Hmmmm - We're Angry and We're Hurt and We Can't Live with these guys BUT...

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December 1, 2010 - 1:50pm (Reply to #53)
Briseis
Briseis's picture

I agree TRN1. Anger is an

I agree TRN1. Anger is an appropriate initial reaction. I'll add that each individual needs an differing amounts of time to spend being angry. And that NATURALLY, the anger will begin to drain away as healing work goes on. I have known a few examples of people who stay bitter and in perpetual "victim mode". IOW, perpetually "angry". It's like they find that anger place and build their house, rather than pitch a tent. Anger is a waystation, a vitally important one. When it SHOULD end, I can't say, I have no idea. All I can say is the "flavor" of the anger is very different in a person who is righteously angry post-Narc relationship and a person who is still raging and steaming years later. Very angry women post-Narc are still sensitive and empathic, and frequently notice that they are unhappy or exhausted by their anger. They have a love/hate relationship with it. People who've built their permanent home in anger are bitter and hypervigilant and seem to get secondary gain (ie, a feeling of powerfulness) from maintaining their anger. They put out food for their anger. They defend their angry stance with personal attacks when it is questioned. A person with healthy anger toward a Narc does not attack anyone else, and if they do, they regret it very quickly. A person with unhealthy anger feels justified if they "have" to put someone else down. It's still very much a victim mind set.
December 1, 2010 - 4:19pm (Reply to #54)
blueeyes
blueeyes's picture

Briseis?

I absolutely NEVER disagree with you ((as you are my future self, I hope)) I may be confused/disagree with someone staying in anger and putting others down a "bully" rather than much a victim mind set? I teach my kids about bullies all the time. Your description of this different type of victim is same as I describe a bully to my kids. Maybe I just don't understand the 2 descriptions being different? Ok, since I babble, I'll clarify, where is the line in the sand? When do you say unhealthy anger vs. Healthy anger? Lol. Everytime I learn something new, I must find out WHY? Sorry B. My HN is a bully, well both of them are but I'm confused why I would act anything like either one of them. That would make me nuts? I never met a woman in a state of anger and put others down. I'm either enlightened, confused or a complete moron? :)
December 2, 2010 - 1:07am (Reply to #55)
Briseis
Briseis's picture

The more I think about how

The more I think about how to distinguish them the more confused I get. A sign that I might have barked up the wrong tree or I'm going brain dead (I'm at work). I've met a "victim", who presented as a victim (on a site such as this one) who were probably the perpetrator instead just by behavior exhibited when their covers were blown. That is pretty rare. But I've seen true victims of narcs/abusers who have acted out their anger abusively, not toward the narc (that would be more reactive abuse) but indiscriminately. This is a person still needing to work on guilt and blame inside themselves. IMO, they haven't forgiven themselves yet and get triggered. I saw a several members of a forum react abusively to the board owner (different abuse board) when the board owner broke one of her own rules about posting political information. A few people openly attacked her, definitely verbally abused her publically, and other things that were shocking to see coming from VICTIMS of abuse. While people are still in the "victim mind set", this kind of stuff happens. Frankly, it's not that different than why the Narcs or abusers abuse. They think you deserve it, too. Does that make sense?
December 2, 2010 - 5:07am (Reply to #56)
blueeyes
blueeyes's picture

Yes Briseis, makes sense,

I totally see now, like sexual abuser will become a predetor because of the abuse they have suffered. I guess my confusion (much like N confusion) was why? You answered that, so thank you. I do not understand people of that nature? I certainly hope to come here or any place and seek solace. This is not the place to take old anger out on new folks trying to lear,cope and just plain survive. You said "They think you deserve it, too." That is outrageous because if I deserved it, I would be with my 2nd husband today. Most likely getting 2 kids off to school, baby to day care, work 12 hrs, answer 49 phone calls from him trying to manipulate me, get the baby, do whatever stupid errand he wanted ect.... Thanks for clarifying but I hope that none of us newbies take the "victim mind set". Ya learn something new everyday! Today I learned about a new outcome from N abuse. A road I won't travel but not to say it doesnt happen. Thanks B
December 1, 2010 - 8:06am (Reply to #52)
blueeyes
blueeyes's picture

TNR1

"Staying in anger though does more harm than good for the long term... get mad enough to go NC and have nothing to do with the N." I agree be angry long enough to let it all go and move on for ourselves. It hurts pretty bad when I have to see this man. I feel the effects of the contact. I really is a setback....
December 1, 2010 - 1:30pm (Reply to #50)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

TNR1

Perhaps I could express my sentiments better. We are going through a grief process... The Six stages I think there's six...include anger It is a natural part of the process I acknowledge that; however, because this was such a shock and what I might describe as feeling violated to a great extent - the anger may very well linger longer than it might under normal circumstances. What I am getting at or tyring to get at is that at a certain point, if we try to understand what happened from say a medical poit of view - that while the behavior is hurtful and we experienced grief - that the anger might be better placed on the illness rather than the idividual. I posted an article entitled: Sociopaths/Explanations of Brain Abnormalities on another thread.
December 2, 2010 - 11:20pm (Reply to #51)
TNR1
TNR1's picture

I don't necessarily agree...

