husband wants lawyer

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#1 Jun 12 - 10PM
malloryforest
malloryforest's picture

husband wants lawyer

husband wants to know what I think about him hiring a lawyer. I don't know what to say. Seems odd that he is asking me. How would you respond?

Jun 14 - 7PM
Carolyn
Carolyn's picture

See if your lawyer has a

See if your lawyer has a friend who will act as his lawyer. It might make things go smoother. Of course its crazy for him to ask you about him getting a lawyer! He just wants you to get upset that he is going to get legal counsel and take you both on an expensive trip to drama city. Don't answer and try not to worry about it as you have no control if he does get a lawyer or not. If he has the money and wants to do this he will-if he doesn't he won't.
Jun 14 - 9PM (Reply to #14)
Barbara (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

sorry no

See if your lawyer has a friend who will act as his lawyer Sorry Carolyn, this is a BAD BAD idea. Anything happens he doesn't like - he will blame & rage at her. This guy's a psychopath... frankly, let him continue to make his own bed. And ZERO CONTACT. ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Free articles & information for abuse victims: http://abusesanctuary.blogspot.com Effective Coaching for Victims of Pathologicals http://one2one4victims.webs.com/
Jun 13 - 10PM
Barbara (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

mallory

flooding your lawyer with information on PD isn't a good idea. She's probably up to her neck in other work. However, you may want to consider ordering the book SPLITTING - reading it - and then passing it on to her saying "I hope you will find the information in this book helpful for yourself and all your other clients." And then leave it at that. I am sure she knows something is wrong with him. Courts & lawyers don't like victims 'diagnosing' their partners. It's frowned on. ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Free articles & information for abuse victims: http://abusesanctuary.blogspot.com Effective Coaching for Victims of Pathologicals http://one2one4victims.webs.com/
Jun 13 - 2AM
Barbara (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

mallory - the guy's a ridiculous waste of skin

#&*@#^&*#$!!!! First this idiot puts YOUR lawyer down because he knows you still listen to and even believe him - just to make you nervous. And he was out of line. Now he wants to know what YOU think of him hiring a lawyer? O M F G!! What a collosal ASS he is!!! Methinks the jerk is a little nervous about "defending himself" in court now. What's hysterical is your lawyer must have made him NERVOUS, which is precisely why he's asking you that question. He's SOOOO obvious and SUUUUCH a moron. I thought his idea was you'd both use the same lawyer to save money... or he was defending himself. Wow, he must be scared... shows that he knows his behavior is socially unacceptable so he's going to try to get YOU off kilter to help him. FORGET IT JERKBOY! Mallory, he doesn't give a RAT'S ASS what you or anyone else thinks - he's using this as a way to re-establish contact. I repeat, unless its a logistical question about the kids - NO CONTACT. Forward that to your lawyer and ask if she would answer him. Personally, I would NEVER respond to that or any other non-child logistics question. He's made his bed, let him BE A DAMN ADULT and make his own decisions! Think about it, if you say anything and he hires someone he doesn't like - he will BLAME YOU; if he doesn't hire someone - he will blame you. No Contact assures that he will have no one to blame but himself (tho he may weasel a way to attempt to blame you anyway, but who cares? he's not worthy of anyone's respect or attention anyway) Frankly, you don't owe him a response. He is going to try every way possible to reassure himself that you are still listening and believing his bullsh*t and to suck you back in to communicating with him about ANYTHING so he can work in some covert control. NO CONTACT NO CONTACT NO CONTACT NO CONTACT NO CONTACT NO CONTACT ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Free articles & information for abuse victims: http://abusesanctuary.blogspot.com Effective Coaching for Victims of Pathologicals http://one2one4victims.webs.com/
Jun 13 - 7AM (Reply to #11)
grossot
grossot's picture

i agree

I agree. Do not respond. Yow cannot communicate rationally with people who are not thinking rationally. They have this way of wording things. To make you think even the oddest ideas may be good ones. He's trying to intimidate you as he always has done. Gain a good rapore with your lawyer and let N defend himself however he choses. Why can't he just leave you alone and go intimidate gf? Do not be intimidated by this tactic. Realize that he's scared like Barbara said. What kind of lawyer would represent him anyway?! My N has a lawyer who is just as N as him! Its very interesting to watch them communicate. You don't have anything to be nervous about. Say nothing to N! Be kinder than necessary to everyone you meet; for everyone is fighting some kind of battle - anonymous- :o) nolongercontrolled
Jun 12 - 11PM
quietude (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

response?

