Just had an 'aha' moment re: ex-N's 'fatherly/wise man' approach

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#1 Dec 15 - 9PM
Leah
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Just had an 'aha' moment re: ex-N's 'fatherly/wise man' approach

I was just reading Lisa's blog post about Narcs' crazy-making behavior.

Then I read the following quote from Sam Vaknin:
"Very often, the narcissist acts sadistically in the guise of an enlightened interest in the welfare of his victim. He plays the psychiatrist to her psychopathology (totally dreamt up by him). He acts the guru to her need of guidance, the avuncular or father figure, the teacher, the only true friend, the old and the experienced. All this in order to weaken her defenses and to lay siege to her disintegrating nerves. So subtle and poisonous is the narcissistic variant of sadism that it might well be regarded as the most dangerous of all.”

Oh my God.

My ex-N always moved into the "sage" role. Or would give me advice. Or give me a 12 step pep-talk.

I remember like it was yesterday... we were (of course) on the phone, and I was freaking out because I couldn't find an important document that I needed to bring to a court hearing the next morning. I freaked out for a while, at least 20 or 30 minutes; I was searching for the paper and imagining what would happen if I couldn't find it. All of a sudden, he said in a therapist-like tone, 'You're spinning. You need to stop spinning.' He didn't say anything reassuring, except recommending that I call upon St. Anthony to help me find the misplaced document. And I did, because I'm spiritual like that, and I'll call upon any deity that will listen to me. I remember feeling like he kind of talk down to me, but then somehow I turned it around in my head to think that I was the unstable one, and that I shouldn't have let something like a misplaced document unravel me. I beat up on myself about it, and I think I sent him an 'apology e-mail' the next morning, because I felt bad for being so neurotic. It's amazing how just his tone, and the covert abuse, literally had me twisting my own thoughts and feelings around.

When I visited him, there was one morning when he let me drive his car. I felt like I was getting driving lessons from my father. I was driving perfectly fine, but he kept telling me to hug the left side of the lane, because beyond the right shoulder there were ditches. He claimed that if I made the wrong move, we would end up rolling down one of those ditches into someone's house. He spoke in a stern, fatherly voice that made me feel like I was being chastised or scolded. I started driving when I was 14; I certainly didn't need his guidance.

Sometimes his sagely tone irritated me, but I don't remember ever saying anything to him about it. I was too deep in a narc fog to put two and two together and actually speak out against it. I was too busy feeling increasingly inadequate to notice.

He was definitely fatherly and guru-like.

Wow. Thinking about it creeps me out.

In the beginning of the relationship, on several different phone calls, I remember hearing him speak to his daughter in the background...and I had a strong reaction to the authoritarian tone he took with her. I heard a voice in my head say, 'One day, he's going to talk to me like that.' That little voice was right, and I wish I had heeded it.

Remembering all of this really helps me see (yet again...I need a lot of repeated, drilled into my skull, reinforcement) how disordered he was. And this is just ONE aspect of his f*kd up-ness.

*sigh*

And I think a few of my other ex-bf's/ex-N's had that same trait.

Really creepy. Just got the chills.

-Leah

Jan 18 - 7AM
onwithmylife
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what is up

with NARCs and cars, they, have to drive because it means always being in CONTROL. when someone else drives they do not feel in control, right?!when i first went with the man, we took my car someplace and i asked him kindly if he would put his seatbelt on, he got mad, and stated to get out of the car. Another time i was driving in a terrible rainstorm and he kept hollering at me, even though i did everything right, was on the right side, with flashes going, and he said he wanted to drive and I said no, it is my car, so we got home fine and what do you know but the NARC slept on the sofa that night to punish me, is that normal or what???If i had only known how insane the man was, strange I thought it was not normal, but did not know any better, even though i was puzzled by his actions and words.
Jan 17 - 7PM
Amazed
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Bumped Up When they Play Sensitive and Insightful

http://www.vainencounters.com/index.php?q=forum/2010/04/17/when-they-play-sensitive-insightful
Jan 17 - 6PM
onwithmylife
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Leah

We are both old timers, age wise, and I always felt he acted like my father, so one day i said to him , you are not my father, I had one,but that did not stop him from acting like one, it felt very incestuous between him and me in many ways, even though he is just a few years older than me. I was wearing a cute skirt I had bought at a thrift store and came over to his place for a few days, he sees me wearing the skirt, and he says that is not appropriate for a woman my age, i am not 98 years old! so he loved putting his two cents into everything, father knows best, but in this case, not the Narc!
Jan 17 - 6PM
gettinbetter
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Get this...

