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Why can't i stop? is it me?
star17
Member since:
1 year 21 weeks
1 year 21 weeks
Last activity:
43 weeks 5 days
43 weeks 5 days
Why can't i stop? is it me?
Posted May 17, 2012 - 8:33pm
i keep thinking it's me...something sick inside of me that makes me keep begging to be heard...only to be torn down and called names and blocked like some piece of crap. Why can't i just let it go? he is happy with a new girl and i am in misery still begging for scraps of attention which usually are mean and hateful things being said to me. maybe i am the one sick and not him : (
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We are not certified mental health professionals and this site and message board is in no way a replacement for professional therapy, legal or medical advice.
Maybe this is why
May 19, 2012 - 3:33pm — TruthbeginsTodayMaybe you are kind and good hearted and understanding and reasonable AND you think others are like you, think like YOU DO. and maybe you KNOW....you FEEL it in your HEART that you are right and HE SHOULD understand and maybe it's just too hard and painful for you to grasp that he is NOT LIKE YOU?
MAYBE...it's ok..... this sick reality of HIM and others like him is very hard for people with understanding hearts.
From mine to yours .....hold on
your words hit home...your
May 19, 2012 - 3:53pm — star17your words hit home...your exactly right. i would never hurt someone nor would i purposely antagonize someone i knew was hurting. It just blows my mind how mean and cruel they can be when they are the ones who did the destroying...no remorse no empathy nothing...just a sucks to be you attitude. it just hurts.
You are on a site
May 19, 2012 - 11:21am — neverlookbackthat is called ALL ABOUT HIM - no matter how confused you are at this stage it was NEVER your fault it was always his fault - the utter pain and destruction these psychopaths cause was always ABOUT HIM and how disturbed they are - I found those scraps I was begging for were only scraps of wanting to know I meant something to a person dressed in skin to hide the fact he wasnt really human - when you can understand this you will come to a place of great peace. Nobody means anything to a psychopath we are just bodies they can rape or kill or use or beat - In the end you will know you fell victim to a psychopath, what he is doing now and what he will do in the future will make no difference to you - there will be no emotions of jealousy on your part of lack of understanding why he JUST MOVED ON - he has the emotional inner compass of a clock that just keeps ticking and ticking and ticking - but in the end their time always runs out -
awesome post
May 19, 2012 - 1:37pm — BritNever look back, you have just described to me exactly what stage I am at. It's very early for me, a very new concept but I'm on this path this way now.
Thank you because it's all so new and confusing still to me, but my inner self has understood what you have described here.
Brit x
Brit
May 19, 2012 - 2:16pm — neverlookbackIts very painful and confusing in the early stages - but if I may pass along something you should always keep in the front when you are processing it all - THEY ARE NOT HUMAN - dont listen to love songs on the radio and miss the GOOD TIMES, because there are really no good times with them, that TOO was just an act he used - they enjoyed us for awhile and what they were missing they found in us but you were NEVER loved not for one second (if he was a true psychopath) dont confuse his beautiful smile, his sexual performance, his charming words, or whatever he had that you were drawn to, DO NOT confuse this as a display of love, - he was simply being someone he knew you wanted him to be in order for him to use what he needed you for - that is all it was - I was a useful idiot and enabler to him that is all I was - while he is reciting to himself - oh ok, I have to pretend I love her to keep her around to get what I need - I can just imagine what an idiot he made of me and how many times he laughed and said to himself STUPID BITCH - YES, this is how sick they are - so you remember that as you are pining for him - NO REMORSE, DEAD inside, NOTHING THERE - you deserve a man that is not the lowest form of human existence that walks the earth - kill him off, he was dead from the day you met him !!! x0x0
This helped to read because
May 19, 2012 - 3:26pm — star17This helped to read because right now he has been with OW for almost 8 months and i swear he is doing all the things with her i dreamed of and it is killing me...literally. Why am i envious of her? Why do i miss being with him and wish i could be doing those things? She is a school teacher and he needs a babysitter for his kids in the summer and she is already planning the summer taking care of them...it just kills me because part of me wants to believe he is using her for that but then i think of the hurt he is causing me so he can use someonelse and that feels HORRIBLE...i wish i could get shock therapy and just erase him from my mind and heart.
