Peter Pan

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#1 Apr 21 - 6PM
better off
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Peter Pan

I am reading a book I got from the library called The Peter Pan Syndrome: Men Who Never Grew Up. It's great! It was written in 1983 (hard to believe that was 25 years ago! ) I just googled the author and he died in 1996, so that was kind of disappointing.

Anyway...it's eerie..the narcissism and immaturity of Peter Pan. I read the original to my son a few years ago and I remember thinking about him actually being a sad, selfish character.

I am enjoying the book because it talks about how to PREVENT this in children, and with two boys, one starting adolescence, and all the craziness at home, it is very interesting reading. I recognize some things there that I think I need to address.

I'll post a few things out of the book later...I think you guys would be interested in the "mother" issues...as in they want us all to be Wendy. Some of it really made some light bulbs go off about my husband...and his mommy.

Jun 4 - 12AM
Carolyn
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When that book came out

When that book came out there was a sequel called "the Cinderella Myth" I think you might like that book also.
Apr 22 - 9PM
Barbara (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

sorry

I am sorry you think that's what I am doing, betteroff. I will just say that with a normal mind - it's impossible to wrap your head around the actions & motivations of an abnormal mind. Even psychology says you just can't comprehend. So be sure you aren't wasting time trying to unravel something when that's time that could be spent on yourself. I promise I won't respond to you again unless you ask. ~~~~~~~~~~~~ My site: http://abusesanctuary.blogspot.com Cost-Effective Coaching for Victims of Pathologicals http://one2one4victims.webs.com/
Apr 23 - 12PM (Reply to #19)
better off
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I like you Barbara. I

I like you Barbara. I didn't mean that I didn't want you to respond to me. You have a lot to offer. What I was trying to say is that I am very sensitive about "feeling corrected" when i am trying to express myself. I can't say anything at home, even make a joke, without immediately being told, no, you're wrong and getting a black and white statement I'm expected to adhere to. And the second thing is that I think perhaps you've misinterpreted some of my comments to mean that I am excusing certain kinds of behavior instead of just investigating its flavor. My H especially...as I don't see him exploitative of anyone but the kids and me. He's busy desperately trying to get everyone else to like him. Of course...that doesn't mean he likes them though. It's all weird, what can I say?
Apr 22 - 3PM
better off
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I finished the book. It was

I finished the book. It was hard to put down. I have a sense of peace about my two guys right now as I think they (and myself) were pretty well-described by it. The pieces fit better than "classic" narcissism, especially when I think of my H and the "good side" qualities he has. I felt like this book speaks more to what's going on inside his head actually. Sadly, I didn't know OM well enough to know as much as I'd have liked, but we talked often of the insecurities of growing up and stuff about our parents and we got where we are. Peter Pan meets Cinderella. Anyway...I could suddenly see my H as a blustering boy pretending to be tough. I think about him lecturing me "state trooper style" as I call it when he literally looks down at me with his arms folded across his chest, and tells me what's what. Now I can simply imagine Peter Pan pretending to be captain, and it takes all that emotional power away!! THAT is what he's doing! And through Al Anon I'm releasing all that fear/shame/guilt that makes me feel defensive about my own decisions and choices. I think these guys fall in love with the Tinkerbell in me...but then they want you to turn into Wendy (madonna/whore). Here's an excerpt in the section discussing the conflicts and dichotomies of PP's (peter pan..he refers to the guy as the "victim" of peter pan syndrome) Kindness vs Cruelty This is probably the most painful conflict for a loved one to handle. The PPS victim may leave you in the morning with a warm kiss or hug of kindness only to hit you with cruel sneers in the evening. He expects that his lover or his wife will endure his immaturities and nastiness because THAT'S HER JOB! Your destiny is to put up with his cruelty, excuse his insults, and love him no matter what he does. He never understands your rebellion or expects to apologize. He believes "you'll always love me no matter what I do." The PPS victim takes his wife or lover for granted. He equates his mate's love with a mother's love. Adult love is distorted to the point that a wife or lover is never supposed to expect more of the victim than what he chooses to give at the time he chooses to give it. He doesn't understand that adult love is conditional -- it involves give and take. Rather he is the taker and his wife/lover is the giver. If a woman challenges this inequity, she is seen as a bitch who doesn't know how good she has it. Needless to say, if the conflict remains unresolved, there is no hope for the development of a mature loving relationship.
Apr 22 - 5PM (Reply to #16)
Barbara (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

doesn't need to be...

