The ADD/Narcissist connection

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#1 Nov 18 - 7PM
NancyM
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The ADD/Narcissist connection

Ok ladies (and gents), I have been up to my eyeballs in research looking for the connection between anxiety disorders, and why Narcissists seem to single out people that have them. This is some of the stuff I am putting together, and there is still much work to be done , but I am rather excited about it all.

Also bear in mind that I have absolutely NO credentials to support my findings other than being an ADD sufferer that has to date been a shining beacon for Narc attack.
I also cannot speak for other people who suffer anxiety disorders, and realize there are also sub-categories that exist within the spectrum, so I am my own guinea pig here.
With my own ADD which is predominately inattentive, I know I have been this way as long as I can remember. I remember at 4 years old I often analyzed my own thought patterns, and at this point have no idea how common or uncommon this is for a child that young to do. But the interesting thing was while I was observing my thought patterns, what was I observing it with? It had to be another thought pattern.

As a child I was the fixer, the distraction when anybody was being targeted by our resident Narc (dad). I was a clown, an attention grabber, a protector, and I did it very well. Where was my real self while I was hurling myself in the path of the oncoming train? My real self did not matter to me at all. It was relegated to the back seat while I played my role within the family structure. I never even realized that I thought this way about myself until I was about 32 (I am 42 now).

I did not have learning difficulties per se, I simply learned to teach myself. My mind ran at warp speed, and as long as I could find the bigger picture, I could work the solution back to the problem. This is common for ADD sufferers. The education system works backwards for a mind like mine, but I did figure out how to make it work for me. But it is the warp speed that sometimes misses the details and so we are accused of not paying attention. Actually I find that some of the detail is not necessary so I simply don’t add it because I assumed other people thought like I did. An example is solving math equations. I could not follow the steps set out that a normal thinking person needs, my mind connects dots, and a seven step equation was solved in three. My teachers always marked me down for not showing my workings, even though the solution was nearly always correct. I agonized over trying to include those steps and my maths got worse instead of better by trying to do it the correct way.

Anyway I have included some of this info for people who know little of the disorder. Interestingly for me, I was a very good problem solver and an excellent lateral thinker...always outside the box. Always hyper vigilant, I could sense danger, knew when I needed to intervene, and knew how other people were feeling. I could even absorb some of their pain....enter the empath connection. Also if one was to line up the symptoms of PTSD and ADD, the similarities are striking.

So being so hypersensitive, I was very easily hurt, but very rarely showed that pain on the outside. It all got internalized. So what we have here is a personality type that is highly likely to internalize everything, sponges up other people’s pain, and feels a need to solve /fix things. BUT while I was solving, fixing, helping everyone else, it was never for myself. If I was under attack, I simply internalized it, rather than defend myself. Sounds like a narcissists dream? In actual fact, it is. It also seems to me that it is the polar opposite of the narcissist. It is like having two extremes of personality type, and when you close the circle, there is these two types facing off. (Incidentally, it also fits the co-dependent model, but be aware there are different version of this model and I do not agree with all of them)

On the outside I appear confident, centered and having my shit together. I am not acting, I just don’t worry about some outside aesthetics that a lot of people get wrapped up in. This is why I wanted to make the distinction before between self esteem and self. My self esteem was fine, but I had very little connection with self. Also some of the quirks of an ADD person needs to be addressed here. I can talk over the top of people, because I have probably arrived at a solution faster so simply feel the need to explain my view. I am not saying it is always right, I do love intelligent debate. I am aware I do this so try to be mindful of it, but get me wound up, I find it very difficult to pull myself up. I can listen to up to 4 separate conversations at the same time, so while I may be talking to one person, I will suddenly bounce off, comment in someone else’s conversation and bounce back to the first person. I have noticed the confusion and hurt in the other person when I do this, as they assume I am not paying attention to them. I am, I am just paying attention to everything around me. Suffice to say this drives a Narc absolutely bonkers when they demand undivided attention. I am a daydreamer of the highest order. I can do it while still listening to someone, but it also appears to them that I am not paying attention. My daughter would often complain that I was not paying attention to her yet I could repeat back everything that she had said to me. However when in hyper-focus mode, it requires a bomb to be dropped on my head before anyone can get my attention, and I get annoyed with anyone that does this. I have had to learn how to control that. Why am I including these quirky behaviors? Because on the outside they can appear to be very similar to Narcissism, but are actually for quite the opposite reasons.