That is giving too much credit to it simply being a brain disorder and not giving enough credit to the fact that on some level these individuals "know" they are hurting others and they just don't care. And it doesn't take into account any "nuture" influence in their lives. You could have 2 individuals who both have the same brain chemistry, but I am not sure that both would end up being a narc. To some degree I think we try very hard to understand their world, which is commendable. I doubt they try with any amount of effort to try to understand ours. In the end, we are all on a personal journey to recovery and our steps and stages to get back on track may mean taking different approaches when it comes to how we look back on our relationship and process it.
December 1, 2010 - 3:44am
Briseis
Briseis's picture

I have no problem demonizing

I have no problem demonizing anyone who behaves demonically. I also have no problem understanding that they are ill or disturbed and in need of help. IF they even would seek or accept it. A very developmentally delayed person, or schizophrenic person who murders someone, may not be culpable because they do not understand right from wrong. But they should still be locked up and prevented from hurting anyone else. I don't really care WHY they murder/damage/destroy. It doesn't change that they DO these things. It doesn't mitigate the circumstance IMO. They still brought pain and suffering to someone. Should they be burned at the stake or fried in an electric chair? Or subjected to revenge? It only brings down the people serving up the punishment. And it doesn't solve the problem. It doesn't solve the problem to feel sorry for them either. I don't. I feel sorrier for salted slugs than I do for my exNarc. He is a destructive and dangerous person though he is very rarely violent. He is also deeply disturbed and it is likely caused by a neurological impairment. I'm still staying far, far away. If there are sociopaths or Narcs out there who somehow manage to not cause misery and suffering to their loved ones, I have no problem with them. Live and let live. They don't deserve to be hunted down or shunned because of their neurology. But when they hurt me and/or others, that's a different story. I don't think it does any one any good to absolve their bad behavior based upon "illness" or "impairment". The behavior stands alone. If they are too disturbed or ill to be responsible for it, then they should be contained and treated with normal respect and rehabilitation. If they are capable of assuming responsibility, they need to be held responsible whether they accept or refuse. It's as basic as cause and effect. It would be a safer world if more people lived their life as if their behavior had consequences.
December 1, 2010 - 6:58am (Reply to #46)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

BRIE!

Statistically from what I read, the truly sick will NEVER seek help! It's part of being sick...they can't see it! I am sick but not that "sick" when I say I need help, I'm not the same level of sick... I'm talking sick... I know you get what I'm saying...
December 1, 2010 - 4:38am (Reply to #27)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

I get what you're saying Brie

However, from the perspective of dealing with our anger - for taking their actions personally... Yes we've been hurt Yes they're dangerous to us But, lets look at say an autistic child who we trigger inadvertently - take away the stimulus for a minute - us bothering them...sometimes Austistics react violently when their equilibrium is disturbed. So if we were to inadvertently disturb and austistic's equilibrium and they reacted to a certain degree although harmed, we could "understand" that it was not within the control of the Autistic. This does not negate the fact that we were harmed, but we make an allowance that there is a reason WHY we got hurt... What we seem to be dealing with here is a disordered mind that operates a certain way - albeit predatorily but that is due to the HYPOTHETICAL AND/OR ALLEGED neurological problem/disability. It's how they operate out of an illness. While very hard, painful, and traumatic for us - I'm just wondering if we could view it as more thier being in a sense powerless over what they do as well as at this time "incurable" which is why we have to keep a distance...does that help some of the anger? Rather than ruminating on How could he do this to me? Come to an understanding that he's fucked up but can't help it.
December 1, 2010 - 1:16pm (Reply to #44)
Briseis
Briseis's picture

I made a reply to this last

I made a reply to this last night and then my internet died and I was zonked anyway. But I completely agree with your last paragraph. I believe that at a certain point, the rage at the Narc is meant to ameliorate itself, mellow itself into an understanding of their wretchedness and futility. This will happen at different times for different people. It took me about two years. Off and on in that second year, I had glimmers of what I now feel pretty much all the time. The rage at my Narc is now what comes in "glimmers". It comes and goes quickly. I have one caveat. Maybe it doesn't need to be said at all, maybe it is completely and totally about ME. I felt sorry for his pathetic ass FIRST. For the seven years of the relationship. I desperately NEEDED to be angry at him, to put him out there at the end of a scope and start firing. I let the firing go on for a LONG time. As long as the anger was there. I got angry with other people's Narcs too :D . Then . . . it just sort of happened. The anger began to drain away. A kind of apathetic detachment set in. My motto became "what did I expect, he is a NARC." What he did to me is what Narcs do to everyone. I wasn't unique in some existential way. That PROCESS is extremely important. At least it was for me. The process I went through put the Narc and me FIRMLY in different worlds. Prior to that, he was my LOVER, my best friend, the person I depended upon, shared my body and heart and soul with. There needed to be a LOT of distance!! This is pure psychological, inner "landscape" kind of stuff, I am always afraid I'm gonna lose people here. I had to spend my anger believing in my heart and soul the Narc was an evil bastard. And ya know what? He still IS. He'd rob me and give me another STD if I gave him half a chance. But I also see that he can't help but do what he does. He's a Narc. He's broken and his life will have little redeeming value. Except to provide education to others, at his expense :P
December 1, 2010 - 1:47pm (Reply to #45)
blueeyes
blueeyes's picture

