Differing opinions of board members - Acceptance

Klarity Belle

Member since:
2 years 9 weeks

Last activity:
34 weeks 1 day

Differing opinions of board members - Acceptance

Posted July 30, 2010 - 4:45am

For those who donâ€™t know my story, I co-parent with an abusive N. My original reason for joining the board was to gain further insight and support with co-parenting issues. I have not been in relationship to a cluster B type for 8 years+. My last relationship ended two years ago to an Avpd man (Avoidant personality disorder, cluster c). Since then I have been in therapy and a member of several well established online support forums, in order to better understand personality disorders in general and heal my original wounds from a childhood of loss and emotional abuse.

It is my belief that my early wounding made me easy prey for hungry narcs passing my way throughout adulthood. NONE OF THIS IS MY FAULT but recovery of the person I really am is my responsibility now that I am self-aware. I suffer with ComplexPTSD and ADD - I have accepted that both these conditions are the result of psychological harm inflicted on me over a long period of time as opposed to believing I have intrinsic disorders. Here is a link to some interesting information to back this up http://www.bullyonline.org/stress/ptsd.htm#Differences

From my own observations over the last 34 weeks since I joined IAAH, there are two differing camps here. I personally fit into camp 2 and I am open to differing opinions about this:-

Camp 1. Believe narcissists are predators and anyone can fall victim to them through no fault of their own. Camp 1 advocate zero tolerance for 'blame the victim' mentality (and sometimes perceived blame the victim mentality). They do not believe co-dependent models have any place within the dynamic of a relationship with an NPD or psycho/sociopath.

(I think it is fair to say that when someone is actively aware of their own wounded areas and that they have been/are being abused and are working towards self-healing, that the term co-dependency does not fit.)

Imo, until very recently, the entire board was run as Camp 1 only, although there existed Camp 2 members and lurkers who were afraid to speak up and state their own realities.

Camp 2. Believe narcissists are predators and anyone can fall victim to them through no fault of their own. So far so good â€“ strong common ground. But.....

Camp 2 have the added belief that N's are attracted in particular to certain types â€“ As well as being gentle, empathic, caring, nurturing â€“ (qualities shared by those in camp 1), Camp 2 consists of those who have had previous N conditioning, some of them from childhood. A pre-abused person is ready groomed for a lazy narc and if extremely downtrodden, these particular targets can suffer a long history of low self esteem, lack of voice, and general doormat symptoms such as people pleasing. This has certainly been my own experience.

The second camp are interested in exploring an understanding of their own make up and why they have become prime targets or â€˜narc magnetsâ€™ over a long period of time - since childhood for many!.THIS IS NOT THE VICTIMâ€™S FAULT and a very important lesson for Camp 2 folk to learn before continuing on the road of self-recovery. For such types, there is a belief and plenty of personal evidence that there are core patterns of thinking and behaviour that can be worked on at a deeper level within ourselves to avoid falling into familiar N traps in the future. To back up these ideas, here is a link to a professional paper on the re-enactment of trauma http://www.cirp.org/library/psych/vanderkolk/

From my own experiences, I have found that my own fear of intimacy/abandonment has left me more open to attack from predatory types in the past because my own fear is triggered when pursued by a 'healthy' man. In contrast, on meeting an unhealthy man â€˜pretendingâ€™ to fit my fantasies of an â€˜idealâ€™ romantic partner, there is a high chemical reaction. (I have learned that this is now a sign for me to turn around and run as fast as I can!).

There is general acceptance in camp 2, that people who did not undergo dysfunctional childhoods/serial relationship abuse can also fall victim to narcissists through NO FAULT of their own, to be human it seems is â€˜weaknessâ€™ enough for a Narc! It is widely accepted within Camp 2 that NPD's can infiltrate and affect the lives and psyches of absolutely anyone - including the likes of experts on pathology like Dr Robert Hare. Whilst accepting this, Camp 2 have a belief that Nâ€™s favour targeting their particular personality type if there is one to hand over a harder nut to crack i.e. those with no previous narc abuse.

From my recent observations, This board has undergone some significant changes and more of the Camp 2 thinkers have come forward and spoken up a little. Previously, these kind of explorations were not given credence on this board, in fact they were shouted down, and I feel it may take some time for the two different schools of thought to reach a place of acceptance of each other and more harmonious ground.

