Better off... I hadn't gotten to this post from you... I wrote something very similar to Susan as well.
About the fact that they conceal that deviant... nasty part of them and present the false self in the beginning. It is the typical mode of operation for most of them. It is atypical for them to start off with aggressive/ crazy behavior--- as that will certainly scare off high caliber supply.
So... simply bc this guy is nice means nothing. It doesn't mean we have been burned or are paranoid... it means we understand how pathology works. It conceals itself in the beginning VERY VERY WELL. Then they con you. That is what they do .... simple as that.
They give little clues here and there... however nothing really GLARING like what they show us later. However, I think (hope) that if a certain level of detachment from us is kept during the early phase we will be able to see those little flags... this is what Sandra Brown told me during the retreat I went to. I remember looking at her with tears in my eyes saying --- how do I prevent landing in this situation again. I was like, "I'm a psychologist and yet here I am ... I was conned and of all people I should have known better!!" She said for women like me bc of our "supertraits" we don't give ourselves the time to be detached during the early phase of dating... She said during that time I am supposed to and wait and watch the behavior patterns. People like me are bonders, empaths, forgivers, extroverted, trusting... etc. We need to be careful ALWAYS. That isn't paranoia--- that's simply working with the system you have and respecting it.
Other... less sensitive women naturally keep a bit detached.. even date around and when they feel a red flag-- they "keep it moving"---- NEXT. However... those with "supertraits" as she describes it tend to stay... either to show him not to F with us... or bc we forgive him... or we see the good in him... or think perhaps WE just got it wrong and overreacted.
Susan... I don't know your guy and hope that this man is just sweet as pie and becomes your future hubby (yum yum)--- however if you are anything like me... you love people in general and are quick to bond and may accept him at face value. Although it sounds mean and like a scorned woman type of reaction---- but don't accept any man at face value... observe their patterns, stay a bit detached.. never tell them a darn thing about your trust issues or any prior narcs... this way and yep-- read WWLP, as I can't give better advice than Sandy Brown (sigh... I love that lady-- he he)
So I agree Better Off.... we have to be careful-our eyes are open to what is REALLY going on in that world out there. It's simply a fact of our life... being so darn awesome and special as we are (wink wink)
This new guy and I live in separate cities--in different counties, we have different circles of friends. He's trying to start a private practice;I've got a job. I was more wary about the lack of a job than narcissism... but then you look at the economy... *sigh*
I'm glad I didn't get committed to my ex-N... but I would've gladly had him committed, so he wouldn't hurt anyone else. It would be him, his fantasies, and his padded room.
I would've LOVED to have committed mine too-- rotfl.
Hmmmm he does meet the requirement of "dangerous to self or others"--- he was dangerous to ME!
Instead he is out there hurting more women, making more babies, screwing escorts, and making millions.... the perfect life in his eyes!
My ex-N summed up his past as,"I've hurt a lot of people" and "People think I'm mean." He also gave the understatement of the century with "I don't relate well with people" (damn right!!!)
There were A LOT of men in my ex-N's past. He talked about living in a house with 7 men while getting his master's degree (it took him 7 years--which always strikes people as strange) Or how he didn't get along with his freshman year roommate, a football player (he was a philosophy major, went to the same college where his father was a professor) Ladies were conspicuously absent.
Anybody who "doesn't talk about the past" is someone to avoid at all costs. Mine just lied about the past.
But I was talking about the new guy you've met. In all the "emotional intimacy" which already sounds oddly suspect for some reason, what does he say about his past?
We've gone on 2 dates. We've talked about previous relationships, what we're doing right now... but emotional intimacy,it would be TOO SOON. I'm telling things to him I've told friends who are just that... friends.
I think I was overstating my case using the term "emotionally intimate." Our emails DO have emotions involved... but they're not incredibly "intimate." In other words, I could repeat them here they're innocuous. I wasn't clear. My mistake.
Okaaaay, what has he told you about past relationships, that wasn't intimate but you could tell friends? Never been married? Divorced? Divorced several times? Still married?
