agnesmurphy17 (and others)...is he a P?

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#1 Jul 7 - 7PM

Leah2

agnesmurphy17 (and others)...is he a P?

...why would they leave when there is no other woman? How do they decide that you are no longer giving them enough supply? Could it be that they are a psychopath not an N?

agnesmurphy17 in particular, your reply to my post of my ex-husband leaving me (5 months ago after 5 years of marriage) on the street, as well as your response regarding his likelihood of being a psycopath, have really made me think a lot.

So, I have been reading and re-reading many of the posts here to see if he is just an N or something more. The thing is that almost everyone mentions cheating or another woman.

Mine lied for sure to others (laying the trap for a year by telling people all sorts of things, including that I did not want to have a baby and hated children.....all this when we had JUST been to the doctor to confirm that I was pregnant; I later miscarried just after he left, and he could not be bothered to contact me even once!). He always told me how much he loved kids and wanted them with me, and just wanted them to love and be loved by him???

After he left I confronted him saying that I did not understand how he could lie to people about this as well as other stories about me hating his family (so not true! his mother is an N and hates me, but I am really close to others in his family and was always kind to her); about me being completely career focused, and never wanting to quit my amazing, highly-regarded job (yes, I worked hard, but no more than him. also, I promised him that I would quit my job by the end of last year and did so, deciding to look for a job that required less hours so I could focus on us). Can you believe he said "well, I'll give you the baby part. But the rest of what you have said is lies"?? He is still lying, saying that I am stalking him (all I have done is tried to call him, and he ignores them). This is someone who called me 10 times a day when we were together. Completely mind-numbing. I thought I was going crazy. I tried to talk to him but it kept going around in circles! He just looked blank and said "you did not make me happy". This is a man who told me every morning that he was the happiest person alive and, while holding me at night, that I was the best thing in his life.

So, back to the original point of this post.

1) have others sensed that this is worse than narcissism, and that their ex could be really dangerous (without ever having laid a hand on them, but just got a feeling that there was something darker in their that the ex could not express?

2) did any of your exes leave without their being another supply source (actually, in this case, I think his supply was a new, very senior job that I helped him get) but not a woman

3) have any of yours "hibernated" before moving on to the next perfect woman. This is what he did before meeting me--hibernated for a year and then met someone who he was obsessed with but she dumped him after 2 weeks, as she got scared. Then I came along!