That said, if you fall into camp 1, then please try to understand that narcissists also prey on those of us who were not so emotionally healthy to start with. We have a long history of abuse and wounding and could do with your patience and support. By bringing down our voice/opinions on the board regarding our issues which to us are very real, it doesn't help us in moving forward.

Camp 2 folk are the most deeply wounded amongst us, we are highly sensitive people and have fought long and hard to get to this stage of healing and using our voices. I have seen several long time/valuable members become distressed and leave the board in recent weeks for this reason. (Previously, before the recent changes here, it was a regular occurance and there is plenty of historical evidence here of hurt people, reaching out for support being bullied and judged and leaving this forum even more hurt and abused than when they came.) Having observed the flux, imo this board is currently in a period of transition and working towards a more suitable way of operating.

Please letâ€™s try to accept there will be differing opinions on this board, that we all have unique histories and are at various stages of recovery from Narc abuse.

"The other side of the coin is the other side of the coin"

July 30, 2010 - 6:54pm — Susan32

That's a wise Japanese proverb, applicable here. While I see myself in Camp 1, I can see where Camp 2 has beneficial arguments as well.

I had some lousy dating relationships in high school, but thank goodness they ended before I got waaay emotionally involved and didn't get physically involved. It was high school. There were disappointments, but the disappointments weren't devastating.

My maternal grandmother is an N.... so in a sense I was prepared to deal with an N. But an N is NOTHING compared to a Psychopath.

Narcissists don't see the mess they're making;Psychopaths LIKE making the mess.

There is no need for there to be bad blood here. There's room for disagreement without there being acrimony.

Besides, Camps 1 and 2 AGREE on the fundamentals,"It's NOT your fault."

Susan32

July 31, 2010 - 6:24am — Klarity Belle

"There is no need for there to be bad blood here. There's room for disagreement without there being acrimony.

Besides, Camps 1 and 2 AGREE on the fundamentals,"It's NOT your fault." - well said.

I've been in therapy with a Jungian analyst for 2 years now. The main aim of this kind of therapy is to make the unconcsious conscious, to bring the shadows out into the light and look at them there, after that they are not so scary any more.

This type of therapy has worked really well with my repressed and unresolved traumas and grief and I find it works well in more tangible situations too. Here for instance, there was a clear rift coming up in posts, people leaving the board etc. I chose to bring the rift into the open light for discussion and now it 'feels' like it isn't so scary anymore. If that makes sense! :}

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The deeper that sadness carves into your being, the more joy you can contain." ~ Kahlil Gibran

"That which we do not confront in ourselves we meet as fate" ~ Carl Jung

http://www.storyofmylife.com/KLARITY4

Klarity Belle

July 30, 2010 - 3:44pm — AnotherPath

Thanks so much for this post, I agree with all you have written, coming from camp 2. Yes, he wasn't the first narc in my life, but I'm determined he's going to be the last, which is the place I was coming from when I wrote the "glitch" topic. I would like to heal from this so that I'm in a place that is infinitely better than where I've ever been, I would like to take this experience as an opportunity to be the most self aware than I've ever been, I want to learn about me from this and have a more fulfilling life because of this.

This might help.

July 30, 2010 - 3:49pm — ShaynasMommy

I'm thinking that I fall into Camp 2. While I fully agree that Camp 1 and Camp 2 both have valid POV's and neither should be fighting over it, I would like to offer up a simple reason why I stay in camp 2, in the hopes that it might turn a light bulb on for some folks.

The very reason why I am in Camp 2, is because that line of thinking is the VERY thing that enabled me to go NC, and stay that way from day 1. I figured that if I didn't take some responsibility for what happened next, then I would only get more abuse. An N doesn't get anywhere without finding holes in the armor, and for most of us, being real live human beings, we have those. Some of us have more than others.

So, at that point, I figured my best plan would be to retreat to no contact, identify and patch the holes, and live to fight another day.

Thanks for the post Klarity Belle

July 30, 2010 - 3:16pm — time_to_move_on

I fall under camp2, my father was horrible, my mother stayed with him and became very manipulative herself with me and my siblings after he went.

So for me, I went out with a string of abusers (personality disordered, people with addictions) but it's only now I can see my own issues going on.