The Narc would lecture me on hard relationships were that it just wasnt all I love you's with ribbons and bows that sometimes love wasnt enough that relationships were hard work. Mind you I have been married for 14 years he has never been married at 44 years of age and has a string of failed relationships that have all ended in a very traumatic way but of course he needed to educate me on how relationships work. I wanted to say are you freaking kidding me????
Jan 17 - 7PM (Reply to #18)
strongerthanever
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If it's easy, it is meant to be

that was my Narc's philosophy. If it takes work, it wasn't meant to be and the person you are with, is not the one. So...it was hard work to be in a relationship with me, hence, I was not the one. I dont see it as black and white like that. Relationships take constant nurturing and work. Just like any relationship with friends, co-workers, family, and lovers. You put their needs first and work on yourself and how you can be a better person for them and those in your life. My take on his philosophy...if the woman does not question him, make him accountable for his actions, chit-chats constantly about every topic possible on this planet, likes the same thing he does, does what he says regarding kids, work, the house, cleans to his liking, screws the way he likes, then the relationship was meant to be since he had to DO NO WORK!
Jan 17 - 6PM (Reply to #17)
onwithmylife
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sickof it

What an idiot, of course he talks about himself............
Jan 17 - 6PM (Reply to #16)
Susan32
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Lecturing during the final D&D...

The ex-Psych professor would say that he wanted me to remember how he taught me to relate to other people. The Last Lectures (no, not the inspirational ones by the late Randy Pausch about following your dreams) had my eyes glazing over. He'd say I wasn't listening to him... and when I wasn't tears&upset, I'd be tuning out. I was, oddly, doing to him what he did to me routinely. After the final D&D, my responses to anything he did was either (a)smug smile or (b)shrug. He'd be talking about appropriate behavior, personal boundaries, how I was supposed to keep my emotional distance from him, how I was to focus on myself instead of him, how I had been projecting positive qualities onto him due to my own low self-esteem... and what's weird is that the latter 3 points are OFTEN made on websites about how to deal with Narcs... including this one. It's like he had printed out a "How to Deal with Narcs" site and was memorizing it verbatim. I told him that as a teacher he wasn't being paid to command his students how to think&feel. When I told him I cared about him (I didn't go for the nuclear option of "I love you")... his first response was to not even look me in the eye&snap "I'm offended." He claimed that my declaration of love had come from stress. Really. He'd say I was choosing to suffer, that I was embarrassing myself, the constant blame-shifting. At first, I was in tears during his constant lecturing... and by the end I was apathetic. And the problem was he was lecturing me in front of his colleagues&my classmates (and his colleagues weren't backing him up) He made HIMSELF look very bad. At one point I tried to get him to hold off by appealing to his vanity. I appealed to his ego... and it didn't work. When I told him how much my classmates hated him, you would've thought I had given him a box of chocolates, he was THAT overjoyed.
Jan 17 - 1PM
mystwoman
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Xnh did these types of

Xnh did these types of things to me as well. It got so that he made frequently feel not only two-years old, but also completely inept, neurotic, and retarded. He actually had the unmitigated gall to tell me how "should" think and feel as well. He acted like he was just the "Font Of All Knowledge". Gag. Like you, sometimes I wouldn't say anything to xnh about his doing this to me. Looking back, I think I was in the "fog", and I also simply didn't want to get into yet another fight with xnh. It's interesting that you mentioned the "driving lesson" feeling. Xnh did this with me, too. He was horrible in a car when he wasn't driving. It was always "Go here. Do this. You're too close to that car/line on the road/whatever...fill in the blank." I could be 12 car lengths back from the car in front of me, and xnh would be yelling "You're TAILGATING. Back off!! OMG!!!" and then he'd be mashing his foot into his imaginary brake pedal. I didn't even know cars HAD brake pedals on the passenger side until I met xnh. rofl. I finally quit driving with him in the car one day when he pushed me too far. He was going ballistic about everything I did, so I pulled onto the roadside, got out, and told xnh, "I'm done. It's your turn. You're apparently the only person that can drive perfectly. So go for it. Knock yourself out." Then I walked down the street, left him sitting there, and when I got out of his sight, I called my parents to come get me. Fortunately I was not going to be totally stranded when he threw his pissy fit and drove off without me. After that day, it was HIS turn to drive. Always. I didn't care if we were on a 4,000 mile trip. It was HIS turn to do the driving. These narcs are truly messed up in more ways that I count. I agree with one of my best friends about my coming out of the "fog" of xnh. She says that I remind her of King Théoden after Gandalf removed Grima Wormtongue's spell (from "Lord Of The Rings"). I'm now returning back to being myself and living in reality. The spell has been lifted. I, also, think it's rather fitting that she sees xnh as Wormtongue. There's something poetic there. lol.

