What if the Mask Doesn't Come Off with the OW?

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Jul 7 - 8PM (Reply to #45)
Gullable1
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Love n money

My narc, gave me a ring, 2 weeks later wanted to leave me for a teacher, 2 weeks after, said I could make everything better by buying home a house. I couldnt produce a house suitable enough in a desirable location, he took back ring. Still wanted house, his summary.... You don't love me. Somebody beer me, this seems normal somehow
Jul 6 - 7PM (Reply to #39)
Gullable1
Gullable1's picture

Crap?

35 years? I think there are women who never have an epiphany? The one ah ha moment. We've all been taught from an early age to be married, married = happy. We all know many women who fear being alone. Sounds like once the poor woman became Ill she simply resolved to finish her life in complacency, be thankful your done. Financial reasons? Insurance? Lesser of two evils maybe. Your free. The has to be some solace there.
Jul 6 - 8PM (Reply to #40)
SoaperGirl
SoaperGirl's picture

You're right Gullible1-there are women who never have an epiphan

When we first broke up, while I was in a lot of hurt and confusion at the abrupt D&D, I didn't know what I had been dealing with. I thought it was a normal breakup, he was rebounding - and I was trying do a lot of research on finding a way to get him back (I could gag over that now!) Then in the midst of my research, I came across one woman who called her ex a "narcissist". Suddenly, a light bulb went off in my head - then I knew! Without that one woman's post, I'm not sure when I would have ever caught on if ever that my ex as a narc!
Jul 6 - 7PM (Reply to #35)
Journey
Journey's picture

Soaper, there are many

Soaper, there are many reasons why people stay in abusive situations - emotional and financial dependence, lack of resources for escape, loss of will power or hope about having a better life... These things are what happens to the human spirit with constant emotional abuse of which I'm sure she had plenty. Likely she had no support group to help her and isolated from a young age regarding developing one. Questioning why she stayed implies there was something wrong with her (in my opinion) and I think that is dangerous territory. Many of us on the board have stayed way longer than it would seem logical to do. If mine had not left himself, I could see myself still with him and still in confusion suffering the abuse of his control. I am sure you are very right in saying she must have suffered horribly. But, asking why she stayed is like thinking there is ever just one answer and it seems to put the blame on her for not knowing better or for being too beaten down to have any will left to escape it - as if THAT is her fault. I just think it is a fine line you tread with this post between curiosity and judgement, which may trigger many here who had been with their ex's for a long, long and tormented time. Sorry, just had to say it :) ((hugs))

Journey on...

Jul 6 - 7PM (Reply to #36)
SoaperGirl
SoaperGirl's picture

No, I was trying to understand - not judge the woman

I do feel enormous compassion for the woman...I have a small amount of video footage of her working on putting some Christmas lights outside. The narc comes by, and she greets him with a big smile "Hi Honey!". I kind of think maybe she loved him an awful lot, and perhaps even believed, he might not be able to survive without her. I can see where years of constant abuse would beat a person down. She moved in with him when she was 18 years old and a virgin (perfect narc fodder IMO) - awfully young IMO. He was around 24-25 when they met, and married two years later. I agree, if the narc had not left me for OW, I might have stuck around myself. My heart goes out to the poor woman and what she went through. I don't think she had that happy a life. We already know narcs can be larger than life, seem the love of our lives. I expect, she was probably much like myself. I do not judge or condemn her. No, never!
Jul 6 - 7PM (Reply to #37)
Journey
Journey's picture

I didn't think that was your

I didn't think that was your intention Soaper, don't misunderstand please. I do see your empathy in your post about how she must have suffered. It is truly tragic what her life must have been like with him - especially at the end based upon your description of how she died. I just know there are a lot of members here that have put themselves down in posts for letting the abuse go on so long with their ex and it struck me that your post about how she could be so subservient etc. in order to do that might trigger more self blame amongst some survivors on this forum. That kind of self blame can prolong our pain and negative self worth for a long time which is the last thing we need in building our esteem back up in recovery, is all. I don't think for a moment you would ever imply that intentionally!!

Journey on...

