Never trust a narcissist - oops I mean psychopath

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#1 Dec 12 - 11AM
walking_on_sunshine's picture

Never trust a narcissist - oops I mean psychopath

Article from

Mr.Vaknin makes several interesting wide reaching observations about the behavior of "Narcissists. One such assessment address whether Narcissists
understand cause and effect thinking as it relates to their behavior .

Quote Sam vaknin :

"Then Narcissist does not suffer from a faulty sense of causation. He is able to accurately predict the outcomes of his actions and he knows that he might be forced to pay a dear price for his deeds. But he doesn't care."

No supporting scientific information is given to defend this view, so the reader is left to assume this is the opinion of the author. I find this troubling as human beings suffering from NPD often struggle with cause and
affect thinking.

A person with this disorder views the world through the eyes of a child and attempts to relate to others from the viewpoint much younger than their actual age. It is not that they understand that their behavior will cause a certain reaction from people and do it anyway. They lack the emotional developmental skills needed to understand how and why an adult will react to their actions.

On the other hand psychopaths may be able to process how their behavior will affect someone and will make a conscious decision to engage in the behavior despite, maybe because of the affect.

This is a huge difference between NPD and Psychopaths and shows how these disorders cannot be lumped into one overriding category

Dec 12 - 12PM
Goldie's picture

Narcissists and Psychopaths are not the same creature

Two different breeds of PD's. Be careful not to lump them together because it will confuse the new members. Some are with a raging narcissist and if he does not exhibit symptoms of a Psychopath then they may think he is not a narc and go back for somemore abuse. Psychopaths all have narcissistic traits however a Psychopath and his vile destruction go way beyond what a straight narc would do, unless of course he is a narcissitic addict and that destruction can be far more damaging than a narcissist with no addiction issues, although many of them do have addictions, not all of them do. The one's who don't are addicted to themselves so techniquely they are all addicts, lol. Narcs care only about themselves, you are simply supply to them. Psychopaths appear to derive some type of pleasure or satifsfaction over destroying your life. Narc just don't care if your life gets destroyed by their actions, if does or not; no biggie. You screwed it up yourself as far as they were concerned, you should have been taking care of yourself, after all this is what they would have done were the situations reversed. No confusion there for them. God bless, Goldie
Dec 12 - 8PM (Reply to #14)
Amazed's picture

Yes, the difference between psychopaths and the Narc ,,,, PD

Yes, there is a difference between psychopaths and Narcs,,consider it to a degree,, psychopath is all about severe mind control, manipulation, not just getting you out on a date to screw you like the N does, the psychopath does this with complete knowledge and pre-calculated cunning,,and victory to them is all to see you suffer, it is a power control, different from that of an N. It is almost like a sliding scale,,the psychopath has NO conscience, and perceives language differently also.. they have no empathy, not a love,,not even for themselves..the Narc only loves themselves,,where psychopaths are pure is a fine line, however if you have known both, you know the difference....horrible, truly horrible..
Dec 12 - 11PM (Reply to #15)
walking_on_sunshine's picture

Amazed, Each day I realize

Amazed, Each day I realize more, he may have been a psychopath and I realise what that really means, and it sends chills through me. I let this one fully mutilate my spirit. He got all of me and ravaged it.Its like He left me to spiritually bleed to death. I know I will never be the same.. Im hoping if things do happen for a reason, that this sick f*** was my reason NEVER TO EVER EVER engage with the sick mindedness of this horror again. I almost lost my life... theres just no way.Im not even sure if i will ever date again to be honest, I really dont want anything to do with men right now, and I cant imagine if ever.
Dec 12 - 6PM (Reply to #13)
freaked's picture

