What if the Mask Doesn't Come Off with the OW?

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#1 Jul 5 - 5PM
tresor2
tresor2's picture

What if the Mask Doesn't Come Off with the OW?

One of the pieces of info about N's that has helped my recovery is the assertion that they don't change. They supposidly treat all their partners the same way, at some level. I think the big difference is in the length of the honeymoon stage which is determined by many factors. If sex is the prime motivator, the good times may be shorter than if we're targeted for money or business connections. It all depends on what the N needs at the time. He may want help with his business and if he likes you enough, you'll be targeted for the honor of being his live-in helper and sex slave.

That brings me to my point. I've read so many posts where women talk about the happiness he finds with the OW. It's really hard to deal with the OW thing. So what would it mean if he does, in fact, manage to keep the mask on for good with the OW. Maybe he found the right motivator to treat someone well. What if he truly finds what he wants in someone else? What if his fake positive image dominates and becomes stable. This is what I've come up with:

My unhealthy self would conclude that this happened because:
1. I'm not good enough
2. I'm ugly
3. I'm not rich enough
4. My family doesn't have connections
5. I'm too old
6. I said the wrong things; I called him a N
7. I wasn't subsurvient enough
8. I called him on his sh*t
9. My breasts are too small and my nose isn't right
10.I should have my doctorate degree
11.I was too needy

My healthy self concludes:
1. I don't give a F*ck. I'm OK the way I am. Yes, it hurts but, I'll survive.

Jul 8 - 10PM
deecbee
deecbee's picture

Oops, my post below was in

Oops, my post below was in response to Journey. Typing this from my phone so it's a little tricky. But can I just say THANK YOU to everyone who contributed to this topic!! I was laying here in bed crying my eyes out, feeling sorry for myself and imagining him and the OW out on a date, skipping down the sidewalk in fairy la-la land. Reading this gave me some much needed reminders, a few chuckles, and the realization that they probably are NOT laughing and skipping right now. She's probably nagging him at this second and he's probably ready to explode on her and storm out on their date as he has said he's done before. I do NOT want to be in her shoes, none of us do!
Jul 9 - 2AM (Reply to #69)
Journey
Journey's picture

Hi deecbee, yes we really do

Hi deecbee, yes we really do NOT want to be in her shoes... been there, done that and it is only fun until someone gets hurt - and we know it will be HER.

Journey on...

Jul 8 - 10PM
deecbee
deecbee's picture

I agree with everything you

I agree with everything you just said. Mine even after the d&d still had little ways of devaluing (this was when we were attempting being just "friends"). His favorite was abruptly going silent during a text conversation. We'd be in the middle of some fairly significant discourse and he'd go abruptly silent. No 'be right back' or warning whatsoever. Just... silence. Mine is also getting older, just turned 34 and with each failing relationship he acknowledges more and more that he can't maintain a relationship. He's even begun to acknowledge that it's all his fault. But narcs do not change, even if they know what they are and how they treat others. They don't know how. It will never happen. I do agree that they want to fall in love - but only because it's the one thing they haven't yet been able to conquer. Everything, as you said, is about the chase and control. True intimacy is the one thing they haven't figured out.
Jul 8 - 10AM
Nemesis
Nemesis's picture

It will!

Here is a quote from an article I read on the subject: "A Narcissist's charming behaviour lasts as long as they get what they want from you i.e. that you provide evidence to confirm their view of themselves as special. In any relationship where people spend a lot of time together it is normal for the parties involved to notice the others bad habits and behaviours. To some degree it is normal behaviour for people to point these bad habits and behaviours out to the other person in order to try and improve the relationship. Narcissists do not react kindly to this, they see it as an attack on their perfection. As a result of this their behaviour starts to change. The lovely person you know will start to disappear as the damaged part of them emerges, the things they do to impress you will become fewer and farther between, you will start to feel less and less special to them as they start to treat you badly and show their frustrations (overtly or covertly) at your inability to meet their needs more frequently. This is known as your "Devaluation"." The main point to remember is that it is all an act. They don't have the energy or the motivation to keep up the act forever. Not with ANYONE. If you want to read the rest of the article you can find it here: http://www.echo.me.uk/npd1.htm Also, Lisa has written a brilliant article on the subject: http://www.lisaescott.com/2011/03/17/why-narcissist-inevitably-devalues-discards-dd-you
Jul 7 - 3AM
fooled no longer
fooled no longer's picture

THEN IT WILL COME OFF IN

THEN IT WILL COME OFF IN DEATH>>>
Jul 7 - 3AM
TraumaMamma
TraumaMamma's picture

Not unless they super glue it on, honey.