Briseis...

This is what scares the shit out of me: "This will happen at different times for different people. It took me about two years. Off and on in that second year, I had glimmers of what I now feel pretty much all the time." My kids are getting to the age they really need the REAL me. I understand tho. I guess it just sucks. I do not like being mad, sad, mad, sad, ect........
December 1, 2010 - 9:30am (Reply to #28)
better off
better off's picture

In dealing with recovering

In dealing with recovering members it's really important to differentiate between what is helpful for you in how you view it...and what may or may not be helpful to someone else. So.. if it helps you "to view it as more thier being in a sense powerless over what they do as well as at this time "incurable" which is why we have to keep a distance...does that help some of the anger? Rather than ruminating on How could he do this to me? Come to an understanding that he's fucked up but can't help it." ... then I am glad that it helps you deal with your anger. We are all different psychologically, and this may be what very well helps you over the hurdle to cope with what happened. And I think it's great for you to offer the perspective that it DOES help you and therefore could help another. But if someone else doesn't feel that way, then that's okay too. If someone else needs to or wants to "demonize" them (your word) and that is what gives them their peace at the end of the day, that they are simply monsters and so be it, then that is valid for them. My concern is that victims who are already coping with so much self-blame and shame, etc, generated by a N/P don't need to feel any guilt or shame about not pitying their predators. If hanging on to bitterness and hate is destroying person's life, then maybe there is room to tackle that issue, but in general, I think it's perfectly acceptable to "demonize" a person who made your life "hell" whether it's because of their neurology or not. Or not to. As the case may be. :-)
December 1, 2010 - 1:03pm (Reply to #38)
Briseis
Briseis's picture

I didn't get that Michelle

I didn't get that Michelle was encouraging a particular opinion or viewpoint about why sociopaths do what they do. And I don't see it as so very black and white, that our choices are to hate them or feel sorry for them. I do believe that even the newest or most vulnerable members have the mental flexibility to see shades of grey. Recovery is strengthened and improved by testing it against reality. The reality is that PDIs have a deep disturbance that is unreachable by modern medication and conventional psychotherapy. Their disturbance IS very comparable to brain damage. It's the personal conclusions that a person reaches that is key. And do these personal conclusions foster continuing recovery or a backslide into being too relative? My personal conclusions have hopefully increased my capacity for recovery. I certainly pronounced WRONG SAUCE all over acts of cruelty regardless of the motivation behind it. Whether you can "help it" or not, whether you have the ability to understand the consequences of your actions or not, cruelty is cruelty is cruelty. Destruction is destruction. Contain them. I don't HATE Narcs (I certainly DID for a very long time). I see them as powerful agents of destruction, but there are ways to avoid them. They are pathetic and sad and probably evil (in a human evil sort of way). I feel that way because I see BOTH the close-n-personal mayhem AND the fact that they are broken and limited creatures. Normally my heart would go out to any broken irrational creature. But I guard my heart now. I am not a punching bag. Some people (god help them) are intent upon figuring out a way to fix PDIs. I'd find great meaning in doing that. But I ain't STOOPID about what kind of havoc they can wreak on ya. A raccon in a live trap has a cute fuzzy face but just stick your hand in there to pet the poor terrified creature and you'll pull back something that needs emergent orthopedic surgery. Then bend over for your tetanus and rabies shot :D . "Demonizing" a PDI and seeing them as broken and sad creatures does not create a conflict in my head. And I give 99% of people the credit for being able to hold these ideas in their head at the same time too and WONDER about them :)
December 1, 2010 - 1:17pm (Reply to #39)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Just to clarify Brie

I noted we BOTH used the word demonized and hope you didn't think it was an attempt to throw you under the bus like a fifth grader..."I didn't do it, she did it!" when I went back to the top the second time is when I saw it, but either way, your use of demonized did not strike a nerve...for whatever it's worth... Love the raccoon analogy...
December 1, 2010 - 1:56pm (Reply to #42)
blueeyes
blueeyes's picture

Briseis and her animal anologies :D

The funniest part? I am typing this as I wait for someone to sign a consent form for their Adacel shot. LMAO! I swear the timing was insane...lol. I agree Briseis I didn't find Michelle to be pointing towards a point, she was airing out some idea's for those of us that are still in the grey area. Hey, we will get there! :) Well, first I MUST shower and second, Michelle needs her pants ASAP.
December 1, 2010 - 4:33pm (Reply to #43)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Oh Crap blue...

