Should you blame the Other girl?

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November 17, 2010 - 5:19pm (Reply to #39)
NancyM
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Michele

Thanks for jumping in here, what you have said, I could have said myself. This OW issue is already taking its toll, but at least we have the balls to admit where we went wrong and have certainly learned our lessons associated with it. That is something the Narc will never do. After finding out just what a complete and utter deviant I was living with, I think I saved her from one hell of a fate.

Nevergoback

November 17, 2010 - 12:15am (Reply to #34)
Ava
Ava's picture

No way NancyM

No way in hell did you get what you deserved. You're right that with most of them their feet never touch the ground - mine N certainly never did. I was the OW, he pursued me, I fell for all his shit. Then he cheated on me with a 20 year old & I so wanted to hate her but finally I realised that I knew inside she was just as blind, and fooled, and with stars in her eyes as I was. You are so utterly right - different rules shouldnt apply when it comes to the OW. Ava x

Ava

November 16, 2010 - 11:52pm (Reply to #28)
blueeyes
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NancyM

I don't think you got what you deserved. No way! I'm agreeing that ultimately it is the N's fault as I said in a previous post. I'm saying she was dumb because when we now see a red flag like a bad relationship, we would back off now. Nothing personal about dumb comment. I was trying to say she is naïve about red flags.
November 16, 2010 - 11:57pm (Reply to #29)
NancyM
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blueeyes

I see what your saying, but I think we really do need to cut some slack to the OW, because it is the Narcs that pick their victims, not the other way around. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but it is still hindsight. It is kind of like blaming the deer for running into the mouth of a lion. Yup it should have known there was something wrong with the picture, but kinda ignored the teeth.

Nevergoback

November 17, 2010 - 12:08am (Reply to #30)
blueeyes
blueeyes's picture

NancyM

True. I agree. I was trying to use an analogy for the poster to understand that it's her being naïve. Dumb ass was not meant for anyonehere personally. :( I'm sorry.
November 17, 2010 - 12:41am (Reply to #33)
blueeyes
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ow slack

Yes, ow should get some slack if she didn't know he was in a relationship. Even if he cries that he is unhappy. A man that is taken, happy or not is not fair game. This is just my practice.
November 17, 2010 - 12:38am (Reply to #31)
NancyM
NancyM's picture

blueeyes

Like all Narcs, my narc was very clever and profiled me for a long time before he hit. When it all finally happened, the entire blame fell on me, and Narc even used that against me. Didn't I prove that I had done something morally wrong? Well yes, so I wore it. When i look back now and see what was really there as in regard to what I thought was there, I am totally horrified at the rose colored glasses I wore. Incidentally his ex became the OW during our relationship, and 6 years on she is still wanting him back. I am the first to outright reject him and I think he is finding that a bit tough, even though he was forever D&D ing me. But it's ok, I know you were not meaning to be personal.;)

Nevergoback

November 17, 2010 - 12:44am (Reply to #32)
blueeyes
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Nancy M

Yes, in your case there is always a few stories and how the end looked for you was not favorable. I don't think you were dumb. You were manipulated. Thanks for understanding. XO
November 16, 2010 - 11:11pm
Ava
Ava's picture

Hiya Godhasaplanforme

Just a thought - are you absolutely sure that she knew you were dating? I ask because months after the relationship with my exN I found out that I'd been the "other woman" for almost the first full year of our relationship. He'd moved to my city from another state, we met at work, got together & were living together within a couple of months. All the while he was having a long-distance relationship with his girlfriend in his home state [they'd been together for about a year and a half before he met me]. He told me they'd broken up & I truly believed him. He was living with me, I never heard him talk to her or any of his friends refer to her. The whole time she thought they were still together, he told her she was living on his own & that he was just staying in the city for work & he'd visit her every couple of months [always told me he was visiting family]. He spun me a web of stories & I fell for them all. Is it at all possible that this other girl didn't know or he had told her & convinced her you'd already broken up & were just friends etc? Either way, I agree Briseis that its the N who has done the most wrong here & who deserves the lions share of your anger. And if the OW was fully aware, then the saying 'you will lose a man the same way you got him' applies.... Ava xx

Ava

November 18, 2010 - 5:14am (Reply to #26)
Godhasaplanforme
Godhasaplanforme's picture

Now that I think about it.