Is he the victim of any of his past relationships? You know what I mean.
We've both had trust issues when it comes to past relationships. He's not too trusting because he's been burnt... and so have I. But there needs to be more elaboration. As for the divorced/never been married... I think we'll get to those when that bridge needs to be crossed.
Trust and honesty are important to me... and so far, to him.
It's only been 2 dates, we're mainly talking how to clear traffic tickets (and online traffic schools)... and nothing gets the blood boiling than how to clear one's record! The site he recommended IS on the *official* list.
Right now, I can't come to any conclusions. We're in the "just friends" stage, meeting only in public places. It's been a month... the "honeymoon" phase... not the brass tacks one...
Where did you meet this guy? You don't even know if he's divorced or ever been married? You don't know any of his friends? Did you meet him online? Or at traffic school? lol
Take it slllllloooowwwww...you know the signs to watch for. It's so hard in the first stages and one of the best parts of a relationship is the "honeymoon" stage. I hope this helps.
Here's something to read...
By Yangki Christine Akiteng, Love Doctor
I understand how exciting it is to have finally found someone but before you get too involved make sure you've asked enough questions, aren't giving in to sexual chemistry alone, acting on the promise of material gain, making premature compromises, putting commitment before true love and happiness, and ignoring the warning signs of potential problems, hurt and a broken heart.
You can know certain things about a person within a few days or weeks of meeting him or her, but there are other things that take time to know about a person in order for you to decide whether to continue or stop seeing the person.
Realistically it is not advisable to commit to someone in the first 3-6 months of a relationship when you are likely running on oxytocin, which is a chemical found in chocolate. Oxytocin creates the sense of well-being and euphoria that comes with ?falling in love.? This might as well be dubbed the period of temporary insanity, because you are not in command of all your faculties; your brain is hijacked by those lovely chemicals, interfering with your ability to think clearly.
Here are some guidelines to help you at each stage of your relationship. Do not feel frustrated if say you are at stage two of your relationship but still haven't found out things that you should have at stage one. Just make sure that you try to find out those things before you move to the next stage. Also all relationships move at different paces, the stages are guidelines to move you through to where you want your relationship to go and not rules that must be strictly followed. The idea is to know when to quit and what needs attention for the relationship to move forward.
Stage One ( 0 - 3 months). Make sure you know enough about his or her;
Family background
Attitude towards life, about love, commitment, children (if you want to have some), personal growth, professional help etc.
Spiritual beliefs and practices, ethics and morals
Sexual attitudes and preferences
Career goals, financial background and habits
Past love relationships, sexual history (including sexually transmitted diseases), break up patterns or lessons learned
Health habits; food, exercise, grooming, cleanliness - personal and surroundings etc
Fears, phobias, addictions and any mental health problems, etc.
Interests, hobbies, dislikes etc
Stage Two (3 - 12 months). At this stage you should be sure whether you are emotionally invested in this relationship or not. If you are not or feel that the other person is not, this is the time to get out. Be honest about how the relationship makes you feel.
Do you feel the person is emotionally mature?
Do you feel he or she hasn't recovered from past relationships?
Does he or she seem to have serious issues from his or her childhood that may or are affecting the relationship (needy, dependant, controlling, manipulative, abusive etc)?
Is he or she emotionally (and physically) available - do you spend enough quality time together?
Do you care more about the person than he or she does about you?
Does he or she care more about you than you do about him or her?
Are you more in love with the person's potential than the real person?
Are you infatuated with him or her for external reasons (looks, family background, social status, material possessions etc) more than you really care about the person?
Are you spiritually and sexually compatible?
Does the person remind you a lot about a previous partner (in an uncomfortable way?)
Do you exaggerate the persons qualities or lie to friends, family or co-workers about how you truly feel and about the relationship?
Does the person support you in your goals, ambitions, interests etc and are they proud of you and show it?
Is the person faithful, devoted and affectionate towards you?