I just busted out laughing out loud...shower and pants...yea the real crisis' of this board...get real ladies don't you see Blue is stinky and I got saggy ass!
December 1, 2010 - 1:40pm (Reply to #40)
Briseis
Briseis's picture

I know where you are coming

I know where you are coming from Michelle. I used the word "demonize" very deliberately, in fact, I went hyperbolic with it :D I mean what I say or I don't say it. I can type fast, and backspace and reword things fast too, so when I push SEND I am ready to take responsibility for my words. How they get taken up by others, I have variable responsibility for, you know? Doesn't mean I won't regret what I say, or wish I'd used different terms, but usually that is because I'm giving a word or term an overly subjective meaning. I hate offending people like the next person. But I'm not going to stop speaking from my heart just in case it does offend SOMEONE. If someone WANTS to take it personally, that is their choice, not mine. If I mean something personally, I'll come right out and say it, like usual :) With great respect, of course.
December 1, 2010 - 5:14pm (Reply to #41)
better off
better off's picture

Just to be clear, I wasn't

Just to be clear, I wasn't offended nor was I taking anything personally, I was just describing a scenario in which a person might feel like demonizing narcs, and so be it if they want to. I was never attempting to CRITICIZE Michele, I was just pointing out that some people could take it in a way she did NOT intend. That was my point. I know she didn't intend it that way, but some people could feel confused by the comments. I couldn't care less if you want to demonize them or not. I think I already said that though. Or you could be speaking completely hypothetically, but it is sometimes difficult for me to discern.
December 1, 2010 - 9:50am (Reply to #36)
Used
Used's picture

replies

can someone reply to what i have written on vain forum, under odder and odder..thanks
December 1, 2010 - 1:57pm (Reply to #37)
blueeyes
blueeyes's picture

((used)))

I'm sorry, lemme go find it. Sheesh the new board will be sooo much easier...
December 1, 2010 - 9:40am (Reply to #29)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Better Off

Let's clarify a few points here... First of all this is a discussion, no one is preaching. And no one is telling anyone how to think. And since it is a public forum, yes, we can share so I am a bit perpelexed by the need for italics as certainly I am assuming you are directing your message to me. Next, I did not use the word demonize and quite frankly it doesn't matter who is using it but again, I sense something in your need to empasize it was "my" word. If this discussion triggers you, or you don't agree, you are free to do that. Understand that I made it really clear from the get go that this was a discussion and not meant for debate. In my estimation, there is not right or wrong answer - we are all on the same team and have the same goal. If I am misunderstanding something as I am aware sometimes text removes the other signs that allow one to fully understand intent than I stand corrected; however, I do sense a tone and I'm not sure what it is. I know that when something triggers me, I remove myself from the post and if I feel there is too much tension, I've been known to tell people I'm taking a time out. It isn't personal and tensions and emotions are at an all time high; however, I don't want to feel like in order to express myself, my ideas, my thoughts I have to walk on eggshells. But again, I may be erroneously interpreting this so if I am, please explain.
December 1, 2010 - 10:05am (Reply to #30)
better off
better off's picture

???

As for the content of my post, I'm sorry, Michele, but you OPENED the thread with "And I am very strongly opposed to demonizing any group of people on the basis of their neurology." I was discussing that. I thought my tone was respectful, but I guess I have so offended everyone from a few weeks ago, that my comments are being interpreted differently. My comments are about the idea of whether or not we are demonizing a group of people, and whether or not it's okay. I CLEARLY said that if you feel that way, then that's fine for you. I am not countering your belief. I am saying there are other beliefs as well. You also said that "can't WE view it that they are disabled" or something to that affect. I think some of us can and some of us won't. ??? I'm not trying to be hostile. What this now feels like to me is that even after two years on this board, that because I was angry about ONE thread a few weeks ago, I am now considered hot if I disagree. I am simply disagreeing from my own perspective. Now there is some invisible difference between discussion and debate, at least if it includes me. It seems like I am the one on the eggshells here. Guess I've burned all my bridges or something. I won't respond anymore.
December 1, 2010 - 10:58am (Reply to #35)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

betteroff

I used the word debate but I meant for it to be a discussion. In re-examining the thread, I don't see anyone disagreeing either way, we're discussing. You admit you are disagreeing and you have every right to disagree; however, I don't see where if anywhere anyone else is diagreeing. The topic is not a topic of agreement or disagreement, it is a topic of discussion where we are expressing views on a thought/statement someone made.
December 1, 2010 - 10:22am (Reply to #34)
Used
Used's picture

better off dont go

i dont know what is happening or what happened a few weeks ago? but please dont go ,i love your posts, i have kept a couple in my favorites.. please lets all be freinds and allies..dont goxxxx ps i have got upset on the board today b/c i realy wanted some advice but no one replied, but thats just life and things go awry dont they?, but they dont have to stay like that do they?....
December 1, 2010 - 10:13am (Reply to #31)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Betteroff