Go read my story, darling, under my profile. I need to add more. However, stuff filters back to me, from the children that all is not well in paradise. They are what they are. You may not see it and the OW sure the hell ain't gonna admit it happens. It took me 10 yrs to finally find out, actually. But she is getting hers. ;) Just know this. It wasn't YOU. xoxoxo :)

Courage doesn't always roar. Sometimes courage is the quiet voice at the end of the day saying, "I will try again tomorrow.' --Mary Anne Radmache

Jul 6 - 11PM
enpsychopedia r... (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

When you think about it, our

When you think about it, our perception of this mythical other woman is a form of idealizing them, ourselves. They are human with all of the same insecurities that we have. Difference is, we are getting past the ones he triggered, they are just starting. Lucky them!
Jul 6 - 11PM (Reply to #63)
tresor2
tresor2's picture

Idealizing the OW

Yes, good point. For a while, the OW simply has what we want; the N. That thought brings up all kinds of self-destructive rationalizations and beliefs. The OW are human and are no more or no less special than we are. It's so easy to loose sight of the fact that the N will lay down with anyone, as long as they have what he wants at the time. They don't care if the person is old/young/ugly/pretty/rich/poor/educated/drop out, etc...it's only about what they need and want at the time. Instant gratification.
Jul 6 - 10PM
Gullable1
Gullable1's picture

Who cares

Didnt mean to offend, were all looking for answers. Gd knows I am right up there with the questions. How and why? Im trying not to get wrapped up in what my narc is up too, or who? Othersiwe im so consumed on what Everer break free. Just a defense mechanism for me... If I say I don't care, I can start to believe it, if I believe I may stand a fighting change of not ending up flat under another narc. Or.... The same one. I mean no harm, no offense. Ow? (I've endured 6 and still stayed) I used to make myself sick? Wondering, begging for details, so caught up In some other woman. My narc fed on my pain, and used my insecurities to put me in a competition role. If i won him back? By being, "better". He won. For me? Now... I have to adopt a "who cares" mentality.
Jul 7 - 6PM (Reply to #60)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Gullable

Pat yourself on the back! Its the I don't care attutude we have to have. Offended? Who? The facts are the facts and they're out there. You hit a home run with this... Hugs!
Jul 7 - 6PM (Reply to #61)
Gullable1
Gullable1's picture

Michelle115

Thanks for the kind words! My narc is the dangerous type, most agitated when he has d&d, as I always "left him with no choice". Usually, the cycle: anger, d&d, one night stand, or some horrid vindictive act. I feel beaten and afraid, I make things better so he doesn't have to behave so poorly. As I have stated before, in my story, mine gets together with an ex employee and sends out intimate details of our relationship, my neglect to help him financially, his loneliness, anything dirty. This usually goes out to my business contacts, it's cost me a career. :( So..... I'll take option a) get an ow, one night stand, mail order bride, do what ever to keep from brooding and contemplating ways to destroy me, a busy narc, is a safe narc. I can't go back, I just can't. Although I may simply send a check... May help procurer a mail order bride? I hear they can be spendy! Day 2 narc sober..... And counting!
Jul 6 - 6PM
Journey
Journey's picture