Do you feel loved unconditionally?
Stage Three (Over 12 months). At this stage you should be in love. You know you love him or her and he or she loves you. You get along well and you've introduced him or her to friends, family and colleagues. Make sure that you've discussed all the possible time bombs and have agreed on how to handle issues related to this when they come up (and if there are any);
Significant age difference
Differences in spiritual or religious beliefs
Differences in social, racial, ethnic or educational background
Children from previous marriage or relationships, in-laws and other extended family
Ex-spouse (s), girlfriends, boyfriends etc.
Holidays, gifts, anniversaries and other special occasions
My ex-N was freaked out my junior year because I'd ask him personal questions, and he'd act sad and guilty... of course... it was NO SUBSTITUTE FOR THE DAMN TRUTH. He was acting like a hunted animal. I was onto something. He wasn't a good enough Narc. A GOOD player doesn't act sad and guilty through his body language;he's smooth.
When I found out his lies, I was suddenly the punishing parent... and he was afraid. I was no longer the understanding empath he could pour his complaints on, or dump onto anymore..
He was especially creeped out when I explained his actions to him... that he wanted me to be upset when I met his girlfriend from LA... that he got a charge out of seeing me angry and in tears... (I was saying this in a tone that was sometimes calm, sometimes cold, sometimes as friendly as a telemarketer) The game was up. His cards were down. Coldly and clinically explaining his actions, that he enjoyed hurting me, etc--put HIM, not me, on the defensive. I even mocked his inability to apologize as unmanly.*
As other posters have noted here, my ex-N wasn't just narcissistic, but plain crazy. He liked being seen as a bully. When his LA girlfriend made her appearance... he made such a quick dash for the exit IN FRONT OF HIS COLLEAGUES that she had to catch up. Some Narcs are incredibly stupid, despite their degrees in philosophy.
*It's hard to emasculate a man who lacks balls. Move along, nothing to see here.
DK if there are others out there like me who's a year or more out. Am I the only one still feeling like this. I'm not in pain... I'm just a mixture of apathy or extreme anxiety.
Same here, it does take a long time I am not the same either BUT better than I was when I was involved with the bastard. Its a different kind of anxiety now a feeling of just feeling sooo lost and on the outside looking in at everything, I dont know where I fit and want out of life. I am trying so hard to find a balance. He still haunts me, I dont feel the pain I felt a year ago thats for sure but I am far from feeling normal. When I cry I am not really crying over him, maybe I am crying because I am hung over from the whole experience and my mind is adjusting to reality who knows, reality is a painful thing after you have been with a psychopath. Hang in there x0x0
You are certainly not the only one. It has been a little over a year for me too. It doesn't hurt as much as it used too, but I think that is because I have become numb. The stress, the hurt, the pain, the anxiety has become so overwhelming -- I just move along day by day. I did make some positive changes that I thought might help. I bought a dog, a fun car and a new house. While all of these things make me happy, they have not filled the "void" in my heart. I hope to get back in the dating game soon, but I just have not had any desire to do so. I am so afraid that I will meet another N and I am not sure that I can deal with that yet.
nice to meet you :o)
Yes.. I can relate to the numb feeling... numbness/apathy and anxiety seems to be where I fluctuate. I used to have such a full range of pleasant emotions that i enjoyed--- not much anymore. Mostly anxiety.
Congrats on the new goodies!!! I also bought a new car. It screams F you and I'm powerful. I know I bought that kind of car only because I was feeling so powerLESS. It's a fun toy. I completely redecorated my house-- which helped me not feel triggered in my home. At one point (before I redecorated) I would look at the couch and think, "we used to sit there together" and just start crying!! Couldn't listen to the radio for about 7 months... only Sirius Sattelite radio news channels/ talk shows and NO radio or music in the house-- despite that I used to be a dancer (professional at one point) for a good portion of my life and used to enjoy dancing and doing routines as part of my work out. That part of me is still dead. I haven't danced in over a year.. no classes or anything and that was something I did ALL the time bc the emotion felt from dancing and expressing yourself that way is so powerful and enjoyable. I no longer have intense emotions in me--- except anxiety. And just FYI-- anxiety and dancing do not go together.