I hear you neverlookback
May 19, 2012 - 2:59pm — BritYes, thank you, everything you are saying is ringing loud and clear with me. You are clarifying everything I am beginning to know. I often thought he was dead inside, but couldn't quite believe it to be true. How can you look normal and yet be so abnormal?
I can't even remember what it was about him that had me so 'in love' with him. I am beginning to think that I just had an addiction to the little scraps he threw my way now and again. Well to put it bluntly he can shove it where the sun don't shine. Lol !
I am beginning to find an inner peace and it's awesome. I hope it lasts.
Thank you so much for your encouragement. I hear you as the voice of experience. So often people mean well, but you have to have gone through it to truly understand, and even though they are trying to help, they cant. You have truly helped clarify. A million squillion hugs to you ! You are absolutely right.
Brit x
double response
May 19, 2012 - 5:40pm — neverlookbacksorry for the double post
glad I was able to make you feel a little better -
May 19, 2012 - 5:36pm — neverlookbackI wish I could comment to everyone and encourage them - if I see someone just struggling with this horrible pain inside I want to give them that added extra reminder that these individuals are just not human - It really bothers me that the victims blame themselves but its part of the healing process until they finally get just how disordered a messed up these people are - Dont kid yourself I still struggle with coming to terms that I fell victim to this and how much it tore my life apart but him directly I have not shed one tear over for probably close to 6 months - I do not miss him, I do not crave one single thing about this utterly filthy disgusting low life man NOTHING, in fact I now look back and am shocked at what an illusion I was sold on - I am SMARTER than that - well at least now I am - they can do a pretty good job at pretending they are just like the rest of us - but eventually their disorder gives them away. I know without a doubt that I have conquered this because here I am still in a marriage that is not very good (trying to work on it) and he can throw that sick illusion at me with all the promises in the world of how much better my life would be, how wonderful I am, how beautiful I am, he can give me a grand sexual performance, and he can still go STRAIGHT TO HELL - because I dont want any of it - I learned the hard way that I dont need anyone to do those things for me - especially someone who is a psychopath - you get through this by discovering what it was you thought was missing in your life that he gave you - and that you were addicted to - you replace the pathological addiction with reality and learning it was yourself that always had the power to make you complete and whole - There is no feeling like it in the world TOTAL PEACE!!!!
x0x0
My favorite quote right now...
May 18, 2012 - 2:56pm — FindingMyselfWhen someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time. – Maya Angelou
Wow... this is EXACTLY how I
May 18, 2012 - 2:43pm — FindingMyselfWow... this is EXACTLY how I feel... every word. I know how you feel. I'm doing the same thing.
Thank you all for the
May 18, 2012 - 12:52pm — star17Thank you all for the encouragement and for sharing your struggles with me...he helps to not feel alone in all this. I wish we all didn't have this issue in common because it hurts like hell. I didn't sleep went to work and called him asking him to un-block my # and he said no that i pushed him to do this and i abused it so now i had to deal with the consequences...made me feel worse...hopefully now i can see that their is nothing i can do and just let go.
Please star, please
May 18, 2012 - 1:00pm — spinningjust let it go.
If you continue to pursue him like this it could impact your life in a most negative way; even more negatively than it has right now.
He does not wish to interact with you and interacting with him will not make you feel any better. It will continue to make you feel what you state above...worse. DON'T GIVE HIM THAT OPPORTUNITY TO MAKE YOU FEEL BAD!
He cannot give you what you seek. We can help you find where to look, star. Trust that! Please.
Sincerely,
(not) spinning. IT WAS A CHOICE AND AN EFFORT TO STOP, BUT WORTH EVERY INCH OF IT!
See that's where i get
May 18, 2012 - 1:06pm — star17See that's where i get lost...he blocked me because i told him too and then told me it was basically my punishment for abusing it...all i did was try to be honest and he tore me to shreds which started a war between us...now i am left feeling awful wondering how i can make it right...but i can't...i hate this feeling so much...it is a beautiful day here and all i want to do is curl up and sleep it away :(
Please, you have to let go of
May 19, 2012 - 10:51am — JourneyPlease, you have to let go of the thought that anything you could do or say would make it right.
There is no making it right with a PD. Try to stop thinking in those terms and instead accept this truth. Cry, curl up and sleep the day away if you have to - but allow yourself to accept it.