I thought so much of it was normal. In fact, I can remember a friend of mine talking about my younger brother, saying that he never removes himself from dangerous situations, he would happily sit there and talk with a psychopath, whereas he'd remove himself at once (we were talking about travelling around dangerous countries). I thought about this then it clicked. I now remove myself from people who are psychopathic/narcs, they make me feel uncomfortable. But in the past I went out with them, it was comfortable. My younger brother doesn't have relationships with them, but he'll stay in a room and talk with them, find them good company and ignore danger signs.

I've had to take a long hard look at my background and my interactions to get to the point where I am stopping entertaining narcs (by entertaining I don't just mean relationships). It's not about blaming myself, but I know there are certain things I've had to do. I'll never go out with someone like that again, but sometimes I find it hard to work out if I'll ever have a healthy one-on-one relationship.

That's why I find boards like this and others great (along with therapy), and I like the fact we all have differing opinions and backgrounds. It's nice to have respectful and healthy debates.

time-to-move-on

July 30, 2010 - 3:46pm — ShaynasMommy

"I'll never go out with someone like that again, but sometimes I find it hard to work out if I'll ever have a healthy one-on-one relationship.

I felt like that once, after a string of rebound Narc relationships (none of them were as long or as intensely abusive as the first one, though). But I came to realize that when we have these doubts about ever finding something good, its just another way of cognitive dissonace (i hope i spelled that right)rearing its ugly head.

After years of abuse I couldn't recognize a good relationship if it bit me in the ass, even though I logically knew they existed. Kinda like holding out to see if the Narc has anything to offer you, but deep down you know he doesn't give a shit and never will.

don't worry, if you want it, someone great is out there for you, its only a matter of time and healing. Have Faith!

At Al Anon meetings it is

July 30, 2010 - 3:25pm — better off

At Al Anon meetings it is really incredible how many people from alcoholic families, who suffered, go right on to marry an alcoholic. And didn't even really realize the person WAS an alcoholic at first. It just feels "normal."

As the saying goes "you did the best you could with what you knew; when you knew more, you did better." We have all done the best we could as we've gone along, and we are here to learn how to do better now.

One thing I garnered from a meeting was that new behavior, even if it is healthy and correct, will not FEEL right at first, because it's different, it's not comfortable. So we have to learn to move past the discomfort of that and keep up what we know is rationally more healthy behavior, and trust that eventually it WILL feel normal as we practice it. Reversal of crazy N crap feeling normal the longer it went on.

We have so much to learn

July 30, 2010 - 2:25pm — Briseis

We have so much to learn from each other :)

This community is a "mini community" within the whole community of human beings. It's weird but the divisions within our community are similar to the divisions that occur between the East and West, Christianity and Judaism and Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism.

I apologize for getting too "out there" already LOL!!

Anyway, what I propose the core "problematic" belief beneath any schism, one found here or way out there in the world, is that all too human foible "I'm right, you're wrong, so now I'm gonna make you see the light, and if you won't, I'm gonna kick your ass."

I'm a solid Camp 2 kind of gal. It's all I know. I have no problem with the idea that my vulnerabilities made me a sitting duck for pathological relationships. It is no insult to me, it is not "blaming the victim" in any way. I am not to BLAME for being a sitting duck, as Klarity Belle says, or any molecule of abuse I endured, ever.

I also think some of the pathological folks are so good that they are able to fool the likes of Robert Hare, who STUDIES THEM for god's sake LOL!! He admits it openly.

The point (to me) is to not insist upon having a gospel truth for everyone, and anyone who does not agree is wrong, in denial, stupid or destined for failure.

I think it feels "safer" to zealously consider yourself "right", which is why people fall into that in the first place. Being "right" is based upon fear, though, not upon reality or truth.

But, Briseis, though you

July 30, 2010 - 3:00pm — better off

But, Briseis, though you mean well, I feel you are doing a bit of the same thing, saying unequivocally that some people who are simply making declarative statements are not right to do so, and you are right in opposing that. People with strong opinions have as much right to state them as people who feel less. And some of the people with the strong opinions have come by them by very hard experience, which is why they may be passionate about what they are saying, or they may just have a strong personality. It doesn't mean by default that they are basing their opinions on some kind of irrational fear.

