Every Member Would Benefit from Reading this Article

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#1 Mar 29 - 11PM
Anonymous (not verified)
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Every Member Would Benefit from Reading this Article

How and Why a Psychopath Pushes Your Buttons...
by: Claudia Moscovici

http://psychopathyawareness.wordpress.com/2011/01/24/how-and-why-a-psych...

I understand this all takes time...however, if you can really understand and accept what is being reiterated over and over again, what this particular author is saying and what some of you already know cognitively...I really think more moments of clarity will ensue.

I have always held, and have stated and in doing my reading today over and over again, have happened upon many bloggers, therapists, whomever that deal with this issue repeat over and over...that YES it will take time to heal -but the key moment the pivotal moment in our recovery is when we can accept the PATHOLOGY and what HE IS...until then one is stuck in the circular motion.

I believe that even within the circular motion we have good and bad days - but the HOOVERS...those of us who have been at it a while...and I note there must be a double moon or something out there and based upon certain signs I think I am due for a hoover...

BUT the hoover won't shake me because I own, know and have accepted who he is. I don't hate him...but it is what it is...

My sisters and brothers...you can get there. It takes a little knocking of your own behinds to get in line.

Please read this article and really really own it. With this particular issue, no one is re-inventing the wheel, there are no "exceptions" these disordered individuals follow a very predictable script...we should not be surprised, shocked or react as we know already what they are going to do...and why they're doing it.

SOI - I am glad you have more strength today...Sara..., someone else today had an issue...and you know we may very well have a number of hoovers...BUT we can be prepared, we can make the best efforts to shut them down...lock them out...So please...if you want to heal..get serious about it and really discipline yourself and do your best to keep NC. It really is what will release you...yes, it hurts, yes it's hard but if you allow it...it will torment you for as long as you do.

We have all cheated, fallen off the wagon...this is not a shame lecture...this is a plea to get serious about it. AND even if you are weak and still working on it...really try to OWN this article so at least you can look at the hoover for what it is and not wonder...or ask questions, or engage in magical thinking...YOU WILL KNOW the answer without second guessing.

Hugs!

Mar 30 - 11AM
IncognitoBurrito
IncognitoBurrito's picture

Michele

Good article, and great site. Lots of information all over it.
Mar 30 - 8AM
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

If you read my position...

I said OWN the article...own it because the hoovers are inveitable...if you know what to expect and understand what the hoover is about you aren't taken... AN ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure... THEN I said because they are sick bastards, we need to get serious about the NC... BECAUSE we're all here chatty cathy's calling them narcs but if you look at the big picture...we really don't know...AND HARE who has focused on Narcs has said...essentially the same thing I said...in so many words... Narcs, Psychopaths...don't matter what you call them...they're both dangerous...getting hit by a bus is no worse than getting hit by a cab... And when an empathy chip is missing...where is the limit on how far one will go for harm? AND we are deluding ourselves if we think we can answer that... THAT's the POINT...
Mar 30 - 7AM
Happy1
Happy1's picture

Thank you!

Thank you!
Mar 30 - 12AM
Arwen
Arwen's picture

Do not agree with the emphasis on NC

I need to say something about No Contact. It is usually very important to maintain that. But what I have found, and truly found, is that my involvement with the most virulent narc in my life was ONLY dissolved when I did have contact and did it until I was "struck" one day in an unforgettable moment where I felt nothing but complete disgust and complete unabashed awareness of who this buffoon really was. It was ONLY then that I was completely able to let go of all my "feelings" for him, and they were replaced, finally, with indifference, revulsion, and a lightness that cannot be compared to anything. So, I believe that information is extremely important for most people barring women who are in a dangerous situation physically which is often the case with narcs. We seek contact with the narcissist until we learn who he really is, and I see everyone on this board either making the contact or talking about the narc incessantly. So, I don't think this is a crime to make contact when you are truly unable to make the real and lasting break from the narcissist that can only come with the full and final recognition of who and what he is and that comes unfortunately sometimes through repeated experiences with them. We are human and contact is normal. There is a time for no contact and there is also a time for contact so that we have to face the answers we are really searching for that ultimately lead us to the indifference we so want.
Mar 30 - 7AM (Reply to #7)
jen79
jen79's picture

