If they were just to come clean, wouldn't that make healing so much easier?

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#1 Jan 17 - 5PM
Amazed
Amazed's picture

If they were just to come clean, wouldn't that make healing so much easier?

Problem with the N relationship, and cycles of their inflicted abuse, hiding, lies, gaslighting, brainwashing, depriving us of peace, and sanity, is that after all is said and done, they don't ever come clean.

Most relationships, when people 'break up' or 'move on' there is some tiny bit of understanding between the two.

A 'connection' I dare say.

Yet,,with the N,,there is NO connection. It just isn't there!!! There is NO form of common sense, no foundation to work from, no solid ground to discuss.

It is all heresay, and there is no meeting in the middle, or apologizing for anything.

Not only does this make it hurtful, but it continues to quake within us.

It would be as if that last straw, the coming clean, would help us move on.

They deny us this very little consideration, again, another tactic to manipulate.

Does anyone feel the same?

Jan 20 - 10AM
4joys4
4joys4's picture

Yes! You would expect when

Yes! You would expect when it's all over for them to come clean, but mine never did so it is just ongoing abuse if you dont stop it. I felt this through this whole past year. They are so not normal. Thats just one part of why no contact is so important. We wont ever find closure with them. We have to forgive ourslves and move on. Like "Frasier has left the building"...we have to disappear.
Jan 19 - 5PM
Barbara (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

narcs 'coming clean'?

“Since [narcissists] deep down, feel themselves to be faultless, it is inevitable that when they are in conflict with the world they will invariably perceive the conflict as the world’s fault. Since they must deny their own badness, they must perceive others as bad. They project their own evil onto the world. They never think of themselves as evil, on the other hand, they consequently see much evil in others.” – M. Scott Peck ~~~~~~~~~ The truth will set you free... but first it will piss you off - Gloria Steinem Visit My Abuse Website
Jan 19 - 2PM
nhtmf
nhtmf's picture

Ladies, Ladies.....come,

Ladies, Ladies.....come, come now and TSK, TSK. Come clean?? You're all thinking like rational human beings again. Does God have to come clean? Does God have to answer to you? He is perfect remember? The Xn sat there with his arms crossed, not even looking at me, and pronounced.....Everyone always says I have to change but I am fine just the way I am. Must be nice, I think all of us are a work in progress. Pre and post narc, we're human and humanity is constantly changing. Just not narcs since they consider themselves perfection personified!!!
Jan 20 - 9AM (Reply to #29)
whatever2009
whatever2009's picture

NHTMF!!!!

"The Xn sat there with his arms crossed, not even looking at me, and pronounced.....Everyone always says I have to change but I am fine just the way I am" MINE DID THE EXACT SAME THING!!!!!!!!!!! He was like a little kid in the corner being reprimanded. WHAT A LITTLE PRICK! Then told me how I was talking in circles...ahahahahah - so predictable!
Jan 20 - 12PM (Reply to #30)
nhtmf
nhtmf's picture

Hi Whatever, yup glad to

Hi Whatever, yup glad to know I'm not the only one to view this phenomenon. Like you said -- a little boy sitting there with arms crossed and the pout lips. You'd swear he was on time out..............not me, not me, she did it. Not my fault !!!!!! And you know what? if I'm the crazy one then so be it, at least I can love, empathize, etc. If that's crazy--bring it on !!!!!!!
Jan 19 - 10AM
agnesmurphy17
agnesmurphy17's picture