Another reason why EVERYONE eventually sees behind the mask

Another way to think of it, is if your experience was anything like mine (or what seems typical with narc behavior), is that after any amount of time feeling particularly good about the relationship and close to them, they always need to do something to push us away and become withholding, withdrawn or pick a fight. Ultimately, intimacy and the loss of power and emotional control that represents terrifies them (and from what I've heard about disorders, always will - regardless of who they are with). So NO ONE could be enough for him to keep the nice guy mask on forever. In my case, this pattern of ruining the peace and love between us was something I noticed way before I discovered about NPD. My ex and I truly had a strong compatibility in regards to what we could accomplish by being together and what we had the potential of realizing. We had all the right ingredients between us for a very happy, successful life together. A normal would have been thrilled we found each other, but HE could not let that happen. HE could not keep the mask on for any great length of it to let that happen. I think he really wanted to be able to with me. I think he really tried for awhile after moving in - he seemed tormented by his inability to do so during the final d&d just months later. Only someone else who is as shallow as he is could ever possibly see him keep the mask on most or all the time. Any requirement anyone has of deeper intimacy or emotional honesty will shatter his hold on the mask every time, probably sooner than later the older he gets. I prefer to think now that if by chance he does ever find someone where it seems he will stay with and be happy forever, then thank goodness they have each other, keeping TWO disordered people away from continuing to hurt us normals. Journey on...

Journey on...

Jul 6 - 8PM (Reply to #51)
Erali
Erali's picture

Journey

That sounds exactly like my relationship. We would have this totally amazing time for a couple of weeks, then one evening have a particularly incredible night, then like clockwork he would back off big time. He used to tell me I didn't know when to push and when to pull, but with him, it really made no difference. I also agree with you that I believe they actually WANT to fall in love, they just have no clue about what it is. It's the only benefit of the doubt I will allow them (that they want to - and maybe this is my own delusion). The rest is just a big pile of crap and abuse. Control is the only thing they're after, when it comes to their actions. He was 42 when I met him, I was 25, if he is still doing this at that age, he won't change, and another woman will not bring out the best in him. He will continue to do the same thing. I heard only one story about him and the new woman he was dating and it sounded exactly the same. Apparently he had been at her house, she fell asleep and woke up to find him not there. She called to find out where he was (the bar) and hadn't expected him to leave unannounced. Sounds like something that could be benign, but as we all know here, in this situation is was totally calculated and the goal was devalue.
Jul 6 - 8PM (Reply to #52)
Journey
Journey's picture

Oh yes Erali, it is a common

Oh yes Erali, it is a common tactic of control for them to pull these stunts. Mine left in the middle of the night while I was sleeping to 'punish' me because for one of the first times I told him off. He was blatantly being a jerk and accusing me of things - when I corrected him and gave HIM the silent treatment by going to bed, he vanished. THAT is what they do. Mine used to say I didn't know when to push and when to pull too! Not in those exact words, but he always implied that his withdrawal was my fault for wanting too much. Argh! All I wanted was to maintain status quo or what I thought was status quo. He would say these things as if to suggest I should try to manipulate him into doing what i wanted, which is simply not what I do (but obviously what he does). Thing is, even if I tried to do that I would have been treated worse because he would then accused me of trying to manipulate him. There is no winning with a narc - for no one, really. Mine is old enough now to know he is incapable of maintaining a healthy relationship. One of the things he said close to the end when he was possibly still trying was "if I can't make it work with you, I won't be able to make it work with anyone". He was sad when he said it and I think he knew it was probably true. I was the best partner for him in so many ways, and yet it still wasn't enough. I blame myself NO MORE for that misconception that I somehow wasn't enough for him, when in truth he could not be enough for me. In a moment of clarity while breaking up with me he actually said that, but I was so distraught I didn't understand what he meant because he was more than enough for me in my eyes and my love for him would have lasted forever if he could have let it in instead of running away from it.

Journey on...

Jul 7 - 6PM (Reply to #58)
onwithmylife
onwithmylife's picture

JOURNEY

What you said is so true, whenever things went well with us, off he went to the wild blue yonder and then he finally left for good, even said he was running away, this from a man in his 60's!they cannot love or tolerate intimacy ,even if deep down that is exactly what they so desperately want.i felt like you did, the man had 4 women longterm before me and I too feel we connected the best in so many ways, but it was never enough for the man, whatever I did or all the love I gave the man, it was never enough, so sad even now for me, after over 2 years out.he use to say to me,' you want more than i can give you, You are never satisfied with what I give you'. He has not a clue as to how a real relationship works and the give and take that is required of two people.
Jul 6 - 9PM (Reply to #57)
Erali
Erali's picture

It's truly unfortunate.