And I disagree in part simply because some people are in denial, and denial can actually get you killed or maimed. Or worse, cause children to be hurt. Denial is a real coping mechanism, and some of us learned it as a child in order to survive, but it does not serve an adult well at all. Some women will stay in denial that their husband or boyfriend is molesting their daughter, as an example. Because it's easier than facing it or doing anything about it. Substance abusers rely on denial.

Narcissists are 99% unlikely to change. This IS based upon reality and truth. I do not believe it is wrong to tell people the truth. Pathology does not change, staying with a person like this will hurt you. Perhaps some aren't "ready" in their journey to "hear" that, which is denial then IMO, but that doesn't mean it's wrong to say it.

And nobody has to DO anything that someone says here anyway. I go to 12 Step meetings for Al Anon, and as is the case there, with a mixture of people, the saying is take what you like, and leave the rest.

I guess in summary, I think if it's okay for the "camp 2" people to speak up more, it's not as if "camp 1" people can no longer speak at all. That's not right either. Or perhaps making people feel like if they are confident in their opinions then they are now labeled as "camp 1" and not enlightened enough to speak now.

Better off

July 30, 2010 - 4:52pm — Briseis

Your quote:

I guess I wasn't thinking that the folks who speak out strongly are in Camp 1 any more than Camp 2. I'm coming into this forum after the fact. I am aware of the issue from being a lurker though.

I'm very confident in my position, and I've come to it like you said, from hard work and life experience. I don't know what it is like to NOT have been damaged by personality disordered parents from birth. I don't feel confident at all to speak from any other point of view. I understand there are survivors of Narcs who had idyllic childhoods and were simply bamboozled. I don't think they are "in denial" when they say "there was nothing wrong with me to cause this".

If a person becomes rigid and demanding about their position, whatever it is, I believe they are coming from a place of irrational fear. Just my take on it. I don't profess to emit anything but my personal conclusions, which I happen to think are right but are probably wrong in ways I just don't know it yet LOL.

There is a meeting ground between both camps, where 1's and 2's are really just fellow Narc survivors. In both groups there are folks in massive denial. Anyone who gets rigid and demanding and judgmental is suspicious, to me.

This is a "false" schism, in my humble opinion. It exists but it's not "real". It is more a function of the growth and integration of ideas.

I in no way meant to suggest one group or the other should be silenced . . . perhaps though I am implying some idea that is creeping out that I'm not aware of. Hmmm. It wouldn't be the first time :D . I just feel very comfortable and confident in my "take" and it works for me, and I really don't believe it is any better than any one else's :)

This is kind of a tangent,

July 30, 2010 - 3:18pm — better off

This is kind of a tangent, but my pet theory (just from observation) is that some people are more prone to denial as a coping mechanism, than say another person who uses some other sort of coping mechanism (like avoiding conflict at all costs or something like that.) I have two sons. My oldest is like me and is not afraid of confrontation, if anything our "coping" method could be labeled "aggressive" when it's out of control. We believe in objective reality at all costs, and we don't back down. This can also be known as, um... defiance. ;) So if he was doing something he wasn't supposed to be doing, and got corrected, he would look me straight in the eye, and defy me. He WAS doing it, and was GOING to do it, and what did I have to say about that? Well, he didn't like the consequences of those actions. ;) We had a bit of a power struggle for a few years, but he is a great kid, and one thing he doesn't do is lie. Not to me and not to himself.

Youngest Kid comes along, and I swear to you, this child was BORN in denial. There are some family members on my husband's side that are just truly truly dysfunctional and completely dedicated to denial, and nothing EVER improves for them because they refuse to ever be honest about what is going on! My husband leans very strongly in that direction... kid 2 comes along and by the time that kid was two years old, I realized it comes NATURALLY to him. If HE was doing something and got caught, he would say, to my face, that he wasn't doing it. And cry. Because he didn't WANT to be doing it now, and he hated it, and he would NOT admit he did it, even though he could SEE ME... SEEING HIM... DO IT. This is harder than hell to discipline, by the way. What do you do with someone who won't even admit that a "crime" was committed. I once grounded him for two days until he admitted he did something, something that was only a mistake! But he would not admit it. He finally apologized for "pretending" he didn't do it.

I am probably too hard on him... but geez louise, I cannot let him go thru life "pretending" that things aren't what they are. On the flip side, he has a wonderful imagination, he is a gifted artist... very compassionate and feeling... the "realist" older child is too stern and he didn't believe in Santa by the time he was five. It just didn't make sense and wasn't practical, lol.