I have to agree on this

I am Mrs. broke NC a thousand times. Mrs is too weak to stay away. But you know what, instead of beating myself up, that I am so weak blahblahblah, I see now, I dont have to regret on single bit, cause every new contact showed me more of who he was. Almost exactly 2 years ago was when I last saw him in person. The first year I spend with trying him back and avoiding the pain, then I just followed all the advices from other people, to "just move on" and "get back to life". I did my best on this. And you know what, it didnt help one bit, cause the pain was still there, just supressed, I got terrible stomach problems, my skin broke out like I was a teenager, and I looked horrible, while trying to put a happy sticker on my face so everyone around me was happy and proud of me. Yeah, she finally moved on. NOT. And so I thank god, for giving me the opportunity and the narc too, to have thousand last looks, until I could accept that he is just the way he is. If breaking NC didnt happen, he would have stayed forever in my mind, as my long lost love, as the ONE, my heart and passion captured forever with him. So I thank god, I followed my heart on this one, broke NC, let him talk the talk, watch his face again on skype, with all my new awareness. And I can say now, I have finally reached a point where I can forgive and let go. Acceptance is the key. But it takes a while. Everyone has to find its own way to deal with it.
Mar 30 - 8AM (Reply to #8)
gettinbetter
gettinbetter's picture

jen jen

Yes. I believe this was the case for me. You see for some of us being in a state of deprivation drives us. Just like for some with obsessive thoughts if they say stop then it fuels them more. Depends on the person. The bottom line is the nc has to come from a desire within to protect yourself not simply from someone telling you to do this for your own. Some simply can't integrate that. its just words a on a paper. Kind of like how the narc can't integrate emotions. Each person has to reach that state where nature takes over and our innate sense to protect ourselves kicks in I'm there now. This is how it happened round one as well there was one big final blow up and nothing was the same again
Mar 30 - 12AM (Reply to #2)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Patiencegoal

My last paragraph stated: We have all cheated, fallen off the wagon...this is not a shame lecture...this is a plea to get serious about it. AND even if you are weak and still working on it...really try to OWN this article so at least you can look at the hoover for what it is and not wonder...or ask questions, or engage in magical thinking...YOU WILL KNOW the answer without second guessing. However Patiencegoal, you are quite new...I expect you will be flirting with NC until you have the "AHA" moment; as we all have...however, in the process, there is a certain amount of reading and research we do when we are D&D'd...not sure if you've been yet...it's not pretty and it's not pleasant...it has led a lot of us to think we had gone mad...it has left us empty shells, it has driven SOME to suicide...this is nothing to play with. If you read the article, you will note...this man may hoover you the rest of your life. So, for that reason...many of us are still struggling with CD despite knowing the facts...I still struggle with CD from time to time... BUT that does not mean I am not going to raise the issue and try to REMIND people so that the CD is a bit lessened. There are Vets here that have been here longer than Me...some a year in...two years in and they appreciate the reminders when members post. Last night to today it appeared to be "Hoover" season and we saw what the effects are when WE forget...and we all forget because after a while those rose colored glasses come on and we remember the good and it just feels better forgetting...until they screw us again...but this time, instead of salt on the wound...they go grab the ammonia and mix it with chlorox. So yes, I clearly know that people fall off I've admitted it myself...but I'm serious about NC and others are also, and I think we all are and I believe this article clearly gives a very good incentive to get serious and stay serious as well as give a little more of an incentive to those who are struggling try to squash the magical thinking...Thousands of professionals cannot be wrong. If the shrinks are washing their hands...we hold no magic to change the situation...there are a many cases where the breaking of NC ended up in death. This isn't something you flirt with...you get serious about it. There is not a message of shaming...this is a message of helping and motivating at least from my perspective and trying to get people to the other side...
Mar 30 - 12AM (Reply to #3)
Arwen
Arwen's picture

response to your comment about NC

I am thirty years into living with and leaving Narcissists and I am not new at all to D and D. And, I agree, that when a narc is a psychopath and exhibits any danger whatsoever physically, NC is an absolute MUST. The article you presented is one on psycopathy, and while all psychopaths are narcisissts, not all narcissists are psychopaths. As to the danger of suicide by confronting the demeaning behavior of the narc after attempting contact, I have also been in that state and it's the bottom of the bottom. But, what I have found, is that we may often be suicidal when NC is in place, and sometimes, and that is a rare sometimes, I have sought out information for the narc or engaged with him again so that I could see him for who he really was, and I found that truth to be something I could handle. So in general, as I have said, NC should be the rule. But recently I made the mistake of ending a relationship with a narc before I was actually ready to do so, and it caused me to feel suicidal actually. I did not have enough information yet to walk out, I did not ask him the questions I needed to ask and therefore did not have the opportunity to get the reaction I feel that I needed to see in order to truly once and for all get me away from him. So once again, I take NC very, very seriously. I do feel, however, that we may feel suicidal even without contact and that if we do reach out to the narc, it is for a very good reason. You are absolutely in the right place with all of us completely removing ourselves from a psychopath, who is quantitatively different in the diagnostic code from a narcissist.
Mar 30 - 5AM (Reply to #6)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Patience...question...