honestly, my response would be F*** OFF! (sorry, initial reaction...) Mallory, he IS odd, and manipulative, and abnormal. That's why he ~ #1 asks you dumbass questions #2 still thinks that he has the RIGHT to talk to you about ANYTHING All communication should be between your lawyer and him or his stb lawyer, if anyone's desperate enough to represent him...
Jun 13 - 8AM (Reply to #2)
malloryforest
malloryforest's picture

of course someone

Of course someone would be desperate enough to represent him. I guess I am pissed because he promised that with everything he has done, he would not fight me in court I mean, if he is not going to fight me and jack up all of our costs, why won't he just hear out the offer. Why does he now have to get a lawyer? I just don't want this to drag on, and I don't want a fight. I mean, come on, he knows what he did is wrong. I have no desire to take him to the cleaners, I just want what is legally mine to get me in a position to take care of myself and the kids. I am not going to keep him from seeing his kids, so what the heck? I am just afraid that he is going to twist this all around. I do not want to be victimized anymore than I have been. He is so manipulative, and he really believes his own stories. He really believes he is this nice, generous guy. If he is so generous, just don't fight me in court. So tired and worn down.
Jun 13 - 1PM (Reply to #8)
Barbara (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

mallory

because he promised that with everything he has done, he would not fight me in court I mean, if he is not going to fight me and jack up all of our costs, why won't he just hear out the offer. Mallory - you are still LISTENING to and BELIEVING him. Remember if his lips are moving he's lying. STOP LISTENING TO HIM AND STOP BELIEVING HIM! Do what's best for you & the kids and tune him out TOTALLY. THEY ALL BELIEVE THEIR OWN STORIES!!! THAT'S WHAT Ns DO!!! He probably will twist things around - WHICH IS WHY IT IS VITAL YOU SAVE AND FORWARD TO YOUR LAWYER ALL THE TEXTS AND EMAILS HE SENDS YOU BECAUSE he's ALREADY buried himself!!!!!!! Be calm - try not to worry about him. He doesn't worry about you & the kids - believe me. ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Free articles & information for abuse victims: http://abusesanctuary.blogspot.com Effective Coaching for Victims of Pathologicals http://one2one4victims.webs.com/
Jun 13 - 7PM (Reply to #9)
RenewD
RenewD's picture

Mallory

Yea Mallory, Barbara is right. You're listening to him. You're brainwashed, everyone else isn't! They won't fall for his twisted reason like you fear. It is blatantly twisted. He can't fool people with it. No judge or lawyer in their right mind will believe that what he's doing has merit. He may hire a lawyer to defend him but, they will never convince any judge that he's got a leg to stand on with his story like you fear... He has already buried himself. He's warped!! Don't worry that anyone will take sympathy on him, what he has done is just so wrong and everyone in the legal system will see that... An attorney may represent him but, it still won't save him. ~Denise~
Jun 13 - 9AM (Reply to #3)
quietude (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

court

ya, I was kind of joking...there is always a slime-ball lawyer who doesn't care WHO he/she represents... This is the problem with contact...it gives him a chance to get inside your head and mess with it more, giving you new worries and fears to deal with. Hopefully, your attorney is ready to react either way, whether he decides to back down in court or make a fuss. She should be prepared to deal with whatever circumstance comes up. She's been through this before, hopefully she can offer you some reassurance as well.
Jun 13 - 7PM (Reply to #4)
Barbara (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Going to Court Against a Narcissist