THAT is what will settle the restlessness and torment you are putting yourself through. Change your mind and your heart will follow... xo
Hi, It's beautiful sunny
May 18, 2012 - 3:26pm — beautifulmessHi,
It's beautiful sunny spring day here in new england! I too want to curl up in bed as well, and that's just what I plan on doing. I am emotionally drained. It's only 4 pm here but so far so good.. NC! After almost 4 months of struggling financially bec he left me in complete debt where I was two days from having my electricity shut off, I got phone call today.. Money is on it's way and I feel a huge burden lifted. I ALMOST want to text him to throw it in his face that I am financially great right now.. Just because he loved to control me with money, loved it that I was struggling just to put gas in my car to get to work. I just want to throw it in his nasty face that I have money .. That no longer am I struggling..I am not going to but ohh how I want to because I think he is broke.
"throw it in his face"
May 18, 2012 - 3:41pm — lessonlearneddon't bother trying to one-up him, it won't work. he doesn't care if you're broke or you just won the powerball, all he cares about is that you were thinking about him enough to text or call. SUPPLY.
you know who's happy that you have $$$ coming & he's broke? ME! i am really happy that you are going to climb out of the financial hole that he left you in :)
as tempting as it is to think that we might have the last word, might make him feel even a tiny tinge of the pain that the N put us through over & over again, it won't happen. so let it go. work on yourself. this is why people say that "living well is the best revenge," because the only person you are able to control is yourself & your reactions.
don't crumble & contact him thinking that it will bring you anything other than pain & regret, because it won't. be done with him. begin with yourself.
((hugs))
You are of course right! But
May 18, 2012 - 4:19pm — beautifulmessYou are of course right! But the little fantasy of him stewing because I am no longer stuck in financial ruin makes me feel better. I am not contacting him! There were many times he accused me of being with him for his money.. Which is ridiculous since he is not wealthy.. Doesn't even work.. Collects VA benefits. Probably because even HE can't figure out why I stuck around when he treated me so shabbily!
Learn to love a different way....
May 18, 2012 - 9:03am — MonarchSam V. wrote the following:
"Why is it that the partner (us) seeks to prolong her pain? What is the source and purpose of this masochistic streak? Upon the break-up of the relationship, the partner (and the sociopathic narcissist) engage in a tortuous and drawn out post mortem. But the question who really did what to whom (and even why) is irrelevant. What is relevant is to stop mourning oneself (this is what the parties are really mourning), start smiling again and love in a less subservient, hopeless, and pain-inflicting manner."
My childhood conditioned me
May 17, 2012 - 10:08pm — Deidre99My childhood conditioned me to think love meant having to earn it. If you experienced that too...you are not sick. You were conditioned.
I too have grown up as a
May 18, 2012 - 9:29am — eyeswideopen35I too have grown up as a result of my childhood feeling like I had to earn love, that if it was easy then I thought it was not love... If it was full of ups and downs, highs and lows,push and pulls, then that to me represented love. I always said being with my NH felt like "home" I now realize just how messed up that feeling was!
: ) Thanks again,
May 18, 2012 - 9:01am — Monarch: ) Thanks again, DeidreAngel. Gotta keep reminding myself of this...glad you can do that for me when I forget.
All that 'conditioning' takes
May 18, 2012 - 9:09am — Deidre99All that 'conditioning' takes time to 'undo.' :)
It can be so different for all of us, but for us, Monarch...our childhoods are really at the root for us, as to why we gravitate towards narcs. I say it in a present tense, for I think this will be a thorn in my side for the rest of my life, that I must vigilantly work on, and be aware of. I never want to fall prey to a narcissistic relationship ever ever again. But, it will take me to be on guard, not obsessively so, but self aware.
Don't want to compare this to other addictions, but for me...I think this weakness for acquiring narcissists in my life, will always be there, if but very dim. I admit this to myself, now. I know what to look for now though, thanks to this website, and all the supporters and mods here who have educated me. But, I also know where my void comes from, and that is indeed liberating.