I'm not clear on something and I am trying to understand your point... I am thirty years into living with and leaving Narcissists I believe you when you say this, but you then say: I am not new at all to D and D. And, I agree, that when a narc is a psychopath and exhibits any danger whatsoever physically, NC is an absolute MUST. When these people refuse treatment how the hell does one know the exact diagnosis? I assume you've been fortunate to get an official diagnosis so you could distinguish if your narc was dangerous vs. a dangerousER Pyscopath? See, NEITHER has empathy that means both can chew you up and spit you out...the difference...yea, one might try to wear your skin while watching Dancing with the Stars while the other will just do it to your head...but uh...how pray tell do we know the degree of danger? Lacking in empathy is lacking in empathy and they both lack empathy...so what gives? The article you presented is one on psycopathy, and while all psychopaths are narcisissts, not all narcissists are psychopaths. Yes, I know that read that article at least a few hundred times and like I said, I am of the opinion that the only difference is one would wear my skin while the other would scramble my brain...take your pick...and at the end of the day, it is all pretty much word salad what they call them...if you end up harmed you're harmed...you're painting a half pregnant scenario here...somewhat like getting hit by a bus is worse than getting hit by a cab... As to the danger of suicide by confronting the demeaning behavior of the narc after attempting contact, I have also been in that state and it's the bottom of the bottom. Here is where I'm questioning...confronting the demeaning behavior of the narc...confronting...HOW...it is like saying you're confronting a wall...NO RESPONSE...NO EMPATHY so confronting WHAT? NO, you're confronting yourself because a relationship with a narc is essentially a relationship with yourself in another physical form...THEY MIRROR YOU! What do you mean by confront...confront within yourself explore the issues or confront the Narc? Please explain what you mean...because either way if you know the basics of what you know and you say you've been at this thirty years...what else is there to confirm? I don't understand...you are calling them narcs, you are not questioning if they are...at least that's not what I'm getting or are you saying essentially that in the stage when you are not sure you test them out? WELL that stands to reason BUT once you have determined he/she/it is a narc...then you are going against NC because...what...? This to me is contradictory and totally unclear...falling off the wagon is falling off the wagon lets call a spade a spade...but I"m not getting knowing their a narc, then going nc then breaking nc to see what? It's called falling off the wagon...and yea, it happens, no argument there. But, what I have found, is that we may often be suicidal when NC is in place, and sometimes, and that is a rare sometimes, I have sought out information for the narc or engaged with him again so that I could see him for who he really was, and I found that truth to be something I could handle. Do you mean in an effort to bring him to light? when you say seeking info for the narc...not clear...and I hate to sound cold and brutal, but if that is the case...if you feel suicidal, and I have to say this as a moderator because although not a professional I have an ethical obligation. I cannot encourage behavior that can be detrimental. I cannot say, oh yes, keep exploring and seeking out your narc..it's okay, go no contact when ever you feel like it...can't say that because whatever we call them THEYRE dangerous! BOTTOM LINE THEY CANNOT LOVE, THEY DON'T HAVE EMPATHY...EMPATHY RULES CONSCOUS LACKING IN THOSE THINGS..ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE...so, I will say, sure I get you fall off the wagon...but I encourage NC and if you are practicing NC and you feel suicidal you need to get to the nearest psych emergency department. AND I can say this in good conscious because...telling you and encouraging you to go NC will at least prevent the POSSIBILITY that this OFFICIALLY UNDIAGNOSED NARCISSIST/PSYCHOPATH/SOCIOPATH/ ANTISOCIAL PERSONALITY DISORDERED/ BORDERLINE WHATEVER THE HECK YOU WANT TO CALL IT will not physically harm you. WHEREAS, if I am casual on the nc and say, hey whatever, and someone gets their ass beat within two inches of thier life...I guess I'd have to say I really suck as a moderator trying to help folks. Granted, therapists can suck too but I'm just going by what the majority of the literature says...don't kill the messenger, but I ain't gonna coddle, and embrace not stepping up to NC although I acknowledge there are slip ups...and I myself have been guilty BUT...if my approach and statement twists you in knots you should have been here a few months back...you almost had a fit of anxiety just admitting you slipped...we had a thread about that the other day...you'd needed a shot of whiskey just to type the N in NC...and it was self imposed shame I admit...LMAO! AT least that is how I FELT...but I know that those who welcomed us as newcomers also had their hearts in the right place and were doing their very best to support and protect us...and they will always have a special place in my heart because they were the ones who saved me. Them and everyone here today. So in general, as I have said, NC should be the rule. But recently I made the mistake of ending a relationship with a narc before I was actually ready to do so, and it caused me to feel suicidal actually. And I can understand and empathize with that and I am sorry that you are in pain...but I do want to ask you...do you agree that if we want to call him a narcissist he lacks empathy the ability to love and remorse? AND if so, do you think that those qualities can demonstrate a potential of life threatening harm? AND if so, does it matter what we call them? Are they or are they not dangerous? I did not have enough information yet to walk out, I did not ask him the questions I needed to ask and therefore did not have the opportunity to get the reaction I feel that I needed to see in order to truly once and for all get me away from him. I am curious, what were you looking for? Were you doubting he was a narc in the first place? If that is the case, then it would stand to reason before you had the AHA moment you might not be NC because you didn't know. MY position stands for those who congitively know their partner is a NARC. So once again, I take NC very, very seriously. I do feel, however, that we may feel suicidal even without contact and that if we do reach out to the narc, it is for a very good reason. Well, rather than reach out to the narc, I have to be blunt...it think reaching out to the nearest psych emergency immediately is safer and better. Why? Well they can stabalize you and while I have issues with the medical establishment...I will say they have to take an oath to do no harm...the Narc on the other hand, he's not bound by any ethics, principals or laws...he's a universe onto himself...so I can't find a "good" reason to reach out to a narc once you know he's a narc...again, do folks get weak...yea sure...but know you're putting yourself at risk...picking at the scab, digging it deeper and each time, he'll just screw your head up some more...possibly to the point of no return... You are absolutely in the right place with all of us completely removing ourselves from a psychopath, who is quantitatively different in the diagnostic code from a narcissist. Unfortunatley, that is still very much up to debate as the APA hasn't come to a conclusion yet, and they play word salad too every few years...all we have right now is theory and a whole bunch of folks that want to sound in the game. What we do know...they lack empathy, emotions, remorse and conscious...the rest, I could give a crap what you call it. Finally, NPD was only made a diagnosis in 1967 and the professionals have been all over the map...sociopath, psychopath, ASPD...and so on and even today whatever you read...there is a new distinction but they all come to the same bottom line. Below is an article citing a Dr. Hare who allegedly has done extensive research into psychopathy...and how the major problem for psychopaths what makes them so dangerous is...NARCISSISM.... http://narcissists-suck.blogspot.com/2007/01/narcissist-or-psychopathboth-are-human.html
Mar 30 - 2AM (Reply to #4)
ifinallygotit
ifinallygotit's picture