You are reacting to my questions etc as a result of your expeirence. If you read my opening again, you will see that I started with: I came across a QUOTE. What I did not do is add the quotation marks. That may be where the misunderstanding stemmed from. I know Brieseis used the word demonized in her response. I don't think last week's event is the cause of this misunderstanding but to be frank, I did feel that the italics were a little extra that weren't necessary. I can understand the word you in italics or regular font. I am an advocate for free speech or one's decision to stay mute. Apparently we are experiencing a little tension, so for the moment, given the circumstances will be the first to say we should call a mutual time out on this particular discussion unless there is more you want to express.
December 1, 2010 - 10:44am (Reply to #32)
blueeyes
blueeyes's picture

Back to the Discussion?

I was interested in this discussion and now it's turned a corner? I was really about to understand something about myself and the actions I made last night. Please, guys, I don't want a derailment because I was about to reach a conclusion (important for recovery) about what happened when I had contact, and why? Understanding this may have even brightened my day? Can we get back to the discussion? Thanks, because now I need some help to recover from this Psycho. I wonder what the hell made me cry last night? Was it what Michelle is discussing "illness" that he can't help? Did I feel bad for him? I really don't know? I do not think I felt bad for him, but I was mourning something. That's ok, I will call a therapist. lol Thanks
December 1, 2010 - 11:01am (Reply to #33)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Blue

(((Hug))) What made you cry is you got Narcked...and I am soooo sorry for all of us.
December 1, 2010 - 3:44am
Disillusionedx2
Disillusionedx2's picture

good morning Michele....

Hope you're doing better. Are you saying they shouldn't be held responsible for their actions because they cannot help they have this social disorder? Or those who loathe them shouldn't due to their disablity? stay~striving

stay~strong

December 1, 2010 - 8:14am (Reply to #25)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Disillusioned - Love your question - hope I can answer...

let me think... Well, from what I read, it's classifed as insanity. I think the old term was Moral Insanity - it's not a "social disorder" it's insanity in one of it's purest forms. So, while it hurt us, not sure if they can be held responsible - from a "moral" standpoint and yes, like you said - because they can't help it. *I posted an article about the brain abnormalities on another thread. And, I said don't remember where but to someone else - by the same token we are GRIEVING and within that process there is a place for anger...but I think many of us are having a hard time because the experience was SO TRAUMATIC...our psyche's have been severely injured - and I get that. But, for the purposes of healing...thinking that maybe striving to also understand that no, perhaps they should not be loathed because they have a disability...like every other disability we feel "compassion" for. The difference is - that this particular disability is dangerous and therefore, we cannot help them or be near them, but we can still feel the compassion and empathy from a very far distance...the same way we do for others with disabilities we "understand" like it was mentioned either here or another thread and someone said it very well: Do you mean hate the illness rather than them...and that sums it up nicely. Go through the stages feel the anger but also during that anger stage direct the anger at the illness because that is the perpetrator - the narc/sociopath is just the shell stuck in it. They look normal, but they're not and they can't help it. Because science is so far behind - we don't understand yet...but maybe someday there will be a cure...if you can, look at the article I posted on brain abnormalities from Answers.com...
December 1, 2010 - 5:13am (Reply to #2)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Good Morning Disillusioned

Thanks dear, I am feeling better...as per your question, I'm not sure what I am saying, I'm opening a debate...I like to question a lot of things - when I'm not "accidentally" running narcs over or seeking justice when in reverse...LOL
December 1, 2010 - 6:51am (Reply to #21)
Disillusionedx2
Disillusionedx2's picture

Michele, lol..I feel ya!

I'm happy to hear you're feeling better. I get it that we should not have taken his behavior, antics, shenanigans or whatever personal, it's very hard to accept his disorder is responsible for the hurt and pain he has caused, considering he is the disorder I attempted to approach N on that level, only to retreat because the venom was just to poisonous. After telling him that his inner turmoil and emptiness was no fault of his own, I asked can he find it somewhere in that pea brain of his to at least consider the damage that he does even though he may not be able to help it. I told him he remind me of a weak, injured toddler and it really breaks my heart that at times when I look at him that's what I see, an abused toddler. However, his wrath is so great it clouds the picture of the injured toddler, when the clouds clear there is Satan in the flesh. I would like to feel sorry for his tortured soul but he has to take some responsibility in it now that he's an adult who understand what's right and what's wrong. They are human beings worthy of love like every other human being, I know that I can't be "in love" with him, I love him from afar, that's the extent of it. I don't have any answers as to who should love him, nor how to love him, I empathize with him greatly, it's a horrible way to live, all I can do is pray for him. stay~striving

stay~strong

December 1, 2010 - 4:48pm (Reply to #24)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Disillusioned