Meeting in the Middle

For my N, the meeting in the middle, was for me to go to family therapy with him to save the marriage. According to him, when I wanted to leave, was we had 'adjustment' & 'communication' problems. Each partner was 50-50 responsible for the failure of the marriage. We each had to accept responsibility and change. Hey! The therapist backed him up on this theory of shared responsibility. Normal psychology provides these guys with an alibi for their bad & abusive behavior. Approximately 90% of our problems were his angry & controlling behavior. His abuse. But, if I mentioned this in front of the therapist, boy would there be hell to pay. I was very guarded & cautious in therapy. I spoke very highly of him. Even then, after every session, he would abuse me because I wasn't positive in front of the therapist. Once he even revealed his hand: "You don't play the game of therapy correctly." I said, "I didn't think it was a game. I thought it was about sincerity. Oh well, I'll try harder. I do not know how to play the game. After you, my dear, had over 10 years of family therapy with you ex-wife. I don't have that practice of the 'game' of family therapy." I understood even then, he had kept his first wife under control by using therapy for almost a decade. Talk about emotional rape! All this guy wanted was the 'harangue' of saving the marriage. Alone, in our home. When there were no witnesses. ALL THE PROBLEMS were 100% ME according to him. I forced him to get angry with all my omissions & commissions. His was justifiable & reactive anger to my failings. Alas! He never quite presented the problem to the therapist as he presented it to me over & over & over. If I said, "Ok, it's so awful for you. You're always demanding a divorce. Let's divorce." He says, "No. No. We have to save the marriage." And, if I ever tried to convey what he did to me . . . jeeze this chick must be really crazy & paranoid! And, my husband would concur. He's such a nice & kind & gentle man . . . he would never do those things. She's lying.
Jan 19 - 4PM (Reply to #27)
Carolyn
Carolyn's picture

I went ot family therapy

I went to couples counselling with my ex for 2 years in a group setting. It just seemed to go around in circles and I wanted to quit as nothing happened for the better and there was no improvement. He suggested an additional therapy where you went to an adult sized playhouse and acted out childhood play. I guess I looked like I thought that was nuts and had no therapeutic value. The psychiatrist told me I was showing dissatisfaction because I had transference. I asked him what that was and he said, "you are developing a love interest in me instead of your husband." Now you should have seen this guy. He was fully bearded, obese, arrogant and a narcissist. no wonder nothing ever came out of his group 'therapy.' I told him that insulting a female in his group was a violation of his ethics and that he would not interest me. I walked out and filed for divorce soon after. Imagine paying a psychiatrist to heal the unhealable in a group with 2 other couples with all the women confused and all of the men in the room narcissists. No wonder I was confused for 7 years after the divorce.
Jan 19 - 4PM (Reply to #25)
Barbara (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Marriage & Family Counseling NEVER WORK WITH AN ABUSER!

http://abusesanctuary.blogspot.com/2006/11/couples-counseling-marriage-counseling.html ~~~~~~~~~ The truth will set you free... but first it will piss you off - Gloria Steinem Visit My Abuse Website
Jan 20 - 10AM (Reply to #26)
4joys4
4joys4's picture

I wasted 4 years on and off

I wasted 4 years on and off with couples therapy. You're right, Barbara. It never works.
Jan 18 - 1PM
Carolyn
Carolyn's picture

I think this is about not

I think this is about not having empathy, sympathy, loyalty or respect. They can't come clean because they don't care. That is why this is such a deadly trap that affects so many victims. It is a strange and toxic relationship in which the victim exists physically but is not real to them. It would be like play station or video games. The player, depending on the game, can shoot figures in the game but they don't feel anything when they 'kill' the figures because it is just a game. this must be how the narcissist inter-faces with his victim. there are the stages: the come on, when he fakes his prince charming act, just like being in a video, the devaluing, abuse, then the end. They don't play by any rules so they can't fathom how they could break the rules and they don't care. they just shutdown the game and move on. then if they are bored with other video games they are playing they come back to you-an old favorite but predictable. In the mean time you are a normal person totally bewildered at becoming a one dimensional and devalued person in their video game. You don't know the rules, don't know what is happening and the narcissist has you at a total disadvantage. When you struggle that is the high in the trap part of the game. He Counters your moves, changing the rules, confusing you, and then leaving or getting thrown out of the relationship. For him it is not a 3 dimensional world with feelings, respect for others space, loyalty to your partner, caring, empathy or sympathy. They are just avatars who look 3 dimensional but aren't. I saw something on CNN Money News about a 'game' from San Francisco that has thousands of players worldwide. It is a copy of whatever your fanatasy is with a body you design, clothes you actually buy with play money like Monopoly, you make avatar friends, you can own an avatar business where the computer figures buy things. At the end of the month when players who made purchases trade in the monopoly money it is changed to dollars and a check is sent to the owner of the 'play' business. One American female designer was making $50,000 a year with her 'play' dress store. To the narcissist this is their view of the world only negative and mean. They are nasty avatars.
Jan 18 - 2PM (Reply to #21)
ForeverLearning
ForeverLearning's picture