In William Eddy's book 'Splitting', he describes Narcissist and narcissists as persuasive blamers. Indeed, many Narcissists are incredibly persuasive, particularly in a sprint. Over the long haul, people can generally figure them out for what they are, but when you first meet a Narcissist, often you like them a lot. In fact, sometimes you even fall in love with one. Since they don't have the gas to go the distance, they often engage in whirlwind courtships, and you end up married before you know them. Frequently, this all too fast marrying leads to an all too slow divorce. Going to court versus someone with Narcissist Personality Disorder (Narcissism) is another disorienting trip through Alice's Looking Glass or to Oz. Because many high functioning Narcissists appear normal or even attractive while out in society, one of the greatest risks in going to court is the Elmer Fudd -vs- Bugs Bunny syndrome. You may appear to the court to be making outrageous statements about a person, who to the court, appears to be totally normal and rational. The judge might even 'fall in love' with the Narcissist in the sense of making a judgment that they are more believable than you. This is all too often the case because of their short term charm. You cannot allow this to happen. Since you only have control over you, exercising constraint is very important. You must not be too passive, too aggressive, too angry or not angry enough. It's a delicate balancing act in a cauldron of high emotion and slippery facts. Contrary to popular belief and the Hollywood view, court is not about finding the truth. It is about perception. The perception of one man or woman, the judge. As a human being with limited knowledge, and limited time to collect facts, the judge is only able to make decisions based upon what is presented. Don't expect your lawyer to turn everything around at the last minute by making your soon to be ex-spouse break down Perry Mason-like on the stand. Many Narcissists are highly persuasive over short periods of time. Since most court appearances are very brief, relatively speaking, the mask that they wear while in public is difficult to see around during these brief encounters. It's not the Judge's fault. If you fail, usually it will be because there were not enough admissible facts, or you didn't prepare sufficient or persuasive enough evidence, or the lies of the other party were more persuasive. What to do There are a few simple things that can help with this a lot. The most important thing is to focus on evidence. Evidence is not what you say, or even what you know, but is rather what you can prove under the rules of evidence. Evidence can come in the form of witnesses, documentation or perhaps media (tape recordings and so forth). It is also important to educate your lawyer on the situation, or cheaper, find a lawyer who is already educated in matters of personality disorders. Familiarize yourself with the rules of evidence, particularly the rules of hearsay, as they are important to what you can and cannot present in court. The Narcissist personality is at home in the court system. The court system is all about making black and white decisions, guilty, not guilty, divorced, are all digital states. Does this sound familiar? For the same reasons that mediation with Narcissists fails, going to court is often a successful venue for the Narcissist personality. You have to put on the "full armor of God" when you go to court. The time for nice is long since past. Being assertive and forcefully truthful in court is vital. Be cautious of appearing too stoic though as you could be perceived as anti-social. Understand the process of divorce in your state as close to the beginning of the process as possible. Make sure you understand discovery, orders to show cause, preliminary hearings, Ex Parte hearings and trials. Be prepared for each of these appropriately. Being VERY prepared for the earliest hearings, especially those involving temporary custody of children is vital, decisions reached early in the process have a way of "sticking" throughout the rest of the child's life until the age of majority (typically 18). So don't let a lawyer tell you that the initial hearings are just temporary, and not to worry, we'll fix it later. Line your ducks up early. Know the role of each person who could be involved; the judge, the lawyers, the Guardian ad Litem, Special Masters, Evaluators, etc. Make sure you understand projection. It is a powerful tool of the Narcissist in court. Understand that Narcissists have a sense of entitlement that knows no bounds. When the Vikings first went to Paris, they were given piles of loot to go away and never come back. This giving in had the opposite effect, and the Parisians had no end of problems with the Vikings for centuries afterwards. They would have been better off fighting hard the first time. The same holds true for court battles with your NSO. If it is supported in your jurisdiction, get a third party appointed to mediate minor problems. In some jurisdictions, these are Special Masters, Guardian Ad Litem or private third party services. Use of these services to schedule visitation and resolve other minor issues is far cheaper than going to court each time. In addition, going to court is often such a slow process that the issue doesn't get resolved until it is too late. Prepare for potential divorce years ahead of time. Keep a journal. Be on top of the financial dealings of the household. Keep your records or copies somewhere besides the primary residence. Get a post office box. If legal in your jurisdiction, tape record or surreptitiously video tape raging. Keep all of this secret from your spouse. While all of this feels very sneaky, you may be very glad you did this later. Understand that the court may see any current actions of your spouse under the guise of "divorce induced stress", not understanding that these behaviors have been going on for years. You must show the pattern prior to filing for divorce to be persuasive. Understand the role of evaluators. These are the people who generally decide things like custody. The judge just rubber stamps their decision nine times out of ten. Make sure to take the evaluation process seriously. Bifurcation is a useful tool. If you can get your marriage ended prior to deciding the issues, this de-escalates the situation for the Narcissist. They know they have lost you, and thusly their abandonment trigger has been fired all at once, and won't have as much ammunition to fire in the future. This can speed things up and save a lot of money. The Boy Scout motto, "Be Prepared" applies doubly to this situation. You may not believe that your spouse will lie in court. Be prepared for it as a distinct possibility. Know that it does happen in most cases. It