Lisa E. Scott

The Pack Mentality

The Pack Mentality
Posted Mon, 02/08/2010 - 07:54

by Tertia Loebenberg

What is it about anonymity that brings out the worst in people? I don’t get it.

I know that I am perhaps too honest sometimes, too public, too open and so I am probably not the best person to understand this, but I really do not get why people think they can be rude / hateful / spiteful / nasty / mean / just plain ugly if they think they can get away with it. What I want to know is, don’t they feel just a little bit bad? Do they have a conscience? When they go to sleep at night, do they feel at least a smattering of guilt for what they have done to others? How does being anonymous change who you really are? If you believe so strongly in your opinion / belief, then say it openly. Stand up and have the strength of your convictions. Be proud of who you are and what you have to say. The fact that you are hiding behind anonymity makes me think that either you are a coward, or deep down, you doubt what you have to say.

There is an online support forum that I sometimes read. I don’t participate too often for obvious reasons, but I read, just in case there is someone I can reach out to and help / offer encouragement etc. This forum is set up in a way that allows people to post anonymously, with pretty much a guarantee that their identity will not be known. And people use this in the most spiteful of ways. They post their regular posts under their ‘known name or pseudonym and when they get pissed at someone or something, they post anonymously. They attack other people, say horrible things, be really mean… all because they can get away with it.

I honesty don’t get it. I find it extremely cowardly and deceitful. It smacks of bullying. Of meanness. And it brings out the worst kind of pack mentality among others. It is so ugly. I would hate to ever be that ugly.

Of course there are many occasions when being anonymous is absolutely acceptable and even preferable. There are times when knowing one’s real identity could be dangerous / embarrassing etc. Although I am very open and public, I do understand that many others choose not to be so open. That’s fine. My issue is with the people who spew hatred and ugliness towards others only because they can get away with it. My feeling is that if you feel that strongly about something, stand up and say it openly. Be proud of what you believe in.

The hate comments, the slander and hate sites, the vicious attacks, belittling other people …… is that how you think it should be done?

I wonder…. do these people have a conscience? Do you think they feel even slightly guilty about the distress they cause others? I can’t believe that they don’t. I know I am naïve, but I just find it impossible to believe that anyone could be so hateful to others and not feel at least a bit bad.

But then, if they don’t feel bad, let me ask this question: if it was done to them, would they feel hurt or upset? And if they still feel their behaviour is justifiable, let me ask another question: if someone had to do what you did to your daughter or son, how would you feel about it then?

I was disappointed to see how on the forum I mentioned, a group of regular posters hid behind anonymity to attack a fellow regular poster (admin). How the pack mentality came out when they realized they could get away with it. That’s not on. Really not on. This ugly veiled cloak of anonymity has facilitated a free-for-all vicious attack from people who don’t have the guts to stand and openly say what they really think. What a pity. And to think that it is supposed to be a support forum.

Are you proud of yourself for making that woman feel shit about herself? Are you? Was it necessary to attack her? Even if you believe she is an asshole / wrong / whatever, do you really think you did the right thing? I don’t know. I don’t think being anonymous excuses you from basic human decency. I think you should be ashamed of yourself actually. I think you acted like a bunch of bullies.

I see it all the time. Find a victim, someone who either rubs you up the wrong way, or does something that doesn’t fit into your definition of acceptable. Maybe even someone who you are a little jealous of, although you would never admit it, and publicly rip her to shreds while hiding behind your anonymity. Then sit back and watch while your fellow mean spirited cowards join in the feeding frenzy. Like a pack of hyenas picking at the bones of the befallen pray, cackling your evil laugh and congratulating yourself at yet another conquest. A hollow victory meant to inflate sense of self worth. Sad.

I find it very hard to understand. But mostly, I find it really sad that people like that exist out there.

Read more: http://www.tertia.org/
(Under Creative Commons License: Attribution)

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reminder

Tue, 02/09/2010 - 16:50 — narcnarcwhosthere

Getting Out - that is mean. Period.

I don't know if some of you saw my last post so I am going to repeat a lot of what I said:

Ellen spent most of the weekend running around this trying to erase all her old posts... what is she trying to hide? what sort of skewed picture did she leave us with? That Barbara's an abusive bully? Were she and all her supporters talking on their board about how to 'handle' this to paint Barbara & Lisa in a bad light? I saw this exact thing done on another support board I was on. Ellen did get rid of the last month or so of her posts... which I read. I can attest that it was the same song, repeatedly. I can clearly see where Barbara became frustrated and concerned. Here's just some excerpts I found(this went on for the entire time Ellen was here):

Wed, 09/30/2009 - 02:57 — Ellen

How come that even though my ex has treated me badly by betraying me that i sometimes think he did it for my sake. He knew he wasn't good for me and that he could see i was being affected by him and losing myself so he thought it would be better for me to leave. Maybe this comes from a text he sent me a year or so ago after he had left for a couple of days it said 'you are a the most wonderful woman i know, i am sorry i drove you to it'

I think i must have a had an angry outburst and he left for a couple of days.

Oh my head spins, just when i think i get it i find something else to say its my fault.