...a "classic Narc" to be a narc Peter Pan IS a Narc. don't minimize what they are. http://howtospotadangerousman.blogspot.com/2008/03/how-pathological-is-too-pathological.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~ My site: http://abusesanctuary.blogspot.com Cost-Effective Coaching for Victims of Pathologicals http://one2one4victims.webs.com/
Apr 22 - 8PM (Reply to #17)
better off
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I'm not minimizing it. I'm

I'm not minimizing it. I'm working out what a thousand and one details about my relationship mean and how they fit into the puzzle. For my own peace of mind, and to KNOW what to avoid in the future. And to figure out what the fuck we are ACTUALLY arguing about when my husband is in some kind of tantrum. I've enjoyed this particular book because it goes into great detail about the mass of insecurities that is driving all this stuff. FOR ME it makes ME FEEL better and better able to process it all with less emotion...achieving detachment if you will. That this has NOTHING to do with ME. I know we are all telling each other that, but it still takes time for it to sink in after years of messages that everything is my fault, even when I know it's not. At the same time, I am getting better at listening to myself and recognizing when I am "going Wendy." lol A lot of this is just thinking out loud. I get bullied enough at home. I know it's not your intent, but please stop banging me over the head!! I am working through this my own way, in my own style...and just ruminating over some of the nuances in all this. The traits are on a spectrum...I'm not saying it's "okay" to have particular or less traits.
Apr 22 - 4PM (Reply to #7)
better off
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victim vs rescuer

Victim vs Rescuer The PPS victim knows a thousand ways to feel sorry for himself. He mumbles when confronted about his cruelty, turns to ice when encountering an angry wife, amd sucks his psychological thumb when his overbearing mother tries to run his life. If he had lived in Old Testament times he might have been first in line to make a sacrifice of his self-esteem to appease the gods. Yet this same willing martyr takes it upon himself to save you from the world. He has secret ideas about how you're supposed to behave, and he'll run out to do a good deed for others while you don't even know where he is or what he's doing. He seems to rescue everybody else but just stands motionless when you need help. To understand this conflict you must remember that Peter Pan refused to see females as anything but mother figures. Once you realize that the PPS victim sees you as a projection of some ideal mommy, you can imagine how he reacts when he hears that mommy needs his help. First of all he doesn't understand how a perfect mommy can be improved upon. He makes you as perfect as he wants you to be and is dumbfounded when you don't conform. Second, he is afraid to offer help to you because, with his low selfesteem, he is sure he will make a mistake. His biggest mistake is in not even trying to help. The easiest way for him to cope is to withdraw from the situation or deny (sometimes vehemently) that you have any shortcomings. If you understand these two reactions then I expect you will protest "but I don't want to be his mommy!" Fine, but make certain you aren't ACTING like his mommy. [end quote] THIS is what I went thru when diagnosed with ADD and depression...it was like NO. NO you don't...and really it was almost like....How DARE you even talk to the doctor about it!! His reaction was so bizarre. Now I see it as him freaking out because there can't be anything wrong with "mommy." Did I ever tell you guys he is always making comments that I should dye my hair black. Black. I am scots-irish with a light complexion, auburn hair, and freckles. But guess who has black hair of course...Mom!
Apr 22 - 8PM (Reply to #9)
better off
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I agree, I think it's

I agree, I think it's totally passive-aggressive. I read Living With The Passive-Aggressive Man, and that was my first step in understanding that there really really IS something wrong with him. Again I like this PPS book because it fleshes it out about the "sex role conflict" and all the hangup about his parents, because I have been trying to unravel the whole family. They are very enmeshed and the whole thing seems really warm and close on the outside but is a big mess under the surface. What I like most about reading it is tackling the stuff that's going on with my sons. It's narrowing the focus for me...my oldest is 12. I now feel like I have more specific things to talk with his counselor about...because I have fears about my relationship with him that grows in reaction to the crap that goes on with his dad, yet his dad is the male role model. The last thing I want to be guilty of is some kind of emotional incest that MAKES him passive-aggressive or abusive later. I try not to lean on him, etc...or be too close emotionally, but he knows exactly what's going on at home and feels like he has to defend me or protect me and yet he still identifies with his father of course, who picks on him. It's very difficult.
Apr 22 - 8PM (Reply to #10)
cassiemay
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passive-aggresive