We Are Just Video Games To Them - Awesome Idea!!

Carolyn, that was a phenomenal idea you just presented, that we are nothing but a video game to them to play with and then turn off!! And move on to a different video game (woman). But then maybe come back to us some time later, when they grow tired with the other video games in their lives. And truly, their emotional maturity is that of a teenage boy anyway!! If that. Probably much younger. I swear, that single idea is one of the most EASY and CLEAR ideas I have read on this entire subject regarding Psychopaths and Narcisissts. THANK YOU Carolyn.
Jan 18 - 3PM (Reply to #22)
baddream
baddream's picture

Yes, that is an awesome analogy.

The narcissists love their games, just like little children. Sometimes they are bored with their toys and put them aside, only to take them out again at a later date. Sometimes they break their toys so they don't work anymore, or they abuse them until they are ready for the trash pile. N can do anything to his games, and it won't talk back. When he does not win his game, he can turn it off and play another one. When they are really lucky, they have lots of new toys to play with and can go from one to another. The thrill of a new favorite game last only as long as the next one comes along. Loved your post, Carolyn.
Jan 18 - 4PM (Reply to #23)
Monica
Monica's picture

Toys.....you are right, baddream.....

The beginning of the end for me was when xN said to me "I love my toys." Cars. Money. Property. TV's. Stuff in general. (All alleged, of course, because I don't think most of it even existed in reality.) Regardless, I realized then...I was nothing more than a "toy" for him. Perhaps the only REAL toy, the only one that truly existed, but nevertheless a toy. He never got bored with me. He did use the silent treatment and ignoring, the disrespect, the taking more than giving. I was the one who dumped him. But it was the "I love my toys" comment that truly pushed me over the edge. The problem is, when all the other "toys" are fantasy and no new "toys" can be acquired...the hoovering begins yet AGAIN. They are snakes, very tricky, they can find the most bizarre ways to contact you. And so I try to move further away from him.....literally and figuratively. And get therapy. And take meds.
Jan 18 - 11AM
AnotherPath
AnotherPath's picture

There's no help from them

There's no help from them for moving on. How can there be when their own lives are so dysfunctional and grotesque. They're just not right in the head, that's why they behave like they do. They are abusers and nothing they do or say makes any sense and I actually couldn't give a stuff what my ExN says, he's evil and he can rot for the rest of his life in his pathetic made up rageful empty life. They are all a piece of lying crap. We don't need anything from pieces of crap apart from being left alone.

Ending the dance

Jan 18 - 11AM
justwantpeace
justwantpeace's picture

they dont

Oh they dont come clean. Honestly you may not even be ready to hear it if he were to come clean. They can do some really nasty things. I thought I use to want to know but I dont anymore. It would just hurt me deeper and make my recovery longer. It is hard to find closure on your own because of all the unanswered questions. But truthfully if you can start finding that closure for yourself, you will be much better off. I think its really ashame when you do eventually start to heal and try to move on with your life, they try to stop you from doing that. To me that is the most cruel thing a person can do to someone else is hinder a person from trying to take care of themself.
Jan 18 - 4PM (Reply to #11)
cynthia (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

They want you, but they dont.....

