I STILL believe he can change

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#1 Jul 30 - 12PM
Arwen
Arwen's picture

I STILL believe he can change

I'm just admitting it. This big part of me still thinks he is making changes in his life since I left. I just need re-assurance. Thanks.

Jul 31 - 8PM
Brooke1
Brooke1's picture

Arwen

Hope is very hard to give up on. It took alot for me,and i always used to avoid my friends when theyde start threatening my hope of things getting better with him. It is possible for people to change, and some might when they come to a true crisis? But at least try your best to get strong, and to get a full life and social circle outside of him. Im guessing you've done more than your part to make things work,and then some. Im happy to say, i did my best too,so i have no regrets with my ex. I think most times, it seems that people will not change unless they get miserable enough and find that their way is no longer working for them.
Jul 31 - 12AM
strongerthanever
strongerthanever's picture

Here is one example

Today I met my exN/fiancee friend from college. They met in 1986. She and I met a yr ago when she found the posting I made on a cheaters website. She googled his name to find him to tell him her father died. Long history with them. While he and I was engaged, he contacted her in 2008 and told me she contacted him. IN his emails to her, he never said he was engaged but said he was thinking of moving back over the mountains. A month later, he walks out on me. So, he was planning his escape but checking to see if her marriage was still going on. He used her in the mid 1980's to the mid 1990's as his in between girl. She brough letter he wrote to her in 1987. They were friends and spent a lot of time together in 1986 in their freshman year of college. They fooled around but she was still a virgin. He met a girl and did the silent treatment and ignored her. Well, after a yr with that girl and as it was ending, he wrote to his ex-friend to apologize. He wrote this in his letter: "I am sorry for the pain I have caused you. You are the most sincere, kindest, giving, person I know." People, this is exactly what he told me in 2007 and 2008!!! Word for Word when he was trying to get me to buy his bullshit and crawl back. He at times would say to change things up: "I am sorry for the pain and dissappointment." Do they change? HELL NO! As this old friend of his said to me today, he is a sociopath and narcissist for sure. He has been perfecting his game for years. But, he recycles the same lines of bullshit to women. We compared stories of his past and he lied to all of us. He said the same thngs to us both. There were so many woman who believed him and probably still out there thinking it was their fault. It was something lacking in them (since he would put the blame on us women) as to why he didn't see them married or how he could stay in the relationship. THEY DO NOT CHANGE!!! They only find different angles to get what they want with the least amount of work possible. My new friend gave me this book to read, The Stranger Beside Me. Ann Rule wrote it about Ted Bundy. My friend said that the sociopathic traits and patterns in the book is how our guy was and still is. How frightening is that? He is similar to Ted Bundy!!!! She told me about his patterns starting from 1986...the same with me from 2006-2009! He repeated the same patterns with women from college. He was in college longer than 4 yrs because he could not figure out what he wanted to do. He would get excited about a goal, get bored, and change. He did this with cars and women. Once my friend told my exN in 2008 that she was happily married and had a little girl, he never contacted her again. She was no use to him anymore! She was no use when he found other girls and would stop seeing her or talking to her. Sometimes he had her hang out with the new gf and the new gf didn't know they were at once sexual. I even asked my exN if he ever slept with her and he said NO! He LIED! He knew I would see him as a player and a disgusting human being for doing that to women and not seeing anything wrong with it. You see, he knew he was doing things wrong but twisted it in his head so he didn't have to face it. He believed his own lies. Isn't it true that if you believe your lies, it is the truth? When they were still friends in 2000, she was engaged and invited him to her wedding. He never showed up, never called, wrote, sent a card...to a "dear friend"...someone he slept with and she gave up her virginity to him (finally after him manipulating her), and known for 14 yrs!!! Who does this to a "friend"? Someone that is a Narc and sociopath. As we talked today we agreed his patterns and character is too engrained and there is no possibility of change. He changes his angles on women. He finds out what is important to you, what your weaknesses are and mirrors you. It may look like change but it is all a game. When I read the letters today, I saw the patterns. I felt absolutely nothing! Yay! No emotions came up because i know he is a sick fother mucker and do not want someone in my life who uses people, destroys them and walks away with no empathy or conscious.
Jul 30 - 4PM
Susan32
Susan32's picture

"The more things change, the more they stay the same"