You can't possibly "make " him passive aggressive or anything else. Be careful about taking the blame. Yes, we all make mistakes and it is useful to us to understand how we might make positive changes for ourselves. I have struggled with this for so long. But as many on this site have said it's not always that easy to sort that all out rationally, At least I know that for myself. How about some more positive role models for a man? I know this sounds ridiculous, like how easy is that??? Does he have uncles or friends who might provide some other input and examples? Be brave, be strong, be a role model yourself, as hard as that seems at times. I know. It's not always possible. It's ok. Hugs....Cm
Apr 23 - 12PM (Reply to #11)
better off
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I know what you're saying

I know what you're saying about "making" him a certain way, but there are things I need to stop saying to him. For instance, when he does do or say something like his dad I get really mad, and when I'm correcting him, I'll say he's acting like his dad. Well, he doesn't want to do that. Yet he's just a kid and beginning puberty, etc...so it CAN start those wheels turning that "if I act like my dad I hurt my mom, and I can't hurt my mom, but if I'm not supposed to be like dad, then, who am I supposed to be like..." and that stuff, over time, does in fact lead to passive-aggressiveness and not wanting to grow up properly. For one thing they start going thru that sex role conflict when they start pulling away from mom (feminine) in order to become masculine. Believe it or not, this sensitive kid who cares about me...all that can be turned on its head where he feels guilty for wanting to be a man, and also the idea that women belong on a pedestal, etc. And the end he could just become a jerk. He does have a great guy for his counselor...and his football coach is awesome. But the only person they have to watch in an intimate relationship with a woman is their father. The other thing I'm doing wrong is that because of Bossy Dad, when we are trying to go somewhere or do something and he is all anxious and controlling, one of the kids will be like can I do XYZ...and when I'm frustrated and angry I'll just say, ask him. It's up to HIM. They are children and even tho they SORT OF understand sarcasm and frustration, etc...the message they are really getting is that everything IS up to the man. The man gets to decide, and if he doesn't, he should just act like a horse's ass until he gets his way. Dads are the bosses. Honestly this is what happened to my H. He barely has a relationship with his dad, who's an ass to his mom, and he was the one close to his mom. But she has played the guilt strings all his life (and still does). He's supposed to make it up to her. Meanwhile he goes around acting like his asshole dad (behavior he HATES in his dad) like it's going to make his dad like him or something. He's still a little kid trying to get his parents' approval...that they will NEVER give him... and he's resentful as hell about it and takes it all out on me. Because that's my job (in his opinion). And his mom drives him nuts too, yet he wants me to act like her, as long as I don't ever need or want a single thing he didn't think of first. Well...I could go on and on. LOL But I won't.
Apr 23 - 12PM (Reply to #12)
cassiemay
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better off

Sounds like you are doing a lot of good insightful thinking. Perhaps your thoughts about all those things will help you find a way to make some changes that you think you should as well as put things into a bigger perspective. I forget.....are you in counseling? That can certainly help to sort these issues out as well. You are thinking and that's good! I am always interested in what I can personally learn about myself and my own mistakes....after all, that's growth. The mire can occur though if we are not objective enough to see where our responsibility ends and becomes another's. With children, you just want to protect them and do your best. Who;s right, who's wrong must often take a back seat to what's best for the children. It's funny, children think adults may know "everything". At least they Want to think that because it makes them feel more secure. If only they REally knew......it's not so easy to be an adult! I remember when I was a teenager and rebelling against my mother for separation issues. I would be so critical of her and I know now that I hurt her deeply. Some things one never realizes until one is of a certain age and has had certain experiences. :-( On a lighter note, I remember her telling me several times: "Just wait until you're MY age!" And ya know what? She was right. CM
Apr 23 - 2PM (Reply to #13)
better off
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Chauvinism