It's truly unfortunate. Sounds like yours and mine had some similarities. Mine once said to me "Maybe you have the key." There were some truths in there, when he seemed genuinely sad, but then would just revert. I'm not sure where he'll end up, with someone or not, aside from the fact that it won't be with me! Just reading what you wrote here made my head spin. They're really unbelievable. I'm glad that you're not blaming yourself anymore, I've reached that point too and it's liberating!
Jul 6 - 9PM (Reply to #53)
Gullable1
Gullable1's picture

Crazy control

Ah ha! A control tactic. Makes so much sense..? I would see my narc on the weekends, he would reward me with coolish behaviour, if was punishment for not living together. The apt would be filthy, almost uninhabitable. He would dare me to say something, so he could let me know what a horrible partner I was for making him live in deplorable conditions, if we lived together, in a home (purchased by me) he would be perfect, obviously I didn't care enough about his well being to change. Therefore, the house being dirty was my fault. Of course there would be no sex on such mood swings,. No matter how i would beg. ( eeew i begged?) later in the week, I would get an email saying he was going to be forced to seek outside attention due to lack of sex. It was all control, designed to break me down damn it worked. Yes, this is a man in his 50's. There will never be a healthy turn over, no therapy, no change. This is it. Sad, who punishes another adult? Geez
Jul 6 - 9PM (Reply to #54)
Erali
Erali's picture

Sex is one of their favourite

Sex is one of their favourite tools of their trade (in which you trade your sanity for what exactly?). In his 50s? Definitely will not change!
Jul 6 - 10PM (Reply to #55)
Gullable1
Gullable1's picture

Manipulative sex

Never knew that either? Was the oddest thing I eveer encountered. I've never had a man tell me in the throws of passion.... "sorry, I'm just not that attracted to you, but I love you so much"
Jul 7 - 2PM (Reply to #56)
trying2heal
trying2heal's picture

Gullable

It's soooo sick isn't it? Mine always sabatoged, pulled away and accused me of crap he was guilty of...especially after sex and things were good. But these mixed messages of contradiction... unreal!! mine would sing to me on the phone after drinking to the tune of "to all the girls i loved before"...he changed the words to "to all the girls I shtupted before"...I got upset, asked him to stop and then said okay, I am getting off the phone now and hung up. Next day I received a text message. "SORRY YOU HUNG UP ON ME AFTER MY JOKE. IT'S BEST IF WE DON'T SEE EACH OTHER ANYMORE XOXOXO" WHO SAYS CRAP LIKE THAT? it is twisted love and hate in same message.
Jul 6 - 7PM (Reply to #28)
SoaperGirl
SoaperGirl's picture

My Narc Was With His Wife 35 Years Until Her Death

One thing puzzles me, is how he was able to stay with his wife until her death for 35 years. How could any woman be so subservient and put up with so much crap? Other people noted to me that prior to her death, he was very abusive to the poor woman...you know she's laying in bed, lungs filling up with fluid, being eaten up by lung cancer, and the bastard sits in the living room watching TV, until she's nearly dead, then comes in to the bedroom so she can "die in his arms!" Then he calls the paramedics for her to be taken away. He milked her death for all it was worth! I'm sure that pretty much sums up their marriage...him the king of the castle, and her being the slave/servant to his every need. How can a woman live that way? What kind of marriage is that? Please, can someone tell me why a woman would put up with that kind of shit of constant abuise? She must have had it pretty rough. I think he is a passive-aggressive, cerebral narc who prefers auto eroticism (masturbation). She chose not to have kids with him, but I can't help thinking how much she musdt have suffered!
Jul 6 - 8PM (Reply to #50)
tresor2
tresor2's picture