I used to think the ex-Psych prof capable of change. He painted me as some angel who would "inspire him to live a better life." He would idealize me as some St. Monica whose tears would lead him to his conversion, or being like the spirited Natasha who becomes completely subservient to Pierre, leading him to become a family man rather than going to the brothels. During the final D&D, he blamed all of his behavior on ME. I saw him get worse over 4 years... and I speak as a student, not as an ex-wife or ex-girlfriend. He's still obsessed with "War and Peace" (he was obsessed with it before I met him)... so I'm not expecting change on his part. He's a tenured toddler. Physically, he's a man pushing 50;mentally, he's the same age as my nephew...who's nearly 2. Over the hill, but still in the cradle.
Jul 30 - 12PM
strivingforhealing (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Change happens only with deep deep introspection and humility

Does he have this? I look at how hard it is for me to change something small in me- like I have tried for 10 years to wake up earlier- and I can't master it... I have anxiety and obsessive thinking- and I have been in therapy for several years over it- being very open, humble, inquisitive about what it takes to change this wounding in me. Does he have this? NO ONE CHANGES without deep willingness to look at themselves with total gut wrenching honesty...Does he have this?
Jul 30 - 1PM (Reply to #11)
Reddley
Reddley's picture

Right! "NO ONE CHANGES

Right! "NO ONE CHANGES without deep willingness to look at themselves with total gut wrenching honesty" There is nothing wrong with him. It's everyone else that has the problem.
Jul 30 - 1PM (Reply to #10)
strivingforhealing (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

AND change only happens with WORK

work....doing....doing....seeking help....my first post only spoke to 1/2 of the equation needed to change- which is honesty and openness about one's inner pain and issues..sounds like your guy is good at this part...then the second and just as important part is DOING THE WORK...being accountable to someone...therapy....psychiatry...making actual concrete changes in one's behavior, beliefs and relationships... Is he doing this?? My N was great at calling himself a "trainwreck in relationships"...but he never once tried to change this..ever....sob stories only get you so far....it takes real courage to stop sobbing and do something about the wreckage one causes themself and others...
Jul 30 - 12PM (Reply to #9)
Arwen
Arwen's picture

Striving...you are so right.

Striving...I don't know actually if he has it within him, but the thing that does tell me he wants to change is the fact that he has not responded to my breaking NC only to say hi and one big fight in the beginning. He knows he should never had had an affair with a married woman especially one in a troubled marriage and he knows he fucked over hundreds if not thousands of women in his life as well as others around him. He confided all of this to me in moments of real shame and sadness. He was in a horrible state in his life with many problems facing him as a result of his life's behavior until that point. I guess what goes on with me is that I believe he has actually been a catalyst to some very good changes in myself and I think I was also a catalyst to him. I am probably completely wrong about the latter though. But in a way I do commend him for not responding to me because he knows I love him a lot and that it really is not good for me to be having an affair. But, I will never know if he can really turn around because I will never be around him again. It was quite frankly, a very healing relationship for both of us in the sense that he and I have some similar childhood issues that I am sure we were playing out with each other and we also did that as teens when we first met but I didn't realize it back then. I would like to think that I affected a catalyst to him. He said constantly that I did. I can only hope. But what you said about me making my own changes - yes, I started to make changes on my own in my early twenties and even late teens without anyone being a catalyst. I had a severe anxiety attack and I promptly sought help and have since. I have sought help for every problem I have ever had. He has not and that is fact.
Jul 30 - 12PM
onwithmylife
onwithmylife's picture

Arwen

Read OUR collective lips, NEVER,NEVER and guess what NEVER, mine had 5 failed relationships, I was #5, 3 of them were marriages, how much of a track record do you need and you do not even have to have that many failures under your belt. thinking that keeps you stuck, when i let go of that belief, I was free to live my life and actually feel sorrow and sadness for the man, because he is simply EXISTING... as a fake persona I might add......... hope this helps.
Jul 30 - 12PM (Reply to #2)
Arwen
Arwen's picture

It does help. Thank you.

It does help. Thank you. Big tears running down my face. I am in so much shock still. I can't believe it. It's three quarters of a year since I've seen him and still in shock. and such grief. I'm so ashamed and embarassed that I still feel this way.
Jul 30 - 8PM (Reply to #7)
58 and going strong
58 and going strong's picture

Watch Sam Vaknin!

