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I just finished reading Lisa's book . I understand the Madonna-Whore complex in theory but having a hard time applying it to my situation.I do remember my ex saying he and his ex wife stopped having sex all together(they were together a total of maybe 4 years.) He and I never did we had a very normal sex life from day one. Does this mean he isn't a narc or does it mean he simply viewed me as a whore? Also so when you yell at them and treat them like dirt they are more attracted to you ?
Sex
June 8, 2010 - 3:30pm — ewaI do not remember to have normal sex with my ex N too. Maybe on the beginning, but with time it got worse and worse. Actually we almost didn't have sex in the last months. I thought is because of his age(43). But now i have doubts about it.
I would have those doubts
June 8, 2010 - 4:46pm — betty2020I would have those doubts too. My XN actually treated it as if he had a chore to complete. It was disgusting. I remember feeling like i was going to vomit after the act. One time he actually got mad and told me to hurry up... WTF? How degrading. I faked it quickly, ran to the bathroom and showered to remove his filth off me. He had to much other supply working and his male enhancement pills weren't keeping up with him i guess. Hes 41. The daytime whores were keeping him to busy to be bothered with me. Oh well. Now he can have all the hookers he wants and the STDs to go with it!
Sex
June 8, 2010 - 9:08pm — Lisa E. ScottMy EXNH told me he was so glad we were getting a divorce because he never saw the point of having sex with the same person more than once. "What's the point?" he laughed. "Been there done that," he said.
Lisa
June 8, 2010 - 10:40pm — Barbara (not verified)you've told me that and it's creepy
wonder if the new wife puts on a different wig every night
~~~~~~~~~
Effective Coaching Specifically for Victims of Pathologicals
Feelings buried alive never die. - Alice Miller
Barbara
June 8, 2010 - 10:49pm — Lisa E. ScottOMG! Too funny, B. Yeah, she must wear a wig! I remember one time I got my hair cut into a short-wedge and I've never seen him so excited to get me in the bedroom. He even said, "You're like a different person with this new haircut!" That should have been a big sign.
Lisa
June 8, 2010 - 10:52pm — Barbara (not verified)ROFLMAO what a freak he was... ick!!!
Psycho-Boy was like that - had to have a new woman at LEAST once a month. His wife was sooooo "disappointing, boring, practical and cold" that he HAD to take Vitamin V (VIAGRA).
In this day and age if you need some new 'strange' every few weeks you're playing Russian Roulette... it's gross.
Send her a couple wigs for their anniversary! LOL
~~~~~~~~~
Effective Coaching Specifically for Victims of Pathologicals
Feelings buried alive never die. - Alice Miller
Madonna-Whore
June 8, 2010 - 1:35pm — rainbow1I find this so interesting and it applies to my ex in so many ways. First of all early on in our relationship I noticed a pattern with him. He only dated blondes and only had one night stands with brunettes. I also noticed that before my first D&D he wanted me all the time. He wanted me where ever and whenever. He did not care where we were or who was watching. Once we got back together he never wanted me. I didnt know what I did wrong but I would literally be begging him!
It's complicated and I think
March 7, 2010 - 4:52pm — itreallyisabouthimIt's complicated and I think it manifests in different ways at different times.
Mine was more of a cerebral narc so his sexual warp wasn't as obvious as somatic narcs, I suppose.
Like yours, mine had an ex wife who stopped having sex with him, but I don't think she looked elsewhere. I, too, feel like I understand why she did not want to perform an intimate act with a man who disrespected her as a person during the day.
In our relationship he viewed sex as a chore and made me feel bad for having sex when pregnant (Madonnas don't have sex) and he also would only have sex when I initiated it which is something I'm not used to. He used to say "I love to be seduced" and I'd think "why is it all about what you love?" Sex was truly awful. He thought he was so sensual and artistic, getting out the high heeled shoes and silky fabrics, but it was so boring. It was all his preferences, all for his benefit. I really hated it and usually wished he would just do the deed like a man.
Mine also had a girlfriend after his wife (she was supposed to be no strings attached sex but she moved herself and her daughter into his house-hah!...but that poor kid) who cheated on him several times. She herself may have had some, er, issues. Ironically, I never heard him divulge any sexual difficulties with her directly. I think he was different with her than with me or his wife. Who knows why they consider one the Madonna and another a whore. I wouldn't take it personally if you were viewed as the latter. It's probably quite arbitrary. Just some odd way they compartmentalize for THEIR convenience.