Jul 6 - 8PM (Reply to #38)
SoaperGirl
SoaperGirl's picture

Not a problem Journey - I've blamed myself and I wasn't

even in it that long, no more than 14 months in a LDR. I was never under his absolute control in the strictest sense, but I was enough. I adored him and would have done anything to make him happy. Toward the end, the abuse was increasing, and I was walking on eggshells around him. I was starting to emotionally withdraw and not spend that much time with him on webcam to avoid setting him off. Little did I realize his being too busy to talk with me, was likely when he was courting the new OW, my replacement. I could never judge another woman harshly for something I myself could be said to be guilty of. Yes, the more time that elapses, and my emotions fade for this dude, I am grateful, I am healing, and thankful, I am free of him, and free to to meet a kind gentle, decent man someday I hope. Thank you for all your kind comments everyone. Much appreciated. Thanks!
Jul 6 - 7PM (Reply to #29)
Susan32
Susan32's picture

Yikes

That's PAINFUL to read. 35 years married to a Narc... it was a death sentence. And his absolute coldness&aloofness as she died. It's hideous. It shows his behavior didn't change at all, did it? He mistreated you... and now the OW he's milking for her money. The ex-Psych prof (a cerebral Narc who preferred masturbation) idolized Leo Tolstoy, who was married to Sofia for FORTY-EIGHT YEARS. Leo Tolstoy was a MAJOR EPIC Narc. How Sofia stayed with him till his death in 1910... it's shocking. He abused her-threatening to kill her when she was in pain after giving birth to their first child, verbally abusing her when she couldn't breastfeed, packing his bags&threatening to go to America when she was in labor with their last child. The ex-P idealized the Tolstoys' marriage. He thought the master/servant relationship is what marriage is. He looved a Schopenhauer quote that says that women find fulfillment in complete subservience to a man. "How can a woman live that way?"-Gaslighting. Brainwashing. Trauma bonding. What we've all gone through. It's a tragedy that some women never do see the light&leave. She was with him for 35 years, and he took her love for granted. After 35 years of marriage, he's off watching TV. Not unlike Leo Tolstoy, who left his wife&children in poverty when he died, cruelly&publicly abandoning them. When Leo was dying, he didn't allow his wife of 48 years to be at his side. What your N's wife suffered must've been horrific. Chills my bones.
Jul 6 - 7PM (Reply to #30)
SoaperGirl
SoaperGirl's picture

I imagine you are right Susan32

"How can a woman live that way?"-Gaslighting. Brainwashing. Trauma bonding. What we've all gone through. It's a tragedy that some women never do see the light&leave. She was with him for 35 years, and he took her love for granted. After 35 years of marriage, he's off watching TV. My heart goes out to her. She died at age 54 of lung cancer, 4 years after battling breast cancer twice! Myself, I was diagnosed with breast cancer several months after being with him1 There seems some weird parallels in place. Thankfully, the narc left me and I am healthy now. Your take sounds reasonable to me. At the time he left, I was absolutely devoted to him - so I was crushed when he left me for OW. Now I feel like I was under his spell, in a trance or something. It boggles my mind that I put up with his abuse. I didn't see it all that often, but it was enough.
Jul 7 - 7PM (Reply to #31)
Susan32
Susan32's picture

The Last Station

I know one of the posters here had this movie on her Netflix... it's about the final days of Leo Tolstoy. It's mainly focused on Sofia, who was married to Leo for nearly half a century. It somewhat glosses over Leo's narcissism, but not completely. Sofia was an 18 year old virgin when she married the 34 year old, already famous writer Leo. (I was an 18 yr old virgin when I met the ex-Psych prof, he was 32, just as your ex-N's wife was an 18 yr old virgin when she met him) "The Last Station" might be triggering.... but it does show how fixated Narcs are on $$$ and control. Leo was paranoid about his wife&children having his $$$... even tho he was in his last days. When Leo abandoned his family, he went off into the snow, caught pneumonia&eventually died.... he blamed his wife for "driving him away" when in fact all she wanted was reasonable closure. He even left her a nasty letter to read after he died. Sofia was so much under Leo's trance that after he died, she went to his grave, daily, apologizing. The ex-Psych prof assumed I'd do the same for him. When Leo abandoned his family... they were left on the Czar's pension, basically, welfare. Sofia outlived Leo only by 9 years, tho she was 16 years his junior. Life with him had worn her out. I wonder if NPD is the reason why there are growing cancer rates. Stress aggravates cancer cells. You managed to survive cancer AND the Narc!!! Not only did you survive, you THRIVE!
Jul 7 - 7PM (Reply to #32)
SoaperGirl
SoaperGirl's picture