______________________________________________________
God sometimes removes a person from your life for your protection. Don't run after them.

Jan 17 - 12PM
fierflie
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oh good lord yes

i used call mine 'daddy'(at his request), then after a while he 'got sick of making all the coices, and being responsible for me' and said 'i'm not your daddy'. But, he still asked me to pretend he was my father my first day of college, and when we went to play put put golf together. Then, he kissed me and I said 'that's not what dad's do to their daughters', he said 'some do'. Talk about creepy. He used to whisper things to me like he was talking a child. He'd smile and whisper 'go turn the light off', or 'get me some coffee'. On the other hand, I think that was part of addiction to him. I wanted a father figure. I was tfrying to work through my 'daddy issues', but unfortunately, now I have MANY MANY more. I think it's just part of their superiority. It's a constant, insideous way to remind us they are smarter, richer, more ecperienced, more educated, older, whatever. I'm sure its common. Every dream I still have about him involves that daddy / little girl dynamic. :(
Jan 17 - 5PM (Reply to #12)
Susan32
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Speaking of Daddy issues...

Nice to see you back, Fireflie! I was worried about you! The ex-Psych professor had Daddy issues;unlike the straight Narcs who have Oedipal complexes&are enamored of their mothers, the ex-P had the Electra complex&was enamored of his father (thank Freud's daughter) His father was even a visiting professor at UNM a few years ago. Yes, the ex-P's father taught at UNM. The ex-P would say that he'd kiss his father affectionately, but kiss me like a stranger if I were expecting his child... because Prince Andrei does that. Prince Andrei in "War and Peace" is incredibly affectionate towards his father, but is cold towards his pregnant wife. I saw the ex-P as a father figure. He'd treat me like a child. He'd compare himself and I to Leo and Sofia Tolstoy (Leo was 34 when he married the 18 year old Sofia, the ex-P was 32 and I was 18 when we met) The ex-P was my teacher, I was his student; that's on paper. But he DEFINITELY failed in that. Some bios say that Sofia mothered Leo, despite the fact she was young enough to be his daughter. The ex-P would always harp about how old he was. But I've never seen anyone physically decline as quickly as he did. When I first met him, he was tanned, handsome, slender... during the final D&D he was getting intoxicated around students, had gotten fat, and a double chin. As my mother once said, the ex-P was getting angry at me because I was "acting like an adult"! MOST Narcs are mother enmeshed. The ex-P was father enmeshed.
Jan 17 - 5PM (Reply to #13)
fierflie
fierflie's picture

hi susan

yep, i'm back. i having a relapse :( 'The ex-P would say that he'd kiss his father affectionately, but kiss me like a stranger if I were expecting his child'?? I have said it before andi'll say it again-that guy is one sick f**k.
Dec 20 - 3PM
Deidre99
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LMAO!!!! I just sat here

LMAO!!!! I just sat here literally laughing out loud, leah...WHAT IN THE WORLD? Did we all know the same man?? haha My recent N...he literally said the following...on many occasions: "You need me because you lack stability.'' "You are so wayward, you need my help." "God put me into your life for this very reason, because you lack wisdom and discernment." (for whatever he thought I lacked it in) "If you commited as much time to the Bible, as to your workouts..." "I'm going to be by your side, because you can't go through life alone." "Everyday, I'm going to ask you if you read 'xyz' Scripture, and we will discuss." I could really go on forever, sadly. Over time, these snippits get under your skin, and you do start thinking you need the idiot. I am so ashamed of myself ...I just wish I never allowed this to happen. I know this is part of healing, though. *hugs* and prayers for us all.
Dec 17 - 8PM
Susan32
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"I am speaking to you like an old mother"

