Personality versus Behavioral Disorders.

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#1 Jul 29 - 4AM
NancyM
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Personality versus Behavioral Disorders.

Hi all, have just been a bit busy flitting around the world (in my mind) in my mad quest for answers. Have visited ADD land while flying past the Milky Way (think Train, Drops of Jupiter) and want to share what I have found.

Disclaimer
Not all of this is based on scientific fact or theory, much of it is the rambling of an overactive mind, but I think some of it bears relevance to our situations.

If we think about the wide range of personality types/disorders and also add in behavioural disorders that exist, it begins to paint a rather interesting picture. For example, people with cluster B personality disorders number somewhere between 10 and 15% of the population going by current estimations. Coming from the perspective of nature as a cause rather than nurture: If nature was to throw up such a destructive, damaging variation of human personality, does it not stand to reason that nature would also throw up something to compensate in the other direction? Apparently ADD represents about 10% of the population, so we have accounted for around 25% already. I see how other behavioural disorders or variation of them would increase these numbers.

If we put Personality disorders at one end of the spectrum, and Behavioral disorders at the other, then normal people would fill the shades of grey between the two. I guess those that fit the shades of grey of normal between these two variations may actually be less of the population than we think. One of the things I notice about Personality vs Behavioral, is that Behavioral can actually present like a personality disorder, yet the reason for the behaviour are often polar opposites. A perfect example of this is Bi-Polar, which can often be misdiagnosed as Narcissism, but it is more often the case that Narcissism can be misdiagnosed as Bi-polar.

Here are some opposites in behavior and reasoning that I have found between Narcissism and ADD, and I think the same may be said for other behavioral disorders.

Attention Deficit Disorder
1. Thinks What is this all about? Why Why Why?

2. Thinks Holistically _ Tries to understand how everything fits together. What is the relationship of one thing to another? What are the secrets to the Universe? (as an eg)

3. Is very empathetic and caring. Can be over gushing in their compliments and though they are meant genuinely, can often come across as over the top.

4. Can blurt out what is on their mind, often talk to themselves.

5. Do not usually like too much attention as it may reveal their quirky nature.

6. Can have a very poor memory for mundane details.

7. Is often hypersensitive, but are likely to hide this in order to not hurt the feeling of others. Is likely to suffer from anxiety due to hypersensitivity.

8. Internalizes everything

9. Mostly learn through the need to fully understand a concept. Other details can often only be remembered through repetition.

10. Has poor concentration, except when interested, and can then hyper focus while the interests hold.

11. Has trouble turning off the mind in order to sleep.

12. Gives gives gives

13. Thrill seeks (some variations) in order to gain focus.

14. Can lack motivation and fall into procrastination if not managed

15. Often consumed with self doubt, because of their quirks, no matter how successful they can be.

16. Often needs help or support to manage their mundane things, but will rarely ask for help

17. Tries to understand where they fit into the grand scheme of things.

Narcissistic Personality Disorder
1. Thinks...What is in it for ME

2. I am the universe

3. Are exacting in their compliments, can have them very fine tuned, even if they are thinly veiled insults. Thinks about how they will be perceived publicly, and everything is done for some form of personal gain.

4. Everything is premeditated. Talks about themselves.

5. Wants all attention at any cost.

6. Usually has an exceptional memory, especially about mundane details, but are very selective in what they admit to remembering.

7. Is very hypersensitive and will punish anyone that they perceive that may have hurt them. Is likely to rage due to hypersensitivity.

8. Externalizes everything.

9. Learns only through committing to memory

10. All concentration is present if the outer world is focused on them, or if they are in the pursuit of attention. Otherwise I am pretty sure their minds are blank.

11. Sleep? Did someone say...ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

12. Takes takes takes

13. Thrill seeks in order to gain attention or prove how clever they are.

14. Is full of motivation if in the pursuit of supply. Will often tell you how passionate they are. FIG JAM at it’s best.