#2 Jul 10 - 2PM

agnesmurphy17

Leah2

"...why would they leave when there is no other woman?" How do you know there was no other woman? I reread your story. The man moved out while you were away after "undisclosed" problems in the relationship. But dude sat in therapy smiling & holding your hand NEVER discussing the troubles he wept about sometimes & spoke of often enough in private. When he moved out, you did not know where he lived. And, you wrote he stopped initiating sex. Seems likely that he was with another romantic interest. Your undisclosed problems were that that perhaps you did not stimulate him as much as the new interest. But, how can a perfect person say "I'm cheating, I want out, I'm sorry." No. It's always got to be your fault. ANd you know that he makes it out to be your fault because he told others about your problems & that after he left you without explanation, and the only place you knew where he was was at work, he left you no choice but to go there -- and then he says you're stalking him. "How do they decide that you are no longer giving them enough supply?" Because you do not fulfill the fantasy any more. You're asking too much from them--to be real maybe. Or, they find a better source of supply. "Could it be that they are a psychopath not an N?" Who knows Really, even for shrinks, such diagnoses are really difficult to make. I know that I have spent a year or more reading everything I can can about psychopathology. It was a way to understand him. So I could no longer blame myself & so I would no longer feel like the crazy one. After reading & reading, I know what resonates as true for my N. Anyhow, a psychopath lacks empathy. DOes not sound like your man has any empathy. How could he walk away like that? He does not seem to be able to put himself in your shoes to imagine how you must feel after being so cruelly abandoned when you were so happy & in love with him. Further, the man lacks a conscience. He feels no guilt over derailing your world. And, he bad mouths you to everybody when you are being the normal one seeking an explanation as to why he left with NO forwarding address. This man brings new meaning to the phrase "in cold blood." Something so snake like. SO evil. This man planned his departure for almost a year. He laid the groundwork & snapped the trap & walked away. That's how an article I read written by a man who was proud to be a psychopath described how it's done. Spring the trap & walk away leaving them stunned at how they have been taken. & the P writing the article had contempt for Narcissists because Ns scream & rant & rave & are histrionic. Your guy seems to have been very, very controlled. Ns & borderlines really become fragmented & disorganized & lose self-control. And, seems like he kept his stuff quite compartmentalized after 5 years of marriage. SOunds like a very speedy divorce. No shared property, no children, nothing really binding which needed lawyers to sort out & court dates. Dude had this planned all along. I had a friend who was blissfully married for over 10 year. He never had a joint bank account with her. They did own a house. But this guy just up an vanished when she was pregnant. He was no longer in love. They had problems. And then she found out, he was with another woman. But, he would not admit that. She was so devastated because she had loved him so much & really did everything to make him happy. Even to sacrifice her interests to his. But, when he was finished, he moved on. I am really, really sorry for you. Your situation is so HORRIBLE because YOU were happy & content with this man. You have no idea why he left. He offered no explanation. He deleted you. This is the cruelest thing another human being can do. Silence. Total black out silence. Like a child who vanishes. One never knows what happened to the beloved child. No explanations. Maybe they will turn up alive one day? Maybe a corpse will be discovered? Sometimes decades pass & no explanation. Rather your situation. Far better, for me, to be beaten. At least I have bruises to look at. SOmething to show somebody. For you, it's like it all never existed. Like he never saw you. And, I did leave my N. My choice. It was different for me. And he acted so broken hearted around me. Emotional blackmail. Look, from the day I left he had a NW. He kept it a secret from me. They were planning a marriage, going abroad together, & she was moving into the house I still owned with him. But whenever I spoke to him about terms of the divorce, he was saying he did not want a divorce, this was my idea. They lie. And, the NW--she left him. She contacted me. The lies are unbelievable. One cannot even imagine the layers upon layers these pathologicals operate on. I have found out stuff about my dude which I did not know. And vice versa for this woman. But, what is most interesting, it the "manufactured mythology." On subject x he would tell her the exact opposite that he told me! I think my whole relationship was a lie. And, in one aspect my N was very cold-blooded--extracting money from me. And the other woman as well. But, my N has money & is very successful & well-employed. Oh, the woman who followed me. She's a psychiatrist! He fooled her for awhile as well. That's how good he is. But, in the end, she too agrees with me, psychopath. So I have been validated. So sorry. Hope you find peace sometime soon. You really have it rough. You are in a vacuum. Isolated from this man & his history & his family. Five years & he has vanished from your life & you have had to relocate geographically in the aftermath. You've lost your bearings quite literally. Our spouses & family ties give us out place in the world. It all vanished one day for you with an explanation.

#3 Jul 10 - 2PM (Reply to #15)

Leah2

agnesmurphy17

Once again, thank you for your logic, your thoughtfulness and, honestly-speaking, your validation. Who knows what he is, but you are absolutely correct about this being planned. You know, the divorce was easy peasy. We had NOTHING joint at all. We had a minimal bank account together just to cover rent and bills (he insisted that everything else be separate), a pre-nup (actually, my idea but he said he wanted one too), no house together (he refused to buy one, saying first that he did not want to buy where we were living, then saying that he wanted to buy eventually in his home country), when I suggested a small summer house, he said that it only complicates things to have any joint assets. So, nothing at all. Even furniture...most of it was mine. The stuff we bought together was almost nothing, and I left all of that for him. When we went on holiday together, if he saw a carpet or painting that he liked "for our home", he paid himself...saying that it was better if one of us bought things, and not to pay together for these things! So, you are right...he set this up so he had no ties to me at all. Yes, I feel like my whole life has been derailed, but have to remember that this happens to pregnant women with no source of income. At least I have a new job, and no children (though, again, I wish some days that at least I had had one with him--then I think about what that would imply for having to be in contact in the future, and how he would control it). I feel like the bruises in my mind and psyche are huge, but have nothing to show anyone. Mutual friends who were initially his friends will not talk to me, so I know he must have told them horrible things (when I gave him so very very much from the very start) and painted himself as the injured angel who is so sad "that we could not make it work". I am not sure when I will find peace. I broke down today and left him a message!!! Yes, I broke my one week NC. Of course, as usual, he did not answer the phone. But I felt that I had to tell him that I was human, that I knew he was ill, and that whatever he told me about loving me made no sense since you do not treat anyone as he treated me.