My son and I kind of share a counselor. He thinks we are doing really well under the circumstances. He has intimated that he sees a whole lot worse..because neither partner is living in reality. He tries to encourage me that I am doing a good job handling things as they stand and working toward becoming more independent. I think he has a real soft spot for my son. Here is a segment from that PP book about chauvinism that SO described (IMO)my spouse and what I DON'T want to happen to my son. "Chauvinism is a key ingredient in the PPS victim's "maturity" for a number of reasons. It closes the gap between him and his father. He follows in his father's footsteps and feels that now his father will love him. He sees himself as a man's man and believes that Daddy will eventually praise him for it. It explains away his anger and guilt toward his mother. His chauvinism dismisses Mom's complaining as an unfortunate but natural inclination of women. Chauvinism answers the nagging self-doubts associated with the man's sexuality. He decides that his sexual inadequacies are actually the girl's fault. SHE has the sexual hangups, not him. He concludes that the problem is that women take advantage of his generosity and kindess. This in turn increases his callousness. It cements his relationships with other men as it defines his masculinity. It also gives him a chance to find steady work in a "man's world" where his problems with women are shared by his boss and co-workers/ Finally, and maybe most important, chauvinism is a PPS victim's way of pretending he is a grown-up. It gives an overall consistency to his life of pretense and denial. Hand in hand, narcissism and chauvinism give him a self-serving attitude that is rooted in self-deception. His prejudices become wisdom; his rigidity, understanding; and his callousness, worldliness. It's amazing how a soft, sensitive kid can turn into such a social monster. In fact, the more sensitive he was as a child, the more entrenched the chauvinism is in the man. This really shouldn't come as a surprise. Once you grasp the emotional insecurity associated with loneliness and sexual conflict, and see how narcissism permits the victim to excuse his shortcomings, the emergence of chauvinism as the final symptom of the PPS makes sense. It's the logical, albeit irrational, outcome of a struggle that has been going on most of the man's life. To round out your understanding of the PPS victim's chauvinism, keep in mind that the sexist attitude is not so much an attack on women as it is a defense against rejection. It's another in a long list of lies perpetuated by the victim to make himself feel justified in living the way he does."
Apr 23 - 2PM (Reply to #14)
better off
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chauvinism in the novel

PETER: Wendy, one girl is worth more than twenty boys. PETER: No, you must not touch Wendy; it wouldn't be sufficiently respectful. WENDY'S MOTHER: But, Peter, I shall let Wendy go to you once a year for a week to do your spring cleaning. Put her on a pedestal. Deify her humanity; worship her divinity. But make sure she cleans your house and fixes your meals. She has 20-fold value over men, and there's no way to touch her and respect her at the same time [madonna/whore]. However, her life begins and ends with a clean toilet bowl and non-sticky rice.
Apr 23 - 2PM (Reply to #15)
cassiemay
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better off

Oooh...I Love that! Oh YEAH! Been there, done that. Thanks for the laugh! CM
Apr 22 - 5PM (Reply to #8)
Barbara (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

sounds PA

PA is now part of the Destructive Narcissist Pattern DSMVII diagnosis: http://passiveaggressive.homestead.com/PATraits.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~ My site: http://abusesanctuary.blogspot.com Cost-Effective Coaching for Victims of Pathologicals http://one2one4victims.webs.com/
Apr 21 - 11PM
Elena
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Peter Pan

Better Off, Peter Pan is the perfect name for these guys, their immaturity is really something for their age. I would see so much of this in my Ex-Narcissist, and I would get so frustrated, so I would tell him "Grow Up!", and - Oh my God! He would get so angry at me when I would say this, he hated the concept of growing up, or the concept of responsibility. And he acted like a little boy when I would say this to him, he would look at me with such resentment, like a 5 year old would look at you when they are upset trying to get their way. And by the way, the movie "Hook" about Peter Pan with Robin Williams was one of his favorites, that one and Woody Woodpecker cartoons, truly a child in an adult's body. Sometimes I asked my self - "I wonder what it feels like to be with a real man?"
Apr 22 - 6AM (Reply to #5)
Barbara (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

peter pan illustrated

A great read that will put the Narc/ Peter Pan thing in perspective: http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/six.html BTW - at least Peter Pan had ethics and empathy... ;) more: http://emotional-verbal-abuse.suite101.com/article.cfm/male_socialization ~~~~~~~~~~~~ My site: http://abusesanctuary.blogspot.com Cost-Effective Coaching for Victims of Pathologicals http://one2one4victims.webs.com/
Apr 22 - 1AM (Reply to #3)
Lisa E. Scott
Lisa E. Scott's picture

Ruby

"Sometimes I asked myself - "I wonder what it feels like to be with a real man?" LOL, I have so been there, sistah!
Apr 25 - 7PM (Reply to #4)
ms_jeeves
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WORD!!! :-)

WORD!!! :-)
Apr 21 - 8PM
Barbara (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

omg I read that book

When it came out!! I got it after I'd been married to exNH for a couple months!! Foreshadowing... of course Peter Pan Syndrome is (as my therapist told me) now known as NARCISSISM. And we know you can't cure adults but you can get children started on the consideration & empathy track! ~~~~~~~~~~~~ My site: http://abusesanctuary.blogspot.com Cost-Effective Coaching for Victims of Pathologicals http://one2one4victims.webs.com/