Real vs. Fake

24 posts / 0 new
Last post
#1 Jul 24 - 1AM
Anonymous (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Real vs. Fake

There has been alot of talk about the false self or the constructed self of the N. Do you actually have a true identity or a internal sense of self. I understand that much of their behavior is done unconcsiously, but in essence, do they have an internal sense of themselves. Do they really have an identity or do they simply wander from host to host mirroring others. For instance, my N had a "confessional" one evening. He broke down and spoke of some childhood abuse and being "different" from other people. He said he knew he had a real problem being close to people, developing real relationships and friendships. There were tears involved and the emotion looked "real" and the pain sounded real. He talked about his mother's abandonment, etc. In fact, he, not surprisingly cited me as the closest person to him in his entire life. He said he knew he needed to heal and had contacted a spiritual healer to help him with the process. He said he would do whatever it took.

I had one foot out of the relationship at this point and made my decision to stay and support his efforts. Yes, not surprisingly, the healing never came and in fact I don't think he ever saw her. He almost acted like he had never said it. Being in the healing profession myself, he probably knew it was music to my ears. I had not put all the pieces together at this point and simply saw him as a wounded soul in need of help and support, with the understanding that it could not be me to do the work with him. Of course, "the closest person to him was discarded 6 wks later", because I was really not what he was looking for. He didn't really want a relationship, never really did. I was placing too many demands.

My question is this. What it a true confessional of sorts. Did he believe at the time or was that simply a manipulative ploy to keep me invested until he no longer needed a feed? What is the true identity of an N and are they aware of how sick they are? Do they indeed know they are different? What emotions do they experience, if any?

Jul 25 - 3PM
April (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Peru

Thanks so much for sharing that. It is strinkingly similar. Yes, of course, he wanted me to have his babies, because there could've never been a better mother than me. And we would've made fine parents. LOL. I would've made the fine parent for both of us. I was doing really well yesterday and a guy friend of mine mentioned seeing him several times in town and what an upstanding person he was. He says, "why did it not work out between you guys. He was really great!" I think my face contorted or smoke came out my notstrils or something. I just blinked for a minute. I didn't know what to say to this person who could never understand and anything I said would sound like a hurt jilted ex girlfriend. I simply calmly responded and said, "Things are not always what they seem. He wasn't a very nice man to me. I know you liked him a lot and I think the feeling was mutual." He saw the look on my face and dropped it. I am a little nervous because there is another spiritual workshop in town tomorrow that I really want to go to and it is at exactly the same location approximately 2 yrs ago when we met. He may be there and in the past I would've avoided, but I can't avoid forever. I want to see this speaker and I am going, but I am hopefully going to bring a backup person. Not sure what to do. I am not ready to see him, nor do I want to. I couldn't stand to see his glib fake smile. We will just see. I am just going to keep reading and recovering. Thanks Peru. Blessings, April
Jul 26 - 4AM (Reply to #23)
Scoop
Scoop's picture

It is a problem not going to

It is a problem not going to places he will be and that includes all my political activities , which has been my life for many years . We share almost all the same friends . There is a meeting tomorrow night which i want to go to but i just know he will be there . So im not going . I have a phone and i have my friends and i am in touch with everyone although i am not saying a word now about him . He has lost any right to know anything about me . My friend has a great saying its a twist on "i will be fashionbly late " its "i will be fashionbly NOT THERE" I couldnt stand his fake concern about how im doing after the break up , his dead eyes and ego inflation as he watch me struggle to keep cool . NO WAY . I took up an old hobbie .Im drumming in a band ( well i will be when i get up to scratch )but they meet and practice and there are all new friendly people . It hard starting something new after all we have been through but not as hard as the time we spent with the freakoid narcissist . Stave the vampire , it drives them crazy .I know he is being driven crazy my the mad emails he has been sending to me and on the political frount , its like his flood gates have opened and bile is coming out . Im just sitting back and enjoying the show at the moment . Im thinking that this guy knows me very well , he has studied me , watched me and learnt about what makes me tick like no other person , there is no "face" i can put on that he wont be able to interprate . I urge you not to go to your meeting , there are always other meeting you can go to , stay in and post on here , im listerning . big hugs Peru xx
Jul 25 - 3PM (Reply to #22)
liselotte
liselotte's picture

a great answer April

two thumbs up! pleas avoid any location where you would accidently run into him though... take care!!
Jul 25 - 2PM
Scoop
Scoop's picture

