"Am I Who He Says I Am?"

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#1 Jun 5 - 11PM
Anonymous (not verified)
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"Am I Who He Says I Am?"

by Sandra Brown, MA

One of the chief complaints of having been with a pathological is the 'acquiring' of his view of you. He has his 'pathological world view which is the 'lens' thru which he sees himself, others, and the world. This view of the world is processed through his own pathological disorder which is why his view of the world is not like normal people's view. His is negative, self focused, grandiose, paranoid, critical, self promoting. He sees others as always wrong, out to get him, stupid or inept.

He sees himself as right, the victim, or the only one that knows anything at all. He sees you as the re-victimizer of him, wonderful and yet horrible, needed and yet hated, smart yet dependent on him, in need of his brilliance, faulty without him, as pathological as he is... and the list goes on.

A lot of the work we do with women is for them to understand that what she is feeling is often the result of HIS pathological world view thrust upon her and used to define her.

PATHOLOGY IS: the inability to change and sustain change, grow in any meaningful way, or develop insight about how one's behavior effects other. If he can't change he projects his inability on you and makes it YOUR fault or YOUR inability to change that is the problem in the relationship. He acts as if he should not be asked to change or he has changed when he hasn't. He makes you 'think' that you asked for something huge and wrong for him to change OR that what needs changing is only you and nothing in him.

If he can't grow in any meaningful way, he projects his non-growth onto the relationship and suggests it's the relationship stagnation you are really experiencing. If YOU could only GROW to accept him in all his pathology, then the relationship would thrive. If he can't develop insight about how his behavior effects others, he projects his undeveloped insight on you and says these are YOUR traits. And YOU simply don't understand 'what you are doing to him.'

All his anger is yours, all his deviancy is yours, you are "just as sick as he is" which is why you are a great match, all his lying is yours, all his manipulations are yours.

That's because in pathology they are MASTER PROJECTORS. It is in fact, one of the 'symptoms' of pathology. They take all their pathological attributes and say they are YOURS. Over a period of time of this intense projection, several things happen:

* She begins to believe that these negative and disturbing attributes really are HER personality

* She normalizes these behaviors of his (and what he says are hers) so they are less disturbing to her

* Her self esteem drops and she no longer looks for ways to disbelieve him about these attributes

* And if her self esteem drops low enough, she no longer seeks to leave

Women who seek counseling through our Institute come in 'programmed' to believe HIS pathology is actually hers. Some of our treatment is VERY MUCH like the treatment cult survivors or hostages would receive when they have been 'brainwashed' to believe they were bad so they were taken hostage. Coercion/ seduction techniques, the Stockholm Syndrome and other psychological hostage-taking maneuvers are COMMON with women who have been in pathological relationships.

* Would you take someone who was held as a prisoner of war and just send them home and tell them they will be fine?

* Would you tell a former prisoner they "don't need specialized help in order to reform their thinking to their former patterns of thought"?

* Would you tell them to just "go back to work" or "find someone else or go get on Match.com or EHarmony or Lavalife or PlentyofFish.com, etc", and all will be well?

In many cases, I have seen women come to our retreat program in the same 'shape' as people suffering from Stockholm Syndrome -- they are emotionally, physically, financially, and sexually exhausted. They have tapes playing in their heads that 'he is normal and she is sick.' She has been told for so long by a brilliant pathological that 'she is mentally ill and should seek treatment'. She has been told that everything that is black is really white and that everything that is bad is really good.

The Master Projection he uses causes similar symptoms as people who have been held captive, thrust into cults, or held prisoner in other people's belief systems. These are intensely programmed beliefs that are not 'removed' simply because you break up. Lingering, long-term effects means that specialized treatment is required.

But the first step is recognizing these symptoms in yourself -- that HIS pathological attributes have been assigned to you by him and quite possibly none of them are true. Learning to sustain that belief is where help is often needed.

Just for today, allow the possibility that none of what he said is really about you. See if all those attributes aren't really HIS...

http://saferelationshipsmagazine.com

Jun 7 - 4PM
helldweller
helldweller's picture

Ah, yes, WE are the cheaters

Mine would periodically "end" our relationship because he couldn't "take my cheating anymore" WTF????????????????? I literally caught him a dozen times with other women while I never even looked at another man. The few male friends I have met him imediately after we started seeing each other, and every time I saw them I invited the N along (he always declined). The roving eye for women was insane--just constant--and repulsive, like he was figuring how much they weighed so he could sell them by the pound. The last time it happened, the narc had come along when I gave a tour--a pub crawl--with my tour company. I'm an author and the tours are based on my books, and everyone on the bus was a fan, loved me, adored me, blah, blah, blah. I was talking, spewing information from the top of my head for an hour, wowing everyone. Not him, though. The narc sat in the back--not by me--and texted the whole time, ignoring my narrative and not even looking at me. The first time we stopped at a pub, he got off the bus and immediately struck up a conversastion with a strange woman of about twenty-five, tan, bleached, miniskirt, the whole bit, outside the bar, who he started smoking with. Even that wasn't enough for him. I went and stood next to him, while he ignored me, and a woman got out of a cab--same look, but higher heels. I thought he was going to unscrew his head trying to get a better look at her. Pathetic.
Jun 7 - 9PM (Reply to #20)
Barbara (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