Now that I think about it. She might not have known. He would hide all his lovey dovey comments from my FB as soon as I added her on my list. He would say horrible things about her so I would not befriend her. He told me not to visit him unannounced so that she didnt see us hanging out. theres so much more, and I'd rather not visit it all unless it just enters my mind on its own. I end up hitting my head on the wall for being such a fool everytime I revisit the past. Its like I knew it all, yet I didnt know nothing
November 16, 2010 - 10:45pm
TNR1
TNR1's picture

Being the OW...

I can attest that the Ns do a pretty darn good job making it seem as if they are incredibly unhappy in their relationship. Being told you are what makes them happy is pretty darn appealling. I am not saying that she is completely innocent, but she isn't the only guilty party. Also, I really do not like seeing name calling on this board (I am not a dumb ass or sleazy). The truth is we are ALL victims of the N, no matter what our role was in his/her life.
November 16, 2010 - 11:40pm (Reply to #23)
blueeyes
blueeyes's picture

TNR1

" Ns do a pretty darn good job making it seem as if they are incredibly unhappy in their relationship. Being told you are what makes them happy is pretty darn appealling" I would not find a man complaining about being in an unhappy relationship appealing. But that's mt opinion. "I really do not like seeing name calling on this board (I am not a dumb ass or sleazy). The truth is we are ALL victims" I have to disagree here as well. The "dumb ass" was an anology for this post (not you). Meaning if a man is involed in another relationship, chances are it's a "red flag". We all know to avoid the red flags. Nobody meant you are dumb or sleezy. I was a victim but I'm becoming a survivor. Victims can change their status.
November 17, 2010 - 4:59pm (Reply to #24)
TNR1
TNR1's picture

You missed the point...

The point isn't that he is unhappy, the point is that he is telling you that you make him happy. Mr. N never told me he was committed, he told me he was "seeing someone" casually. BTW, in hindsight,I suspect that he was seeing several someones, not just me. He used to tell me all the time that he was going to end it with her because he wanted to be exclusive with me, but when I wanted to spend more time with him, he would make all kinds of excuses (school, gym etc). That is how I came to know that this was not a "relationship" but only a sideline project. One day, he told me that it was officially over, she broke up with him. A little after that is when he D&Ded me. Obviously, I no longer fit into his grand vision. I don't blame any of the OW (and I'm sure there were others besides me)this isn't about them anyways. It is truly the Ns show. He can spin tales like no one else. Make you think that his world revolves around you when in fact, he is making you spin around him.
November 16, 2010 - 10:48pm (Reply to #19)
Janet
Janet's picture

So true. While I was with

So true. While I was with n/p there was the OW (not the one he just married by the way). I was so angry at her at the time and did a lot of blaming. But in retrospect, I don't blame her. They were in an MBA program together and I am SURE he made it seem like I was Cruella Deville and he was so misunderstood and that only she truly understood him. He probably told her that theirs was true love and somehow more pure...whatever. Name calling or judging is kind of not looking at how persuasive these people can be. The least likely person to be with a man/woman with a partner can be taken in. Peace. J

Peace. J

November 17, 2010 - 1:58pm (Reply to #20)
ShaynasMommy
ShaynasMommy's picture

I'm curious though,

"Name calling or judging is kind of not looking at how persuasive these people can be." I agree, that's true. But I hope that nobody here would ever think of me or anyone elese as judgemental, or a name caller just because I/anybody else would label a behavior for what it is, as underhanded and disrespectful, but not calling a specific person "sleazy." "The least likely person to be with a man/woman with a partner can be taken in." Again, I agree. Being a n average human being, I can't say for sure I wouldn't have fallen for it, myself. These guys are very persuasive, and can give oscar worthy perfomances. But, as a woman whose exN had taken up with an OW who was FULLY aware of our relationship, even came over to our home to meet and smile at me, and knew that we had a wedding planned for the following month,I admit that I have a hard time understanding how any woman could knowingly disrespect another one like that, no matter how a man paints them. So, out of sheer curiosity, I need to ask this question: at what point should an OW really take a look at what is going on and ask herself if she is THE ONE, and the wife/GF is so evil....then why the hell is the N still putting up with things at home? N's are always free to leave what they percieve as an "abusive" situation, just like we were. I'm sorry, I know everyone here was duped, devalued and dumped, but I gotta take a stand with Jaycee and place partial blame on an OW who is "in the know." A clued-in OW is not at fault for the shit and sorrow that an N puts her through. That's completely HIS doing. But, if she's armed with the knowledge that he is cheating on his woman, then she is part and parcel in her downward spiral to Hell, a.k.a a "relationship" with a Narc. Just my 2 cents and I stand by it. Let the floggings begin, I guess.
November 17, 2010 - 4:40pm (Reply to #21)
NancyM
NancyM's picture

It depends on the circumstances

Mine simply jumped ship, there was no preceding affair. When I saw how she reacted I told him to go back because obviously what he said about her not loving him was simply untrue and they obviously had things to work through. (i know, I know, I was dumb). But the point and only point i was trying to make in all of this is the Narc is the predator.