So let’s have another look at the narcissist. They are the externalizers. They will not own anything, will not let anything inside them, so must project outwards at all times. Recently I had the opportunity to ask a Narcissist what had “happened” to them, appealing to the victim that exists in every Narcissist. This is what he said in a very, very brief moment of clarity.

Narc: I am running through a field, and am trying to find the end of it, but everything inside is going too fast. I can’t find the end of the field.
Me: Are you alone?
Narc: Yes but I am scared because I can’t get it to stop, it is going too fast. But outside everything is going sooo slow, it is going too slow.
Me: So what do you do?
Narc: I have to push everything inside to the outside.
Me: To make the outside go fast?
Narc: to make the outside the same as the inside. I have to become the robot.
Me: why do you have to become the robot?
Narc: Because nobody wants to be the robot, I have to become it.

This conversation only continued for a couple more minutes and the Narc reappeared and basically nailed the door shut. For a moment my heart cried for the child that had to do that, but not for the monster it had become.

So, in all of this, the big question for me is why did my personality go off in one direction, and the Narcs go off in the other. Is it a defense mechanism that have fired in different ways? Is there a genetic predisposition to go one way or the other? The mind boggles. Feel free, all and sundry to pick this to pieces, get the thinking caps on and let me know your thoughts, and ask for me to clarify if you have questions.

Just as a footnote, I have come across the notion that the Hindus believe that ADHD is not a disorder but evidence of Holy souls. I do need to do more research on this though.

Nov 27 - 2PM
BlueMoon
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Delivered from Distraction, by Hallowell, M.D. and Ratey, M.D.

Wow, what GREAT observations! It is so validating, as someone with ADD myself- undiagnosed until recently in my early 40's, to hear everyone's story and what this brain difference means in terms of vulnerability! The book, mentioned above, is INCREDIBLE- written by two M.D.s with ADD. I really did think I was crazy for many years....but I sure don't now....and as far as the Hindu interpretation...LOVE it.
Nov 19 - 2PM
Meadowbrook
Meadowbrook's picture

ADD and abuse

NancyM, I have ADD-inattentive type and started taking medication for it in my late 30s. Your description of your thought processes and experiences are very similar to my own. I certainly benefit from the medication but believe I could have been helped greatly in school if I had more help. I was in gifted programs but couldn't juggle the regular school work because I didn't know how to organize myself. I managed to do well in school but it required overcompensating for my inattentive/disorganized ways. My son is very similar. He's in a gifted program but totally scatter-brained. He can focus like a laser on things that interest him but he's very forgetful and distracted. I struggle with whether or not I would allow him to take medication for ADD if it ever comes to that. I would like to be able to do what Thomas Edison's mom did for him but I have my own issues with organization, etc... Amusingly, the N I knew liked to say he had ADD but I think it was only because he had been accused of not paying attention to people. There's a difference in seeming distracted because you have ADD and being distracted because you really don't care what other people are saying! I actually think a lot of Narcs like to claim they have ADD but really they just don't care to pay attention to anyone or anything that is not focused on them. I also recently discovered an article linking ADD/ADHD with being more susceptible to abuse by exploitive personalities. See the link below. I think you will find it interesting. http://blogs.psychcentral.com/adhd/2010/08/our-brain-is-hardwired-for-abuse-extra-challenging-for-those-with-adhd/
Nov 20 - 5AM (Reply to #15)
NancyM
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Meadowbrook

Internet has been down for a while due to inclement weather. I think Ns often use the ADD characteristics as masking. It took me some time to realize that my xN was trying to copy some of my quirks. One of them was my utter disorganization, but being able to pull the solution or document out of my butt at the eleventh hour and 59th minute. xN actually attempted to do it that way, but his structure is so compartmentalized that he found it impossible. I found it hilarious that by having my dysfunctions he thought he could also have my ability. And thankyou for the link...some really interesting info on this site.