Incisive Insights by yu dear Goldie

Whaaaw Goldie you have present a perfect disstertation here. I'm going to now note that a P is a bi ;) whereas a N is just a N. Humour!!!!! Love love love your humour and incisive insight sweetie. btw, i'm afraid...i am en route to being cured of my personal grief... the NH is soooooo irrelevant and incidental. Must confess...that some rare moments are coming when I 'feel sorry' for the poor dog.......then I rush back to the Forum and dose myself with fortifications.... right now, was one such episode...and look how rewarded I am...reading this thread! Since......... i am still breathing the fresh air of the tormentor is an N as opposed to a P ..? Love ya Goldie Freaked who remembers you more than you know.. in gratitude and thankfulness
Dec 12 - 1PM (Reply to #2)
walking_on_sunshine's picture

lol, I like the part about

lol, I like the part about them being all addicts because they are addicted to themselves. Trust neither of them psycho or narc, they are both crazy. My post was title was actually about trusting the information coming from Sam who claims to be a narcissist but some think he is a psychopath. re my title: ( oops I mean psychopath) The link is just a random post on a website of no relevance to narcissism in which a poster brings forth the topic of psychopathy and illustrates alternative perspectives on Sams self diagnosis of being a narcissist. Sorry If I confused anyone, Hopefully this the explanation de-confuses :)
Dec 12 - 8PM (Reply to #3)
Amazed's picture

If you have ever been affected by a psychopath...

Please, please watch the videos, and get the book Labyrinth of the Psychopath by Thomas Sheridan...his descriptions of the psychopath are to a 't' and has great insights..incredible. brillinat. Check out his first, watch ALL the others,,you will learn alot..
Dec 13 - 4PM (Reply to #5)
into the light
into the light's picture

Sheridan by my interpretation

Sheridan by my interpretation says there is so much overlap with PDs that the term psychopathy covers them all, including NPD, and my friends in the mental health field say the same. I tend to agree. How could you tell the difference between 'meaning' to do harm, but they did it anyway, and another didn't deliberately plan to harm someone (emotionally, psychologically, physically) but just didn't care about the consequences of their actions?? You can't trust their accounts of why they did anything, as we all know. Puzzling People by Sheridan is a must-read. The psychopathy expert Robert Hare's book Snakes in Suits is spot on. I gave up trying to decide was the guy who put me through so much pain a narcissist or psychopath, and now mostly think of him as a psychopath because the term is so unforgiving, given its pejorative connotations and really focuses on their pathology. Some wouldn't mind being termed 'narcissistic' - it doesn't sound so bad to them. Also Sandra Brown's book Women Who Love Psychopaths paints exactly the picture of many of these predators we write about on this forum.
Dec 14 - 9AM (Reply to #7)
Goldie's picture