Nevergoback

November 17, 2010 - 4:53pm (Reply to #22)
blueeyes
blueeyes's picture

NancyM

You are not dumb. Your a survivor. I don't think I'm dumb for letting my husband financially rape me. I was brainwashed. We were trusting, not dumb sweetie.
November 16, 2010 - 9:57pm
blueeyes
blueeyes's picture

Should you be mad at OW?

If she knew he was in a relationship with you then that makes her a immoral person. She is a pig without feelings. Men who have a relationship ontop of a relationship are bigger pigs. Plus she is a dumb ass! Think about it, she met him while he had a gf. Why wouldn't he do the same to her. Stupid and easy is how I would feel. Also betrayed comes to mind, she did betray you. So, yea be pissed. You should really thank her for getting him distracted from you when your trying to recover.
November 17, 2010 - 2:05pm (Reply to #14)
ShaynasMommy
ShaynasMommy's picture

Blueeyes......you are a trip :-)

Thank you for saying what I really want to sometimes, but ultimately too sensitive to the backlash that ensues later. You took the words right out of my mouth. These things, pig, dumbass, immoral, etc. are all descriptors for how we all have the potential to be if we let ourselves to become by making unfortunate choices. When we fuck up and we know it we have two further choices: to accept that we were dumb, immoral, and insensitive to another human being we don't even know (which makes it easier, in a sense).....or we can cry when people call us on it. Our choice.
November 17, 2010 - 2:21pm (Reply to #15)
blueeyes
blueeyes's picture

ShaynasMommy

I can't imagine adding school to my list like yourself, but I did. It's a stupid "no pun intended" online course so I figured it would be easy. Well, I was an IDIOT "no pun intended" to think foolishly. Logic would have told me that I am going thru a hellish divorce, finacial rape, reched abuse and adding an online course can only complicate my life. Instead I figured the course would occupy my evenings. I WAS WRONG. I won't do this again. Apply above logic to meeting a hot guy who cries about his wife/gf? This is just my personal opinion, if a guy is taken and you know this...YOUR WRONG. Miss you...hope school is easier for you!
November 17, 2010 - 2:39pm (Reply to #16)
ShaynasMommy
ShaynasMommy's picture

Blueeyes

Oh Gawd......I wish I could tell you it was......(*sniff*) But I'm committed to it now, can't turn back now, its a total pride thing :-) and the end result (if I ever get there) will be good for me. Right now I'm taking Pharmacology. Yes, feel sorry for me. :) luv you!
November 17, 2010 - 2:44pm (Reply to #17)
blueeyes
blueeyes's picture

Pharmacology.

Ick! I need a massage just reading the word. You will do wonderful! Keep us posted... LY2
November 16, 2010 - 9:25pm
Briseis
Briseis's picture

I think this is a very good

I think this is a very good question. To deliberately flirt with a person in a relationship is a sleazy thing to do. So she's a sleaze. Blame her for that. The person who did the MOST wrong was the Narc. He was the one with YOU. He is the bigger nasty sleaze than she is. He, logically, should be the one getting the worst of your outrage, not her. Because you KNOW what is going to happen to her. Is she gonna get what's coming to her (for pursuing a "taken" man)? I am sure she will. Will she deserve what he does to her? Did you deserve what he did to you? It's pretty hard to be human AND feel compassion for someone who stole your BF, even if it's good riddance and he's a Narc. I'm not saying feel compassion for her. I'm saying be pissed of at HIM, he's done the greater crime.
November 17, 2010 - 2:07pm (Reply to #12)
ShaynasMommy
ShaynasMommy's picture

Well said, B

Well said.
November 17, 2010 - 6:19am (Reply to #2)
sickandtiredofit
sickandtiredofit's picture

I thought she was to blame at first...