I keep coming back to your post...this is like the fourth time...Yes...I think we are on the same wavelength, I just had a big ol catharsis at the bottom. Maybe the word dichotomy is good to use here... You said: I attempted to approach N on that level, only to retreat because the venom was just to poisonous. After telling him that his inner turmoil and emptiness was no fault of his own, I asked can he find it somewhere in that pea brain of his to at least consider the damage that he does even though he may not be able to help it. And just like Brie used the analogy - that can't work because these "defective" "disabled" humans are still very much the racoons in the cage...cute to look at but don't put your hands in the cage - DANGEROUS... I told him he remind me of a weak, injured toddler and it really breaks my heart that at times when I look at him that's what I see, an abused toddler. However, his wrath is so great it clouds the picture of the injured toddler, when the clouds clear there is Satan in the flesh. I would like to feel sorry for his tortured soul but he has to take some responsibility in it now that he's an adult who understand what's right and what's wrong. And it does break our hearts or anyone's heart that can feel and see and empathize and hard to reason this "vunerable toddler, with the strength of SEVEN MEN cause that's what crazy people have, and the tug between having to hate someone that sick when they can't help it but can create so much harm. Can they actually TAKE THAT RESPONSIBLITY? CAN THEY REASON? DO THEY KNOW? When we look at the legal system or issues of morality, we ask ourselves, did this person have the ability to know right from wrong..CAN THEY REASON...if they can't we can feel anger cause it's part of the process but the holding on. I'm one that can STEW...like Forever? UH, 35 years trapped in here you know?... So that was what I was kinda kicking around today a discussion - no right or wrong answers, sort of what do you think...exercising the mind a bit - getting outside the box...and to all of you who contributed, it really was helpful TO ME. And I thank you...
December 1, 2010 - 11:08am (Reply to #23)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Disillusioned

You are pretty much where I want to be albeit I won't have contact cause we don't have kids - But yes, to have the perspective at the end of the journey of healing that they are human beings worthy of love but they can't love or act human cause they're sick and we can't love them or be compassionate towards them cause they're sick and we have to stay away for our health and sanity and safety. To understand they can be monsters...but it's an illness that causes it so the hate is on the illness and the prayers go towards the walking shell. But the anger and hate gets placed on the illness, not on the human being...fully cognizant that in the early stages, one will have to abhor and create all kinds of methods to detach - whatever it takes and lack complete empathy in order to find the middle ground as the recovery progresses.... Makes sense?
December 1, 2010 - 7:23am (Reply to #22)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Disillusioned

You know, I wouldn't expect the freshly burned to be able to be open to this...but for those of us who have done the reading etc... At a certain point you know?...I mean if I let it, the hate and anger will go on forever... But is it fair? To me? To Him? To the Universe? Maybe we are pioneers...victims and perps... I don't want to hate but I don't want sadness either. Hating the illness that is probably the best place to put the anger...on the illness.
December 1, 2010 - 5:37am (Reply to #3)
blueeyes
blueeyes's picture

Morning

Michelle, I think your saying/reading is that we are forever changed from this. As far as Sociopaths getting help? Who knows? I used to always think "If he only had a life coach that followed him around to make decisions?" HAHA Then I returned from LALA land and thought "Gee, that means YOU want another man altogether." BTW, I love the IDK what I'm sayng? lol. It's nice to hear ya in the morning! Hi B! PANTS are ready Michelle...I need yo address?
December 1, 2010 - 5:55am (Reply to #4)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Well Blue - I was his lifecoach

So that right there at least has provided me with a diagnosis as you claim yours was officially diagnosed...LOL What I am saying hun is that for me for example...the anger, the rage, the feeling violated all of that, seeing it as intentional causes one to feel "emotionally raped" Yes, we were targeted, and emotionally raped and so on BUT that is the nature of an ILLNESS... That is not to say we have pity and go back and try to help because they're sick - with this kind of illness they can't be helped or cured and we know that - we also know with this illness they can hurt us...but it's an ILLNESS...so WE ARE BOTH POWERLESS the perp and the victim... You get angry at an adult that knows better - but do you get angry with a child that doesn't? You would not entrust your life to a five year old, that would be dumb right? Well it's the same with a NARC, but we just did not know they were "disabled"..."Sick" "cognitively impaired" Like I said, if you were harmed by say someone who was diagnosed as "retarded" you suffer because of the assault etc, but would you really hold anger and resentment in your heart knowing the limitations of someone diagnosed as say retarded? I don't think I would...but if I also knew that it was a dangerous retarded person, even though I knew they couldn't help themselves, I would stil stay away - but I could also have empathy which clears away hate, and anger...FROM A DISTANCE which might bring me a little more peace... Thoughts? That's my point.
December 1, 2010 - 7:08am (Reply to #19)
Disillusionedx2
Disillusionedx2's picture