#4 Jul 10 - 3PM (Reply to #16)

agnesmurphy17

Yep!

'painted himself as the injured angel who is so sad "that we could not make it work".' Mine set me up. Forced me to leave. He was becoming so abusive. Also, the woman who followed me, she told me that she found an e-mail he wrote to the woman who preceded me. He wrote it 10 months before I left him. Writing that he was unhappy with me & wanted to get back together with her. My N forced me to leave. From about the time of this e-mail, my N started escalating the abuse. Also, he was constantly demanding a divorce about 2-3 times a month. He refused to speak to me about 33% of the time. (I kept count of the 'days of silence' in a calendar.) Finally, I agreed to a divorce one day when he asked. I got fed up. Then he said, he didn't mean it. He didn't want a divorce. Then he made himself out to be the victim of a cruel abandonment. These guys are always in control. Somehow they set it all up & set everything in motion. They always come out on top. Some are more refined than others. Mine too is a foreigner. I loved his mother. I lost that family. I know little of his past & his people. Mine too is very successful. Calculating. Mine is very, very creepy. I started unraveling the layers upon layers he's been operating. I am sure I have only scratched the tip. I think you too might find that your man is also operating on many layers. I think your's is more creepy than mine. Your's kept money separate. This is a good thing in the end. Mine strove to get everything merged. So everything becomes marital property which he stakes a claim to. Mine was financially enriched to my detriment. And, he did the same to the woman who followed me & they were not even married. Mine stole some of my possessions which he wanted. And, he did the same to the woman who followed me. But, of course, he is of course her victim as well. Anyhow, your's will never give you an explanation. You must let it go. No more calls, texts, or e-mails. You are flinging yourself against a stone wall. You are hurting yourself. Please stop. It is in our expectations being disappointed that we suffer pain. Please expect nothing from him, then you cannot be disappointed. You will never get closure or satisfaction. What you are suffering from is "attachment" and you have lost the object to which you are attached (this man). You feel emotional attachment to this man & he does not reciprocate any longer. And you should feel attachment, you loved him & were his wife. Eventually this feeling attachment will subside. It may take a few years. Maybe if you did some reading on emotional attachment, this would help you to make sense of what you are feeling. You say you are in NYC, the public library there will be a bounty of literature. (I know my library, also in a major city, has had a wealth of excellent literature on the subject of psychopathology.) Human attachment is also a subject upon which much has been written. Luckily, I feel no attachment to my N. (Only an obsession to understand the pathology he manifests . . . because this pathology has damaged me severely and caused me much pain.)

#5 Jul 8 - 11PM

Leah2

hitandrun, susan32, girlfriday...

Thank you for the great insights. I actually laughed at girlfriday's post, especially the last line about eating ice-cream while watching sex and the city. Mine LOVED SATC, and watched every episode with me. He would quote lines from some episode days after we had watched it and say things like "Samantha would/wouldn't do/say/like that". Funnily, he only remembered Samantha, and not the other thee. I do think he is much more of a P, as he watched me cry and did not lift a hand. In fact, he seemed not to know what to do, and simply said he was scared of me...a cowering, crying lump who he was married to made him "scared"? Well, his blank stare scared the heck out of me when I started to notice it. I reailsed that that innocent look in his eyes, that childlike stare (he would often bite his lip while looking hurt, and looking up towards one corner with his eyes==just like a small child) was actually and empty, blank look :-((

#6 Jul 9 - 5PM (Reply to #13)