Yep, I hated her the first minute he told me about her in a casually way. He had that far off look in his eyes and sung her praises endlessly. I pointed in out to him, cautined him, threatened him, warned him everthing you can imagine because I knew what was coming. He groomed her and told her "parables" of me to train her what to say, do and be so she would only get his praise. Which she did. I think this went on for a few years before they became "emotionally" intimate. I will never know how far this friendship went because he made sure our paths never crossed, but I know for sure she is a minion because when I asked him what she had to say about my finding out, he said she said, "I hope she is not mad at me!" REALLY? Then I knew, he had her brainwashed too. Oh, and he is her boss and she is a single mom going to school.She thought she was just helping this guy who was in an unhappy marriage trying to get out with a controlling wife who was using money and their child against him. Poor guy, you should see the "beast of burrden" expression he wears. I called it his "wieght of the world" look - and ladies, it works. If you can make this guy smile, for any reason, it lights up the room and you feel like you have won the jackpot. What she was willling to do? I do not know. But I can guess it became a very heavy price for her to pay as well.I would love to talk with her, but I think she is still under his control, so I am sure I would not get any truth out of her.
November 17, 2010 - 8:15pm (Reply to #3)
Lisa E. Scott
Lisa E. Scott's picture

Please stop the debate

Whoa! No one is a sleaze or immoral or any thing of the sort. This type of language will not be tolerated! Furthermore, we will never discuss this question again. What is the point of it? I see no point whatsoever to pose this question or discuss it. Obviously, everyone's opinion is going to be influenced by their own personal experience. We know this. We can't possibly remove our own emotions from this question and answer without bias. We are angry and we are taking our anger out on each other. Why is it that we feel there are only two responses to anger –to blame others or blame ourselves? Why does someone always have to be right and someone else have to be wrong? Thinking in black and white terms like this closes us down and makes our world smaller. Wanting things to fit in a perfect little box is pointless and destructive. Everyone's personal experience is unique. There is NO WAY we can possibly agree on one answer to the question of whether the OW was wrong or not. The OW is a victim just like every one of us here! That's all we need to know. Posing this question is just begging for a fight. I don't like it. We don't need more drama in our lives. I don't ever want to see another question like this posed again. If someone poses it, we will delete it. It is not up for discussion nor debate. We can't possibly all agree on this question. To try to do so will only cause us to bang our head against the wall in frustration and become enemies with one another when we should be supporting one another. I'm concerned that some damage has already been done here and I need to go into repair mode. In my opinion, some of you need to apologize, but I'm not going to specifically ask you to do so. That's your call to make. In life, there are times we must simply agree to disagree with one another. Stop trying to get to a consensus here. It's not going to happen. We must take what we can learn from the disagreement and move on. Life is how we respond to it. We need to open our minds and heart to stay in the uncertainty where we don’t know who’s right or who’s wrong. It doesn’t matter. What matters is what you learn from it. What is YOUR experience? That's what matters. This is life. This is open space. Everything is ambiguous and always changing, shifting. Finding absolute right and wrong is a trick we play on ourselves to think we’re in control. We think it helps us feel safe and secure. Unfortunately, it does the opposite! It makes us more uneasy because we know we’re lying to ourselves. Subconsciously, we know this. Instead of lying or hiding from the truth, we must be compassionate with ourselves and each other. We tell ourselves we want unconditional love from another person, yet we can’t even give that to ourselves! Instead of acknowledging when we are wrong or when we have faults, we lie to ourselves that we are perfect. No one is perfect! Not a single one of us here is perfect. To be with someone who unconditionally loves you means they accept you for who you are – they take the good with the bad and they love you unconditionally. Why can’t we do this for ourselves?! Until we can do this for ourselves, we will never live an authentic life. We must be honest and compassionate with ourselves. This is what they call loving-kindness in Buddhism. We must go easy on ourselves to find love for the parts of ourselves that aren’t perfect. If we can’t love ourselves, we cannot expect anyone else to love us. There is no right or wrong answer here because everyone's situation is unique. We will never discuss this question again on the board. It does nothing but stir the pot and we do not need that here. There's enough pain here. If someone wants to create drama, this is not the place to do it. Much love to everyone whose feelings were hurt by this pointless debate. I know people hurt each other who didn't mean to and I hope we can quickly make amends.
November 17, 2010 - 9:15pm (Reply to #10)
almostlydia
almostlydia's picture