April

This was writen to me from him the day of our second break up (now on breakup number 3 ).This shows to me that he did have some insight to his issues . 3 weeks later we got back together and never a word was said about this again . oh yes and a week before we split up he was talking about how he wants my babies . We split up everytime i called him out on his behaviour . The second time i did ask him if the fact he was abused as a child had bared any relation to his coldness , please note that was all i asked and didnt go into detail with him about it . Dear peru Sorry about earlier. Its just you pushed me to new depths about myself it was like being in a counseling session except you are not a professional councilor . I think i know how you feel when i try and push you now . This all goes to the heart of why you feel no malice from me when really you know its not right and you dont need to feel this way when i treat you like this .I think im quite detached and have been for some time , this has been the bane of my suffering for many years now and is the embodiment of all my problems . I thought about it before but didnt what to believe it as i thought that would get me nowhere .What i really need to do is feel not think. its so easy for me to rationalise everything and put reason to it for my own satisfaction but that leads me no further to actualy feeling what is going on . The truth is i dont know how i feel like at the moment . Im sorry ive put all this on you . I do try to be honest and i do think i am more honest than most , but thats no excuse for being as deceitful as i have to you . I cant walk around life by myself for too long and you have been quite fun to be around but at the same time i dont think this is a basis for a relationship like the one we had . I think you need to look into that too Dose this make sense Love worm . (QUITE GOOD FUN TO BE AROUND ...HOW RUDE!!!) but thats what i have come to expect from the freak . he gives then he taketh away . I was ment to go for a summer picnic today but he was going to be there , so i stayed at home and read , i read loads about this condition , its the only thing i can do . i feel if i can understand i can except . your story and mine are the same big hugs Peru xx
Jul 25 - 4PM (Reply to #18)
James (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Interesting letter, Thanks for sharing

Peru, I hope you don’t mind me breaking down this letter but it might surprise you what you can find in a letter of this type. Dear peru Sorry about earlier. Its just you pushed me to new depths about myself it was like being in a counseling session except you are not a professional councilor . I think i know how you feel when i try and push you now . This all goes to the heart of why you feel no malice from me when really you know its not right and you dont need to feel this way when i treat you like this .I think im quite detached and have been for some time , this has been the bane of my suffering for many years now and is the embodiment of all my problems . I thought about it before but didnt what to believe it as i thought that would get me nowhere .What i really need to do is feel not think. its so easy for me to rationalise everything and put reason to it for my own satisfaction but that leads me no further to actualy feeling what is going on . The truth is i dont know how i feel like at the moment . Im sorry ive put all this on you . I do try to be honest and i do think i am more honest than most , but thats no excuse for being as deceitful as i have to you . I cant walk around life by myself for too long and you have been quite fun to be around but at the same time i dont think this is a basis for a relationship like the one we had . I think you need to look into that too Dose this make sense Love worm . Footnotes: 1) Count the number of times I me myself is used to see who this letter is about. 2) Count the number of times this letter uses the words you us ours. 3) “Dose this make sense” isn’t in a form of a question, why? 4) Any letter that starts out with a statement like "sorry" and then followed by a contradiction/blame loses creditability.
Jul 26 - 3AM (Reply to #19)
Scoop
Scoop's picture

Then god sent James

Then god sent James lol Thank you for this , talk about light bulb moment . Heres what happened when i read your email , i thought "ah the ns dose not give a shit about me !" .. simple as that . There is i think little werse than being abused then kicked away . There is no reason why you would treat someone so poorly but it is nothing to do with me . I know my writing leaves a lot to be desired .Im Dyslexic and my spell check is impossible to work but you get the jist of what i say and that is all that matters . oh my just look at all those "I" and "my" in my writing . Maybe im the narcissist ! I have thought that i maybe one but im a veggie and i love and i feel and i care and i ask im i the narcissist . so i know im not . Big hugs Peru x
Jul 26 - 1PM (Reply to #20)
James (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Perutoo