Nevergoback

Nov 19 - 12AM
sassy
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Narcs/anxiety disorders

I can't contribute to the question of a narcs attraction to anxiety disordered individuals, but my last "boyfriend" who fits all the criteria for NPD and beyond, admittedly took medication for anxiety and panic attacks. He is 46 and said he had been on the medication since He was 30 after having witnessed a bad car accident. After having witnesssed more of his bizarre behaviour, I searched his medicine cabinet and instead of helping myself to some of his meds to calm my anxiety, I discovered another prescription for a form of PROZAC, funny he never mentioned that. When he recounted his past long term "girlfriends" he referred to the first and longest (15yrs) as a psycho, and said that the second which lasted only 1 year was diagnosed as bipolar at the end and left him because she didn't want him to have to deal with her disease. Smart girl !!! After confessing my confusion at this mans behaviour to a client of mine she knew immediately he was an N, she was in the process of divorcing hers after 20 yrs together. Hers was also taking prescription medication for anxiety/panic attacks. Both of them are definitely somatically predominate. It seems that they suffer from some form of anxiety as well (not surprisingly). Or maybe they just feel more comfortable having that in their medicine cabinet than PROZAC.
Nov 20 - 5AM (Reply to #13)
NancyM
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sassy

It is interesting how often this seems to happen. You are right, Ns do have deep seated anxiety, but rather than own it, they project it. I guess this is how easily these pathologies can be misdiagnosed, and am still exploring the possibility of a crossover in why these happen.

Nevergoback

Nov 18 - 8PM
Susan32
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That's what it was like...

The ex-Psych professor and I were perfect opposites. Even to the way we dressed! After the D&D, one of my friends observed that I would always wear light colors (pink, yellow)-he was always in dark ones. He was literally my shadow. This article shows why in my own way, I could empathize with him (and yeah, he'd got on my case for not giving him undivided attention, and constantly command me to FOCUS) He was the externalizer;I was the internalizer. During the final D&D, I'd tell him he was angry, that I could TELL he was angry--and he'd deny it. I'd ask him "Why are you so angry?" It's like I KNEW his feelings, and I wanted him to own up to them. In my mode of thinking, I like connecting things, thinking outside of the box... the ex-P, the exact opposite. He said that I baffled him constantly. His favorite metaphor was about walls between people; to quote EM Forster, my motto would be "Only connect." After the final D&D, I remember telling the ex-P that when he shared his feelings of disappointment, sadness, etc, that I FELT them too... of course he cried "boundary violation." Empathy was alien to him--so he wondered why I would empathize with him. Whenever he shared his feelings, they were ALWAYS negative.
Nov 20 - 5AM (Reply to #10)
NancyM
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Susan

Interesting, I don't think one needs to have an anxiety disorder to be highly empathetic or have the ability to think outside the box, but it sure helps;)

Nevergoback

Nov 20 - 11AM (Reply to #11)
Susan32
Susan32's picture

Being an empath...

Meant seeing the ex-P's weaknesses very clearly. He thought he was perfection;I knew he wasn't. He took advantage of my weaknesses... and believe me, I have done likewise. The ex-P couldn't stand that I thought outside the box. I remember once during class he sighed why was I always thinking outside the box? My response was that there is no box ;) Sorta like that scene in "The Matrix" about there being no spoon. He would talk about there being walls between people- and during the D&D, at one point (when he was accusing me of not taking him seriously) I told him that the walls between us only existed in HIS head, in HIS mind. I told him he was walling people away and isolating himself. His Narcissism/Psychopathology is like solitary confinement. Solitary confinement is known to drive normal people crazy. The ex-P was already crazy.
Nov 18 - 7PM
blueeyes
blueeyes's picture

ADD research

I'm interested in the answers some of you may come up with on this topic. I'm diagnosed ADD and research ADD alone. I haven't had the interest in researching the Narc connection because I have shifted mt focus off of the "why how" for now to help move myself along. I went so crazy researching Narcissism and anti-social disorders and I'm tired. Yet, interested to see what you all think. Thank you Nancy.
Nov 18 - 7PM
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Thats it Nancy...HOLY SOUL Period!

LOL On a serious note, before I became disabled - and I'm going to say that because part of my disability has affected my cognition, I get fogged and can't spell or write - you always see me complaining about spell check ect..and must be scratching ya head...how the heck? But once upon a time I really could spell and edit...LMAO BUT - I digress...and am curious about what you raise in terms of ADD. We learned as educators there are shoot i hate this...can't remember...there is a term to describe the many different ways people learn. Some are visual, some are auditory, some are tactile..so on an so forth - despite having to take so many courses ad nauseum repeating the same thing - the system does not seem to practice what it freaking preaches! This would frustrate me as an educator because I witnessed so many children being labeled ADD/ADHD when in my estimation, wasn't a damn thing wrong with the child, it was a matter of instruction having to be modified. If you are committed to educating, there is a lot of research you do on your own in order to meet the needs of your students - I won't get too far into that I got burned by the system but ANYHOOO... In your estimation and in your experience - do you feel medication is a good thing or a bad thing for a child? I feel that it should be a last resort and that there are a number of things that can be done in order to reach the child. The problem is, that resources and time are working against most educators and if you cant step up then you need to be triaged to drugging. It's fucked up, but being in the front line, I saw this day in and day out. What is your opinion on this - do you think that as a child a drug would have helped you, or that modifying instruction would have worked better?
Nov 18 - 8PM (Reply to #2)
NancyM
NancyM's picture