Stress related cancer is a controversial issue

I truly believe that yes, stress and cancer are frequent bedfellows. Of course, there's also the fact that there are cancer causing toxins in a lot of our drinking water and food supply may have something to do with it as well. Well, I did bring this issue up with my oncologist, and he doesn't believe there's any connection - they can't seem to scientifically prove or disprove a connection - and this guy wants proof! What I do know is that prior to being diagnosed with breast cancer, I had spent a couple of years in highly toxic employment environment..the relationship with the narc just seemed to add to the situation. They do know that when the mind is under stress, it also affects the body too. You can't convince me otherwise that there is a clear and definite relationship between cancer and stress. Oh, I'd love to see that movie. When I checked Netflix, it wasn't available at that time. I hope to see it soon though!
Jul 7 - 8PM (Reply to #33)
tresor2
tresor2's picture

SoaperGirl

I too was diagnosed with early stage breast cancer a few months ago. My take on it...NO SURPRISE. I had the surgery and will have radiation and I'm fine. I got cancer due to a lifetime of stress, not eating right, worrying, perfectionism, a difficult daughter, a stressful job that I hated and a series of abusive relationships. Some were with N's/psychopaths and others with people who needed help but were not necessarily N's. Bottom line, I put others 1st and years of negativity damaged my cells on a molecular level. I lost my soul a long time ago. Recovery looks like this: Plenty of sleep, healthy diet, exercise, supplements, meditation, accupuncture, hypnotherapy, clean living, supportive people and speaking my mind when I need to. No holding back and no stuffing feelings.
Jul 7 - 8PM (Reply to #34)
tresor2
tresor2's picture

Your Medical Conditions–Is the Root Your Relationships?

http://saferelationshipsmagazine.com/sandra-says Good article by Sandra Brown.
Jul 6 - 6PM
Steph
Steph's picture

I really love what your

I really love what your "healthy self" concludes! We all have that little nagging voice in the back of our mind....the "what if".... It's not logical though. It's just a residual thought from the abuse and brainwashing. A narcissist or any type of abuser.....will NOT be different with the next woman. Even if he doesn't have a personality disorder, but has abusive traits because of someother reason.....he won't change without extensive therapy. Has he done that?? The mask will drop, the new woman will be heartbroken, and the N/abuser will be on to the next. EVERY TIME. Steph
Jul 7 - 7PM (Reply to #26)
Gullable1
Gullable1's picture

Stay strong

Im just hoping actually he does find a new ow, or one night stand as I've mentioned in other posts. I did the ditching this time, (gulp) Usually he is the most dangerous when I'm to blame for making him hurt. I should have tried hard not to upset him... It was always my fault when he broke up with me, my job to make him better so he didn't have to do horrid things, usually I did. It's my fault... Get ready for vindictive ride, fist stop make me pay!
Jul 6 - 6PM (Reply to #25)
Gullable1
Gullable1's picture

The health self

Why is it so hard to make peace with the healthy self? I knew my narc was a nut, he has never, ever once been in a relationship that is stable, or faithful. I'm sure, moving on, the rest will end with th same flagrant demise and destruction. Oddly, this brings me no joy. Im most saddened by my actions, i knew better, Yet I allowed this to continue. I rewarded all bad behavior by trying desperately to "fix". I was told by my therapist I created this system, of poor behavior and reward. This is why I'm so upset. I want out. Far out. One day down......
Jul 6 - 12PM
Deidre40
Deidre40's picture

Journey

I agree with you, Journey. Excellent insight and assessment! I think that they need drama. Attention. Adoration. In the beginning stages of all courtships--those things exist. On both sides. Once the narc gets comfortable...usually after ''I love you'' has been exchanged, they start testing their partner. Pushing the envelope. Testing ways to make her jealous. Testing the reactions. Testing her boundaries. Testing her weaknesses. That is how they determine the extent of love from the other. If you keep doing as they wish, you get treated well...whatever that might look like per narc. What I have come to believe is they 'take' tips they've learned along the way...with me, he learned that I liked a calm, yet assertive man. He was very aggressive, and mean. Not just with me. With many. That said, I lurked today on that website, and see his whole demeanor has changed. He was suspended off of there, so that could play a part. HE HAS to behave himself. But, think he wants to throw it in my face...''see dee? Look what you passed up.'' But, he's been married 4 times, has kids he could care less about. Words on a screen don't impress me a bit. I also know he's active on a dating site. I looked recently and saw he's active. lol Meanwhile, he's telling everyone...on the site...how he is enjoying his new woman. lol And many others, I'm sure. Too bad she doesn't know that, tho.
Jul 6 - 12PM
Joy2me
Joy2me's picture