Thanks for writing Byrde... I see that we are in similar boats here. I hope that we move through this and fully recapture out light again. Mine is only burning dimly at this point.
I too am afraid of dating.... I will be so so cautious. Men have approached me across the past few months and one thing I guess I can be very proud of is that I was able to identified them as narcs and let them know not to F with me... bc I see through them!
It took me 3 years to "get over it." After all his flattery of my writing, I found healing through... writing. I got my confidence back. I even sent a blunt postcard to my ex-N telling him he had hurt me, profoundly, and that he had taught me "how to relate to people" by being a counter-example in his lack of responsibility, empathy, compassion, etc.
A year after my D&D,I was still drained. All I wanted to do was listen to music and read books.
Three years is a long time. I'm sure that must have been hard for you. Glad that you are doing better :o)
With me... i would never send my psychopath jerk anything letting him know he hurt me (after the relationship has ended).
They have no capacity for guilt, remorse, shame, love, etc... so what's the point. The time would be better spent painting my toenails. Besides sending him anything would be synonomous to sending the letter to a snake. A snake certainly wouldn't know what to make of all those things called "emotions"---- it would only translate into attention ..... "Oh, this is attention- LOL" I'm so amazing/ powerful that she I impacter her like this. They love drama and attention and you mailed him a little. But hopefully now you know better.
Besides... once it was all truly over I cut him off from any supply from me. No more "juicy" supply ---- yes he used to call me "juicy"----- Ughhhhhh! I used to find that so so strange given that he and I were both professional accomplished people... I found it such a low level slang interaction- blah! He said it was bc I looked so young for my age and still getting carded in resturants when we ordered drinks.... NPD jerk ... his loving girlfriend is likened to a piece of f ing fruit! What a loser.
-------------
But I know it wouldn't work. I'm still devastated that he couldn't admit how much he had hurt me. I saw him as a potential boyfriend/potential hubby... and he found ways to destroy those dreams. The public humiliation, the verbal abuse, the revelation of the OW from LA... (his colleagues didn't seem to like it, there was an awkward silence after he brought his gf to a concert,she&I had a nice chat, and he made a swift retreat)
It's the lack of remorse that kills me. How can ANYONE mentally destroy another person, drive them to depression, then never take ANY responsibility? I would love to see my ex-N hurt as much as he hurt me... but he doesn't know what pain is, only how to inflict it on others.
I've read about Cluster B personalities, and that marrying&having kids makes Ns worse. That's what's happened to my ex-N, and his parents are living with him and raising his kids.
And all I want is a DAMN APOLOGY, an honest one....
I'll save Barbara the trouble....
Sorry Susan32....you're never going to get an apology...an honest one or otherwise
N's CAN NOT do anything honest.
They are NOT HUMAN!!!
Better to spend your time and energy in therapy getting over this.
http://www.lisaescott.com/2010/03/21/narcissists-inability-apologize
~~~~~~~~~
Moving Forward: Coaching for Victims Pathologicals
Feelings buried alive never die. - Alice Miller
Could he have damaged me that badly?
yes. And for some of us it really does take a long long time. Hang in there.
~~~~~~~~~
Moving Forward: Coaching for Victims Pathologicals
Feelings buried alive never die. - Alice Miller
OMG
I watch my back...
LOL
What does he claim about his
What if he doesn't talk about his past?
Anybody who "doesn't talk
It hasn't been THAT emotionally intimate
Okaaaay, what has he told
Usual relationship issues
Where did you meet this guy?
Take it
Freaking out Narcs
Hi Jessika
I know Cynthia
Me too, it has been over a year
Hi Byrde
It took me 3 years
Wow
I wish I could haunt his dreams with guilt..
I'll save Barbara the
thanks sanctuary!
Jessika