indignance and stop being empathetic to him? Thanks
Oct 2 - 12PM (Reply to #57)
better off
better off's picture

Well, my situation had a big

Well, my situation had a big difference... I AGREED to a friends only period of time, because he convinced me that he was really really confused about all this (and I truly thought this was the only time this had happened to him as it had to me), and he didn't know what to do.. he needed to "sort himself out, sort his life out" before he could go straight into a relationship with me, and of course I had similar feelings as well. And I couldn't bear to let go, and he didn't really let go either, he just ended the "romantic" part, and kept me at arm's length, no more IM, no more phone, no more private emails. We just, and this is so stupid in hindsight I almost can't bring myself to write it down...we just communicated LIKE THIS. On a forum. And he wanted me right there, that's for sure. Then occasionally he would throw me a bone and we'd talk...I had a rough situation going on in my real life and I could still talk to him about that stuff, and I still depended on him. We just couldn't talk about "us." And yet, he continued to be very affectionate with me and treated me like I was "special" to him over everyone else, etc etc... This sucked so bad I can't even tell you. He had basically broken up with me, I was CRUSHED, and yet I had to be Perfect Girl and be cool about it and just keep being patient and understanding while he "sorted himself out" and of course, eventually he would be ready, right? I hate telling this, I really do. Oh, and he was still leaving his wife, of course. Then it became apparent he was moving to another country... but that fucker kept leaving the door open, that it wasn't permanent, and he loved the U.S. and he really wanted to come back... etc etc. And I, being the world's most loving, understanding empath SUCKER, was going to be noble about it. I loved him too much to throw my arms around his ankles and beg him not to go. If we were meant to be, we'd get thru this period and do what we had to for our families, etc, and down the road... "down the road." Oh, and he was still leaving his wife, of course. Of course, I meant it, because when you do LOVE someone, you want the best for THEM and will sacrifice what you want for them if it's best... something he cannot comprehend. They moved, bought a huge house together and are still married. As they will be forever. Sidebar... even though we had our forum together, he discovered facebook.. and reconnected with old mates and stuff... and by God he was getting truckloads of supply from that, and he started ignoring me bigtime. I was at least able to learn from all this that he doesn't really care who he gets supply from, anyone paying attention to him is a drug, it doesn't have to be women. I ended up FB friends with him and that was difficult too... but I learned a bit more about what he's really like, so that was good. Okay, so I went thru a LOT of what you're going thru when I was still involved with him. After he left the country, he came back alone for a month to work on his house before selling it and to sell his stuff. (this is the man who did nothing for the previous 18 months.. this is the man whose wife supposedly would not let him be in a room by himself). So I went no contact, because it just hurt too damn much, and because I knew if he were alone he could suck me back in and then drop me without a thought when he went home. And I knew that it would kill me this time. I couldn't survive another D&D. So I wrote a goodbye letter, and I told him the truth, that I was still in love with him and didn't see that changing, that it was wrong for me to still be in contact and it hurt, that I had walk away, and that he would always be the love of my life. I wish I had never said that, but I did feel that way at the time. I unfriended him and everyone we knew in common. He did ask my close gf if I really unfriended her and she said yes... so I thought he was asking because he cared or something... but it was because he then brought in his new one. Someone I knew, that we all knew together from the forum... but even tho I unfriended that girl, we still talked every day. Unfriending her was part of the plan, because she too felt he might bait me on her wall, etc, and I would still see him, and I was trying to make a clean break of it. Well the flip side was she witnessed what was going on and we figured it out. And once I knew, KNEW that that motherf**ker had been dallying around with this other woman, behind my back, the whole time... I knew that every single thing he had said was f'ing LIE. That his confusion, and his wanting to sort it out, and his ambivalence, blah blah blah was all LIES. He had played me, and that was that. Indignant?? You bet your ass! And my anger then was more about that than even the initial seduction and lies, etc, it was believing and accepting his "anguish" and waiting. Waiting like a dog that had been put out back. Then I started reading everything I could and it became clearer and clearer what happened. I went through a very dark depression, I thought about suicide, it was horrible. It's horrible pain and there is nothing worse than it really, to be betrayed like this. How could someone who knew me so well, who saw and touched my inner soul DO THAT to me???? But... that's what he does. So it's been 18 months since I FIGURED IT OUT, and since I've been NO contact, not since he dumped me. I've questioned it as much as you have, I've somehow felt he cared about me in some immature way, I've told myself everything there is to say. I know it feels like someone is stabbing you with needles when you're told NO NO NO, they are inhuman and don't care... I know you want to believe... but you don't actually recover until you start believing it. TIME will make that better, I don't care anymore. It makes me mad sometimes, but it doesn't hurt like it used to. Does it still hurt sometimes?? Yes. Do I have triggers? Yes. But I have moved on and found other things to make me happy. I am happy again. It would be even better if I didn't come here, because here I am talking about it all the time. But it's helping people and if it makes what happened less in vain then that's good. :-)
Oct 2 - 12PM (Reply to #58)
Used
Used's picture