No, perutoo you aren't a Nar too. Why? because Nar's never asked questions for they believe they have all the answers.. But thanks for your comments and hope it helped see that sometimes when we think they are reaching out to us, they really aren't for again "It's All About Him".
Jul 25 - 9AM
cynthia (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

interesting

i often wondered that myself, just who the hell are you then? What are your likes, dislikes, favorite music, color,? Who is the real you and do you ever show anybody the REAL YOU? All that stupid charm talk, pleeeeeeeze just be real, quit with the hello baby, and princess, I dont think I would like to see the REAL person he was I have a feeling it was very ugly, I saw parts of the real him and it was not pretty
Jul 24 - 6PM
Carolyn
Carolyn's picture

He was just playing you to

He was just playing you to be the winner in what he sees as a drama for control. Many children of bi-polars have problems dealing with relationships and if his mother abandoned him that could have been the problem. It is thought that they have a problem with serotonin due to a lack of bonding with the mother as an infant. There are medications that balance the serotonin. the major problem is when they feel a loss of control it kicks in a very big fear out of proportion to the reality of the problem and they drama or walk away. It is a bio-chemical problem, coupled with a fear of intimacy, and these people are unavailable for any type of close relationship. they know that a perspon who wants to rescue them can be easily manipulated so they play the victim and then victimize. this is a bit of a different problem than the genetic disorders because it is brain chemistry and conditioning but all of it amounts to the same thing-they can't do relationships.
Jul 24 - 11AM
quietude (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

they know

Yep, they know what they're doing. I think they accumulate what works for them, and what's worked on others, use it on you along with mirroring and studying you to see what works. Pretty freaking exhausting, if you ask me, but I don't try to understand every behavior issue they have..#1, because as a 'normal' person, we just can't, #2, not wasting anymore time on him than I need to. As far as their awareness of their deep-down true identity, dunno. I suppose it's way to scary to face...so they spend their energy trying to compensate finding suppliers. I think they only 'admit' to having a problem if they're in crisis mode...but it's either short-lived, or it's to manipulate. My therapist said that it's very rare that someone like this has an "open window" opportunity, usually when they have completely hit bottom to try to do something about it. But there are too many interfering factors - coming from them - the typically sabotage any efforts before they're even initiated.
Jul 24 - 12PM (Reply to #11)
insectt (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

quietude

Based on the two year experience with my N, I agree with this. Although he tailors the specific interactions to each individual, he uses the same template to reel victims in. He KNOWS when he finds one he can 'reel in' because I have seen him date other people that he keeps at a distance, without having them get to close to him. I think he can detect who has the traits he will need to cater to him for a while. But when he has his sights set on you...watch out! Constant flattery, wanting to be around you, throwing those repetitive phrases out there (this was briefly dicussed on the radioblog). Things such as 'us', 'this is couplish'. 'if i were to get married...', 'why rush when we have the next 30 years'. Specifically in my case, since we bought a house together it became 'our bedroom' (only to me...to everyone else it was HIS bedroom and the 'spare room' was mine), lets fall asleep together watchin movies, etc... So, the confusion is easy that even though we were never in a REAL and opnely defined relationship, I let myself be tricked about what I WANTED his intentions with me to be. I discarded what he was actually DOING (or not doing) so I can live in a magical world of me and him against the world.....because for a long while it WAS like that. He talked to me about everyone and everything (hence the 'best friend' title). But, in the end, my own sense of wanting to be loved, valued and my ego of 'being the #1 person of this charming, successful beautiful man' made me close my eyes to his manipulations and deceit he worked on everyone else. Yes, my N has had a few 'life changing experience' that has made him TEMPORARILY realize his actions are innapropriate, but this awareness lasted only a few weeks or months. The death of his best friend, the birth of his son. All examples where there was ALMOST a glimmer of change as he realized his non-godliness. When he brought his son home from the hospital i was supposed to move out and his girl he was dating for three years was supposed to move in so they could work on being a fmaily. Yeah. Right. It's five months later, I am still living at the house and he has left the relationship with his baby's mom so he can pursue a NEW relationship with someone else with a kid. Doesn't make sense, does it? He is willing to change and be one on one with this 'new girl' he has only known for less than two months, but he is not willing to change and make it work with his baby's mom (who he has been with for three years! or make it work with me for that matter, who he has been with for two years). Yes, he sabatageous his own life.
Jul 24 - 12PM (Reply to #14)
April (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Absolutely

