Was Any of it Real?

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Nov 28 - 4AM (Reply to #14)
Syren66 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

The moment you stop

The moment you stop looking...is the moment a wonderful guy will pop into your life. I regret and have been angered by the 7 years I wasted as well...I am now 45. Prospects aren't exactly leaping out at me, but hey - I need to be real with myself here...I'm not 'there' yet as it relates to dating new people...still have baggage to contend with. And I'd rather come into these realizations at 45, 55, 65, 75...than spend an entire lifetime wallowing in dysfunction and never knowing what the hell the problem was, or worse yet, not even realizing there was a problem....but that's the fate these narcs face.
Nov 28 - 2AM
Syren66 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Because it wasn't fake for

Because it wasn't fake for you. You're mourning a whole lot of other loss that has really nothing to do with him...those circumstances are triggers, that's all. Hey, the exNarc burned CDs for me too...and he wrote me poetry...and at the end, when I threw it all out in front of him, I told him if I want false advertising, I'll sign up for the Publisher's Clearinghouse Sweepstakes. That shit was insulting to me at that point, as I knew it was all just a ruse to convince me what a "sensitive" guy he was. His actions were not those of a sensitive guy, they were the actions of a passive-aggressive person. Neglect = abuse too. The three or four 'sensitive' things he did for me in the span of 7 years will never make up for the over 2500 days of neglect I had to endure just for those few crumbs. The "sensitive" stuff he did for you, was just the very least he was willing to do to keep you around, as he was not finished with you yet. I know that sounds harsh, but that's how they are....harsh. And vile...and crass...and boorish...and abusive.
Nov 28 - 3PM (Reply to #11)
faith_
faith_'s picture

"His actions were not those

"His actions were not those of a sensitive guy, they were the actions of a passive-aggressive person. Neglect = abuse too. The three or four 'sensitive' things he did for me in the span of 7 years will never make up for the over 2500 days of neglect I had to endure just for those few crumbs." You're right Syren. Those in-betweens have been hell to go through over the years, and what does it say about him? (about me, it says living in a delusion, not really eating, obsessing over him...but the a hole obviously was just 'living life' scoping girls, the senery, not thinking about me...not Needing faith supply at that moment, I guess...then returning with hoovering and some 'sensitive' gesture. You're right...and me thinking "he DOES love me after all"...and "this is a symbolism of his love"...and "he HAS missed me as much a I've missed him," and I'd EXhale...or rather, half-exhale, as the other half got enraptured by the anxiety of whatever being "WIth him" was.) "The "sensitive" stuff he did for you, was just the very least he was willing to do to keep you around, as he was not finished with you yet. I know that sounds harsh" That sounds VERY harsh, but as you say, that's how they are. Only as long as he 'needed' me. Yet Why do I feel so devalued that he doesn't need me anymore. I know it was poisonous, the lie, yet why am I feeling so unsettled that I can be tossed without a thought. I hate this.
Nov 28 - 6PM (Reply to #12)
EiPuff (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

My N is deranged

The man torched my heart by using me for sex (I thought we were making love) 2wks ago & last Monday informed me he just wants to be friends (trans: he gets benefits of being my lover without having to do a thing for me & only when HE wants to bother w me) and I should go ahead and find a new lover, it's ok with him (i was walking & actually staggered and had to sit on the curb from the pain in my heart from that) and then gave me the silent treatment over my long Thanksgiving weekend. That deranged son of a bitch just texted me that he hopes I'm ok and he'd like to meet for a drink later this week - then texted "we'll drink naked" and I know he really believes that he made me happy with that because I'm so crazy over him that no matter what he says or does to me, I'll jump at the chance to be with him. I know I'm supposed to be NC, but I couldn't stop myself & texted back "thanks anyway but I don't get naked with friends". It's funny, I'm getting the ST again but it's actually cracking me up this time. Because of all of you, I see now that's it's deliberate punishment & it's pretty funny. Fk him, tells me for all he cares I can go find a new man & then thinks I'd be naked with him again???? Not without chloroform, my friend. Lol Ok, I need to control my impulse to get the last word in - I feel like Kramer on Seinfeld with it comes to NC - "oops, ok, starting NOW" but I'll get there, I know I will.
Nov 28 - 5AM (Reply to #8)
serenity1
serenity1's picture

They were all fake from the moment we met them, It was all a lie

I learned the hard way, These men have to put on the show that they are caring and worry about you and your feelings, They buy you little presents, Give you suprises, They do things know man has ever done for you, That is how they trap you, You think to your self, I have found a man that is like no other, He is my prince, That I have been looking for my whole life, And once they have you, Then they start with there sadistic games and you start questioning your own sanity and self, I believe they knew what they were doing all along, They are PLAYERS and they know it and knew it, You have to give little presents and little suprises to keep someone hanging on, If they were mean to us from the beginning we would have told them to get lost along time ago
Nov 29 - 11PM (Reply to #10)
faith_
faith_'s picture

yup, serenity. And my ex was

yup, serenity. And my ex was kinda pathetic-ish as far as self-confidence and such, not 'good looking' (but I became so drawn to and attracted to him the more I got to 'know' him and feel the emotional and intellectual chemistry, and humor) and never had a girlfriend b4 me...so the last thing I thought was player. But sadistic is right. I didn't know that was lurking in the background when we just met..the beginnings he seemed to nurture
Nov 28 - 6AM (Reply to #9)
Sea
Sea's picture