Susan32

The blank look

My ex-P professor was like that... it ALWAYS freaked out his students (not to mention his fellow professors, who avoided him--he was a pariah among them looong before he D&D'd me) He got compared to Jack Nicholson's character in "The Shining"... and of course, one of his favorite movies is "The Terminator" (about an emotionless killer machine) My ex-P would reduce me to tears, and continue droning on and on and on.... a predatory drone. The utter blankness. He seemed to find it shocking that while his intent was to smear me among his colleagues (he claimed I was hitting on him--I wasn't) and deprive me of my friends--his actions backfired. Big time. Apparently, his smear campaign behind my back went all 4 years, yet I emerged with good grades. Turns out his fellow professors saw through his BS. His eyes were empty when he talked about his aunt suffering from cancer, when I was explaining human emotions to him. My ex-P often said he found my emotions "scary." Very weird (considering that I had some lousy teachers in elementary, middle and high school!) He'd hurt himself... and act more like a malfunctioning robot than a human. He cut himself deep... and he just stared at his wound as if it were a lab specimen. I have to assume my ex-P professor hasn't been magically humanized by marriage and parenthood. Psychopaths are PATHOLOGICAL. There is no change (barring an act of God) Besides, he's the ONLY teacher I've had who spent time in a mental hospital as a child... because he was scaring his parents.

#7 Jul 8 - 11PM (Reply to #12)

girlfriday

The blank stare is

The blank stare is tell-tale. And his "sad and hurt" look sounds cultivated. Someone without emotions has to learn to mimic them.

#8 Jul 8 - 11PM

girlfriday

Ns and Ps

Leah, I read your story and it left my head spinning, so I can't even imagine your own confusion. I'm so sorry. Frankly, your ex does seem more like a psychopath. From what I read, it just seemed like he was playing with your head the whole time. I could be wrong, but that's the impression it left on me. I found something on the internet a while ago, but cannot recall where I got it. It summed it up this way: "But the difference between narcissistic personality disorder and the anti-social or sociopathic person is that the person with narcissistic personality disorder are merely callous and unfeeling in their treatment of others. The sociopath's manipulative behavior is calculated and premeditated. The sociopath needs a victim and herein lies the danger." This echoes what Susan32 said. This is a topic I've spent time thinking about, as I've been fortunate enough (cough cough) to have had intimate run-ins with both types of people in my life including one of each for parents. And I have to say, there seems to be a distinct difference. From my personal experience, to the psychopath, life is a game and people are toys. My ex-(suspected)P even said to me with a smile, "All my ex's end up on the Island of Broken Toys." (And yes, I took a journey to that island!!!) Another way to think about it is that a narcissist may kill and maim, but it will be in a rage and his blood-pressure will be high, but a psychopath would kill or maim with premeditation, calmly, with a smile while enjoying it as much as we might enjoy eating a pint of Ben & Jerry's. From the carton. In bed. While watching Sex and the City. I believe the Psychopath is more sadistic.

#9 Jul 7 - 9PM

Susan32

Differences between Narcs/Psychs

I had a narcissistic former boss (for 5 years) and a psychopathic former professor (for 4 years) And what a difference the difference makes! The Narcissist -My ex-N former boss is openly gay, has a boyfriend, and has two pet cats. -He's capable of feeling pain. When he hurt himself in the kitchen, yes, you'd hear profanity. -He'd cause pain to his employees (once, ALL of his employees walked out on him),but he'd be oblivious. -Bullying, lying -He ALWAYS promised to fire a cook who had been written up TONS of times, never did. -Was capable of feeling happiness. He did catering at weddings, was a talented pastry chef. The Psychopath -My ex-P former professor was NUMB to pain. His response to an injury in the lab was downright eerie. It freaked out my classmates. -Major projecting. He'd accuse me of being evil, did "crazy-making" and sent me to the on-campus therapist to "manage my feelings." -His lack of emotions freaked out my classmates. -I'd be crying. He'd do NOTHING, except drone on and on. In retrospect, he did get off on me being in pain. -Incredibly cruel when treated kindly -Totally NUMB when talking about his aunt suffering from cancer -When I was talking about a play I was writing, he was gleeful at the thought of the female lead dying from a broken heart. As he said cheerfully "Does she get punished?" -It's likely he was the one who set up his grandmother to get arrested for pot possession in Ohio. -He said he liked getting people into trouble to make himself look good. -Did admit to being sent to Worcester State Hospital as a child for his lack of emotions. Another difference- A Narc can get you into trouble, not fess up to it, but be oblivious. A Psych gets you in trouble purposefully. One can have human conversations with narcissists. My ex-N former boss COULD take some responsibility. Narcs are oblivious to causing pain to others. Psychs willfully inflict pain on others to pleasure themselves.