15. Doubt??? MEE?? What is that??

16. Demands full attention and support from nearest and dearest.

17. IS the grand scheme of things.

I could keep going, but I think you will get the general gist. I am also thinking that under intense, sustained abuse, a normal brain’s chemistry will change enough to start exhibiting a lot of the characteristics of ADD. The same can probably be said for OCD from my understating of what Lisa has said. I suppose it depends on what we are more partial to in our reactions, and where in the spectrum of personalities that we fall into. Truth be told, I could do with a dose of OCD from time to time.

Anyway, just some thoughts on it all. That is all I can manage for now, the mind is galloping off somewhere else...lol

"When we remember we are all mad, the mysteries disappear & life stands explained.
-Mark Twain"

Footnote...I just saw Klarity Belles post as i went to post this, I think we are on to something. Also comparisons read much better side by side, I am not up to speed on the formatting here.

Jul 30 - 11AM
KB2
KB2's picture

Polarization

Very interesting threat NancyM. I match most of the criteria for ADD and for Cptsd too. I used to think there was something wrong with me - I was weak, worthless etc now I see my symptoms as psychiatric injury - one that can be healed too. To get to this point, I faced up to my past, worked with the reality that I had a traumatic childhood and realised I had bought into the BS that my early life conditioning had taught me. I learned to let go of false internal belief systems and start to believe in myself, my right to be here, my own goodness and I learned about boundaries and my rights to use them. It is work in progress but there has been a lot of progress. Good therapy has been essential too! I have been an internalizer and most of my relationships (both with FOO and partners) have been with externalizers. I copy and pasted this description of these polar opposites from a website called internetofthemind.com Internalizers & Externalizers There are two possible choices - The energy can be directed inward in the form of self-contempt... or outward as contempt for people, society, authority figures, the opposite sex, God or whoever is available - the man on the street. If we have a tendency to point the contempt inward we are internalizing it. If we are more likely to turn it outward toward others we are externalizing the contempt. The self-talk of an Internalizer is all about the defectiveness of self and fears of abandonment. This leads to inappropriate guilt and more shame - which in turn makes the emotional infection worse. The self-talk of the Externalizer is all about the defectiveness of others and the "unfairness of it all", leading to inappropriate expressions of anger, threats of abandonment, and in some cases physical or emotional abuse. This also makes the emotional infection of shame worse - the conscious mind may be protected from reality but the subconscious mind doesn't miss a trick. Many of us will internalize the contempt until we can’t take it anymore and then blow up - directing it outward in an attempt to displace and ventilate it. When we externalize or "dump" our contempt in this way it lands on whoever is nearby, usually those who are closest to us. Then, because we have hurt someone we love, we turn the contempt back on ourselves through more shame-based messages such as... "See there, I’ve done it again... I’ve hurt someone I care about! I’ve proven it this time... I really am a loser!" People who are primarily Internalizers have problems with: Depression Other-Centeredness Care-taking and approval-seeking Lack of adequate boundaries Have difficulty saying "no" for fear of abandonment And, lack of a sense of personal power Persons who are predominantly Externalizers are less likely to be aware of their behavior and the affect it has on others...They tend to have problems with: Anger Self-centeredness Being shameless and blameless - nothing is ever their fault, can't admit when they are wrong Intrusiveness - don't respect the boundaries of others Rigid boundaries - You can't tell them anything Anti-dependent - Proclaiming they don’t need anyone All of these traits qualify as a subconscious defense mechanism called reaction formation... Reaction formation is a conscious over-compensation for a subconscious fear of the opposite - For example, their need to always be right may be a defense against deep-seated fears of always being wrong. Externalizers have a tendency to demonstrate shameless behavior. Shameless behavior is seen in situations of abuse where the abuser is exercising god-like control over the victim -another reaction formation - in this case, a subconscious fear of being controlled expressed in a conscious need to control. Extreme examples of shameless behavior include sexual, physical, psychological and emotional abuse. Shameless Externalizers develop a very thick scab of contempt. In the extreme cases, the person may be unaware on a conscious level that his behavior is wrong... or even that it is hurtful to the victim. On a subconscious level the Externalizer cannot escape the reality of their behavior or its impact on others because the subconscious mind knows all. In other words, unless the Externalizer has no conscience -i.e., mental filters/networks related to values that would prohibit abusive behaviors - their shame, guilt, and remorse continue to accumulate even though they are largely unaware of it. As their infection of shame grows, so does their contempt along with the need to externalize it. This build-up of contempt may eventually lead to episodes of the violent and/or dangerous behavior - along with more abandonment. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "The deeper that sadness carves into your being, the more joy you can contain." ~ Kahlil Gibran "That which we do not confront in ourselves we meet as fate" ~ Carl Jung http://www.storyofmylife.com/KLARITY4 (KB2 temporary account)
Jul 30 - 12AM
almostlydia
almostlydia's picture