Yes..... the ex-Psych professor actually said this when I had been taunting me for grieving my grandfather's death. He'd be oh so condescending. He described himself as "speaking like an old mother" because the wise old peasant Platon is described as being like an old mother when he speaks words of wisdom to Pierre in "War and Peace." He was telling me I was over-analyzing, over-thinking, finding meaning where there wasn't. So he threw in some gender weirdness as well. MOST Ns/Ps here are mother-enmeshed men, practically tied to their Moms. But the ex-P was father-enmeshed. He worshipped the ground his father walked on.
Dec 15 - 9PM
Susan32
Susan32's picture

Another AHA!

Sam Vaknin's quote sums up the ex-Psych professor's relationship with me perfectly. To a tee. He WAS old enough to be my father (by 15 years) and he was a teacher, literally. He took advantage of the teacher/student relationship. He was the teacher-figure... because he was a teacher. During the final D&D, he'd be saying "I'm teaching you a lesson" while I was crying. In front of my friends. It was a bizarre sort of romantic rejection... since he was constantly lecturing me about how I was supposed to feel, and if I thought a certain way, I wouldn't be suffering. I'd tell him "you're embarrassing me" and he'd say "you're embarrassing yourself." I'd say that I felt he was personally attacking me, and his response was "I'm sorry YOU feel that way" (yes, the ultimate non-apology) He'd be telling me that if I thought of him in a different way, I wouldn't be suffering. And it was all about role-playing. Of course, he'd swoop in saying "Have you learned your lesson?" At one point, I told him "if you want me to leave, I'm going to leave, I have to go pick up some money." Instead, he said "I'm not finished with you yet." He'd coldly say "I see you're struggling" but offer NO comfort. During the final D&D, he'd be reducing me to tears and I WAS THE ONE APOLOGIZING. Not once did he apologize. He said that I had acted inappropriately, and somehow his constant hectoring was somehow the right response. In a NORMAL teacher/student relationship, a teacher encourages a student's interests, nourishes their mind. With the ex-P, I felt starved. He posed as a Wittgenstein expert, but whenever I tried to discuss Wittgenstein with him, he'd get evasive, I'd get the silent treatment.
Dec 16 - 10AM (Reply to #4)
MOORE
MOORE's picture

I am sorry "YOU"

Ahhh - another trip down memory line. If ever I was brave enough to say why I was upset, his response: I am sorry YOU feel I dont pay you compliments. I am sorry YOU feel I hurt you I am sorry YOU feel angry I remember when it ended the first time, and after 3 months I met him at coffee shop - he was so vulnerable and nice, I was so strong and pissed. In the end he asked me what is it I want, I said, I want you to apologise for the way you spoke and treated me. His response, I am sorry YOU feel I spoke to you badly and treated you badly. I got up and left. He panicked and called me in the car, I explained that that was not an apology. He should have said I am sorry I hurt you. I am sorry I mistreated you. He then said the words I used verbatim. I eventually went back, (did not know about narcassism then), and here I am again - however, I am not in awe of him now - this site is the godsend. Just scared it will happen again with another N-but taking me time. It is amazing how we dont remember things, and then this site reveals someones personal experience, and again another AHA moment surfaces.
Jan 17 - 2PM (Reply to #8)
strongerthanever
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I'm sorry for the hurt and disappointment

"I'm sorry for the hurt and disappointment" was his line. He would criticize me too when driving. Yet, we almost always got into accidents when he drove. Not paying attention, not braking soon enough...i think he did it to get me to scream, to get a reaction. he would just laugh. When driving, he would do the wipers, when it was fine...i could see but he couldn't. The other lines were: I'm sorry for not being a good boyfriend/fiancee I dont think I am the right man for you We're not compatible Something is wrong with him. He isn't normal (when my son would cry when he would get upset...he was 8,9, and 10)
Dec 16 - 1PM (Reply to #6)
truetotruth
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In the end I used to think