OW

I have wondered about the OW many times, actually have tortured myself over it many many times. This is what I have concluded that has helped me. I don't know about everyone else but my ex-NP husband had two wife's before me. When I met him he told me he was divorced from his wife (at the time I thought it was wife #1 didn't know she was really wife #2) in any case our courtship was fast and by the 7 or 8th month he was living with me. We were married for 8 yrs and were together 10 years. I believer there were 2 affairs before we got married and there were 2 more after we got married that I can proof anyways. So while previous wife was busy worry over me as I had become her "OW" here is what was happening: 1. within 8-9 months living with me first 3 free, I had to say "hey, you must help pay for things around here. If I had not he wouldn't have! 2. Within a yr he was already fooling around. 3. By the 3rd anniversary he had his first affair 4. Fixed "me" after the first affair and then within 1 yr later he was in another affair. 5. spent 2 yrs separated getting my head filled with bullshit lies about a changed man that he now was. Embraced church and christianity, what was wrong with me not seeing the change! 6. After divorce found out he had started another affair wiht another married woman, plus never gave up contact with the previous affair partner. In between all that crap I just listed was the usual narc stuff, lies, ragging against me and the kids, undermining, gas lightening. All the usual crap they ditch out. So now we are left to wonder what did wife #2 have to worry about? Nothing, he made my life I am sure just as miserable as he had made her's maybe worse I was the only wife that stayed as long as I did. Wife #1 was only married to him 2 years, wife #2 was only married to him for 3yrs, stupid wife #3 (me) hung on for 10 miserible years. But I do have something the first two do not have...I divorced him, I left him where as with them he left them for other women. Their mask does fall off the real question is how long before the OW see's that it is off?
Jul 6 - 5AM
Puzzle
Puzzle's picture

I think we all worry about

I think we all worry about this, and my list of things tresor2 is similar to yours...because I'm not rich enough, pretty enough blah blah blah. I always wonder if my N met a hot woman, confident, sexy, smart, successful, rich etc....the trifactor..would he be kinder to her. But Journey made a great point which has helped me realise alot...she said they eventually become bored and need to create drama...there would need to be drama because otherwise they would freak out if things were smooth sailing. They thrive on drama, silent treatment and power trips. The whole goal for them is to make known that they are in charge and to do that with the type of person they are attracted to (strong/ confident), they need to work their hardest to break that person down to nothing.
Jul 6 - 9PM (Reply to #21)
tresor2
tresor2's picture

Puzzle

Puzzle: We are both enough. My list are the lies that, somehow, I came to believe about myself very early on. The self-esteem issues have always been a problem and that's why I ended up with abusers. The truth of the matter is that, the negative things I believe about myself aren't true and i'm sure they're not true about you. My ego wants me to believe this crap about myself so I stay stuck...I'm used to it. Healing is about learning to love everything about myself unconditionally. The N got away with his abuse because there was a part of me that believed I wasn't worthy and I got caught in a cycle trying to prove to him that I am worthy. They love to see us suffer and that's why they pour salt in the wounds. It's all part of the sick, sadistic way of getting their jollies.
Jul 6 - 7AM (Reply to #14)
SoaperGirl
SoaperGirl's picture

Narcs and psychos get bored. Even when they get what they want

Thank you Puzzle and Journey for your take on the matter. Yes, I do remember because I was stable and rock steady, my narc had to create drama or else he'd get bored out of his tree. I think you are likely right in your predictions. Yes, I do worry that since the OW in my case enjoys an upper middle class life-style (and I am legally "poor" living on S.S. and a small state pension), that her having $$$$, a nice home and successful business may not be enough to keep him in check. It is all about power and being in control after all for a narc/path. I kind of think my narc may move a little slower and tread more carefully, at least until he finds a better deal or gets what he wants from the OW. In the meantime, he'll be working on weakening her and making her emotionally dependent on him (I think he already has!), and he'll be slowly chipping away at her self-esteem. For me, my main question would be is how long does this farce of a relationship go on?, and how long can he maintain the pretense of loving her before that mask drops and he reveals his real cold and cruel self? I really want to know! Any other opinions?
Jul 6 - 9AM (Reply to #15)
Smitten Kitten (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