Aren't we all trying to

Aren't we all trying to figure out how we didn't see all of this? What IS it that made us NOT SEE IT so that we can never repeat it again? I know this is my goal above all else. I wonder Is it about wanting this presumed 'cinderella' story so much that we miss everything? There are great articles about boundaries and instincts that are exactly right. All of those were definitely dismissed through an exact and systematical beat down designed specifically for us. Is it enough to know these things for self preservation when prince charming comes round no matter what personality we may be? God I hope so.

almostlydia

Jul 29 - 7AM
freedom_09
freedom_09's picture

Mood disorder

For a time I thought my husband must be ADD, or that he was the one that needed psychiatric attention. At that point I was desperately trying to understand his behaviour and try to help him so our lives would be less chaotic. I never imagined then that he was personality disordered and very unlikely to accept help or want to amend his behaviour. (BTW Bipolar is a mood disorder, very distinct from ADD or personality disorders. Be careful of what you broadcast without real knowledge.) My point is, it doesn't really matter. They are disordered. We are not. End. Of. Alot of it doesn't make sense and probably never will. The important bit is to focus on ourselves and not try to understand something that will never make sense. Ultimately it's just a waste of energy. By reading this forum we all know a lot about personality disorders and their signs. If we focus on the 'how' he did it and not the 'why' at least we can learn the warning signs and triggers and thus hopefully avoid it in the future. We'll never really understand the 'why', these people may as well be from another planet. *** Living well is the best revenge ***

*** Living well is the best revenge ***

Jul 29 - 11PM (Reply to #5)
NancyM
NancyM's picture

Freedom_09

I took some time to respond to this post because I can see where your coming from in that just accepting that things are the way they are, is the way to go in recovery. Power to you if this works for you. Unfortunately, my brain does not work this way, nor, as I am discovering, will it ever. I have recently reached the conclusion that I have all the characteristics of an ADD Predominantly Inattentive personality type. So if current psychological theory is correct, then yes, I am disordered. However in saying this, I have coped very well in life in spite of it because I have learned "tricks" to get past some of my deficiencies. So the main point of the post was to address the huge array of personality types within the human psyche, and how some personality types "may" be susceptible to being targeted bu Narcissists. As a person that has attracted three in a row, I really do want to understand the why of it all, and this information is certainly going a long way in explaining it. I am a strong personality type, but I don't think I would have been strong enough mentally to survive a 20 or 30 year relationship with an N. I did point out early in the post that these were only my thoughts, and really do not understand what you thought I was getting at here. "(BTW Bipolar is a mood disorder, very distinct from ADD or personality disorders. Be careful of what you broadcast without real knowledge.)" I do not want to get into a flame throwing war over this, but I don't think I was saying what you may have thought I was saying. I am not postulating anything by this post, just throwing out some ideas in a thinking outside the box kind of way. It is how I think and some like minded people may find it helpful or of interest. It is not a one shoe fits all scenario. Hope this helps in understanding my way of thinking.

