If it was discovered that NPD were like Schizophrenia would we.....

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Mar 12 - 8AM (Reply to #26)
Hunter
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Sorry

Yep you're right!
Mar 12 - 7AM (Reply to #22)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Trulybroken

I understand very well...the disability I have is very much connected to the neurological...I spend lots of time reading articles on the brain... How about we study trauma...that I think is neutral territory... Neutral in that the drug addict narcs...yea, before they picked up the vial, they were traumatized and abused...then they took their stuff out on us and left us with trauma...yea, our brains were altered too... Otherwise for the purposes of healing on the board...I don't think it is a good move to get folks caught up on the philosophical...I've been there, I've done it and I got my butt chewed out too in a sense... And so what needs to be understood is there are different levels of healing... AND I will say it again, I'm open and I've been right down the exact same path in fact I'll send ya some of my stuff but we got to get off this loop not necessarily for "US" but for "us" Hugs! And sincerely I would not mind discussing this with you privately, and we can philosophically try to find reason...but I've come to find out...nah...it doesn't matter it is what it is and with these cats ethics are not part of the game and you know what...even IF they found a cure..."they're too good and perfect" to get treatment the HECK WITH IT!!! I AM POWERLESS!!!! LOL
Mar 12 - 7AM (Reply to #23)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

I am correcting myself on the aboslutes...

the "WE" here is mostly 'myself' BUT it does apply to some as well...not ALL Oh and I just had another thought...I think that my challenge has been the what if's.. The REALITY is we can only deal with what we know about this for now and protect ourselves... Taking the MIND to the what if's might just trigger the good old "empathy" chip which when dealing with people who aren't narcs is fine but for a time...until you're completely healed...when it comes to the narcs..the what if's and empathy...need to be turned off...for SELF preservation....
Mar 12 - 6AM
agnesmurphy17
agnesmurphy17's picture

The difference is

Schizophrenics are nuts to everybody when they are psychotic, off their meds, whatever. So the mentally ill are ill and they act nuts to everybody they met. no discrimination. Personality disorders are selective in their abuse & extraction. Some people merit nice behavior & politeness (boss & important people). Others are lied to & cheated on a regular basis. However, when the victim brings this up--more lies to cover up. And if the behavior gets criminal, the PD lies even more & says the victim is lying & crazy. So PSa know what they are doing. Do it selectively where they know they can get away with it. And they manipulate & lie to cover up what they do. That's the difference & that's why one should be pissed off. One has been savagely used & exploited. And the PD is YOUR victim.
Mar 13 - 6AM (Reply to #19)
agnesmurphy17
agnesmurphy17's picture

Misunderstanding

What I want to say. A person who is suffering from an active bout of mental illness is acting mentally ill with every person he or she encounters. When the mentally ill person is no longer in the grips active mental illness, s/he will recognize that psychosis or the break influenced their thinking which resulted in certain acts committed. (Of course, there ar epeople who suffer from mental illness, take their meds, or not, but never have breaks & never hurt others & one would never know they suffer from mental illness because everything seems fine.) A person who has a PD (personality disorder) can control his or her actions. With some people nice to extract what they want. With others from whom there is nothing more to extract plain evil. And with some they are Dr. J & Mr. H--alternating back & forth. And if the victim tells anybody about what Mr. H does, the PD denies s/he ever did that. Now, please. I am not insensitive. My work deal with many mentally ill people. And also with psychopaths. There is a difference. And mental health providers have to know the difference. And, I will tell you, when the doctors give the lable "anti-social"--they wash their hands of the so-called patient. There is nothing that can be done. And the doctors know the psychopath will use the mental health system to try to get free of their criminal acts.
Mar 13 - 7AM (Reply to #20)
gettinbetter
gettinbetter's picture

Right on agnes!

Right on agnes!
Mar 12 - 7AM (Reply to #16)
Trulybroken
Trulybroken's picture

This is not true, there are

This is not true, there are MANY who suffer from mental illness that don't act nuts, even off meds! To call them nuts when they suffer so greatly is really not cool!
Mar 12 - 9AM (Reply to #17)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Truly