So. Two sides of a coin. Both "types" have strengths and weaknesses.

My opinion

July 30, 2010 - 12:35pm — better off

I kind of see it as two separate issues.

I think that anyone can be duped by a narcissist. Anyone can be fooled once by a good one. And frankly, N's are lying to everyone they meet, so it's a matter of circumstances, fate sometimes!, and what the N is seeking as to who/what gets caught in their web.

What happens AFTER you realize you've been duped by the narcissist, I think, is more about the Camp 2 discussion. How much are you willing to take, deny, forgive, etc? How strong are your abandonment feelings, etc? How "trained" were you by messed up folks in your family of origin?

I had some issues from growing up, and I had some confusion about boundaries in a love relationship for sure. But, luckily for me, I do not engage in denial about much of anything. One thing that did not occur in my FOO was denial. We had some problems but we knew it, lol. So I didn't have a legacy of denial, as it were. So it was "easier" in some respects for me to see the truth and try to extricate myself. Painful and sickening, but I knew it was true, that this f**ker played me. Hard to face? Excruciating! But doing so shortened the time wasted on this jerk.

The issues that I had to change in myself were about the boundaries thing... I have fairly strong boundaries in general, but when you "love someone" well that's when I have some kind of irrational level of loyalty and self-sacrifice, that it turns out, is really not required. lol There is so much gobbledy-gook about "unconditional love" but that's crap. I unconditionally love my children. But even having Unconditional Love as a GOAL with an *equal* is stupid. Of course it's conditional. If someone treats you badly or needs more than you can rationally give, then it's okay to say no, I will not do this anymore. I was raised as a Christian, and I am now a Christian, and I have had to do a lot of work to unravel all of that. Just the other day I had an epiphany of sorts that "forgiveness does not equal TRUST."

I am rambling at this point, sorry! I guess I just wanted to say that I think anyone can be duped, but how long you "let" them keep duping you is up to you. Yes, they brainwash you, but just as an alcoholic, who IS addicted, is the only one who can break the addiction, the same is true of us. If you are on this board, then you KNOW something is wrong, and only YOU can change it.

better off...I agree

July 30, 2010 - 5:17pm — hitandrun

Surely I come off as a Camp 1, but in reality I agree with much of what better off is saying.

What I will not tolerate(not meaning you don't have the right to believe it) is it always coming down to it being the unfortunate person's fault that he/she got involved with a narcissist. I call Bullsh*t. It's not my fault. It's not the Law of Attraction. It is not my unique vulnerabilities thay can smell a mile away. Not buying it, you can,

Even the most wonderful, well-balanced, no child-hood issues
confident whatever type of person can be duped by a con-artist. I still cannot believe it some days!

I think it is important to give yourself some credit(meaning the people who have had this experience). Some people have had bad experiences that make them feel more vulnerable. Others of us are narc magnets because we grew up with one as a parent and it's kind of what we feel comfortable with and you don't even realize it(my personal story, that I realized AFTER the D&D).

Ladies and gentleman, please don't sell yourself short. You weren't a stupid person...you were a loving, compassionate, strong person who has flaws just like everyone else. We all
have our cross to bear, but does it have to define us? I personally find labels very limiting.

And what you do in the aftermath makes a HUGE difference in healing. Accepting personal responsibility for your own healing is important. Bash the narc as long as you need to, but move forward when you can. He/She has taken up to much space in your mind. If you are still bashing him/her all the time, this person still has the power. Do you think they give a rat's a$$ about you as you think about them all the time?

You choose what is right for you in your healing journey.

If I have seemed militant and have offended anyone, I apologize for that. But I do not apologize for wanting everyone here to know it was not your fault that you got conned! They are messed up. If you choose not to accept responsibility for healing and just continue with the blame game, that's a different story. Grieving is not linear and we all are on different time tables for healing.

Much love to you all. I am not to the other-side myself.
Every time I fall, I have no choice but to pick myself up again(after I wallow in it for awhile..of course!) I have no one to do it for me. It's just me.

And better off, I seem to be rambling at this point,too.
Oh well : )

Everybody keep the faith. We are all on the same side...just different viewpoints. And I am very thankful we can express
our different viewpoints on this board.