Nevergoback

Aug 5 - 1PM (Reply to #6)
freedom_09
freedom_09's picture

Late reply

Nancy - I apologise if I've offended you in any way and apologies also for late reply. The problem I had with your use of bipolar as an example was that your assertion didn't seem to be based on anything factual or informed. I understand that you are completely entitled to your point of view and my opinion is that we have a responsibility to each other on this board to try to keep things as clear as possible, particularly when any relationship with a narcissist is so utterly confusing and for a long time we are operating in darkness. That's my way of trying to keep things clear and in focus. It may just be that our ways of thinking are at polar opposites and therefore we are going to find it hard to understand each other. Neither right nor wrong, just different. In terms of my own experience, I fully accept that I must take some responsibility for how things were. That's not to say it was my fault or that I deserved what happened. I can see that my early life experiences contributed to my relationship with my husband. My father was also a bully. However, my husband was abusive. That cannot be denied either. Neither can it be denied how good he was at what he did. Expert and practiced. Sometimes I find things hard that this sense of taking responsibility for what happened, buying into the 'victim' stance in some ways, is still thinking 'it was my fault' and I'm sorry but I do not believe that at all. (Someone else here tried to define it as the difference between Camp 1 and Camp 2, I think I come from Camp 2 but choose to operate from Camp 1 if you like!) I did not choose to be punched and raped and diminished so much I honestly thought I'd be better off dead. And I sincerely hope that by learning in a very practical way, the tactics of abuse, the warning signs and symptoms, the red flags, I will be able to spot the next abuser (because he may well show up) and act accordingly much sooner with much less collateral damage. That's my responsibility to myself. All the best to you and yours *** Living well is the best revenge ***

*** Living well is the best revenge ***

Aug 5 - 10PM (Reply to #7)
NancyM
NancyM's picture

Hi freedom

Kinda love your name, and thankyou for the post you made. I agree with everything you wrote, and I do need to be pullled up for how I write. No Bigee, but I want to let everyone know, that if I am not making myself clear, then question me on it. Thet's ok, I am in the process of finding out how I think, and I do not want to offend anyone with this process. Please do not stop posting, because this happened. Your point of view is welcome and so very important to so many. Glad to have you here. The world can never change over one point of view.

Nevergoback

Jul 29 - 7AM (Reply to #2)
Aliveagain
Aliveagain's picture

Freedom I wish I could come

Freedom I wish I could come to that place of acceptance. For short periods of time I seem capable of doing. This is so true: My point is, it doesn't really matter. They are disordered. We are not. End. Of. Alot of it doesn't make sense and probably never will. The important bit is to focus on ourselves and not try to understand something that will never make sense. Ultimately it's just a waste of energy. My problem is that he has really caused me to internalise all his issues and I have walked away feeling like the nutter. I KNOW intellectually this is not the case but emotionally I fear it true because of the anxiety of that plays on my mind over and over. I want to be able to really accept that its not my fault.
Jul 29 - 7AM (Reply to #3)
Aliveagain
Aliveagain's picture

And I struggle for hours

And I struggle for hours each day with the not making sense bit. My mind relentlessly searches for answers!!!
Jul 29 - 8AM (Reply to #4)
freedom_09
freedom_09's picture

Totally understand!

Aliveagain - just look at the name you've chosen for yourself 'aliveagain'! How true. Not dead inside anymore. I do totally understand how difficult it is in the midst of all the confusion to make sense of what has happened. But please don't forget that you have made the first and most important move by understanding what he is and always will be. It Is Not Your Fault. If you refer to the home page of this site, Lisa's first words are It Is Not Your Fault. The first thing my counsellor said was It Is Not Your Fault. It's true. It Is Not Your Fault. You will reach the point of acceptance if you choose to accept that in so many ways there is no way to really understand. When I first speak to friends about what's happened, I only really say 'I was in abusive relationship', people always say 'but why did he do that? What did it mean? Do you think it was a conscious choice?' and I always say to them, 'Don't even try to understand it. You never will because you don't think like he does and it will never make sense to you.' I really think it is that simple and accepting that universal truth allows us to move on and concentrate on ourselves. We've already spent a lot of time in the relationship trying to make sense of it to the point that we realised we couldn't, leaving if we could or were able to, and then still trying to make sense of it. It's entirely natural but I just don't think it's necessarily productive or even necessary. Somewhere else on the web I read (can't remember where and didn't bookmark the page alas) but it helped me a lot. It said 'don't listen to the content', that is, what he says and what he does is by and large irrelevant. It doesn't make sense and never will and that's all that's really needed to understand. That really does give us the space to move on and concentrate on ourselves. Best of luck, you are getting there, it's all part of a process and each part is necessary to get to the next... *** Living well is the best revenge ***

*** Living well is the best revenge ***