think its really ashame when you do eventually start to heal and try to move on with your life, they try to stop you from doing that. To me that is the most cruel thing a person can do to someone else EXACTLY. I think its a true testament to ourselves when we see what they are, accept what they are take steps to recover, get counseling, heal and move on with our lives, all of which is so very painful dealing with and these selfish, sick individuals want to keep us stuck just waiting in the wings for them so they can play more games with us, they dont want us and when they are with us they cheat, lie, and you name it, they do it... So we say ok I will move on and they dont want us to move on either. Its like you want to say, look asshole in the game of LIFE the object of the game is not to destroy people or all your opponents will leave, life is to be shared, nurtured and treated with respect none of which you will ever have living life with these creatures. That is the cruelest thing you can do to another human, when we leave we ask NOTHING of them, we just cut our losses and leave and know we must make a new life for ourselves without any help from them thats for sure, and they still want to suck more from you for having the guts and strength to move on and quit their sick game, I FOLD, I QUIT someone else can have my hand
Jan 18 - 7PM (Reply to #12)
Monica
Monica's picture

Cynthia...you are so right.....

I dumped him. I went NC. He was able to con me into contact (through business connections and associates that I could not ignore) but then did not try to contact me for 4 weeks. I thought I was free. I was moving on without him, moving forward, moving up. Then....BAM. He weasled his way back in, through the back door, invading my professional life yet again. Now I realize I have to leave my job. MY JOB. He just won't go away and leave me be. He is relentless. I guess he couldn't stand that I was okay without him. He was waiting in the wings. I had not given in and contacted him like I had so many times before. I was DONE with him. I was curt but professional when his calls got through to me (you can go NC only so far when business is involved), but it was clear I was doing fine without him and did not need him in my life. Then he pulled out all the stops and weaseled his way back into my professional life, turning it upside down, invading, relentless, using others to get himself back in and destroying my life yet again, telling me he would be whatever I wanted him to be, do whatever he wanted me to do, yada, yada, yada. Yes, I am in therapy. Yes, I am on meds. But now this. Nothing in my life is safe from him. Nothing. I could stay and fight. Expose him. But we all know that that is futile. He is like the Borg, lol! "Resistance is futile." Gotta laugh about something right now or I will go bonafide crazy.
Jan 18 - 9PM (Reply to #13)
cynthia (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

They never want to totally lose us

Did you experience total disorientation when you were around him, I mean I would even get lost driving in the city for Gods sake, I think back of a heated discussion we once had and I told him, YOU DO THIS TO ME, you turn everything around, you TRY to hurt me, you TRY to play with my mind and it always ended the same, "If you would have just did what I told you to do this would never have happened". He one time told me I do not try and hurt you, you are a delicate blossom" I looked at him and said, you did not just say that, you cant be serious, you did nothing but treat me like a weed. A Delicate Blossom, where did he pull that one from. Sometimes his act was sooo bad I could see him acting, and I always thought he must really think I am stupid that I dont see through this nice act he is putting on because it wasnt genuine, the act and charm was sooo sweet that it was almost creepy and gave me the chills. I would think who the hell is this person, if you are a SOB then just act like one and dont sugar coat it. Ya I could expose mine too and destroy his life simply by letting his GF listen to all his sick messages he left me through the years and telling me how much he missed me and loved me, it wouldnt destroy his life but he would definately have a hard time explaining that wasnt his voice. Why bother he has already taken up enough of my life and will it undo what he did to me? Will it erase all that? Nothing will change what I went through but moving on with my life so I can leave it behind me. If exposing him wont change a damn thing for ME why should I create more trauma in my life by pissing off a psychopath, quite frankly my nerves arent up to it. I am on meds too, they are the ones that should be on a anti psychotic but we have to tranquilize and calm ourselves so we dont jump out of our skins in the aftermath, I have to take a xanax periodically when I have to remind myself he was nothing but an actor and fraud and when we had sex it was nothing really but rape on his part because he felt NOTHING for me on any level. Wish they had a pill for withdraw pains from a socipath, I was severely addicted to him from trauma bonding and brainwashing, instead of AA meetings they should have PA meetings, ha ha Its not funny because its a horrible, painful ordeal to extract yourself from. Like we said, then when we get through the horrible task of extracting ourselves they want to pull us back in when we are in a weakened state
Jan 19 - 8AM (Reply to #17)
baddream
baddream's picture