Better Off

July 30, 2010 - 1:52pm — KB2

You sound like a well balanced lady who was duped and who has returned to your original state of balance with the added bonus of a few adjustments that are making your life even better - thus your handle I am guessing :}

What I am learning from all these differing experiences and opinions is that regardless of how much trauma there was or wasn't, there is a huge amount of cultural/social/religious conditioning within our modern society that 'grooms' us (particularly women) to believe certain fallasies e.g. the fairytale dream of true love and the ideal partner. We go on believing these until something comes along to break the false beliefs, sadly for many it is an opportunistic N - ever ready with their observations of poor, weak, mere mortals and their fantastic acting abilities!

Education, exercising our boundaries and self-care seem to be the key areas for recovery. Sadly, so little is known or understood about Npd or any Pd's for that matter unless someone is a mental health professional or has had a first hand experience of them. Imo, this stuff should be taught in schools. Forward ladies!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The deeper that sadness carves into your being, the more joy you can contain." ~ Kahlil Gibran

"That which we do not confront in ourselves we meet as fate" ~ Carl Jung

http://www.storyofmylife.com/KLARITY4
(KB2 temporary account)

I think I've learned a lot

July 30, 2010 - 3:45pm — better off

I think I've learned a lot about myself and my psyche... I am capable of very deep intense emotional connection. But I have learned that that says more about ME than about the person I felt connected to. The depth of my feelings is about my ability to feel things deeply, not about the "object" that I feel deeply about. I am using that term loosely, not as a narc would about another person (because it can be attached to a place even) I read a lot of Elaine Aron's work about this, she has the site and books The Highly Sensitive Person. That helped me process my heartbreak so much better. It was not that my "true love" was really really really that special as much as when I commit myself to love I feel really really really deeply. I don't often do this, either, because it's too consuming. I now see this as a trait of my temperament than that these people were "soulmates" although it can feel that way when it is happening. It's also something of a mistake to believe that ONLY this type of intense attraction and connection is "love."

Still working all that out.

I know. It drives me crazy,

July 30, 2010 - 2:42pm — better off

I know. It drives me crazy, they spend more time teaching how to put on a condom instead of how to protect yourself from the guy with the condom.

Great posts all

July 30, 2010 - 9:34am — wholeagain

Thanks Klarity, and all the responders too. I personally feel very accepted here and that for a diverse group of anonymous people we all do a good job of supporting each other. I'm sure we can always do better and we're just the kind of folks who strive to :)

KlarityBelle

July 30, 2010 - 9:19am — Lisa E. Scott

Wow, I couldn't have said it better either. Thank you so much for posting this, Klarity Belle! I think it's so important that we respect each other's opinions and points of view. What works for one may not work for another.

If advice is helpful to you, comment on it or reinforce it. If not, please be respectful and refrain from saying anything. Unless someone is being abusive or vulgar, we are all entitled to our opinions.

I love the five star hotel idea, NinjaGirl! LOL

Nancy, I love what you said:

"For me, if I can post one thing, that helps one person, only at one time, then it is worth being here."

It reminds me of a story my Mom used to tell all her teachers. She is a retired elementary school Principal. It's a story I live by:

The Star Fish

Based on the story by Loren Eisley...

I awoke early, as I often did, just before sunrise to walk by the ocean's edge and greet the new day. As I moved through the misty dawn, I focused on a faint, far away motion. I saw a youth, bending and reaching and flailing arms, dancing on the beach, no doubt in celebration of the perfect day soon to begin.

As I approached, I sadly realized that the youth was not dancing to the bay, but rather bending to sift through the debris left by the night's tide, stopping now and then to pick up a starfish and then standing, to heave it back into the sea. I asked the youth the purpose of the effort. "The tide has washed the starfish onto the beach and they cannot return to the sea by themselves," the youth replied. "When the sun rises, they will die, unless I throw them back to the sea."

As the youth explained, I surveyed the vast expanse of beach, strectching in both directions beyond my sight. Starfish littered the shore in numbers beyond calculation. The hopelessness of the youth's plan became clear to me and I countered, "But there are more starfish on this beach than you can ever save before the sun is up. Surely you cannot expect to make a difference."

The youth paused briefly to consider my words, bent to pick up a starfish and threw it as far as possible. Turning to me he simply said, "I made a difference to that one."