I see your point from a moral, principled, ethical and empathetic point of view; however, given the nature of the board...I think you will encounter a very passionate debate - one that might actually detract from healing...(for SOME) Like I said, I am personally open and of course, anyone else who is open to taking this discussion to that level will participate, but if I may, I think this is something that perhaps we should address in a more private forum only because the nature of the discussion may very well trigger others. In that from where some are in their healing, although very open compassionate people...when it comes to the narc issue...well, you know...and I know cause I've been there....it's only recently that I've been able to be a little more open...but trauma is a tricky beast. If you really want to explore this, I am open. If there are others, perhaps we can take a tally and maybe even open up a discussion forum I will speak with Lisa about it. But I am concerned, not with your thoughts or the right to express them, but more about the potential direction this type of discussion may have on others... Let me know in a private message...I think it is healthy and I encourage all kinds of discussion and debate, and I am equally conflicted about my stance as I am questioning myself...is this "censure" but it is not in the spirit of censuring, more than trying to look at the whole picture and trying to maintain balance. I would also like to be a source of helping get you whatever "outlets" you feel you need to put this in perspective, so let me know via pvt message and we can take it from there and of course invite anyone who wishes to delve into this area of discovery. Hugs!
Mar 12 - 7PM (Reply to #18)
ifinallygotit
ifinallygotit's picture

Truly

Thanks for trying to enlighten both sides of this discussion and be a peacemaker. Reading this thread is truly stressing me out as I am too early in recovery to feel that this site is an angry place that I need to fear if I make comments that show my ambivalence about my N and lack of strength to just charge ahead with my new life. I agree that it is a valid topic. I also need tough love to help me get unstuck, but not angry or judgemental comments from strange women. I need a safe place to learn more. If this stuff keeps up, I will be very sad to lose this new support...I need all the support I can get right now.
Mar 12 - 6AM
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Truly

You're covering territory some of us have gone through already...FOR ME...it was explained very well...however one tries to reason it away in their head...doesn't matter...moreover...feel the anger...you need to feel it till you don't feel it anymore...unpleasant as it is...don't try to candy coat crap as it will only re-surface later...let it play out there is a stage for everything...NOTE I did not say ACT out your anger...there is a distinction...LOL BUT someone wise once said...it's like a trapped raccoon...the raccoon is a victim too in a sense, but you don't put your hand in the cage... So..no he has no feelings, and no, it's not like skitzophrenia although hopefully one day it will be...it's lack of research, studying and science but uh...you and I ain't gonna be the pioneers and until then...keep your hand out the cage and thoughts on healing no more what if's....because it is magical fantasy thinking as of this moment and counter productive to YOUR healing... Just trying to provide some re-direction... Hugs!
Mar 12 - 5AM
Happy1
Happy1's picture

trulybroken

I really don't care about my narc and his problems any longer. He has shown me for years that he really didn't care about me and I turned it around in my head and tried harder with him to be the perfect woman he wanted. He deserves no more! He has no empathy and that is the bottom line! I don't feel angry every day for him, but I do have anger stages and that's part of the realization of what has happened. It's like you're waking up from a coma. So would I feel different about him? NO!!! Would I want anything to do with him? NO!!! They're heartless jackasses and that's the bottom line. We deserve better!
Mar 12 - 5AM (Reply to #2)
Trulybroken
Trulybroken's picture

Happy, don't hold back, tell

Happy, don't hold back, tell us how you really feel ;-) hahaha! What they've done doesn't change, what would change for me if it was discovered that this was a serious brain defect, would I feel different.
Mar 12 - 6AM (Reply to #13)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Truly

And after the raccoon (in this case the serious brain defect) tears you up, gives you rabies, rips apart a number of nerves leaving you unable to function without months and/or maybe even years of rehabilitation and physical therapy... I suspect you would want to at least visit the raccoon and "make peace" because of his defect... Seriously truly...yes, love from a distance but this type of thinking will set you back and I'm growing concerned... We all know and are well aware of the neruorscience involved...unfortunately I have my own neurological problems that the narc did not give too much of a fig about...they are slick, they are con men, they are addicts, they are users, they are as street as they come... Need I say more?...RE-direct and move towards YOU and the light...
Mar 12 - 5AM (Reply to #3)
Happy1
Happy1's picture

Trulybroken

I remember posting on here questions I had about the narc when I first came on. I did a lot of reading also and the book I've read probably 20 times is "the secret of overcoming verbal abuse" by allbert Ellis. This book has made me realize just how much he has verbally abused me and knocked my self confidence to another state. I'm trying to rebuild now and focus on me. This site has been amazing too. You need to do more reading and realize that your narc and my narc are not sitting and wondering about us or on a site figuring out what went wrong. This is whiny have turned it and screw him! This is about me feeling better now.
Mar 12 - 6AM (Reply to #4)
Lisa E. Scott
Lisa E. Scott's picture

Great question and great points!