I absolutely concur. This is ringing such a familiar cord in me. I thought the diagnosis of his type 1 diabetes or perhaps finding out that he was the product of an affair and his father was someone he had never met. Or perhpas it was being unemployed and sued over and over by his ex-wife and subsequently spending time in jail for failure of payment of child support. You can imagine the public humiliation for him. He actually smiled in his mug shot. Anyway, none of these events actually provided any real lasting change of heart. There were momentary glimpses, but I supppose the ego could not handle the harsh reality. He either hit the bottle or looked for a new and better supply. I was on all of these emotional rollercoasters, meanwhile forgetting to pay attention to my own life. I was too busy trying to endure and manage his. I am certainly an advocate of change and growth. In fact, I have built a profession around it an have deeply believed in the goodness of people. However, one has to have full awareness and a true sense of self and has to relinquish control of ego motivations, which an N can never do. Lucky for me, he has found endless supplies with his new found success and steady stream of women supporters. And, i don't have to life with him. Being across town is damn sure close enough and I admit he still lives rent free inside my head sometimes. However, being out of his energy is a relief. I hope you are able to get out of your living situation, if you are still living with him. Removing the toxin would be a great step and was a life safer for me.
Jul 24 - 12PM (Reply to #13)
April (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Absolutely

I absolutely concur. This is ringing such a familiar cord in me. I thought the diagnosis of his type 1 diabetes or perhaps finding out that he was the product of an affair and his father was someone he had never met. Or perhpas it was being unemployed and sued over and over by his ex-wife and subsequently spending time in jail for failure of payment of child support. You can imagine the public humiliation for him. He actually smiled in his mug shot. Anyway, none of these events actually provided any real lasting change of heart. There were momentary glimpses, but I supppose the ego could not handle the harsh reality. He either hit the bottle or looked for a new and better supply. I was on all of these emotional rollercoasters, meanwhile forgetting to pay attention to my own life. I was too busy trying to endure and manage his. I am certainly an advocate of change and growth. In fact, I have built a profession around it an have deeply believed in the goodness of people. However, one has to have full awareness and a true sense of self and has to relinquish control of ego motivations, which an N can never do. Lucky for me, he has found endless supplies with his new found success and steady stream of women supporters. And, i don't have to life with him. Being across town is damn sure close enough and I admit he still lives rent free inside my head sometimes. However, being out of his energy is a relief. I hope you are able to get out of your living situation, if you are still living with him. Removing the toxin would be a great step and was a life safer for me.
Jul 24 - 12PM (Reply to #12)
Barbara (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

template

you mean this hypnotic seduction TEMPLATE: http://www.deeptrancenow.com/exc2_seduction.htm ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Articles & information for abuse victims - Updated Daily Online Coaching for Victims of Narcissists/ Psychopaths
Jul 24 - 7AM
insectt (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Yeah my N seems to know.