Yes the saddest thing is

Yes the saddest thing is everything is a fake! All the tenderness everything is not real. All a show. This is the most cruel part of the whole relationshit and the hardest to accept.
Nov 28 - 4AM (Reply to #2)
empath
empath's picture

whether it was real or fake, it's over so it doesn't matter

There are questions that never get answered and I have decided for myself that the best thing to do, is not to ruminate about them anymore and just trust that in time, they will no longer matter. I struggled horribly with this "what about the tender moments" cognitive dissonance...and came to the conclusion that the sweet and loving moments were simply the N mirroring me back to myself. Ns study you, size you up, learn what makes you tick, uncover your values and copy your emotions...and what they regurgitate back to you seems very real. They use your own "language", your method of expressing love and what you consider significant in that expression, to deepen your bond to them. I firmly believe there is nothing, not a damn thing, that an N does without weighing into the decision the "what's in it for me" factor. Everything they do is based on that "what's in it for me"...so if they know that burning a CD of mushy songs is going to make you swoon for them, or holding your hand gently will make you think they are sensitive, etc. They will do it. They will do whatever it takes to keep you "on the hook", and their approach is specifically designed to be significant to you, the target. This realization rings true for me. I believe this specific targeting technique applies to every psychopath and Narcisisst, based upon what I've read on the subject. This understanding, and what I have discovered about an N being able to have "physical empathy"(as opposed to "emotional empathy") is what I have accepted as my truth, and is the only thing that helped me move past letting go of all the "tender moments" that weren't rooted in the same motivation for them as they were for me. Rather than suffer the disillusionment of replaying these moments in my mind and dissolving them, I choose to allow myself to believe that because I was real in those moments, those moments were "real" for me. I know on an intellectual level that the N was not expressing genuine emotion or being loving towards me, and I know that I am not going back to the Disordered One, so I am content with just "knowing" that it wasn't real, yet not feeling obligated to go back and "erase" or "negate" the actual memories themselves. I was a loving, caring person and had beautiful moments in the context of my own beliefs. From the Ns point of view, he was a shrewd manipulative calculating person, who used my own best qualities against me, to keep me hooked on him. Two completely opposing perspectives on the same experience, and I choose to accept one perspective on an emotional level, and accept the other perspective on an intellectual level. This is the way that I discovered, in order to "make sense" of the experience and resolve the cognitive dissonance, for myself. Not sure if explaining how I handled this is helpful or even if I have explained it in a way that is useful to another person here, in their healing, yet I am hoping that something I've said here resonates with you, and helps you put everything into context for yourself, because I know the pain of not being able to reconcile the conflicting information and how long it took me to even begin to process it. And at the end of the day, we know that whether it was real or not real, we are not going back with the N so whatever it takes to move past thinking about this, is what we need to do.
Nov 28 - 10PM (Reply to #6)
Marlinmom
Marlinmom's picture

When they're gone, they're far gone

"Ns study you, size you up, learn what makes you tick, uncover your values and copy your emotions...and what they regurgitate back to you seems very real. They use your own "language", your method of expressing love and what you consider significant in that expression, to deepen your bond to them." This whole post was so spot-on, Empath, but this paragraph in particular. I just had an unfortunate conversation tonight with my soon to be ex-husband, based on his weird and depressing interactions with our kids. I was trying to convey how empty his visits with the kids are; they come home depressed and upset at how superficial and essentially useless and evasive he is when they get together. N's mother literally walked out the door when he was 9 and never came back, and I told him I thought he was setting up the same scenario. he's pretending to be the good dad, staying in touch, when in fact he's just checking boxes on what he thinks is the good dad list so he can later claim 'I tried and tried, but they wouldn't work with me; she turned them against me." . I said look, until you come to grips with how incredibly abusive and disrespectful you've been to me, you cannot repair this relationship with the kids. You don't love me anymore, that's fine. But we raised them to be strong and direct and not put up with abuse. they just won't stand for you to ignore the impact of what you've been doing without acknowledging the harm it's caused. Later I was talking to our oldest who finally said to me, well mom, you always showed him how to behave in any situation that involved emotions. he just copied you. you stood for all those things. dad just went along but he never came up with anything like those values on his own. he was always just figuring out how to get what he wanted. So I am starting to realize why all the stuff he's doing now, living on his own, seems so weird and disconnected and out in space. he has no anchor or actual conscience to copy. he's trying to freelance all these connections to his kids, and they do not come naturally. He literally cannot read their emotional needs because he can't go beyond his own and never could. he was mirroring me back to me, but he was also mirroring me to others, including the kids. and now he's with a very scheming and selfish colleague at his office, and he's mirroring that back on us. do the minimum, she proclaims his father of the year. check the box.
Nov 29 - 11PM (Reply to #7)
faith_
faith_'s picture