comes from self defense. We believe in our society that even murder is justified in cases of self defense, so when their very existence is about to be snuffed out by your abandoning them, lying is justified in their minds. They may not even think of it as lying because due to their cognitive distortions, extreme feelings create extreme facts. First impressions are important in court. Dress appropriately. Be calm. Be fully honest from the very beginning about the deficiencies of your NSO. Don't hold anything back, but at the same time don't appear angry. Just present your case forcefully and assertively. This is hard for a non to do because we don't want to damage our NSOs. You simply cannot afford to be nice to the other person in court, it won't go your way. Be civil, not merciful. Never allow your NSO to be given a lie detector test. They can often fool these devices because they all TRULY BELIEVE the constructions they have created in their minds. Your NSO can be persuasive simply by repeating lies. Repeat a lie often enough, and people will believe you. One of the more difficult decisions is whether to bring up Narcissist personality disorder itself before the judge or the evaluator. If you have a firm diagnosis from a therapist who has been working with your significant other for some time, you might seriously consider it. If you have a difference of opinion between therapists, or don't have an official diagnosis, I'd say forget about it. Does that mean they win? No. What it means is that you have to focus on the behaviors not the diagnosis. You know the behaviors they exhibit because you know which lines in the DSM describe them. Most Narcissists, for example, rage. Focus on the raging. If you have a witness of the raging, get that person to the evaluator and if necessary to the judge. Trying to prove that they have Narcissism is NOT helpful. Court brings out the worst in everyone. This is doubly true of Narcissists. The gloves are off, and they are fighting in their mind for their very survival. Remember the analogy from SWOE about the four year old being left alone in the mall and that's how someone with N traits feels all the time? Well, a Narcissist in the middle of a divorce may feel they are being left out on the ice to freeze to death. They now know that they were right all along, and that it always was your intention to abandon them. You are now the anti-Christ. Their world view is that if they are going down, they are going to take you and everyone else who 'caused' their problems with them. The time for walking on eggshells is long since past. Be safe, get a security system, move, whatever is necessary, but stop walking on eggshells. Stop ALL communicating off the record. Communicate ONLY through your lawyer or special master. While this may seem slow, ineffective, or expensive, it will be quicker, more effective and less expensive over time. Your emotional outbursts will cost you later. Giving in early will be unlikely to produce a good outcome. Some of the best results come from fighting hard. Don't let them think you are still the pushover you were when you were with them. Don't hold back facts from the court because they may offend your significant other, in fact by embarrassing them in court, you may help cool their desire to visit court again. Without Kids If you don't have children, count your lucky stars, twice. All you have to fight over is things. Money, cars and homes can be replaced in time (assuming the stupid economy ever recovers). Alimony can be paid (if you are male). You might even be ruined financially, but then again, without the drag of Narcissism on your life, what might you be able to achieve? Most women who divorce end up with less resources than they had before. Most men end up with more, despite the fact that men most often pay alimony. In many cases, mediation will proceed trial proceedings. We discuss mediation elsewhere, but we'll mention here that entitlement is the key feature of the Narcissist personality that enters into mediation. If you are married to a Narcissist, but are not currently considering divorce, at least consider sterilization or long term birth control, so that you don't have to go through this with children should things change in the future. In addition, having a child can trigger abandonment feelings in your significant other and change relationship dynamics so much that divorce then becomes inevitable for the sake of the children. Read the books on divorce, and have an attorney in mind, since it is just as likely that your significant other will file for divorce abandoning you before you can abandon them. With Kids If you have children, the situation gets incredibly more complex and expensive. Understand the evaluation process, ex parte hearings, and definitely read all the books you can get a hold of on the subject of divorce, custody and especially the books discussing personality disorders in this context. You may be tempted to quickly settle all monetary issues of the divorce in favor of your soon to be ex-spouse in order to focus on the children. DO NOT DO THIS! First, it increases their sense that they will get everything they want (entitlement) and may induce them to fight even harder for the children. Second, it implies a feeling of guilt that is sensed by the court or evaluators. If you can express the importance of your children to everyone EXCEPT your significant other, that is the best course. With your significant other, up until you are in court, just say, "I'm sure that we both have the best interest of the children in mind. It will all work out for the best." Meanwhile, behind the scenes, fight like hell for them. http://www.bpdcentral.com/bks/spy.php ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Free articles & information for abuse victims: http://abusesanctuary.blogspot.com Effective Coaching for Victims of Pathologicals http://one2one4victims.webs.com/
Jun 13 - 9PM (Reply to #7)
malloryforest
malloryforest's picture

Thank you

Thank you Barbara for this information. I have to say that it sends shivers down my spine. I know I am doing what I can, but I am still so afraid. Should I start sending my lawyer information on PD? Would that be looked down upon?
Jun 13 - 7PM (Reply to #5)
RenewD
RenewD's picture

crap.

Crap, Barbara...that's some tuff stuff! ~Denise~
Jun 13 - 7PM (Reply to #6)
Barbara (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Denise

but true! It was written by an attorney who's been to court against many pathologicals. Better to be informed than let some worthless N walk all over you. ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Free articles & information for abuse victims: http://abusesanctuary.blogspot.com Effective Coaching for Victims of Pathologicals http://one2one4victims.webs.com/