Here's to being free, Monarch, and everyone! :)
I know
May 17, 2012 - 10:01pm — neverlookbackthe pain of what you are experiencing and it WILL STOP - you are NOT SICK you are most likely detoxing compiled with much confusion and not understanding what is happening to you - I can clarify something with respect to the OW - she is just another enabler he found that is a believer in him as you once were - you were once her and she will be you one day - she will see the truth and it will hurt like hell - this is their cycle and this is the broken trails of destruction they leave behind them - He once gave you the grand performance and now he is just manipulating her with it - you gotta KNOW and study what these non human things are and then you can out smart them and your pain will ease -
When you decide you have had
May 17, 2012 - 10:01pm — HunterWhen you decide you have had enough.. You will stop begging and figure out the real issues..
Get to a therapist..for help.
Hunter
My counselor told me to tell
May 17, 2012 - 8:53pm — star17My counselor told me to tell myself everytime i call him i am giving him the opportunity to use me as his emotional punching bag and not her...she wasn't condoning his behavior just trying to show me to trick myself into thinking by calling i am actually helping their relationship. She is right. I just wish i didn't want his validation so badly. Tonight was awful i feel so low and sick inside like i just want to sleep for days. I feel so ashamed of myself. I told him to block my # so he did so i called from another phone and he told me i pushed him to do it and then blocked that # too...what is wrong with me :(
I`m sorry you are in such
May 17, 2012 - 9:47pm — JourneyI`m sorry you are in such pain Star, please realize the pain will stop being intense when you stay NC. What is wrong with you is that you were in a relationship with an abuser and by default, that means you feel responsible for the abuse you received, that you somehow deserved it.
We often need validation the most from the one who is cruelest, we do that to prove to ourselves we are `good enough`. The abuse tells us differently and we try so hard to be accepted and to make it `right` to fix the unfix-able.
The shame you feel, the anguish, it will all start to reverse itself the longer you stay completely NC from him. Worrying about him forgetting you is not helping you forget him - and that is way more important for you to do.
Think about yourself and how much better you will feel when you go a week, two weeks, a month WITHOUT seeking his validation. You truly WILL feel so much better. Trust that. Allow yourself to have faith in your ability to recover. You can!! xo
Thank you so much Journey...i
May 17, 2012 - 9:48pm — star17Thank you so much Journey...i will carry those thoughts with me tonight and pray for the strength to end this once and for all so i can have my happiness back!
You are welcome and remember,
May 17, 2012 - 10:07pm — JourneyYou are welcome and remember, the strength builds with each day you make it through caring MORE for yourself and your healing, than caring about anything you think or hope you can receive from him.
One day at a time... may I suggest that rather than pray for strength to end this, pray instead for acceptance that THIS reality you are in now, really IS BETTER for you in the long run, even through the pain you must get through at this time.
Allow yourself to have faith that by accepting this as truth, your strength will grow and your pain will weaken - naturally and in a way that WILL bring your happiness back - from within, as you reclaim your esteem and confidence that is no longer dependent on validation from anyone or anything outside of yourself.
((hugs))
before
May 17, 2012 - 11:35pm — mustlovedogs1960Remember what it was like before he tore a hole through your heart? Hold onto your independence. You were once whole then you met someone who you thought was the best thing and you ate it all up but then the abuse and neglect started. Become the woman you once were but now stronger because you overcame his control and evil ways. Be yourself and stop doubting who you are because he was so gosh darn wonderful...stop and think that the wonderful he portrayed really did not exist except in his demented mind.
Be strong and remain NC. I write this to help you and to help me too because strength in numbers helps.
Your counselor is RIGHT!!!!
May 17, 2012 - 9:14pm — LaylaEvery single time you contact him or you allow him to contact you it is opening the door for HIS abuse. How much more abuse and turmoil are YOU going to accept from this guy???
You need to go TOTAL No Contact on this emotionally abusing PD if you want to start feeling better!!!!! With time, you won't feel the need for his "validation" because you will see much more clearly how BAD HE IS FOR YOU!!!!!
Why are you doing this to yourself??? Only YOU can stop this. He isn't going to change. Have you been reading about PDs??? Have you been working the steps on the Path Forward??? I feel terrible you are feeling so badly but you are the one allowing this!! Stop that!!!
YOU need to block his number, and change your phone number if necessary. YOU need to block him AND her on facebook. Any and all avenues of potential contact with him needs to be blocked. YOU take back YOUR power and YOU do the blocking.