In the end I used to think of my ex as a dictator. He was always telling me how I could and could not speak. It got so bad that he had words I was not allowed to use. In one twist and turn around conversation he tried to use yet another one against me. I lashed out and said "NO! I am allowed to say that I feel like you are maniputating the situation." he said I was a tyrant and that I am being hurtful by calling him a manipulator. That I should refrain from using that word again. I lashed out again and said ( very nastily im afraid) " how about this? You send me a list of what I can and can't say and how to say it and we can try this conversation again another time" Its truly how I felt in the moment. The issue was him calling me at work and upsetting me when I had asked him not to do that. The number is for emergency's only. Somehow by me asking him to be responsible for his actions it turned into this. I still shake my head in disbelief when I think of this. The whole driving thing was horrible. I was pretty good driving standard but I wanted to buff up so I could drive it with confidence. It was so awful. Nothing I did was good enough. I shook with fear when I drove with him cause I knew I was going to screw up in his eyes somehow. I could never ever speak right, dress right, he told me once that I needed to be more submissive. I was too strong......whhhoooaaaa I forgot all this.. Sorry all the flood is here today.
Dec 20 - 3PM (Reply to #7)
Susan32
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So many things I wasn't allowed to talk about...

-My feelings -What had happened to me When I tried to get genuine remorse&an apology from the ex-Psych professor, he thought I was just "harping on the past." I was determined to keep up dredging up the past, no matter how much emotional pain it gave him. I was SICK and TIRED of apologizing to him when I was the one hurting! I wanted my apology... even if it meant violating his personal boundaries and causing some major Narc injuries.
Dec 16 - 11AM (Reply to #5)
mystwoman
mystwoman's picture

Xnh used to try this on me,

Xnh used to try this on me, too. What an worthless way for them to NOT apologize! IMO, if someone is truly sorry, they say, "I'm sorry I did blah" and then they don't do it again. An apology should be sincere. His apologies were merely a way for him "pretend" without actually really meaning it.

______________________________________________________
God sometimes removes a person from your life for your protection. Don't run after them.

Dec 15 - 11PM (Reply to #2)
Jean
Jean's picture

Susan32, apologizing

Yeah, I hear you. I apologized twice to the N, the first time because I was thinking, "this is so painful and I am so angry, I just want to stop being angry." I guess I thought offering an olive branch would help. So I went over to his cubicle about 5 days after his D&D backstabbing move and said, "I just wanted to say I'm sorry for my part in this whole . . .thing." Him: (looking away), "Me, too" (said robotically). Then leaning forward in his chair and fixing me with his stare, "It was starting to get REALLY UNCOMFORTABLE." Me: I hear you What else could I say, it was like he went into attack mode again. The second time, about two weeks later, enough time had passed with NC, and on an impulse I went over to his cubicle and said "Gee, _____, I'd really like to bury the hatchet with you (but not in your skull)" Him: We are both mature adults Me: What I mean is, I really like it if there was no animosity between us. Him: I wasn't aware there was an animosity (said with a seething hatred) Of course, the comment about burying the hatchet in his skull was said in jest, but it was a Freudian slip because that probably really is what I wanted to do at that point. I really beat myself up BOTH TIMES for apologizing. Why should I apologize when he acted like a horrid gutless backstabbing creep? *sigh*
Dec 18 - 7PM (Reply to #3)
Susan32
Susan32's picture

In the end...

I was REALLY sarcastic in my apologies. I'd say "I'm sorry I'm human","I'm sorry I have feelings" and "I'm apologizing to appease your anger." All I did was tell the ex-P I cared about him, these were feelings FOR HIM.. and all I got was rage, rage, rage. I'd ask him why he was angry, and he'd say that he was "discomfited" (how refined) and that I had acted inappropriately. At times during the final D&D, he'd basically be saying "please don't suffer for me", that he wasn't worth my suffering. I took him at his word (but we all know Narcville is backwards) It's when I congratulated him on being engaged, and had come to the closure I wanted--that he raged. One of my friends said that he "sounded like a toddler being dropped off at daycare by his mother." I agree with the ladies here who say the OW is a guardian angel. She SAVED me from marrying the creep! No wonder I had good vibes in her presence. I wanted to treat her to coffee and a girls' night on the town, I was THAT happy. Okay, she may have been a Narc or BPD herself... but still... she DID save me... When it comes to the constant apologies, the saddest, sickest real-life example is of Sofia Tolstoy. Despite the fact Leo emotionally and sexually abused her throughout their 50 year marriage, she apologized at his grave DAILY after he died.