What they do to us

Mine is another that will not let go. He is always in the background hovering, can not stand that I have moved on, and I fully expect that he will show up again at some future time. Unfortunately the hovering still has a profound effect on me. I have been doing fabulously without him, but the day I rec'd the birthday message (the one from the "hermit") it did such a number on me that I needed to take xanax for the next couple of nights. I haven't needed to touch any drugs since the last time he sent my son a message.. The sickness that is him is still trapped inside and that is a scary thing. It is almost like there is a button he can push to activate it and set it all in motion again. I have done my absolute best to stay clear of him and he knows I am moving on. It scares me to think he may be planning his next "attack" It has happened before.
Jan 19 - 7PM (Reply to #18)
Amazed
Amazed's picture

Baddream,,comment about the 'hovering'

Yes, this is the most evasive thing of all, their profound, lasting effect on us, even when they aren't there. There is something compounded, with the brainwashing, the screwing with our minds, that creates this ,,and they know it. They know it for years, and do it for years. It is very scary, hard to get a handle on,,why can't one just 'let it go'. I really think there SHOULD be PA groups like mentioned, becacuse it is a very distrinct trauma, that permeates your life. It gets better with time, yet they hover, feeling they can continue to "inflict" up on you. Somehow, it is gratifying to them. I'm just doin' my best to stay out of the way,,run FAST the other direction when he is near,,you know they love that too,,again they think they have the power, when they don't ,,we've just figured them out and don't care a rats a--s to be anywhere near them.
Jan 18 - 10PM (Reply to #14)
Barbara (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

cynthia

Did you experience total disorientation when you were around him OMG yes! If I had just talked to Psycho-Boy the day before, the next day I had to STRUGGLE to do even basic chores like laundry, taking a shower... my therapist said it was some SERIOUS BRAINWASHING he'd done to me. I got lost in the borough I've lived in for 25 years! I couldn't remember basic things... it was HORRIBLE. And I KNEW something was wrong I just couldn't figure out WHAT was wrong!!! And now, even 6 years later - Psycho-Boy says I am just trying to 'duck responsibility for my part in it.' My part in what? LOL ~~~~~~~~~ The truth will set you free... but first it will piss you off - Gloria Steinem Visit My Abuse Website
Jan 18 - 10PM (Reply to #15)
cynthia (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

I know

They do that on purpose too, and you feel like an idiot, getting lost, not listening good, he told me one time I acted like a 16 year old nervous girl, I said no, being around you makes me this way for some reason, and I said I wonder why that is. He told me I was too obsessed about his GF and jealous over nothing, ya right after you did your best to make me feel that way then you turn it all around. I will never forget when he told me once, "I wouldnt get upset if you were screwing your husband and I had to sleep downstairs" and I said, well of course not thats because you dont feel love for me". That is interesting Barbara that after being with them we were a total wreck the next day due to the brainwashing, that makes perfect sense, Its like we were released from the cult and we had to get our balance again of where we were. Such a mind altering and damaging experience.
Jan 19 - 6AM (Reply to #16)
Barbara (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

cynthia

hard to even think when your brain is flooded with cortisol AND oxytocin ~~~~~~~~~ The truth will set you free... but first it will piss you off - Gloria Steinem Visit My Abuse Website
Jan 17 - 7PM
Barbara (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Amazed