And yes, he loved it when I became irate. Said it turned him on.
My ex Psychopath
March 5, 2010 - 7:47pm — rachewas married 4-5 times and claimed they all didn't want sex,but,GET THIS-he said they all cheated on him with other men.....
Oh forgot to mention
March 5, 2010 - 9:02am — TryintohealTowards the end, mine went from not being able to get enough to becoming impotent and requiring viagra injections to maintain an erection, maybe this was a psychological way of withholding sex, not really sure. It hurt me as the devaluation became worse because sex wasn't as important anymore, the sex toy (me) was not required as often. It hurt I felt he wasn't attracted to me and maybe thats why he went off and found a better supply.
tryintoheal
March 5, 2010 - 9:41am — Barbara (not verified)I felt he wasn't attracted to me and maybe thats why he went off and found a better supply
HELL NO!! He had typical Narc Madonna/Whore complex. They love new supply and treat them like whores. It has ZERO to do with attraction. Old supply starts to require intimacy and love and connection - all things that are INCAPABLE OF GIVING TO ANYONE.
Give this a listen:
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/allabouthim/2009/07/23/the-narcissists-mado...
and read:
http://www.lisaescott.com/forum/2009/03/29/when-they-make-you-think-you-...
This is NOT about anything you are or you did. YOU DID NOTHING WRONG. This is a non-human, soul sucking predator we're talking about.
Be sure you get into trauma counseling ASAP!
~~~~~~~~~
The world is a dangerous place, not only because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing. - Albert Einstein
Visit My Info. Website for Abuse Victims
Barbara...by my own choice I was "old supply"
March 5, 2010 - 8:13pm — MonicaI also started to require intimacy and connection and he still would not leave me alone. WTF?? Why didn't he move onto the next victim - to fresh supply/whore - when I made it clear that I was NOT his whore and wanted and deserved more? He just would not leave me be. (We had business connections so he used those to get to me..but I am shutting that down now, even if it means losing my job). Why won't he just go hire a whore or get a new victim??
My old PSYCHO
March 5, 2010 - 8:46pm — racheHas 4-5 ex wives/and is in a scam-i personally believe with wife #3 to con-women,and,called me her name on our wedding day and seduced my now ex friend/s in to phone sex and he STILL won't leave me alone.........its ALL to harm/hurt /use us-NOTHING MORE.
Monica
March 5, 2010 - 8:33pm — Barbara (not verified)he's hoping to WEAR YOU DOWN... another method of manipulation
NO CONTACT!
~~~~~~~~~
The world is a dangerous place, not only because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing. - Albert Einstein
Visit My Info. Website for Abuse Victims
Trintoheal
March 5, 2010 - 8:09pm — TryintohealHi Barbara,
I live in a remote area of QLD in Australia and I work 50 hours per week, I have attempted to get counseling over 5 times with different counselors and there are very few within 2-3 hours drive of my home who only work during the day. I cannot attend these times due to my job, I would be gone for 4 hours due to travel time. I live in an agricultural environment and work in the country as well. Do you know of any counselors that can offer online help to suit the Australian time Zone? I know this website is from America. I am having trouble getting the help I need. Thanks for your links about him not being able to give love and intimacy, It's nice to know that I was good enough, it was all about him. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Sparky
March 5, 2010 - 8:04am — TryintohealHi Sparky, My N told me the same thing, that his previous long term partner stopped having sex with him too, she eventually left him for another man and never returned. I don't think it is the N that stops wanting sex, its when the partner can't quite put her finger on it but realises something is amiss by the genuine lack of intimacy involved during the act. I thought it was all her fault, she wasn't sexual, didn't really love him but she had an IVF child with him and stayed with him for 7 years, she must have loved him. He also told me that he sat up every night watching porn whilst she went to bed, I realise now she must have been hurting knowing this and couldn't bring herself to make love to him anymore. The same thing happened in my relationship, I was very sexual, did things with him I haven't done with any other partner, so I was a good source but he still cheated, went to prostitutes and still had to have variety. So whether you're sexual for the long term or not, they are always up to no good. No one person can satisfy them. I think mine saw me as a whore as I may have performed like one, but he still needed other whores. When I yelled at mine and raged back, he just raged louder until I begged for some sanity, I found he came on strong and pursued me only when I calmly detached at times with a determined seriousness to my actions. Then he just played me again with his fake guy side and I trusted and thought he finally understood that if he didn't change I'd be gone. Before I knew it, he was back to his old ways, one call a day just to say hi, don't burden me and let me do what I like. He usually followed with a devaluation or humiliation shortly after. Couldn't win and he had his sex fix again. I hope I've made some sense to you.