Michele

I guess that medicating this for education purposes would have to come down to individual cases, but overall, I disagree with it. I think that many are too quick to use drugs as a solution, but in saying that, many people have to in order to function properly in certain situation / professions. I have spent a lot of time on some ADD sufferers forums, and can see where some people have huge struggles in some areas and can understand the need for medication. But when it comes back to the educating principles, I have also come across the mindset that a large proportion of teachers believe they would not want their students medicated, but would rather the opportunity to be able to use different teaching methods for the said child, as you have pointed out. Unfortunately, it seems the system is stacked against them because they are not able to spend the time required on the said child. I think in my case as a child I would just have been happier to know that my brain marched to the beat of a different drum so to speak. I have never actually taken a drug for it so can't really comment on if it would have been a benefit, but from what I can gather, as an ADD sufferer, I have been told I am very high functioning so could probably learn to manage my quirks without them. I do believe the modified instruction would have been a huge benefit in my case. But it does explain why I hate winter and don't function as well when I am cold. I could probably use some form of medication in those circumstances, and am yet to fully explore that option.

Nevergoback

Nov 18 - 8PM (Reply to #3)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

ADD

Actually in my research, as much as ADD is classified as a "learning disability" and kids are usually triaged into "Special Education" The kids are freaking brilliant BECAUSE their mind works so fast, they actually can overprocess information so in fact, the teacher is teaching TOO SLOW for them which causes them to act out which causes them to get the label!!! Many of these children also have exceptional gifts in areas outside of academics...some are academically gifted, but they are multiply gifted! It is very sad, frustrating and a great source of anger for me and I really did fight hard for my kids... One girl, was a level 1 - special ed all the way to fifth grade. When she got to my class - I worked with the REsource room teacher - in ONE YEAR with me and the Resource room teacher working together - this darling God Bless her was removed from Special Ed and was functioning on grade level. I am not magic...the system needs an overhaul!
Nov 18 - 8PM (Reply to #4)
NancyM
NancyM's picture

Learning disability

Everything you have said exactly applied to me. However I was always in a class with older students so I often just skipped ahead of my year. I think I was fortunate that this was the case, it allowed me to keep going, and also see the bigger picture of WHY I needed to learn something if this makes sense. It is funny now in retrospect that even at college or Uni I would often get frustrated with lecturers for not showing where something was going in the first place. They always looked at me quizzically, now I know why. I have done some pretty so called brilliant things at Uni, but on the flip side I can often over analyze and totally miss the simple answer. The more complex something is, the better I can grasp it, sometimes I need to get back in the box to answer the simple ones. I have come across many that recognize that this is not a learning disability, but rather a different way of learning altogether. But really until science and the rest of the community catch up to that, little will change. Some have likened it to the Eddison Gene, and most inventors, discoverers are suspected to have some version of it. Thomas Eddison was home schooled by his mother because he was just too disruptive in class and the teachers would not have him. I think he has something like over 600 patents in his name. Anyway kudos to you for recognizing that, we need more people like you in the world.

Nevergoback

Nov 18 - 8PM (Reply to #5)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Much to my dismay Nancy

I was chewed up and spit out...U rated...LOL Despite stellar test results... I had expectations... A no-no at the Bored of Dred...
Nov 18 - 9PM (Reply to #6)
NancyM
NancyM's picture

Yup

I would believe that because it seems more and more evident that it is a Narcissistic world we live in and we seem to be drugging up and dumbing down the very minds that could probably solve a lot of these problems, or at least find better solutions.

Nevergoback

Nov 18 - 9PM (Reply to #7)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

It's hard to watch

And I fear we will spiral down because of it...the fact that our Educational system is in shambles will eventually prove to be our biggest threat to National Security. That's my take on it...