Michele

That theory could help one to cope with the anger stage I suppose, I no longer feel hate for N as I once did, I do very much hate the disorder. I don't like him, but I don't hate him. I am between hate and anger, back and forth like a ping pong game, it's lessening in intensity though, I am grateful for that, hate is so toxic to oneself you don't want to stay there long, so sure, if it helps to move along the healing process I'll buy into it, kind of like a "placebo" for the soul, lol. stay~striving

stay~strong

December 1, 2010 - 9:51am (Reply to #20)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Disillusioned...

Yes, I like that, a Placebo...
December 1, 2010 - 6:54am (Reply to #5)
blueeyes
blueeyes's picture

Thoughts? for Michelle

Sighhh, this was at one point during the end game that kept me hooked. To be honest, just last night this very thought triggered me. He dropped the baby off and looked at me. And said (with tears) "you really were the best wife and I fucked it up and I can name what I did but I can't understand why? Why I acted like that and treated you badly financially? Why did I steal? I can't figure out why? Do you know why, please I need help." Ugh! I stared at him with no expression. I made steady eye contact a very long time like we were playing "stare down". Finally, he said "I'm sorry, ill just leave." I said "ok" emotionless and opened the door and he walked out. I stood frozen and cried on the door for 10 minutes. I was mourning the disorder. That was rough to type. So, I get it. one word keeps me going- UNACCEPTABLE. Our life and marriage was unacceptable.
December 1, 2010 - 8:17pm (Reply to #18)
blueeyes
blueeyes's picture

Can someone help me?

Understand if the post about last night (above) was all about? What was I balling for? Is the contact and the reality of HIS broken self and how I must stay firm? I'm pretty confused about if I handled this situation properly? Michelle you answered already. I'm looking for an opinion. Was he "trying to make sense of himself? Was he manipulating me? I wrote earlier what my gut told me that he saw me and it was ONLY what he felt at the moment. I think I was mourning/hurting from the fact he cannot understand or see. He begged me as I stood blank. It was painful. Thanks.
December 1, 2010 - 7:03am (Reply to #6)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Blue

You can't back down and you can't feel pity but to help come to terms... That might have been the truth It could have been manipulation I think they are really trapped in their own bodies I don't think they enjoy it I don't think they understand it I don't think they can understand it Their behavior is hurtful but our society hasn't evolved enough and there is no money to study this I don't think it's evil - I think it's an illness a dangerous one but it's the sickness of their mind... You can't help him and right now doctors can't either But as much as it hurts, try to come to peace with it It's almost like they're wild animals that can't be tamed...YET.
December 1, 2010 - 7:31am (Reply to #7)
blueeyes
blueeyes's picture

Michelle...

I didn't back down, I won't say I didn't feel pity because I DID. The fact that "it may have been manipulation" was the reason the pity left me. I won't lie, I felt the love and the pity and the shitty fact that he may "want to understand why". I will never know because he is SO SICK and I CAN'T help. So, there goes the whole "sickness and health" in my vows. Then again, when I vowed i vowed to an illusion. Bleh, it makes me sad yet pisses me off all in one package. The fact is that I deserve a partner that will bring out the best in me. Not need me to pick up scripts, work full time, buy everything for him and the family, get rage when I have a need, god forbid. So, I cried for 10 minutes mourning the ILLNESS. I cannot have NC at all because of the baby. He normally drops off and I send the teenager out to get the baby. They were not home and the dog was out so he brought the dog in. BAM. Contact. IDK if I handled it properly but I didn't respond. So, I guess that's acheiving minimal contact? I am still new. lol
December 1, 2010 - 7:45am (Reply to #8)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Blue

I think you handled it fine and it is a process...all pity must be had a a FAAAARRRR DISTANCE. Sickness and Health Vows...I think God understands... Put it in his hands and save yourselves as in you and the KIDS. Ask for Peace and maybe a cure someday...
December 1, 2010 - 6:07pm (Reply to #17)
Susan32
Susan32's picture

Far, far away!!!!

I remember my mother telling me about the ex-P "let God be God" (no, it didn't mean the ex-P was God, but that the matter was in God's hands) Neurologically, psychopaths and autistics are eerily similar. Their brains are more unified than those of normal people- hence the compartmentalization and rituals. When I taught the autistic student in Oregon, I was able to be understanding and compassionate with him after what I had been through. Doesn't let the ex-P off the hook. Not at all. It's like autism. Be far away, pray for a cure.
December 1, 2010 - 8:20am (Reply to #9)
blueeyes
blueeyes's picture

Michelle....