narcs and sex
March 5, 2010 - 7:37am — narcnarcwhosthere (not verified)mine withheld sex.....beginning on our wedding night....but for him i'm sure it was a control issue....he withheld sex for years.....he did the same thing with his first wife...his first wife and i both believe that it was a control thing..to show us how unimportant we were...just another way to belittle us and 'erase us'....on a lighter note....after years of drug and alcohol abuse..now that he might need to get it up to snare a new victim...i seriously doubt he can....
My blog
Complexes of a Sexual Nature
March 7, 2010 - 11:02am — agnesmurphy17In my opinion, I think human sexuality is one of the profound & primitive components of human identity. Ns are also emotionally arrested at an early, formative stage of emotional development, somewhere aound the age of three. Some of their emotional behaviors are termed "primitive" because the force of the rage or the reactions defies the healthy reactions of a child who has been initiated into the ritual & rules concerning the control of impulses in relation to others.
Since sexuality is one of the defining features & impulse of a person, so this will be a defining feature of a personality disordered person. Their sexuality will be somewhat abnormal because this act is intrinsically linked to the emotional life (something a N lacks & is somehow arrested & perverse).
Personally, I think N's use sex for two things. First, to satisfy their biological itch. Second, to destroy & consume the women who is their "self-object" in object relations theory. How the N does this is as inventive as the N seeking to destroy his victim. Endlessly inventive as the N & following no set of defined rules.
Oh, there are some patterns. Madonna-Whore is one of the unmistakable patterns. But, if your N does not fit squarely into this game, doesn't mean he's not an N. If all human beings could be pegged exactly, then we would not have inter-personal conflicts which we suffer. There are only theories out there which serve as constructs to help us understand behavior which, when viewed in isolation, makes no sense.
endless variations
March 7, 2010 - 4:02pm — Barbara (not verified)Ns use sex for mainly two things
1. because they enjoy it - the pervy-er the better
2. to mind control and bond their victims to them by using the victim's own oxytocin/ adrenaline response in sex to superglue them to the predator. (No the predator is so messed up they do NOT have the same hormonal response)
Madonna Whore has everything to do with the sickness of the Narc and NOT with the victims.
~~~~~~~~~
The world is a dangerous place, not only because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing. - Albert Einstein
Visit My Info. Website for Abuse Victims
Mine def. withheld sex. And
March 6, 2010 - 6:24pm — annamarieMine def. withheld sex. And in one conversation he told me he used to with hold sex from his ex wife. Its a punishment or something. Idk, but thats when I really lost it because now you look at other women, but dont find me attractive. wtf just leave I thought. I kicked him out then for the third time at that point. Once the abuse starts I flip and cut him off because I cant take the abuse and then I feel horrible wondering what happened. when now im realizing its him making me crazy to make himself feel better because hes crap by himself... the games he played i wanted to kill him.
They never change. He will build you up and then suck you dry!!!!!!
listen to this - further clarification
March 5, 2010 - 1:18am — Barbara (not verified)http://www.blogtalkradio.com/allabouthim/2009/07/23/the-narcissists-mado...