So Sad

Irreversible trauma bonding. She lost her soul behind the N's abuse. She lost her power and was reduced to nothing is my guess...that's why she couldn't or wouldn't leave leave the MF. Also, some partners are unwilling to leave the upper class lifestyle. Losing themselves is worth a life of privilage. It's all so sad and could happen to anyone caught in the web of N abuse. He's probably got a big life insurance policy on her.
Jul 6 - 7PM (Reply to #41)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

AND this was the nightmare I feared

And I hope you thank God you escaped it because it would have been your reality too had you "stuck it out" Hugs!
Jul 7 - 8PM (Reply to #46)
SoaperGirl
SoaperGirl's picture

Thanks Michelle - Why can't I kill off that small part of me

find myself yearning for him? I know by everything right and good, intellectually, I am far better off without him. While I DO NOT want him back, yet there is this small part of me, deep in the corners of my mind that whimpers, but I still love him! The strong part of me wants beat the snot out of that part in the corners of my mind! I feel so angry and disgusted with myself for having that kind of weakness. Most of the time, I don't and won't even acknowledge it to myself that I still wish I had him. Yet even knowing what a sick, rotten bastard he is I still want him! I am still a little bit jealous of the OW because she has him, and I don't! Crap! I hate that! I know he is mostly with this woman because he's running a scam on her...he's essentially broke, deep in debt, and needs money big time...she has it $$$. I know he doesn't love her (we know a narc can't love anybody!)...it is after all about him and what she can do for him! Why can't I kill off that small part of me that still yearns for him? Yuck! I just hate feeling this way!
Jul 7 - 8PM (Reply to #47)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Soaper

You really ought to OWN the words that come from your mouth because without identifying you I used one of YOUR pearls of wisdom today on FB... I will post it...maybe this will be that final nudge for you... Last night a member on the Path Forward Forum shared the following: "One thing puzzles me, is how he was able to stay with his wife until her death for 35 years. How could any woman be so subservient and put up with so much crap? Other people noted to me that prior to her death, he was very abusive to the poor woman...you know she's laying in bed, lungs filling up with fluid, being eaten up by lung cancer, and the bastard sits in the living room watching TV, until she's nearly dead, then comes in to the bedroom so she can "die in his arms!" Then he calls the paramedics for her to be taken away. He milked her death for all it was worth! I'm sure that pretty much sums up their marriage...him the king of the castle, and her being the slave/servant to his every need. How can a woman live that way? What kind of marriage is that? Please, can someone tell me why a woman would put up with that kind of shit of constant abuise? She must have had it pretty rough. I think he is a passive-aggressive, cerebral narc who prefers auto eroticism (masturbation). She chose not to have kids with him, but I can't help thinking how much she musdt have suffered!" And it's been in my mind since then. I suffer from CFS and Fibromyalgia and there was always some kind of resentment behind my inability at times to "serve" the Narc. There was never any real compassion, if I was in a flare more than 48 hours I could feel the resentment that would permeate the air and cut like a knife and I held that thought because I said to myself - this is someone who would leave me high and dry if the 'ish' ever really hit the fan. When we are involved with someone on an intmate level...to a certain degree, one day it will come down to a life or death situation, we get old, we get sick, we face death. The Narc, is the type of person, that if you were critically ill for any period of time, if the doctors needed a decision on whether or not to pull the plug, if that phone call from the doctor was made to the narc on the cusp of a booty call - from the phone the narc would tell the doctor pull the plug and the narc would go on ahead and get laid. It doesn't matter that you might have a chance to live, if your life or the possibility of losing it intereferes with his plans, you are shit out of luck. This is the reality, I've seen it, and I've lived it...there is nothing to miss with these people. I have also seen a woman who stayed with with a narc for over forty years. This woman had breast cancer and against doctors orders immediately had reconstructive surgery because her narc told her: "Don't come home without tits." This is what they are. Please own it...they are the shit under your shoes. Hugs! Hugs!
Jul 7 - 9PM (Reply to #49)
enpsychopedia r... (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

cfs fibromyalgia

I've got CFS and fibro too. thirty year veteran. I am so happy that the narc erased me from his life while we were making marriage plans. I can't imagine what kind of fate awaited me if hadn't deleted me. Blessing in disguise. My husband, even with his faults, is a MAN. Always there for me. I would have traded my strongest source of support for shit under my shoes...unfathomable!
Jul 7 - 8PM (Reply to #48)
SoaperGirl
SoaperGirl's picture

Please own it...they are the shit under your shoes.