I saved me and the kids. I am staying stong, I know that he is unecceptable. I also didn't mean to act sad about my vows. Shoot, I am not religious. I just meant that I vowed that and it was phony. When it comes to PDI'S the whole "sickness and health" doesn't apply. :) Question: Did I pity from a far distance? Waiting til he left to ball out? Is that what you mean by far distance?
December 1, 2010 - 8:35am (Reply to #10)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Blue

Miss Blueeyes - first lets get real...one tuffy to anotha.. If you were sad about your vows...is that a BAD thing? I don't think so. If you were sad about any of this would that be abnormal? Would that make you weak?...like Brie says, that would make you HUMAN...LOL oh some days I wish I was a Narc... Whatever place you made your "promise" is that a better word? You don't have to be religious to keep the promise...you made a promise in sickness and in health - however, one or maybe both of you did not know there was an illness lurking that neither one of you could handle, control, cure or deal with. I don't think it was phony on YOUR Part. On his part, the Jury isn't out either way - we don't know if they are slime sucking, manipulative SOB's and CAN CONTROL IT or NOT...so we can only go by what we know and the information changes as new developments and studies occur. For our safety, peace of mind, sanity, well being - this PARTICULAR sickness/health cannot apply you are right on target with that. What is far distance? Far distance can be 2 inches away but you're not affected. The emotional far distance. Physical helps, but what I am trying to make clear is that while I am advocating understanding that this is an illness, it is not to be confused or used as a reason to continue to have contact or involvement trying to "help" this sick soul for we don't have the tools - YET and we may not in this lifetime. BUT for OUR healing - try to see this from a more "humane" perspective? The anger, the outrage, all of it is hurtful to us. If we see it in a different light it might be helpful to US. I am emphasizing this so much on this post because others read it as well, and I don't want it misunderstood that we should now don our Florence Nightengale caps and start lobbying for funds to find a cure so we can have our relationships back...LOL
December 1, 2010 - 8:51am (Reply to #11)
blueeyes
blueeyes's picture

I misplaced my Florence Nightengale Cap DAMMIT

You are too funny. I know exactly what your saying. I know I saw he was "off" but SICK and broken, NO I did not know that when I vowed "sickness and health". Shit, if I had I wouldn't have said the word HEALTH because there is none, ya know? One tuffy to anotha, I am not sad about the vows. I was sad about the illness. That's why I cried last night. Some may say "he tried to manipulate you and made you feel bad so you would let him come home." And they may be right! I have no way of knowing if he is "stuck on why and needing help?" My gut (key word) says today, "He was wondering why the moment he saw me and maybe 1 hour tops after he left. Today, he won't. He will live for his needs today and that is not ok with me." So? "understanding that this is an illness, it is not to be confused or used as a reason to continue to have contact or involvement trying to "help" this sick soul for we don't have the tools" I know and agree yet, sad sometimes about it, and like you said "that's ok." I was in love with nothing after a 12 year loveless marriage. I can be sad at times but it doesn't ruin my ability to see "reality." One thing is true "I am becoming a realist". Actually, I think I always was a realist and I am finally free to think for myself so I see it now is all, people call it stubborn. Whatta ya gonna do?
December 1, 2010 - 9:16am (Reply to #12)
better off
better off's picture

I think you hit the nail on

I think you hit the nail on the head! You vowed sickness and health, and there WAS NO HEALTH! What a great point to make. You didn't take a vow to be with a sickness. It was false premises to begin with, and you couldn't know that. Do you remember when Renee Zellwegger was briefly married to Kenny Chesney? And then she got an annulment based on "Fraud." I find that interesting. A lot of people speculated that it was because he was gay, but now that I've been thru the Narc wringer, I think it was otherwise. He wrote some song about You Had Me At Hello just from seeing her in Jerry Maguire! Then he finally met her, blah blah, the whole episode sounded like the typical idealization phase, they had a whirlwind courtship and married on the beach, and then I think she found out she married someone else entirely. Fraud.
December 1, 2010 - 10:54am (Reply to #13)
blueeyes
blueeyes's picture

Oh good, back on track, TY!

I really am questioning this today? IDK why? I feel there was no health in those vows, the vows had the word sickness tho:( Should they change to to "certain" sickness and health? lol. Fraud? I had no idea this happened between Renee Zellwegger and Kenny Chesney. I knew they had a quickly marriage and I vaguely remember the gay story. I did not know that she based the divorce on fraud. I saw him on my vacation to the Virgin Islands in a bar. There was only 3 other people in that bar, and stupid me, "I don't do country" had no clue who the hell he was until he left and the bartender told me. I didn't (prob still do not) have real great Narc radar, but he was quiet and lonely looking. Nice, and small talk came naturally. I wonder? So you think when we marry a PDI we are a victim of Fraud? Can I file divorce this way? Jesus, my mind is all over the place. I need a new therapist STAT. See, this is what happends when I have contact!!!