Yeah my N seems to know. Before he discraded me, we used to joke about his traits. But it doesn't matter if they know or not, they still treat us like sh*t and that's what matters. Last night I came home from being gone for several days for training for my job. I didn't tell him I was coming home and 'surprise' showed up at the house. He was leaving the house with his brother when I pulled into the driveway. I didn't get a 'OH, you're home early." Or 'I'm running to get something to eat do you want something?" No, at first he didn't say anything to (WTF?!! How do you not acknowledge someone you live with and suppsoedly loved and always wanted around at one point) then, as I was walking towards the house he says to me, "Are you leaving somewhere? If you're leaving somewhere to get something to eat me and my bro want to play video games..." Again, WTF?! I just got dropped off after four days of training and two hours of travel and I am rolling my suitcse up the driveway and you are ging to ask ME if 'I am leaving to get something to eat so you can play video games..." Uhh...yeah. So, yes, I used to wonder if he has a sense of his true self and if he was 'light' on the N scale because his arguments and debates about life seem so...well, precise and beleiveable. But if I want to heal I can't think that way. I just can't. He doesn't REALLY care about me now or how I will feel in the future. Yes, during the idealization phase he showed interest in me and my life and my interests. But that was in the past, and much to my shock and after feeling the most intense heartache I have ever felt in my life, it boils down to that was his FALSE self. I fell in love with, supported and genuinely and unconditionally cared for this man as a lover as a best friend and as what I considered a stand up guy 'that had good in him' despite his peculiar way of regdarding/disregarding people. I could site MANY instances where it seems like he is actually cared for people around him and even for me. But love and caring are not 'once in a while deals'. REAL love and compassion happens daily. It wasn't until MY devaluation/discrading that made me realize he won't change. He has to really 'pull at straws' to find things 'wrong' with me. And yes, things that are 'wrong' with me are tied into traits he loved and adored about me in the beginning. So, last night, after playing video games with his brother he jumps in his car and speeds off to spend time with his new NS. He has to go over there beause she is a single mom and has her child. Which will eventually be bad for her but is good for me because at least I get the house to myself everynight. Anyway, he leaves without EVEN SAYING GOODBYE or asking HOW THINGS HAVE BEEN WITH MY TRAINING FOR THE LAST FOUR DAYS I HAVE BEEN OUT OF TOWN. So, I call him to confront him about leaving and not even acknowledging me. His response "What is there to talk about. It's not like you traveled the Sahara Desert." I say, "How can you not even say goodbye to someone who was supposed to be your best friend for two years. You used to always care about me and what happened to me and interested what ws going on in my life." But all of that doesn't matter. Whether he realizes any sense of self or not. What matters is he has discarded me and will never treat me like a human being should be treated and cared for and loved. And, yes, as much as I would like to know if he has any sense of awareness, in the end, it will never change how he treats me know and how he will treat others. I want to warn the 'new girl' because she is a single mom and he is REALLY roping her in. He stays overnight at her house everynight after knowing her for only about two months and goes out with her every weekend. She is going to fall hard for him, if she hasn't already, but she also has a small child to look after. "Of course, "the closest person to him was discarded 6 wks later", because I was really not what he was looking for. He didn't really want a relationship, never really did. I was placing too many demands." No, you didn't have too many demands, you simply wanted to be loved and treated with respect like most people do. He does want a relationship, he just doesn't want a caring, mutually giving one. He wants a realtionship that's 'All about him.'
Jul 24 - 6AM
Debra (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

That;s a good question, April.

I think they know on some level there is something wrong with them but will do everything they can to cover it up in the public eye. Mine was also a victim of childhood abuse. He would sometimes say "I am different from other people. I do not think the same" As for real vs. pretend, when confronted with some certain truths, mine devalued and discarded me--never to be heard from again. That is what they do when they can not accept criticism or a threat to the false self.
Jul 24 - 6AM
James (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

April

April, This was one of the first sites I found when I started my research on NPD. It’s easy reading and helps the layperson under the disorder. We all have to deal with difficult people. Some days we can be pretty difficult ourselves. Recognizing the difference between normal difficulties and personality disorders can be crucial to decisions about entering new relationships and continuing existing relationships. http://dslweb.nwnexus.com/jmashmun/npd/index.html Hope it helps, I know it did for me.
Jul 24 - 3AM
liselotte
liselotte's picture

It's no use asking yourself what was real and what was fake..

When I first started to read about all the tactics they use I just couldn't help but feel very very stupid for not seeing it through. But the worst part is that you can't imagine it's done by someone who (you thought) loved you and if you read about how they put on a mask of sanity when others are around you understand that it's intentional. That's what hurts the most. After that you start to understand that it's so ingrained in their pathological personality that they just can't behave differently.. that's when it hits home, these people will never change and it will happen again and again and again. Not with you.. because you were discarded a long time ago. It's so damn difficult to wrap your mind around...
Jul 24 - 4AM (Reply to #6)
Barbara (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

this is part of how they do it April

http://www.lisaescott.com/forum/2009/07/14/narcissistic-mirroring-soulmate-trick
Jul 24 - 2AM
Barbara (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