You are still not grasping what he is... A NON-HUMAN DISORDERED CREATURE in his head: He's ENTITLED to do what he wants, when he wants, to whoever he wants He DID NOTHING WRONG He HAS NOTHING TO COME CLEAN ABOUT you are an OBJECT not a person - why should he 'come clean' about something that 'in his head' he can UNKNOW doing in the blink of an eye? http://www.lisaescott.com/2009/12/09/you-are-object http://www.lisaescott.com/2009/12/26/cognitive-dissonance-obsessional-thoughts stop the denial... talk to your therapist about this ASAP
Jan 18 - 1PM (Reply to #6)
thewallisnear
thewallisnear's picture

this just scares me so

what now? Im 26 years into the marriage. I did see flags. I stepped on them and covered them with a pretty rug. For years. Now I don't know what to do. I have no job. No skills and am competing with 25 year olds fresh out of college. I don't even have college!! Not to be a poor little me - but what to do now? Are there steps, points, etc in how to cope with this nut for a while longer to be able to get out????????
Jan 19 - 9AM (Reply to #9)
agnesmurphy17
agnesmurphy17's picture

The Wall is Near

You have been married for 26 years. Is the house where that pretty rug is . . . is that house jointly owned? Everything you acquired jointly in the marriage, half is yours. In my state, after a 26 year marriage as a homemaker -- alimony for the rest of your life. (But this is not true in all states.) You need to consult with an attorney in your state. See several. Generally a first consultation is free. Go get some free advice. How about a restraining order to get him out of that house? Is he abusive? Are you afraid of him? Does he physically abuse you? (See definition for physical abuse on internet--it's much broadser than getting slapped, punched, or beaten up. Even pushing, threats . . . many things are physical abuse, particularly if you are afraid.) He wants you to think that you are dependent & useless. No way. Find out your rights in your state. Plan your exit from the marriage carefully, that is, if you decide to leave.
Jan 18 - 2PM (Reply to #7)
Barbara (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

thewallisnear

see a lawyer asap - take some free consults - find a BULLDOG 26 years is considered a "marriage of long duration" - he will owe you pension, property, support, etc... and CALL A DV CRISIS CENTER IMMEDIATELY - see an advocate asap - make a safety exit plan with them - learn the facts - think about temping somewhere with a temp agency - get your skills back up and maybe find a decent job. but GET OUT ~~~~~~~~~ The truth will set you free... but first it will piss you off - Gloria Steinem Visit My Abuse Website
Jan 18 - 3PM (Reply to #8)
thewallisnear
thewallisnear's picture

Thank you, Barbara

The realization hit me like a ton of bricks. I had been in denial and just too busy with other things to stop and really question why is he like this? I am so pleased to have found your site and this one, as well. Now, I will begin the steps to take my life back so he can continue loving himself so much.
Jan 17 - 7PM
baddream
baddream's picture

It will never happen.

I can tell you that after 8 years of going back and forth, "coming clean" does not work and it never happens with a narcissist. N and I had many months of silence, then we would talk, or "come clean", he would make empty promises, and the cycle just went on and on. It was never a normal "breakup". He would just give me the silent treatment and disappear after he devalued and discarded me. He would pretend to come clean when he came back, and say what he thought I wanted to hear, but it wasn't coming from the heart. It was just more manipulation tactics. I have finally accepted that there will be no normal "good bye". N has never said those words to me. He can't. That would mean he could never think of me as "supply" ever again. That is synonymous to giving away all the money in the bank account because he is making tons of money in the stock market. That is how my N saw me. Back up supply. Just a thing. Another thing-- N will never come clean or validate that you meant anything to him. That is what hurts the most at the end.
Jan 17 - 6PM
MsVulcan500
MsVulcan500's picture

Sure it would.

Sure it would make everything easier if they would just come clean. However, we know that will never happen, that we will never get our "closure" from them. It has to come from within. Some call this forgiveness, some call it acceptance. Whatever you call it, it is up to you to get it. NC is a great way to get this rolling. I know it sucks that you are left cleaning up after hurricane N, and that it is hard, ugly, dirty work. But just like if you have some horrendous chore you don't want to tackle just because it is too overwhelming, like cleaning out your basement, you start with one part like taking out the trash (NC) then you tackle something else like donating items(keeping busy) then another like putting items to keep in bins(getting out and doing things) and when it is all said and done you look at your clean basement (your full life) and you feel so proud at what you accomplished. Even though this site is called "All about him", it is really all about us now. These are our lives and we are taking them back!