The DSM clearly lists them as different disorders

Most all cluster b personality disorders contain Narcissism as Mandy mentioned. A basic narc is all about them as the title suggests. They are focused and concentrating on themselves and their wants and desires. All of the damage and wreckage in their wake is simply a biproduct of you being in their world. They are not concerned or interested in you and your "petty" needs. You are an instrument designed to please and satisfy them. They can see that you are suffering and either they figure it is your fault because you did not take care of yourself like they do, or they look at it and say, this babble is annoying and it is cutting into my golf time so, see ya. It's very simple yet difficult to grasp when you are in the middle of it. A psychopath/antisocial/sociopath is another creature entirely. They are also narcissistic to the extreme and they defy the laws of the land, are vengeful, cruel, sadistic, and lack anything that resembles guilt, conscience, or remorse. A narc lacks remorse because it does not fit into their agenda, because it is not all about them. Why would someone have remorse if what you are complaining about does not pertain to them? They would not. It is not so much that they are intentionally trying to not care about you. They just don't, they are not wired to care about others just themselves. So all that they do is a biproduct of their disorder, which of course it is with the psychopath as well. They lack conscience, they are above it all and do as they please and if you stand in their way, watch out. The narc is more likely than not going to just walk away and leave you in a heap because your demands are annoying. A psychopath will say, shut the fuck up bitch and leave me alone now or I'll give you something to cry about and enjoy every minute of giving you your punishment. A narc could not be bothered, they are on to new supply and you can take care of your problems yourself. They may exhibit rage if pushed to the brink to deal with you and your problems, holes in the wall, a shove, a push you down, a quick smack to shut you up, yet they are not all violent. It is more to shut you up and get you out of their face. A psychopath will give you a wallop that you will never forget and once again, enjoy it. They will only apologize if they still need you for something to suck you back in to compliance, otherwise if they are done with you they will just leave you there and smear your name from one end of town to the next, because they hate you now, you are of no use to them and your reputation means NOTHING TO THEM. After awhile of researching and observation, the distinction become evident, yet they are great manipulators, both narcs and Psycho's so even professionals can get fooled by them and often do. Many a professional has misdiagnoised them. This is why you are often much better off to work with someone who specializes in these disorders, you are more likely to get an accurate diagnoisis of what they are and a better understanding of what you have and are experiencing. It is easy in the beginning to just assume that your narc is also a psychopath, yet it all boils down to intention. Was their abuse a result of a lack of interest in you and how their behaviors affected you or were they trying to take you down and as you begin to recover you will see the difference. In the beginning it appears as though they are all trying to take you down, yet narcs just don't care if you go down or not they are just late for a date with new supply. God bless, Goldie
May 18 - 8AM (Reply to #11)
Recovering Suzie
Recovering Suzie's picture

Glad this thread resurfaced

May 18 - 8AM (Reply to #12)
Monarch's picture

I'm totally not an expert, but...

May 18 - 8AM (Reply to #10)
Monarch's picture


May 18 - 4AM (Reply to #9)
Costa's picture

type of

Dec 14 - 10AM (Reply to #8)
heritage's picture

As I ook back I always founf

As I ook back I always founf it odd that he was looking up Naracissism. He would tell me he was looking it up because he he thought ex wife was one. I am now wondering if he was reading about himself. He was definitely a sociopath. He raped me and as you know I pressed charges. He never had remorse and thought nothing of it. He is full of revenge still with ex wife and he left her and hiud everything but because he still has to pay her alimony he plays games by fudging all his records at work (he's in private practice) and he put his house in foreclosure to try and get his alimony reduced. It always bothered me when I was with him that he did these things and a psychopath wants your approval of their criminal activity or they become nasty and he got real nasty. I have a conscience, he does not. It bothered me that he doesn't pay for his kids college, it doesn't bother him at all. He is in st thomas as we speak with old/new gf. He lies so easily to all authorities. I used to watch him in action and I knew something was wrong. B ut I stayed...
Dec 13 - 8PM (Reply to #6)
MandyM's picture

There's a HUGE different

There's a HUGE different between meaning to do someone harm - as in deliberately thinking about how to hurt someone - and being too selfish to think about the affects of your own actions on others. My ex is a narcissist. Selfish, self-centered, careless, thoughtless, and short-sighted. He did what he wanted when he wanted to do it and couldn't have given a crap what ramifications those wants had on me. He wasn't a psychopath. If he was, he would've considered how his choices or actions would've impacted me and done those things deliberately BECAUSE they would've hurt me, whether he really wanted to do them or not. In addition, he never stalked me, harrassed me, beat me, raped me, stole from me, terrorized me, threatened me, brutalized me, humiliated me, degraded me, or otherwise tried to ruin me. He was passive aggressive, and believe me, it wasn't a good relationship, but nothing he did was malicious, vindictive, or sick - he was simply a five-year-old in a forty-year-old's body. All psychopaths are narcissists, but not all narcissists are psychopaths. They are indeed different enough that NPD is being retained as its own disorder.
Dec 12 - 11PM (Reply to #4)
walking_on_sunshine's picture

Holy cow, Talk about watching

Holy cow, Talk about watching the right video at the right time! Thank you so much. I have always put the focus on narcissism and clearly never bothered to educate myself enough about psychopathy. I will watch the rest now.