~~~~~~~~~
The world is a dangerous place, not only because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing. - Albert Einstein
Visit My Info. Website for Abuse Victims
Very helpful as I had same questions re madonna/whore
March 5, 2010 - 4:32am — wallaby (not verified)I listened to this - and your comments clarifying that one cold be both Madonna and Whore jut not at same time - made so much sense and cleared up lingering questions I have had on this topic.
witholding
March 5, 2010 - 9:58am — peacewarriorSex was yet one more thing used to project onto me in those "YOU, you, you...." statements that sex was about "control" and "only giving it to get something". Also projecting onto me "you don't care, you have no interest, you don't want anything to do with me, you want to control me, all woen use it to control".This was after two decades of him telling me he "have no interest, its not imporatnt to me, I don't care about sex" and him maintaing his disinterest ignoring me having discussions with him as to why he was not physical. He passed himself off as overly moral as if he were a priest who'd chosesen a celibet life. He repeatedly told me he did not think about sex. Not once did he verbally say "let's have sex, I want sex or make love/do it to you...NOTHING. what did I do? I expressed my needs, desires, beliefs a physical relationship was important, I spoke of my physical needs. He'd react as if I were a freak for having any sexual desires. Oops, that because he was not human and did not act human. Long term closee friends I confided in wondered if he was a closet homosexual.
Those letters I wrote, pouring my heart out to him how sad and awful it is to live with a man who rejects a physical relationship? he saved them and it meant nothing to him. He would project more insisting it is me, blaming flaws of me insinuating "if" I were a Miss America or Universe there would be no problem. The man had sexuality issues off the charts. His mommy was ordering him on our wedding night to control we go to her house trying to control she keep an eye and ear on us and it was so sick. He acted as if there was nothing wrong with that.
How does a person go through life not ever telling a spouse he masterbates daily or worse lie his whole adult life asterbating starting in the am. I was sick mentally, so violated as a person, sickened he witheld that truth about his self from me lying to It was a shock Mr. holier than though, Mr. Monk/Priest asexual was in the house self serving.
I have thought: sex or thier penis is one more thing they can't share, it's all for them and nothing for you then project it is you who wants "nothing" to do with them.Then the insane passive aggression, ambient abuse as if it is you all along guilty of their behaviors. This was yet one more humiliating degradation to lie or project their sexual perversions onto us and people get duped of the smears.
I like lingerie, pretty, feminine. He would not buy me a nightgown when I asked for that as a gift. The harshest humiliation was his escalated abuse to control and convince me I was him, an extension and the horrific humiliation from counselors he fed lies to.
For me it was a last resort and to not seek having an affair to mastserbate myself when I had human needs and since I did not chose a convent..I'd fantasize a man said he desired me and wanted something to do with me.
It sems we are extensions of them and they can't seperate self from us hence the "YOU YOU YOU statements that are all about them. I was not heard, nor seen for only one person exists. He angrily and defensisvely blurted ot he "felt good..in strip clubs (all nude ones) he felt POWERFUL in strip clubs then would declare table dances "wqeren't for him..they were all for so and so" becoming enraged at reality..he got off... He probably conned himself it was someone else who had to go there..talking them into it when it was him all along. He was crazier then hell delusional or psychopath
in the closet
March 5, 2010 - 10:38am — narcnarcwhosthere (not verified)funny you should mention that.....because we'd been married about a month when the psychonarc got a message on our answering machine from a gay guy....asking him out to dinner and to a show!!...there were many instances over the years of him flirting with men....and he was seen in gay bars and gay porn houses....i forced the sex issue for sport mostly and had him go to a doctor....he was given about 500 dollars worth of testosterone gel....which he buried in the trash....i think they are all pretty much asexual...i believe the psychonarc is simply an 'equal opportunity predator'...sex to him is a tool and a weapon and nothing more.....and he'll use it against anyone....it makes no difference to him.....a victim is a victim........
My blog
peacewarrior
March 5, 2010 - 10:19am — Barbara (not verified)sounds a LOT like my exNH - except I had a private detective on him for a long time and there were no strip clubs, hookers, neither gender... nothing... like there was a VOID where his sex drive should have been. I even told my lawyer... 'hell if he brought home a goat I would be relieved." But nothing, nada.
And he looked at my normal desires as sinful & freakish. It was sick beyond belief. I didn't speak out for a long time because no one believed me. I even joined an online group for Sexless Marriages until I realized the problem was even bigger than that.
Oh yeah... it was, and still is ALLLLLL my fault.
~~~~~~~~~
The world is a dangerous place, not only because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing. - Albert Einstein
Visit My Info. Website for Abuse Victims