helldweller - he was doing this:

http://www.lisaescott.com/forum/2009/09/14/narcissistic-projection ~~~~~~~~~ Effective Coaching Specifically for Victims of Pathologicals Feelings buried alive never die. - Alice Miller
Jun 6 - 9AM
narcnarcwhosthere (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Prisoner of WAR

thank you Sandra Brown!....that's EXACTLY what i was/am...a PRISONER OF UGLY CIVIL WAR.... as i was telling Wallaby the other day.....i'm SICK of people acting like i was a WILLING PARTICIPANT.....i was ABDUCTED from a wedding chapel...by a STRANGER...held hostage and brutalized for 17 years..... he KNEW what his plan was....but i certainly did not...but i've been blamed for it.....attacked for it....over and over and over..... i've been told to 'get over it'....'find someone else'....'forget about it'.....and that the PROBLEM is ME ...not HIM.... that's what i heard from HIM....and now it's what i hear from almost everyone else around me...... “I do not bring forgiveness with me, nor forgetfulness. The only ones who can forgive are dead; the living have no right to forget." - Chaim Herzog
Jun 6 - 10AM (Reply to #17)
cynthia (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

This is a great summary

.i was ABDUCTED from a wedding chapel...by a STRANGER...held hostage and brutalized for 17 years.. Yes indeed they were strangers, we never knew them and never will. I guess I could come up with some clever summary too. I was abducted from a funeral parlor while mourning the loss of my parents.... by a stranger... conned, swindled and raped then mentally tortured for 4 years. They know their plan from their first hello to you, they calculate and plan it very carefully. Even my best friend said the other day to me, I am glad you are FINALLY over that freak. I cant blame her though because she has never been a victim of a psychopath. Finally over it? She has no clue, you never get over it you learn to live with it and hope that each day living with it will get easier.
Jun 6 - 10AM (Reply to #18)
narcnarcwhosthere (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

exactly right, cythia......

they know their plan from the first hello....but we don't have a clue..... what happens to us is no different than what happened to Jaycee Dugard......the motivation of the PREDATOR is EXACTLY THE SAME..they just implement a slightly different technique to ABDUCT their victim......they don't snatch us off a street corner...they just use a more subtle and LEGAL approach....they MARRY us... “I do not bring forgiveness with me, nor forgetfulness. The only ones who can forgive are dead; the living have no right to forget." - Chaim Herzog
Jun 6 - 3AM
smileyfacepr
smileyfacepr's picture

Barbara

Great read...and today Im gonna start bringing my self esteem up because I know he sure has a low one..Im gonna tell myself all day I am beautiful!!!

smileyfacepr

Jun 6 - 5AM (Reply to #2)
happydaysahead
happydaysahead's picture

The things I got the most

were you (I) am SO selfish, the most selfish person he has ever met. Hmm...that's funny cuz in my whole 44 years on this earth, no one and I mean NO ONE has ever told me I was selfish. If anything, I have been told the opposite, that I do too much for people. But after hearing it over and over, well, yep, you guessed it. I actually started feeling like that and found myself questioning myself. Also, for the longest time, he would accuse me of cheating. I mean getting really nasty about it and giving me the "People are telling me stuff". Now in 6 years together, I never cheated on him once, never even considered it. Only to find out later that HE was the one cheating. OMG, these guys are experts at manipulation and projecting. And the thing is, I knew better but he had me so far sucked in, it was almost like I was paralized, both physically and emotionally. My self esteem took THE worst beating ever !! But I will NOT let him win. I will overcome this in time and I will definitely, without question be the better person. Hugs to everyone on here !! We are truly survivors !!
Jun 6 - 4PM (Reply to #15)
Barbara (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

happydaysahead

sounds like classic Narc PROJECTION ~~~~~~~~~ Moving Forward: Coaching for Victims Pathologicals Feelings buried alive never die. - Alice Miller
Jun 6 - 1PM (Reply to #3)
hitandrun
hitandrun's picture

Accused of Jealousy

Did you all experience jealousy with the exN? I sure started to get jealous because he would pull weird little things(very subtle)when he was talking to women friends on the phone so I could hear. Or subtle things with waitresses and friends. VERY SUBTLE. So subtle that I had to question my thinking...was he or wasn't he flirting? I am positive now he did this on purpose to manipulate me. That was what he told everyone that I was too jealous for him. Even accused me of being jealous of his nephew...WTF? He also asked me if I cheated on him at a conference...no, I was too gaga over him. Perhaps he was projecting?
Jun 6 - 6PM (Reply to #9)
narcnarcwhosthere (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Hitandrun....here's a little story for you