SoaperGirl

I have a couple of thoughts on this and think about two possible scenarios with mine as well. If your Narc is mainly after her money, I would think that would cause him to fast-track the relationship that much harder so he can finally relax and take the mask off, but only AFTER he's got access to her funds. Depending on how badly they want something should determine motivation in keeping up the act for as long as necessary. Six months? A year? Years? Once their goal is achieved, the incentive will no longer be there to keep up the pretense, and this is usually the point at which they get bored too. Conquest achieved, game over, time to move on. On the other hand. They like a challenge because they DO get bored so easily, they like a chase, but they are also lazy and keeping the mask on takes energy. If it takes longer to get the new victim completely hooked because she's less trusting, scared, whatever, will he stay interested longer because she presents more of a challenge? He would also have to use more energy and pull out all the stops, so to speak, to break her down into finally trusting him. If this process takes too long, will he get frustrated and tired of the effort he has to put in because it's too much work? Will the mask start slipping because he's not gaining control fast enough, so he looks for an easier target? While they like the chase, they also like the kill. Can they go the distance if there's something they want badly enough?
Jul 6 - 10PM (Reply to #19)
tresor2
tresor2's picture

Money

My N was a multi-millionare lawyer and didn't like to pay for anything except a meal. I think that's part of the N thing...seeing what they can get away with...power and control. Towards the end of the 8 year on/off circus and after the D & D, he once asked to borrow $50,000 and a second time, asked me to put my house on the market because he wanted to borrow $300,000 to save his properties from foreclosure. Now that I think about it, when I first started seeing him, he asked me to invest in real estate with him. He must have been testing to determine if I had money or not. At the time, I was flattered that Mr. Big wanted to conduct business with me...I didn't know anything about N's.
Jul 6 - 10PM (Reply to #20)
Shareebles
Shareebles's picture

Theyre so weird with

Theyre so weird with money. When my N started liking me, he told me one day he was gonna be a rich pilot, working for an international flights company, living in a big house, spoiling his wife "i know who i hope it is". (pssssh shut up loser.) And then when we were together, he didnt even have a proper job, he had some secret source of money that he refused to tell anyone about, he was getting money off the government when he wasnt even elligible and they took it away. He wouldnt pay for things anymore but then he didnt want to look bad infront of shop assistants, so i had to give him the money or my card so it would look like the man was paying. He still doesnt have a job, but he wants to move to the richest, most expensive city in Australia. He has a fancy car which costs him like 60 bucks of petrol per day. he always talked about buying a boat, buying a plane, buying his own appartment. but then hed go spend all his money on some junk from ebay. then hed be broke and i (having a small part time job on low pay) would have to pay for our dinner.
Jul 6 - 7PM (Reply to #17)
Gullable1
Gullable1's picture

How long for the mask?

I think you don't get both, freedom from the abuse in addition to worrying what or who the narc will be with. I think the healthiest adaptation, " who cares". I do agree, they get bored easy, like ADD for relationships, if it's not the dynamics in a couple setting, it's the latest electronic, toy, gaming device, etc. I have often thought there was a stimulation issue. The narc must be constantly stimulated. Narcs will constantly update skills, My narc is attracted to professional women, he would say he values intelligence, in truth, narcs are lazy, and in need of a financier. I still say, be happy and thankful they will move on. It's freedom!
Jul 6 - 9PM (Reply to #18)
Smitten Kitten (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Who cares?

That will come in time. But right now, some of us still care and still have questions about understanding all the dynamics of this disorder and what makes them tick, and it's part of the healing process discussing it. If not, we could all call it a day and quit discussing what drives Narc behavior and just talk about our attempts at getting through another day without them and live with the CD, because "who cares?" Seriously. We are told we need to get it out and purge, but when we do and are told, "focus on yourself and not him," it kind of makes us reluctant to talk about what's really on our minds. Realistically, we are here looking for answers because the focus is still on them and it's a process finding ourselves and moving on. I can lie awake all night wondering about all these stupid questions I have in my head, ruminating over and over, for days/weeks on end, or I can come here and get them out and get them answered. And this is STILL after reading and reading for months about the disorder. YES, I understand the disorder. That doesn't mean I still don't analyze and wonder about the current scenario my exN is in. If I didn't still wonder, I wouldn't need to be here.
Jul 6 - 11AM (Reply to #16)
SoaperGirl
SoaperGirl's picture