I agree but

it is sometimes difficult to know if they are and N or a Psychopath or both - I have studied the differences and mine was a definite N not a P - except in the realm of lacking the ability to understand the other's feelings. i think breaking contact varies from person to person re: how negative or traumatic the consequences will be. Tonight the board helped me stay no contact - I am about to travel on a big trip which is bringing up old stuff and my N always helped me and was the person I depended on to see me off. I need to handle my anxiety about transitioning without him around. But, on the other hand, I broke NC a few weeks ago and it was actually helpful to me and did not traumatize as it helped me understand where he is at with me - which was driving me nuts not knowing after he stopped speaking to me. I find the snooping I have done on the internet far more harmful to me - although I did not realize he was an N until I snooped on his FB and saw him grinning like a maniac showing off a new GF who is hookerish in appearance - I thought it was so bizarre that he needed to promote his image as a stud that I started reasearching personality disorders and ended up here. That picture spoke a thousand words - we had not even formally broken up (after 12 years) and he could not wait to show himself off to his 700 FB fans with the GF, and other pictures to make himself look richer and bigger than he is. However, Michele shared a great article and these fellows are dangerous even if they are not violent - you never know what pysch damage they can make or whether we could snap and never recover. M ex N has a sweet quiet passive aggressive MO so I am not afraid of him on a physical level - but his actions blew my mind...
Mar 30 - 5AM (Reply to #5)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Ifnallygotit...

Again, very happy you were able to stay strong...baby steps...I am in a similar situation, I only saw the rage once; however, knowing what I know, knowing he lacks empathy, remorse all of that...knowing he's a master manipulator, knowing he can lie like a rug...knowing I never knew him, knowing he doens't know himself... I have no yardstick to measure anything...and so must err on the side of caution... Moreover, he's not even diagnosed so how the heck do I know if he's an N or a Psychopath...I don't...and not too many of us here can cite they have knowledge of an offcial diagnosis. AND the stats are...there are 60 million victims of psychopaths...I'd say that is a pretty high number...