We are learning more and more about Narcissism everyday. Research now tells us their brains are hard-wired differently. We are such caring people that we ask ourselves whether he can help himself or not. Regardless of whether he can, we must put ourselves first for once. Regardless of whether he can, we have a right to be angry. Regardless of whether he can, we must take care of ourselves. A Narcissist leaves us with many questions. The only thing we need to know, however, is that this person is permanently disordered and disturbed. They will never change. You must accept them for who they are and all their limitations or move on and create a new life for yourself. Obviously, we deserve better and must move on. Understanding their behavior is one thing because it helps us realize we did nothing wrong. Feeling sorry for them is another. Sure, I do feel sorry for them sometimes, but that does not mean I will make excuses for their behavior. I don't think that's what you're saying. I think your question is a good one and it does help us to realize they have little control over their actions. However, at the end of the day, instead of feeling sorry for them, we should let this knowledge be further proof that we must run like hell. They will never change. They are incapable of change. We deserve better and we owe it to ourselves to end the abuse by leaving and never looking back! I love what Happy says: "This is about me feeling better now."
Mar 12 - 7AM (Reply to #5)
Trulybroken
Trulybroken's picture

I left 7 months ago and never

I left 7 months ago and never went back and my life has been all about ME for 7 months! Part of making my life about me, was figuring out the person I chose, how they acted and why I chose them. Why I stayed! If you don't figure this out, one is bound to date the same man over and over
Mar 12 - 7AM (Reply to #6)
Happy1
Happy1's picture

trulybroken

I agree that we need to know who/what we were with. I read and read and read and feel like a different person now for knowing such a man. I'm well over figuring him out. It's ME that I'm most concerned about now. My recovery after all the pain and trauma bonding. It's a recovery for me now and I don't care what he's doing.
Mar 12 - 7AM (Reply to #7)
Trulybroken
Trulybroken's picture

Happy, I agree, I don't care

Happy, I agree, I don't care how he lives his life anymore. On my anger days, I wish him a slow death, on my compassion days, I wish him healing and peace. It's the struggle between the Buddhist in me and my ego.
Mar 12 - 7AM (Reply to #12)
Happy1
Happy1's picture

trulybroken

EGO! YES! I have had issues with this. This would be a good topic on it's own.
Mar 12 - 7AM (Reply to #11)
Happy1
Happy1's picture

trulybroken

EGO! YES! I have had issues with this. This would be a good topic on it's own.
Mar 12 - 7AM (Reply to #8)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Truly

Maybe we can find a "compassionate death?"...LMAO!...just being a chop buster... Hugs!
Mar 12 - 7AM (Reply to #9)
Trulybroken
Trulybroken's picture

Well even with all the hurt

Well even with all the hurt and damage this man caused/causes, at the end of the day, even though my anger is HUGE, I still pray for his recovery and serentiy. To live the way these people live must be horrible! This reminded me of when he asked me to be friends 3-4 months after I left and I could tell he was playing me a bit. I came right out and asked him "Is my friendship something you really want or is this about stroking your ego" His reply was, and I quote "I'm not sure, I know something inside me doesn't want to lose you forever, but I think it may be about my ego, I am so confused and feel different, I don't know what's wrong with me. Right now, I'm not good for anyone and need to get more help" In my mind he was in pain over why he feels different. Then he would do something evil and I would wish him death again. If I feel this way, I can ony imagine how someone with this disorder must feel. We have a patient at the clinic, he's actually the head of a huge psychiatric unit in the cities largest hospital. He's bi polar and during session, he prays, eats crackers and chants. My heart breaks for this man. I guess being in the healing field, I'm always trying to look at the other side. It's easier when there is no emotional attachment. oh and to add, we treat him naturally and he refuses all pharm meds. Meds he gives his own patients. Just goes to show ya!
Mar 12 - 7AM (Reply to #10)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Truly...

Yes...I got similar when you said: I'm not sure, I know something inside me doesn't want to lose you forever, but I think it may be about my ego, I am so confused and feel different, I don't know what's wrong with me. Right now, I'm not good for anyone and need to get more help" BUT the problem is that is exactly where they stop short...right there...they have moments of clarity? BUT then they go right back to what they do best...and we know what that is... Bi-polar is a little different and a lot of the other illnesses are very different from the PDI's... Check out the Orange Papers and I have some other stuff I was reading the other day trying to get it sorted in my head...I'm a little off today I wanted to share something with you but it's not coming to the forefront...hard to explain my mind...I think I have ADD!...BUT the nature of my challenges makes it harder to articulate and sometimes it's a struggle as the thought is in my head but doesn't manifest in the written...I even write words I don't mean!...so I'm going to back away for now, but perhaps sometime tomorrow I'll send you some links that kinda explain some of the stuff you're contemplating. I really have been down your path and yes, taking it to the positive for "peace's" sake I truly do get...this is also a very interesting examiniation in "ethics" but not sure if for the purposes of healing it's a good thing that's all I'm saying but I do understand where your mind is going with the examination and the questioning...medicine in and of itself is constantly based on the questioning... Hugs!