#10 Jul 7 - 8PM

gigi9

OMG YES!!!!!!

Yes to all three of your questions: 1) I use to get this nagging sense of dread that my exN husband was capable of offing me. 2) my exN has left (many times because I was stupid enough to take him back many times) without NS. I have been today 21 days NC and this time I think he has someone he is eyeballing. 3) And YES! Before me, my exN was in "hibernation." He had a girlfriend that he told me he never "qualified" as a girlfriend and who he also push/pulled yet spent most of his time alone and isolating from the world and then became obsessed with me when he met me!

#11 Jul 7 - 8PM

NancyM

Leah

It is not so much the cheating, I think it is more about how long they can keep fooling you and keep you confused. Yes they cheat and move on quickly, but in retrospect, when you go back and examine their behavior, they have just been busy covering their bases for if/when it goes pear shaped with us. I don't think most of them are ever in it for the long haul. They are only around while there is something in it for them. Have you noticed that it seems very common on the board that the time lapse seems to be 5 or 6 years for a relationship? It seems to be the average they are able to maintain their mask and the average that it takes to drive us to the brink of insanity. In my last relationship, when I was trying to get away from my N, he kept asking why I had stayed with my last N for longer than him. I told him that what he should focus on is the fact that I left, not how long I stayed. As for leaving, I always managed to kick mine to the kerb, but this last time, he did one of his usual D&Ds and I went NC. If I had responded it probably would be still going on, but he had upped the ante towards the end to make me look like the crazy one while I suspect he was setting up his next supply. I am not looking to see what he is doing, all I can think is if he has new supply he is leaving me alone. I think he is comfortable in the knowledge that he is the one that dumped me, and all I can say to that now is "be my guest!!" I think there is a fine line between Ns and Ps. The difference to me is an N will never admit to what he has done where a P will admit to hurting you, how he hurt you, why he hurt you, how he can hurt you, and giggle about it while blaming you. If you think them denying is mind bending, watching someone smile when you express pain is something far more terrifying. It matters little in my opinion, they are all very dangerous and are capable of anything. My last one said several times that he had expected "more" of me. I cannot even imagine what that MORE could possibly entail. The senior job you helped him get is primary supply for him. Your usefulness to him probably expired on doing that for him. It is probably as simple as that.

Nevergoback

#12 Jul 7 - 8PM (Reply to #2)

Leah2

NancyM

Amazing--mine said the same "you didn't love me enough; I didn't feel loved some days' and you should have done more for me"!!! By that last sentence, he meant that he expected me, after 5 years, to know what he needed and when (like a baby). What I am bewildered at is how some of you strong ladies on the board have actually been the ones to leave, and stuck with NC. Again, your strength is inspirational. I am wallowing in the feeling of having lost the love of my life and never finding love ever again (I am 35 and so wanted to start a family with him). Forget that I will never trust again. The interesting part is that I should have trusted myself more. I let signs go unseen because he was so angelic and loving and had so many friends who seemed to think he was better than gold (he will do anything for his friends, buying them things when he earned less than them, helping them move houses even if they were only really acquaintances).....I guess that they were supply during the times he was not with a girl? And also at a time, when I met him, that he was struggling to establish himself workwise. I sorted that for him too! I knew he was going to ask me to marry him within minutes of meeting; you see, he was reciting me poetry from memory and gazing into my eyes. So I just assumed that it was destiny, and that I had met the love of my life. Afterall, he seemed to adore me after our first date, and I had just broken up from a long relationship so probably really needed love. Deep down, from day one, however, I also knew that something was wrong. Something seemed scripted. I asked if he treated other girls this way--the poetry, writing them songs, playing (not so well) his guitar for them, showing them all his childhood photos--doing loads of "innocent" yet very enticing things that also sort of felt "well practiced"; he basically said, "well, I didn't sing to them as much as you; or I rarely wrote them poetry". I later discovered things that he had written 7 years ago that were almost identical to what he told me!!! And he kept all these things in a box, along with theatre tickets and other momentos, Almost like a serial collector who wants memories of his prey. Why stay 5 years? I have no idea--but I was by far his longest relationship (and first marriage). The others were mere months. That means that I gave too much and kept giving...until it was no longer enough. Again, this relates to agenesmurphy's point about scary patterns!!