Marlinmom, that's interesting

Marlinmom, that's interesting how your son said that, from looking in. That's an observation I'm just trying to figure out. Him being "weird and disconnected and out in space" is how it felt for me too at some points, especially at the end.
Nov 28 - 3PM (Reply to #3)
faith_
faith_'s picture

Thank you, Empath

Thank you writing all this out and explaining it. I analyse things a lot and sometimes try to make logical sense, and what you explained helps with the process. Because I know something WAS happening. I know what I was feeling, and I know he was doing things to inspire that in me, and putting time and careful attention to 'connecting,' with me, so I just don't get how the FEELINGS weren't there for him. So it helps to hear you a and others describe the experience of them studying you and sizing you up, and giving it right back to you. So sick. And like Hunter wrote, the idealization stage when you're just getting acquainted w/ them, is what they're relishing with that high of getting their hooks into you...Like we don't know even know the reality of their psychotic ness that's being played out during the idealization stage...setting the stage. "I firmly believe there is nothing, not a damn thing, that an N does without weighing into the decision the "what's in it for me" factor. Everything they do is based on that "what's in it for me"...so if they know that burning a CD of mushy songs is going to make you swoon for them, or holding your hand gently will make you think they are sensitive, etc. They will do it. They will do whatever it takes to keep you "on the hook", and their approach is specifically designed to be significant to you, the target. " This should not exist. These people should not have the capability of doing this. You're right, it was all tailor made for ME. That's why I thought it was so perfect. Not over the top, not generic, not cliche or mushy, everything he did seemed so measured in a ME-way. Like we spoke the same non-verbal language (not even focusing on physical intimacy, but just everything else). so hard. I've never heard about "physical empathy." If there's an article on this that has helped you, please send me the link. "I was a loving, caring person and had beautiful moments in the context of my own beliefs. From the Ns point of view, he was a shrewd manipulative calculating person, who used my own best qualities against me, to keep me hooked on him." Yes, I've thought that too. Interacting w/ him would put me at war with myself, using my own good qualities against me. I was reading last night about how sociopaths work, and it said they will use whatever 'weakness' you have against you, be it empathy, strong conscience, being a committed person, etc...basically, your human-ness. And it said how even if you're not a typical 'good target,' (the website had a quiz) that anyone could be fooled by one.
Nov 28 - 5PM (Reply to #4)
empath
empath's picture

faith

I wish I could give you a hug. This sucks, it really does. I promise that you are strong enough to get through this, and that you will eventually feel better. Please take care of yourself by staying NC...this is critical to your healing...it will help you "break the spell" and begin to understand things more clearly. Please do not discredit yourself for having feelings or for being in love with someone that is not capable of loving anyone...your feelings were very real, and good, and someday you will have a good man in your life who will appreciate you and be able to reciprocate your affection. It will get better. Stay the course, and keep reading and learning. NC works...it's not easy, yet it works. If he Hoovers you, come here and post about it instead of responding to him. You have very strong empathic gifts of clairsentience and that is what got you soooo hooked by this guy. On the plus side, as soon as you find the right bit of information and it really "clicks" for you that he is disordered, you will be able to unhook yourself so fully and completely that you will hardly believe the difference. You'll feel like a sponge that's just been wrung out...all the N's emotional garbage will be out of you. :-) As far as physical empathy, that is something I have only just learned about...it's not something I am proficient in...I learned about it by accident, when I read an article by Rose Rosetree, explaining that John Mayer has an empathic gift of "physical oneness". My jaw dropped because Mayer is like the poster boy for NPD, and then I realized not all empathic people use their gifts for good purposes. I wrote a comment here awhile back on physical empathy...if I remember correctly I think it was under a thread called "Sex and the N", and I think strivingforhealing had started the thread. I will look for the topic in the archives since I don't have an actual link to anything to explain it, other than to suggest Rose Rosetree's site. Keep reading and keep learning...you are going to be just fine, Faith! :-)
Nov 29 - 10PM (Reply to #5)
faith_
faith_'s picture

"On the plus side, as soon as

"On the plus side, as soon as you find the right bit of information and it really "clicks" for you that he is disordered, you will be able to unhook yourself so fully and completely that you will hardly believe the difference. You'll feel like a sponge that's just been wrung out...all the N's emotional garbage will be out of you. :-)" Thanks for this. It feel more distant from it sometimes, then really feel a lot. I just want to really process it and learn what I need to, so this gargabe really does come out. and that is interesting about the "physical empathy"...because the way he'd touch my face or hold my hand...(I'm not sentimental w/ things like that, I'm not necessarily a touchy-feely person, but I so felt him each time he'd touch my face, neck, or take my hand. It really felt special. So maybe he does have some sentimentality or empathy physically, even if he used it for cruel manipulative purposes).