how badly they want something should determine motivation

From what I know of the "relationship" from a distance, the Narc has previously publically announced that she told him she trusts him and has faith in him! He even smuggly bragged he was in control of the situation and HER! Indeed, the following is from her own Match.com profile and are her own words: "I look for the good in all people and try to learn something new each day. I am a patient and trusting person and very loyal to friends." From a photo he published of her after having spent 2-3 weeks in this woman's company 24/7, she looked pretty buzzed and out of it, like she was a drug high. Scenario #1 seems more likely. In fact, I'd go so far as to say, she's likely even more gullbile and trusting than I was. My narc was smooth alright, and knows what to say to get women to commit and trust him quickly. Three weeks after supposedly meeting in person for first time, she agreed to let him quickly move into her home! I think she was so alone and lonely for so long, she made a perfect target for him! Ours as an LDR, and with my illness, and having to reach early retirement age first, our relationship got dragged out I think, far longer than he anticipated. So, he went after more available and lucrative pickings. He showed his real self every 2-3 months on average (briefly!)..but I didn't have my guard up regretfully (likely I'd have to say she didn't either!), and we both missed all the red flags. The guy likes to move bullet-train fast with women! Oh yeah, he lavishes his attention at the beginning, with intense "emotion", gifts etc. to give the appearance the relationship is deep and intense quickly. Indicative of a pathological with a hidden agenda! Is he that "into" her? According to Sandra Brown (Women Who Love Psychopaths), Nope! He's most likely wanting to get into her checkbook and other properties. See: http://saferelationshipsmagazine.com/the-successful-pathologicals-evil-twin-the-parasite (fantastic article!). There are Red flags allover the place! Not the least of which was his wanting to move in quickly and sweeping her off her feet at high-speed as Sandra say predators have told her in group! She trusts him completely I'm sure, so I expect, he may even already be on her bank accounts. He has to move fast because time is against him. He's getting older and uglier looking every day! http://cheaterville.com/?page=cheaters&id=3184
Jul 5 - 11PM
Journey
Journey's picture

I don't think it is possible

I don't think it is possible that the mask would never come off, regardless of everything the OW could do for him. Thing is, narcs and psychos get bored. Even when they get what they want, that is often not good enough to stop the boredom from entering the picture. The boredom causes the mask to slip in order to create excitement and drama. Even the best adoring supply loses its appeal eventually because they can't remain content the way normal people can. They don't have the emotional capacity to be happy with a peaceful and loving interaction, nor do they continue to have the motivation to keep the mask in place (which is hard for them to do long term), when they get what they were wanting to achieve or conquest. I think it is pretty safe to say that for no one would the mask remain on. Ever.

Journey on...

Jul 6 - 2PM (Reply to #12)
Gullable1
Gullable1's picture

Masked drama

The creation of drama and excitement... Wow. That struck a chord of truth. I found myself actually looking for, or dare I say creating some type of drama to entertain my narc. I'm sickened by what I have allowed. I can't stop saying that enough. I have so much remorse itns consuming. Yet.. A little narc fix could ease the pain.... This is the destructive cycle
Jul 6 - 12PM (Reply to #9)
strivingforhealing (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

when you said this, it really resonated with me:

Even the best adoring supply loses its appeal eventually because they can't remain content the way normal people can. I think I was the most adored, the most special to him. and my little girl lapped this up. even with all his women that came and went- i had the most draw, I had the most edge to him. but still- 5 weeks ago, I sensed one day a subtle shift- his beginning to pull away and there had already been enough of passive abuse that I quickly ended it in a very short email. now I think he may have gone back with his ex ( before me) who is younger and very very affected by him. she would be an easy target and immediately feed him. but am I also right- that he would grow quickly bored of her because she is so into him? but another question- she too- could become the "next me"- if she goes through the transformation I did these last 8 years of off and on hell- where i got a much stronger sense of self worth ( hence that is why i continued to be very enticing for him). she might go this path too, AND then become more interesting to her , right? He said such demeaning things about her in the past- that he never was attracted to her, that the whole relationship was a mistake, that she hated sleeping with her....was this true? the one thing I hold onto ( or my ego does) - is that he and I voiced how incredible our sex connection always has been, like a karmic chemistry. so my sad little ego feels like we had something very special in that regard that no other women can touch with him. but if he is able to demean her so much, who knows what he says about me? I do know he told HER that OUR sex was "very healing" for him. what an asshole to hurt her like that. but then , here comes my ego- feeling good about my "specialness" yes, all this is obsession. unfortunately. I can't believe I am here again.. ... I am also going to post this as a new thread because I need more feedback. i am having a terribly hard few days of complete hopelessness