#13 Jul 7 - 9PM (Reply to #3)

NancyM

You don't love me enough

Just another control tool. Makes us feel guilty that we are not showing them enough love so we try harder and don't call them on their behavior. As for leaving, the first time I was running for my life. The second always used forced sex as a way of ending an argument. His idea of kiss and make up. In the end I could not even stand the idea of him touching me, it made my skin crawl, he was the sex addict type. This one I totally shut down emotionally to get away from him. It took about another year after I left for the wheels to come off that lot. This last time round, I could not break those final links no matter what I tried. It was only by finally understanding Ns that I managed NC. While being completely devastating and heartbreaking, it was also a very big relief for me because it finally made sense out of a very messy life. I could never work out how I managed to turn perfectly normal loving guys into absolute utter nutters within 6 months. Now I know that it wasn't me. So the point of all that, leaving was not so much about being strong,to me it was always about survival. Also somewhere deep down we all do seem to know that there is something wrong but we ignore it. This last time round, it was after leaving my home, job, family that I saw his first full on N rage and I remember the first thought that crossed my mind was "OMG I have done it again, I have found another one" I guess the most I am annoyed about myself is I ignored my own instincts. And yes, everything is recycled for the next one. Sometimes I think we are chosen because they see how they can learn how to pretend to be better people by studying/being with us. Obviously once there is nothing left to gain by being with us, they move on.

Nevergoback

#14 Jul 7 - 10PM (Reply to #4)

hitandrun

Narcs and Psycopaths

Leah, You've read WWLP, right? Well, from my understanding,and this is from Barbara, not all Narcs are Psycopaths but all Psycopaths are Narcs. And let's not forget about the lovely socialized Sociopath. Narcissim is the lowest end of the spectrum for these disordered types(not sure if it is Cluster B...someone can correct me.) My ex pathological did not leave me for another woman and he did not cheat on me. He was a coward and he was passive aggressive and a pathological liar. I do know his father is a psychopath and these things have genenetic factors too, not just environmental/behavioral. Whatever label you give them, it is hard to completley understand what they do...it's just plain messed up. I know it is important to find out as much as you can, but when you get right down to it, our focus has been on them for so damn long, it is EXTREMELY important to shift the focus back to us. That takes time. I am not there yet, either : ) Keep the faith.

#15 Jul 7 - 10PM (Reply to #7)

Susan32

Rings true

My ex-N former boss is HUMAN and SANE compared to my ex-P former professor. I can't believe I actually said that. I did suffer from some form of PTSD after that job of 5 years... it did make me edgy, there are triggers. But my ex-N former boss didn't do the same mindcr@p as my ex-P former professor. There wasn't a huge emotional investment, and he didn't go to the huge extent of brainwashing. I lost my job, it was traumatizing.. but I focused on getting my health back and getting a job. I wasn't a huge mess like after the D&D with the ex-P. The toxic workplace with the former N boss, however, was NOT conducive to dealing with the trauma of the ex-P. Lots of repressed memories. So, I'm more relaxed and reflective now. It's a matter of focus. I'm thankful BOTH those guys are out of my life!

#16 Jul 7 - 10PM (Reply to #5)

Leah2

Thankyou, hitandrun...

...you are so right, that it is time to stop focusing on him, and to get stronger and back to the woman I was just months ago. The crazy-making started a year ago, so it will take a while to get back to 100 percent but I am working on it! Starting with a vacation next month, during which I plan to look fabulous and truly get my confidence back. Have noticed that I do not look in the mirror anymore, stopped working out and,while I make a little effort to look decent for work, I feel ugly and unlovable. That needs to change NOW! Will look for your story.

#17 Jul 7 - 10PM (Reply to #6)

hitandrun

It takes time

Don't expect a miracle, that you will change overnight. Just keep moving forward. Sometimes you will fall...but if you keep getting up, then you are making progress. Be good to yourself. It will take some time to deprogram. My hope is we all become even better than we ever were before the involvement with a disordered. I think we have to allow that journey to happen. Please know I am only 4 months after the D&D, so I am still in the back and forth of emotions and deprogramming and all the other wonderful things that go with this experience. To add to my story, I found out he was a major gambling addict, too...after he was long gone, of course. Much love to you : )

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