I think I do own it Michele. I know you are right. In fact, the only reason I requested reconstruction after my mastectomy was because the narc was so hysterically upset at the prospect of me losing a breast in order to save my life. Makes me think he would have preferred I die of cancer before losing a breast. I will say, now I'm glad did have the reconstruction. I did not realize how a powerful factor as having breasts on a woman's identity with her feminity before I lost a breast. First I went through an unexpected period of fatigue and depression following the mastectomy those first few weeks. I no longer felt like a desirable woman; the narc's ardor cooled off considerably. Every 2-3 weeks, I"d trot into my plastic surgeon's office, and they'd put more saline in my tissue expanders. Oh, I'd say, about 6-8 weeks after the mastectomy...there was this one period, I'd just more saline injected...and suddenly, I felt different! I felt like I had two breasts again, and I felt so womanly! It stunned, shocked aqnd surprised me. It was an amazing feeling! I was practically skipping with joy and doing cartwheels when I left the hospital. Suddenly, I felt womanly and alive again! You are correct in your statements, these guys are so shallow, incapable of having any empathy for the suffering of others. Mostly, I am glad the narc is gone, I just have a few weak moments every now and then. In truth, I would not want to be relegated to that of an object/servant to a narc. You can bet sooner or later the OW will need some kind of support from the narc...AND HE WON'T HAVE IT TO GIVE! I would not want to be in her shoes. I'm afraid she won't be strong enough to withstand his resulting rejection. You are right Michele - they are shit under our shoes and so not worth our love, care and concern. P.S. I am so sorry to hear about your health conditions. I can't imagine what you are going through, but from what I've heard other people with your conditions, I know it must be pretty rough for you. I'm truly sorry. I wish I could help.
Jul 6 - 10PM (Reply to #42)
tresor2
tresor2's picture

Escape

My ex N was married twice; once for 14 yrs. and a second time for 20 yrs. Both wives left him. When I first met him, I asked him why the wife left and he said, "she said she lost herself." At the time, I didn't understand and I thought the woman was crazy for leaving such a "prize." Now I totally get it because I too lost myself in the N. I wonder about the longevity of the two marriages. I think the kids had something to do with it and also, living the upper class lifestyle is hard to give up, for some.
Jul 7 - 8PM (Reply to #43)
Gullable1
Gullable1's picture

Narcs n $

Narcs confuse love and money, they are interchange nouns. No matter how much " love" I gave my narc, he always wanted more... Had he access to my bank account? I'd be homeless I can see your analogy of getting lost, that's an accurate description.
Jul 7 - 8PM (Reply to #44)
Susan32
Susan32's picture

"Empty selflessness"

The ex-Psych prof would compare me to the poor orphan Sonya in "War and Peace." Her childhood sweetheart, Nicholas Rostov, dumps her for Princess Maria... because Maria is an heiress&she helps him with his debts. Leo Tolstoy demeans Sonya for her "empty selflessness" because she had only love&devotion to give... not $$$. The ex-P would demean me for my "empty selflessness." I ended up being D&D'd for a curator, who definitely made more $$$ than him&helped him buy a house. The ex-P and I ALWAYS argued about money. I NEVER gave him access to my bank accounts. He got angry at me for volunteering... because I wasn't getting paid. He didn't see the value of me teaching kids at the elementary school. He thought it was awesome that Leo Tolstoy spent his final days fighting over $$ with his wife;he loved recounting how his alma mater, Clark University, was founded on account of a money battle. He'd say "Your parents are paying me to be your friend" because of the tuition. Ns tend to confuse love with $$$. All the girlfriend had to do to get the coveted wedding ring to the ex-P was to financially support him&have his babies.