NOTHING is wrong with you. You are prey to a disordered person. Cut off the disordered, come back here and read. Goldie and Lisa run 6 week support groups via telephone. Perhaps you can PM Goldie and inquire when the next group starts and what you need to do. When you help YOURSELF, GOOD THINGS will start to happen for YOU and YOU will feel good and IN CONTROL again.
Please think about what I wrote.
love~ Layla
Thank you Layla...that is
May 17, 2012 - 9:24pm — star17Thank you Layla...that is what kills me...i know i allow it...he tells me if i never called him again he'd be happy and he'd never call me...guess what that makes me call him more because i don't want him to forget about me. I know what is right and wrong i am just stuck. I feel like unless he is there i can't move on...he has a girlfriend and they do everything i dreamt of doing with him together...after 3 years i got shit and after a few months she get's it all...just makes me so sad inside.
Congrats to her
May 17, 2012 - 9:30pm — ruby01for winning the BOOBY PRIZE!
LOL! that made me
May 17, 2012 - 9:38pm — star17LOL! that made me laugh...thank you!
She is NOT "getting it all" she is in the "Idealization" phase!
May 17, 2012 - 9:30pm — LaylaPlease read:
http://psychopathyawareness.wordpress.com/2010/12/22/the-psychopaths-rel...
You need to fully educate yourself on the PDI. She's with this guy a few months and you were with him for three years? Guess who knows the REAL HIM?? That's right love, YOU DO! He has shown you REAL GUY, she is seeing FAKE GUY and you best believe it.
Read, read and READ!!! Please consider the weekly support group with Goldie and Lisa.
love~ Layla
Thank you again Layla...his
May 17, 2012 - 9:40pm — star17Thank you again Layla...his ex wife told me he was a sociopath...i did not believe her...a mutual friend of ours told me he was a narcissist...i did not believe her...now here i sit 4 years later in misery while he is with someone new...i guess it is my fear that thinks he has changed for her...
Listen to Layla!!
May 17, 2012 - 9:53pm — JourneyListen to me, to everyone else on this forum that understands PDs - THEY DON`T CHANGE FOR ANYONE!!!! Read the blogs, read the link that Layla (I think) shared above about PD relationship phases - they are always the same.
They only appear to change during the idealization phase, but they DON`T really, they just wear the mask tight to hook the supply they are seeking. You`ve had two separate people who KNOW him WELL tell you he is a narcissist and a sociopath - even if you didn`t believe them before - BELIEVE IT NOW!
NO CONTACT is the only way to see the forest from the trees and right now you are DEEP in the woods. NC!! xoxo
Thank you ladies...if you had
May 17, 2012 - 9:56pm — star17Thank you ladies...if you had any idea how many times i have started and stopped NC you'd probably strangle me :( i try...i fail...i try again...i have to just do it this time!
Hun
May 18, 2012 - 1:31am — sweetpeasarahmost of us have been there! Recently I broke almost 3 month's NC, following a hoover from toad, which i fell for, went back to the most loving caring, charming man, it lasted 10 days before the mask slipped AGAIN. Yes just 10 days. He D & d me all over again, and it was awful, set me back weeks. even knowing everything i thought id well and truely learned here, i fell for the BS.
there was a time in the beginning, when i first joined here, i was secretly hoping that he would hoover, he didnt to start with (cos had OW) and NC was still a big effort on my part because i felt i needed to 'remind' him of me, but each day i battled the urge it got easier. Yes, i fell off the wagon, but my goodness did that teach me a huge lesson, they NEVER EVER change, not just because they dont want to, but they CANT. So please, every time you feel like your going to contact him, remember that he WILL do all the same crap to you, but worse, and beleive me when i say you really dont want to go there.
Im back to day 7 of NC, and am determined this time! Be determined with me!!
Hugs
xx
Sweetpea sarah, Same here.
May 18, 2012 - 7:11am — beautifulmessSweetpea sarah,
Same here. (wow .. I am always saying same here and sounds familiar on this site! ). I don't know if it can be called hoovered because I was the one making contact, but N spent the week here last week, it was a great week, and I thought we might get back together, I brought him home Sunday.. After hugs , i love yous , and Happy Mothers days..On Monday I had pms.. Feeling emotional, so I asked him to come over, I needed comfort. Well I was coldly told "No I am not coming over you can do this, goodnight". Silent treatment. I now see how I was used. His family (NS) are in FL vacationing, so he must have bern running low and I was only NS immediately available. So yep, I texted ALOT yesterday out of pain and anger over ST. Which he did respond to occasionally with "fuck off" and "you have nothing better to do than text me? Go fuck yourself". But today is new day and Sweetpea today I am going to be determined with you! It's Friday and Fridays are hardest for me but I am going to do this!