Sorry that you are still so sad, but it is a necessary and healthy part of the grieving and healing process and you have to take all the time you need. No need to ever feel embarassed or ashamed about your feelings - they are yours, you are entitled to them, and they are likely to pass faster as you can accept and own them.--- Otherwise, never, never, never expect or hope for the narc to change - that is the same omnipotent wishful thinking of a child that the narcs live by. And deep inside you know that it's not going to happen. Sam Vaknin has some good new clips on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/user/samvaknin#g/u
Jul 30 - 12PM (Reply to #3)
lillymarch
lillymarch's picture

I wish my ex-N could change too

But I know he can't. And I can't live in that pain any longer. At one point during our last and final break up he text: if I have a problem like you say I do, why aren't you standing by my side, helping me through it? Then I said: how many years of my life do I sacrifice for YOU?? There comes a time where I stop supporting you and your sickness. I'm done. It's time for me to heal and actually LIVE MY LIFE!! I spent 18 years 'dealing' with this man's disfunction. It's time for me to love and care for me and HAVE SOME FUN!! When I catch myself thinking of him, I stop. It's time to focus on me and my children. Thinking of you Arwen, I know this is very painful.
Jul 30 - 12PM (Reply to #4)
Arwen
Arwen's picture

Thanks Lily. You know what's

Thanks Lily. You know what's even more painful? To think that my ex N is changing AND that my husband the covert narc is going to change and that I am now thinking it may be possible that my husband is gay. Talk about suicidal.
Jul 30 - 1PM (Reply to #5)
Sunafterrain
Sunafterrain's picture

Change is real WORK

I would like to add something to this discussion. 1. change is DIFFICULT. It's even difficult for HEALTHY people to change a habit or an addiction and that's ALL an pathological person we've been involved with is: AN ADDICTION. All of us are strong because we ARE changing, the biggest change is NC!!! Pathologicals have no boundaries and are incapable of NC UNLESS they have other supply! 2. Healthy people RECOGNIZE and have INSIGHT about what NEEDS to be changed. I have the most HORRIFIC background and my choices have been AWFUL! If I shared what my choices were as a result of my pathological upbringing, you'd believe ME to be pathological too, but ya know what? I know that I'm not, even with all the issues that I have because I WANT change, DESPERATELY. THIS makes all the difference in the world. I see how my behavior and choices to be with pathological partners has caused great pain to my children, my friends, and to myself. Just because you have made really crappy choices in the past, no matter how horrendous, doesn't mean you CAN"T change it. This is where we and pathological people PART WAYS! this is a growth lesson for me. It is painful, excrutiatingly so, the shame and guilt is unbearable at times, but I need to feel those things so I don't make the same mistakes AGAIN. Real change also involves being humble enough to SEE a therapist, particularly when it comes to a personality disorder! And we know they WONT" do it unless it's to further an agenda and they don't stick with it. They also do not feel the shame, remorse, regret that any of us ARE capable of. If those very elements are NOT present, change is impossible, the only change that a Narc makes is which victim he's playing games with this week and it's not limited to his partners. I struggle with the change thing out of my exN too because eight months after the D&D, he is married again. He has known her only just a few months. COULD I get married that fast? NO WAY!!! I'm single and it's by choice. I'm in no hurry to go out and distract myself with another man and potentially another pathological. I'm content to work on myself. It's hard to remember that they can't change or to focus on that, or to let go of the idea that they can change because of the hurt and pain as well as the pseudo facade they put on in public. I totally get that, but logically, I do know this is true. If you cannot stop long enough to reflect, to gather yourself, your emotions, grieve, gain insight, you've got a HUUUUUUUGE problem! And ALL narcs do. Please don't second guess yourself with regards to this man.
Jul 30 - 2PM (Reply to #6)
Arwen
Arwen's picture

Sunafterrain, just as I was

Sunafterrain, just as I was finishing writing what I did above I tried to take a nap and as I did I couldn't, thinking that I could not believe what I had just written about this psycho who only two months ago called me a c-nt. OMG. Look how sucked in I am to these PD's. Like you I grew up with not one but two of them, and dates only the most pahtological of them, and am now married to one of the strangest beings on the planet but much healthier than my other choices because I have been doing the work for 22 years in therapy and will need to do so the rest of my life. The pain and the work is excruciating and you are so right Sun...that N will NEVER EVER have the guts to do what I do. Ever. Thank you.