I left the boy and went home, deep in thought of what the boy had said. I returned to the beach and spent the rest of the day helping the boy throw starfish in to the sea.

Klarity Belle

July 30, 2010 - 6:52am — NancyM

I could not have articulated that better if I tried. Also must commend you on your name in how you can clarify an argument. While I may think it, I could not articulate what you have accomplished here in a pink fit.

This argument is not meant to be divisive in any terms. We all come from different walks of life, we all have experiences that may cross over but are not all going to be the same.

I think the best thing we can all do is respect each others opinions, and if they do not fit us, we simply go on somewhere else, to state our own.

For me, if I can post one thing, that helps one person, only at one time, then it is worth being here.

NancyM

July 30, 2010 - 7:56am — KB2

I typed up a detailed response to your very interesting thread on ADD/NPD yesterday but experienced problems when posting. I have set up this temporary account until my primary account is operating smoothly again.

Thank you so much for your recent validating posts, they have meant a great deal. It isn't always easy to speak up when one feels they are going against the grain a little.

"For me, if I can post one thing, that helps one person, only at one time, then it is worth being here."

Well said, walking this path of recovery is made even more worthwhile if we are able to give back in some way too and I am so grateful to all those out there in cyberland who have given me helping hands along the way too.

What about those of us who

July 30, 2010 - 6:37am — NinjaGirl

What about those of us who don't like camping and instead prefer to stay in a hotel?

I say this completely tongue in cheek, and having just woken up, but while I'm sure that many things I say are disagreed with, I'm going to continue to say them, as kindly as possible, because they come from my heart. And I hope everyone else does the same.

I can't speak for everyone else, but I do think that being with my ex has made me a lot more sensitive than I would otherwise be, and I don't think I'm alone in that.

I think respect should be given all around, and also that people should think carefully about another person's advice before letting their feelings get hurt over it, because the advice might turn out to be completely valid and helpful. I include myself in this. I have a tendency now to, if I feel offended, walk away for a bit, remind myself that no one's trying to hurt me, and then come back and see the comment from a completely different perspective. It's been very helpful.

NinjaGirl

July 30, 2010 - 7:51am — KB2

"What about those of us who don't like camping and instead prefer to stay in a hotel?"

Brilliant! Hopefully once the board moves forward towards a more positive future - the acceptance of differing views and mutual respect will represent a 5 star hotel with spa!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The deeper that sadness carves into your being, the more joy you can contain." ~ Kahlil Gibran

"That which we do not confront in ourselves we meet as fate" ~ Carl Jung

http://www.storyofmylife.com/KLARITY4
(temporary IAAH account KB2)

Ninja Girl and KB2

July 30, 2010 - 5:25pm — hitandrun

My friends keep trying to get me to like camping, but I'm with you...5 star hotel all the way : )

And KB2, I'm all for the Spa...

The board will get more positive, it already has. Rome wasn't built in a day. And when humans(not narcs) are involved, difference of opinions can occur.

Two Steps Forward, One Step Back tm

(Hope the above isn't trade marked...already have enough legal issues with the narc!)

So many good points here in

July 30, 2010 - 6:21pm — almostlydia

So many good points here in all these post. I especially LOVE the Starfish story, Lisa.

I know I am hypersensitive to a number of things but mostly to being lumped into the label 'weak' or somehow 'not normal'. I already spent far too long beating myself up over feeling that this must true not only because of the N but, then again, by the treatment of so called friends. I was barely holding on to the shred of self confidence I had left when one day I got hold of myself and thought of all the things I had accomplished before and, especially, during the emotional devastation of the exN. They were powerhouse things that not many could pull off on a good day without the added circumstance of having an N in there life. And I never had the thought of being 'weak' or 'abnormal' again.

Everyone is in a different place of healing and learning and questioning. There is much to be learned from those who have been there, done that. There is much incite to be shared. But the thrust of the site as well as many other sites pertaining to the victims of N's is that 'It is Not Your Fault'. As hard as it is to wrap our minds around it, it is true for everyone no matter what camp your in.

"But the thrust of the site

July 30, 2010 - 6:25pm — Steph

"But the thrust of the site as well as many other sites pertaining to the victims of N's is that 'It is Not Your Fault'. As hard as it is to wrap our minds around it, it is true for everyone no matter what camp your in."

Thanks for this!

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