Amen, Lisa. What is the

Amen, Lisa. What is the point exactly. We all should know by now that when dealing with an N, there really is no one to blame but the N who has created all of this. All the rest is really pointless. A normal man or woman who loves what they have does not allow another to come in between. Amen. almostlydia

almostlydia

November 17, 2010 - 9:44pm (Reply to #11)
Lisa E. Scott
Lisa E. Scott's picture

almostlydia

Exactly: "We all should know by now that when dealing with an N, there really is no one to blame but the N who has created all of this. All the rest is really pointless." No one to blame but the N! Ladies... Displacing your anger on the OW will only lead you in circles! You need to channel your anger in a healthy way. We will talk about how to find an outlet for your anger on the new board. It's covered in Step 5 (Chapter 5) of the book. The key to remember right now is that you should be angry at the N, not the OW! Please get this straight in your mind. Channeling anger towards the OW will only cause you to remain stuck. If you want to move on, you need to realize WHO you're angry with and work through your issues with THAT person in your mind, NOT the OW. In fact, if you're spending energy being angry at the OW, it will just take you more time to release the anger you have towards your EXN. Don't waste your energy on the OW! She is also a victim. This may sound harsh, but in my opinion, if you're spending all your time being mad at the OW, it may be because you're in denial that your EXN betrayed you. Give it some thought. I don't blame you for denying it. Why would anyone want to accept this. I know I lied to myself for years at the end of my marriage that everything was ok. I did not want to believe that my "soul mate" was not who I thought he was. I wasted years in denial and I don't blame anyone for blaming the OW for a long time. This is human and to be expected. It takes a LONG time to get over the EXN. Heck, I've been divorced for 8 years and I'm just NOW starting to get unstuck. I spent years in denial! It's natural to want to be mad at the OW. I just don't want to see you waste too much time doing it, which is why I'm pointing out the possibility of why you may be stuck there. It's meant to help prod you along. I wish someone would've prodded me! :) What I will ask is that no one bring up this topic again. I know it wasn't brought up maliciously and if I implied that I apologize. It is a good question for debate, but when you think about it on the larger scale of things, it doesn't matter because everyone's situation is unique. We can't possibly come to a consensus on this as a general question. I came into the discussion thread very late and at the end of a long stressful day at work. If I over-reacted by being mad the question was raised in the first place, I apologize. It's an understandable question, but now that we see the damage it can cause, I hope we can agree not to discuss it again. xoxo
November 17, 2010 - 8:30pm (Reply to #4)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Lisa if I may

The crux of this seems to be pain, and displaced anger. I can see how both sides of the fence on this issue can trigger the other it is clear as day - but the reality is that victims may have challenges with anger towards the OW... I am sure it will take some time to answer what I am about to ask; and for the moment this debate needs to be KILLED But do you think there might be paramaters to discuss these issues - Narcs are notorious for cheating its bound to come up. Maybe a brainstorming session with volunteer members to come up with ways to communicate on this sensitive topic I dunno. It's a doozie...
November 17, 2010 - 8:41pm (Reply to #5)
Lisa E. Scott
Lisa E. Scott's picture

Michele

Thanks for your feedback, Michele. By all means, we can discuss cheating as narcs are notorious for this, but we will never discuss whether we should blame the OW or not. That's a question that cannot be answered. Every situation is unique. The entire debate is pointless. Trying to find an absolute right or wrong in a question like this is impossible and will only lead to fighting, drama and hurt feelings. No one knows what transpired in a relationship unless they were in it themselves. I don't care what anyone says. You cannot generalize and make an outright statement that all OWs were wrong. No effin way. These narcissists are master manipulators, con-artists and psychopaths. We are ALL victims. We have NO idea what he is telling the OW nor should we ever try to venture a guess. Only she knows. We cannot answer this question broadly. It's impossible and I never want to see it come up again.
November 17, 2010 - 10:19pm (Reply to #9)
blueeyes
blueeyes's picture

Lisa

I see your point about this conversation being non productive. I told Nancy M last night I was sorry and I meant no disrespect. She immediately understood. I thanked her for understanding. I'd like to apologize to anyone I offended. I truly did not mean offense. I stand by my personal feelings but I shall be careful not to share personal opinions. I want to add that I'm not easily offended. I like the opinions of others. Their opinions helped me greatly. Sorry for my words, even if they were opinions. The last thing I want it to hurt a member who is recoveringthanks Lisa.
November 17, 2010 - 8:54pm (Reply to #6)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

I am in agreement 100 percent

especially being an OW... And...look at me now...HA!
November 17, 2010 - 10:05pm (Reply to #7)
TNR1
TNR1's picture

Michele...HUG

I read your posts and they resonated with me because I too wanted to help and boy did Mr. N take advantage of that. Thank you Lisa for chiming in. I agree..this is a topic that isn't worth discussing any further. It's amazing how Ns play us all though.
November 17, 2010 - 10:14pm (Reply to #8)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

TNR1

Hugs Backatcha!...We haven't communicated yet...I look forward to it though... Nice to meet you.