Orange Judas was a total predator...he was always paving the way to predatorize someone....anyone.....he smarmed and flirted with women, men...rattlesnakes if he thought he could get something from them..... i wasn't jealous...but i was disgusted.....one night the psycho was sprawled at one end of the huge sectional sofa watching one of his 'how to murder your wife and get away with it' docudramas...the phone rang....being it was the 21st century i had caller ID...i recognized the name as a real estate broker/ property manager i didn't like...a woman...she was calling the home number....i answered.. 'hello' 'hi! may i speak to your charming handsome husband?' ' sorry, no one like that here, toots...wrong number' i hung up on her.... he looked over at me and said..... 'was that for me?' 'Nope..someone looking for someone's charming handsome husband....so no...it certainly wasn't for you' she called back..... 'hello' 'hi...this is Kathy..' 'i know who it is..but there is no one like that here...WRONG NUMBER'... hung up again.......she called back.... 'i hope i didn't offend you...i certainly have no real interest in your husband...i hope i didn't make you jealous' 'no real interest?...i should have known i couldn't get THAT lucky...but if you change your mind, let me just tell you up front....he's available..but he comes without accessories....the car, business, credit cards, money...they're MINE...but if you decide you want the stripped down model please let me know and i'll put him to the curb for you to pick up'...... she hung up on me....and never called back...... “I do not bring forgiveness with me, nor forgetfulness. The only ones who can forgive are dead; the living have no right to forget." - Chaim Herzog
Jun 7 - 9PM (Reply to #14)
betty2020
betty2020's picture

god thats histerical!!!!

god thats histerical!!!!

only one way to go...Forward (tm?)

Jun 7 - 4PM (Reply to #13)
ewa
ewa's picture

I love it too!!

I love it and admire you! You are such a strong woman, i can imagine how much nerves it has cost you. Anyway good job!
Jun 6 - 7PM (Reply to #12)
Barbara (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

narcnarc you are too funny

I love it!!! exNH STILL gives out MY home number as "our" number to the people he's 'neglected' to tell we are no longer together (he also never tells people I am disabled, he tells them I am lazy...) Over the last 7 years I have had numerous opportunities to say "he's not here - hasn't lived here in 7 years." when they ask "is this Mrs. exNH?" I say "not anymore." Of course a couple days later he comes by raging that I "told" on him. LOL!!! just makes me want to do it more. ~~~~~~~~~ Effective Coaching Specifically for Victims of Pathologicals Feelings buried alive never die. - Alice Miller
Jun 6 - 6PM (Reply to #10)
hitandrun
hitandrun's picture

Narcnarc

Good for you!!!! What an a$$. And the woman was just as bad. Looking forward to your documentary of the disposal of narc remains. I'm confidant you have chosen the most appropriate resting place for such tainted remains. Truly surprised you haven't put them in the toilet yet and taken a big dump and flushed away(pardon the visual)!!!!
Jun 6 - 6PM (Reply to #11)
narcnarcwhosthere (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

the REMAINS......

i have something much more appropriate in mind for him.....something he won't like a bit......he will never be able to rest....he'll drag his chains and empty vodka bottles for all eternity when i'm through with his nasty ashes..... “I do not bring forgiveness with me, nor forgetfulness. The only ones who can forgive are dead; the living have no right to forget." - Chaim Herzog
Jun 6 - 4PM (Reply to #8)
Barbara (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

projection

http://www.lisaescott.com/forum/2009/09/14/narcissistic-projection ~~~~~~~~~ Moving Forward: Coaching for Victims Pathologicals Feelings buried alive never die. - Alice Miller
Jun 6 - 1PM (Reply to #4)
quietude (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

hitandrun

Oh yes ~ it's a double-edged sword with N's. They LOVE the attention of the opposite sex, AND they LOVE to drive us crazy with it on purpose. My ex had a roving eye, but he always claimed he was just observing the culture (he was from a different country)...how about that for a lame excuse!? I felt like saying, 'boobies from where you're from are just like boobies here', a-hole! Of course, I got blamed for being jealous, sensitive, over-reacting, blah, blah, blah. It's part of the crazy-making behavior. If they've confused us further, made us think there's something wrong with us, and hurt our self-esteem...that is a big time achievement for them, and they are thrilled. Again, not YOUR issue, THEIRS!
Jun 8 - 8AM (Reply to #5)
Scoop
Scoop's picture

Mine told me I had issues

Mine told me I had issues that he was helping me with .he also said that he was going to france to see if he was in love with A french bird and if not he would come home and marry me , when I said "you must be joking " he accused me of not loving him because if I did love him I would want him to be happy .lol I want him dead not happy dead .he never went to france as he spent his money on drugs .
Jun 8 - 9AM (Reply to #6)
narcnarcwhosthere (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

ME TOO SCOOP.....

that bastard did nothing but horrible things to me and then would say........'see?...see what a terrible person you are??....you don't want to see me happy!'.... and i TOLD him Scoop...i said.....'no..i don't want to see you happy...i want to see you dead'...... nothing they do to anyone matters to THEM...therefore it shouldn't matter to the person they do it to...... i hate ALL of them.and i wish they were ALL dead...
Jun 8 - 3PM (Reply to #7)
broken23
broken23's picture

this board makes me laugh:)

this board makes me laugh:) i never wished anyone death until my experience with him too. when people say he will always be miserable...i say thats not good enough...only his death could bring me comfort.