April

They MIRROR you - there is no REAL self. Nothing. They don't like being alone because there's nothing there. If you read Sandra Brown's WOMEN WHO LOVE PSYCHOPATHS she explains it fully. Did he believe at the time or was that simply a manipulative ploy to keep me invested until he no longer needed a feed? Of course it was... they are predators. They false self is a lure, a projection - a mirroring of what they know you want simply to reel you in. What is the true identity of an N and are they aware of how sick they are? They have no TRUE identity. None. They are hollow. Sometimes they get a glimpse of how sick they are but that is quickly erased. They believe they are super-normal and it is us who are sick. Do they indeed know they are different? Yes - different as in special, superior and the center of the universe. What emotions do they experience, if any? Only primitive emotions such as aggression. The need for food, sex and admiration all stem from aggression. They have one setting: ANGRY. Everything else is a mask. http://www.narcissismaddictionsabuse.com/Authentic-Versus-False-Self-of%20-Narcissist.html http://narc-attack.blogspot.com/2008/02/welcome-to-narcissists-world-part-2.html http://narcissists-suck.blogspot.com/2007/06/your-narcissists-self-esteem.html http://narcissists-suck.blogspot.com/2007/08/narcissism-and-dynamics-of-evil.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Articles & information for abuse victims - Updated Daily Online Coaching for Victims of Narcissists/ Psychopaths
Jul 24 - 10AM (Reply to #2)
April (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Thanks again

Thank you so much for all of your informative responses and links. My psychological mind, if I weren't closely involved is intriqued with the psychology of it all. I somehow have needed to understand this personality d/o and the deep psyche of this type of person, not only so I can understand how and why I did this, but also prevent this from happening in the future. What strikes me here is what a fantastic, articulate, supportive group of people there are on this site (women and men). My shame is disappating slowly and I feel much less isolated. I feel that full recovery is possible now. I was teetering on the edge for quite some time, wondering if I could get better and recover. He is gone, but hurt and soul sickness remained. The man who tried to kill me without taking my life, or rather should I say, the man I allowed to do so. I am a big advocate in taking my own personal responsiblity for my choices, even if I had limited knowledge and awareness. What also strikes me here is all of the support we have in our community for women in physically abusive relationships, but none really for this type of relationship. My good friend is the director of a local women's shelter and even she is somewhat limited in understanding, particularly understanding the psychology of the victims of Ns. While some of you may have been phsycially assaulted, my situation was not the case. Mine was WAAY too concerned with image to ever ever do that. He had an image to uphold with his job, motivational speaking contacts, and church of course. They called him the man with the mona lisa smile. I called it the smile that looked like the cat that ate the canery. Anyway, his abuse was subtle at first, covert almost. It wasn't until that moment of the mask unlifting that I began to even suspect a thing. And damn, he put the veil back on so quick, that I hardly knew what happened. That was the first time....My point is that there is little advocacy, education, or support locally and I am grateful for the site. However, much younger women, perhaps adolescents need to know how to spot the signs and recognize what is love and what defintively is NOT LOVE. Thanks again.
Jul 27 - 4AM (Reply to #4)
Barbara (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

April - idea

you know - Sandra Brown is always willing to do talks to communities if someone sets it up for her... etc. If you can find a place that will seat some people and organize an event, you might even be able to make a little money. Or sign up and make a meet-up (meetup.com) for victims of narcissists and/ psychopaths in your area. Once you have even 4 or 5 - meet for coffee, start small... Examples: http://abusesurvivors.meetup.com/221/ http://abusesurvivors.meetup.com/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Articles & information for abuse victims - Updated Daily Online Coaching for Victims of Narcissists/ Psychopaths
Jul 27 - 2AM (Reply to #3)
James (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

April

My point is that there is little advocacy, education, or support locally and I am grateful for the site. However, much younger women, perhaps adolescents need to know how to spot the signs and recognize what is love and what defintively is NOT LOVE. Thanks again. This is my most concern, how so little is given too our young people in education and understanding. That they too will come into contact with those that will try to destroy their ability to trust and love. We all need to warn others of those who talk of love but for them it's only a lie. http://james-personalitydisorder.blogspot.com/