Don`t worry what we`d think,
May 17, 2012 - 10:50pm — JourneyDon`t worry what we`d think, this isn`t about us, this is about staying NC for you! Like Hunter says, when you have had enough of the pain, you`ll do what you have to in order to succeed in remaining NC, because contact = pain, every time.
I promise you, once you remain NC long enough, you will understand why we all say it is necessary in order to really start healing, because it is only through NC that clarity can develop. xo
They don't change for anyone because they are UNCHANGABLE!
May 17, 2012 - 9:49pm — LaylaWow, now it's all coming out.....even ex-wife says he is a sociopath..........there you go! End of story...no other words need to be told...he has a HISTORY of treating women like garbage. What a legacy! NOT!
You know what you need to do...listen to the awesome advice given here and go TOTAL No Contact. You got an ex wife and YOU with a track record with this clown..and you two are not the only ones I can assure you.....he is never going to change because they CAN'T change.
Run from this abuser like your hair is on fire.
love~ Layla
It's an addiction
May 17, 2012 - 9:13pm — ruby01What you are craving to take away the pain is the very thing that's causing the pain in the first place.
You are going to have to toughin' up and get through the withdrawal so you can be healthy and happy.
Block him everywhere and when you do feel tempted. Think it through and remember the facts- He is going to repeat his past and treat you like sh@T.
Another fact:
YOU'RE NOT. HE IS!
Thank you Ruby...i know i
May 17, 2012 - 9:21pm — star17Thank you Ruby...i know i have to toughen up believe me! that is my main problem i have no self worth...3 years of being torn down and i know others have had it worse but i look to him to build me up and all he does it tear me down...that is why i think i am the sick one...who would want to speak to someone who calls them crazy and tells them they are pathetic and sick?! yet when he blocked my # my world stopped i felt so panicked like i couldn't breathe...why?! he did me a favor by blocking my # so at least now i can't be bullied...but i still feel like i am suffocating and i can imagine the laughs him and his girlfriend are having at my pain right now. :(
Right on Ruby!
May 17, 2012 - 9:15pm — LaylaPreach it, sister!!!
love~ Layla
I agree with your counselor,
May 17, 2012 - 8:57pm — uncomfortablynumbI agree with your counselor, you are helping his new relationship by letting him know you are right there and he can parade her around AND get your attention, and make him feel more justified in doing what he is doing...it's hard to just stop seeking out something you need...eventually you'll exhaust yourself and stop.
i feel so embarrassed right
May 17, 2012 - 9:02pm — star17i feel so embarrassed right now...this all started because of facebook...he is blocked but he is still friends with my brother in law. he doesn't like him and never did yet still because facebook buddies...he doesn't communicate with him on there but all of a sudden the day he changed his picture to him and his girlfriend he had to comment so all would see and one of my friends told me...she thought i knew but i didn't...i was heartbroken...i tried tonight to try to explain why it was so hurtful and that i'd appreciate him removing my family from his facebook...he said i was pathetic and should get over it but that he'd remove him...he never did remove him and ended up blocking my phone #'s...how did this backfire in my face? now i am the crazy pathetic psycho?! :(
Ahh facebook...that's what
May 17, 2012 - 9:08pm — uncomfortablynumbAhh facebook...that's what was getting me every time...i say WAS, but i'm still fresh on the fb wagon.
I started a new account with a fake name, and a profile pic that's just a generic picture, not me.
Friended only those i am in current real life contact wiht, and deactivated the original one for the time being,
Less temptation to peek, and just a temporary break from being in the know about my less-significant others..
When i know for sure that i don't care what I see, I'll give it as much time as possible, I'll reactivate the new one....or not.
I mean reactivate the old
May 17, 2012 - 9:09pm — uncomfortablynumbI mean reactivate the old one...i may not bother i'm kind of getting used to only seeing my current in-person network.
i hate it at times...i love
May 17, 2012 - 9:14pm — star17i hate it at times...i love all the old friends i have reconnected with but it definitely makes break ups so much harder!