betteroff

my heart goes out to you..... no wonder your posts on the board keep me enthralled.... you realy have been there done that and worn the t shirt... i am going to write you something lovely I MUST UNDERSTAND WHAT IT WAS,BECAUSE ONLY THEN WILL I UNDERSTAND WHAT I HAVE BECOME. YOU HAVE BECOME AMAZING!!!. lovexxx
Oct 1 - 11PM (Reply to #50)
loveofmylife
loveofmylife's picture

inconsistencies

We've talked about this before...mine did the same thing: Him: "I want a daughter so bad...one that looks exactly like yours...she is so adorable with that eyes and smile...such a huge tribute to her mom." "I want another baby in a relationship that is RIGHT" (while gazing in my eyes.) "look at your daughter, I want one just like that!" Hmmmm....how does DNA work?? Then... "I would never want a girl" "I can't think of you 'that way' since you have been married and with children the whole time i've known you". I think he realized that he needs someone totally fawning over him and can't/doesn't want to compete with children!
Oct 2 - 10AM (Reply to #55)
better off
better off's picture

Seduction

It's important to realize that he didn't mean the first part anymore than he meant the second part. The "I want a daughter so bad" part was just a big fat manipulative lie. At the exact same time he was probably telling someone who didn't have any kids that he never wanted any kids anyway and he was soooo glad she didn't have any. I know it's hard to realize that you have 23 years worth of lies to deal with... but you do.
Oct 2 - 10AM (Reply to #51)
anonymous
anonymous's picture

Competition with Children

"I think he realized that he needs someone totally fawning over him and can't/doesn't want to compete with children!" Yes, they do view children as competition. Here is a quote from my Ex N after the dumping: "I’m not really interested in spending a lot of time with a little girl, given that that I’ve gone out of my way to decide *not* to have children primarily for this reason, and given that I would jealously prefer to spend time with you and not you + daughter. And even if we were separate and alone in the apartment for the most part, I don’t think I could stop thinking about how she was in the next room over, or could pop in at any time with a problem." And here is a quote that is evidence of him setting himself up for a self-fulfilling prophecy situation in which he will later have a 'legitimate' excuse for sabotaging the relationship (he wrote this to me prior to us becoming intimate): "This is complicated. I wish I could say what I wanted out of life, but I've asked myself the same question (Marriage? Kids?) on and off over the last couple years, and am somewhat ambivalent on the subject. No answers come to mind, so I figure this is something that just has to marinate for a while and it will make sense at some point? So yes - I don't really know where this [our relationship] goes, and perhaps it may or may not prove to be compatible with my own life goals. So I guess if we were to get involved in an emotional & physical relationship, it's tough for me to say whether we would continue to be on the same page and get what each of us wanted out of the relationship. But I guess that's a risk I'm willing to take. I like that you are so open and honest with your husband about your intentions, and I trust that you will treat me the same. I'm (sometimes brutally) honest too. So good communication means that maybe there's a good shot that there are none of the misconceptions and misperceptions that plague so many couples."
Oct 2 - 11AM (Reply to #53)
better off
better off's picture

Smoke and Mirrors

MORTY! NONE of this means anything. None of it. OMG does this guy like the sound of his own voice. This is just a total pile of BULLSHIT. Compatible with my "life goals." What a crock of shit! They HAVE NO life goals other than to use, abuse, manipulate, dominate, and control... and that's with whoever presents themselves as an opportunity. They are the ultimate opportunists. Morty, you have spent months agonizing over all this, and the situation with your daughter, and why he would say X and then say Y, and the pain of being rejected over this reason. But this is what you have to see through the fog: It doesn't matter. That's the reason he gave because that's the only reason he could MANUFACTURE. And, it's so perfect for a fucking narc, because he could give you a reason that YOU CAN'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT. So you're left stewing in misery and he's free to skip off scot free... because after all... didn't he SAY he might feel this way one day. What a prick. If you didn't have children, he would have dumped you. If you never wanted children, he would have dumped you. If you had sixteen children, he would have dumped you. If you were pregnant with his own child, he would have dumped you. This "relationship" had no chance. This "relationship" was doomed from the word go. In fact, there WAS NO "relationship" only the illusion of one. It was always always always going to end this way. Mine said the same SHIT about being willing to take a chance, the risk was worth it, because of me, because of what we had, because somehow we found each other and this was meant for our happiness... but in the end, it was like, now now, I always said you could never leave your family... (except for in between I was sending you house listings and making travel plans and talking about what prep school we could send your son to...) I spent plenty of time wondering "what if?" and thinking about what could have been different that would have had a different outcome... even it was just being willing to "stay" an affair and make that deal with myself (which I couldn't do)... but after reading so many stories, and writing so many posts, I realize that that would have made no difference either!! The play had an end, the script was already written, only I didn't know it, I didn't even know I was IN a play. Please let yourself put this to rest, about children and fertility... none of that made the slightest difference.