BARBARA'S RESPONSE:
Wed, 09/30/2009 - 05:03 — Barbara

are you in counseling? This is very twisted thinking and you are DEAD WRONG.

http://narc-attack.blogspot.com/2007/07/hurting-you-isnt-something-narci...

http://abusesanctuary.blogspot.com/2006/10/ten-forms-of-twisted-thinking...

http://www.lisaescott.com/2009/08/21/lying-you-makes-narcissists-feel-sm...

http://www.lisaescott.com/2009/09/30/he-said-communicating-narcissists-n...

for your sake? Are you KIDDING??? Do you hate yourself that much or has he got you so mind controlled and programmed you will beat yourself up even without him around? I suspect the latter.

That is a very abusive case of blame shifting, excusing his ABUSE and making everything your fault.

http://www.cosmicwalk.co.za/games-blaming.html

http://www.cosmicwalk.co.za/games-phrases.html

http://www.cosmicwalk.co.za/games-doubt.html

http://www.cosmicwalk.co.za/games-dumping.html

NO ONE - I repeat NO ONE deserves the abuse these predators do. It is NEVER FOR YOUR OWN GOOD. NEVER!!

Ellen - you need immediate help if you really think that.

ELLEN AGAIN:
Wed, 09/30/2009 - 06:01 — Ellen

Thanks Barbara,

I do realise this is not healthy thinking. I said it cos i thought it would be better said aloud than festering in me. It is something i think at times and then i have to swipe it. I wanted to recognise that i do think this sometimes. I do have a counsellor.

I just can't fathom that my ex didn't have my best interests at heart cos he always said he did and behaved like he was thinking of me also. It is hard to realise that it may have been for his benefit in everything that he did. He has obviously been very clever and i have been manipulated and setup for him to leave.

He was seeing a woman since my daughter was 4 months old and i've just clicked at how he was behaving. He set things up to look like he was doing his best before he went. I just can't believe he can be so cruel to me.

Wed, 09/30/2009 - 06:27 — Ellen

(excerpts)

...how did i not see this.

I really believed everything he said. I thought he was a responsible, caring human being who only wanted my happiness. Why wouldn't i see that. If i thought otherwise i wouldn't have stayed. It's only the way that he left that now makes me see what he is truly like.......this is not something that my body or mind really wants to do though cos it hurts.

my son told me he had done this as i couldn't remember well didnt even notice.

If i have any more realisations lately im going to burst.

I didn't know he was such a heartless person.
~~~~~

Wed, 10/07/2009 - 07:13 — Ellen

I'd known my ex 27 years. I remember thinking ' i can have a baby with you cos you will never hurt me'

I just don't know what happened. I must've let my guard down and not assessed him as i might have done someone else. I thought well he must love me after knowing me that amount of time and any problems he had were due to his previous marriage and we could work through it. I could never totally commit though, maybe i knew it was an alien really.
~~~~~

Wed, 10/07/2009 - 06:38 — Ellen

Thanks for this.
I am always doubting me ex's issues cos he wasn't as abusive as some stuff i've read on here.

I'm just confused most of my days right now
~~~~~

Thu, 10/08/2009 - 05:18 — Ellen

...

I feel like you 4joys, i find things that i have done and feel guilt for it or blame my critisising of him.
~~~~

Thu, 10/08/2009 - 17:07 — Ellen

Hi,
My son didn't like my ex after the first 3 months when he did his first jump from the car trick.

After this he did what your sons did and stayed out of the way.

I have been in a blur so nothing was clear to me.

Denial is so difficult for me to get past.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Wed, 10/14/2009 - 04:02 — Ellen

Exactly, how hard is it to get your head round it. I have been struggling for 7 months since we split after being together only two years and for knowing him 29 years now.

I can't even explain how i understant it now. I have been doing lots of reading and questioning and fighting this info cos it was so surreal and unbelievable to me.

I have had a rude awakening in life and now my body and feelings understand it............that is different than your brain telling you something.
~~~~~

Mon, 11/02/2009 - 10:13 — Ellen

...
Thats exactly where i'm at.......i'm angry, scared and never want to see him again. Always in disbelief that he has done this.

~~~~~
Thu, 11/19/2009 - 06:17 — Ellen

...
God i find the excuses to let him off don't i. It's really weird to read back some of the thoughts i've had.

~~~~~
Mon, 12/28/2009 - 09:33 — Ellen

Hi Jessika,

IKWYM i too have joint pain and used to be giggly and happy too. It is still there somewhere but i don't feel the same anymore. I was thinking it was an age thing. Maybe i will never be right again.

I also have a lack of energy....could that be winter. maybe it is a feeling of hopelessness. How can this be. I can't imagine ever getting through any of this had i not found this site.

~~~~~
These are just a very few of what I found looking around. Ellen's erased some of the more recent ones but I read them before she did and it was the same song... over & over. I can really see how Barbara became more and more concerned about her.

Ellen erased one post where she clearly said she 'refused to be diagnosed with PTSD' (??) Seems she convinced herself that if she did she'd 'be on medication for the rest of her life'. I also saw no where that Barbara demanded that she get on medication, either. I saw a lot of Ellen blowing Barbara off and continuing to repeat things, hoping someone would tell her what she wanted to hear - rather than the truth.

We're all forgetting something. This is LISA's BOARD. It costs her $1000s of dollars every month to maintain a board of this quality... it's not a free board!!!

Lisa hired Barbara. Barbara, I believe, has to discuss all her actions with LISA. The only one she's accountable to is LISA. We have NO RIGHT to tell Barbara or Lisa how to behave here. None. I asked Barbara about all this recently and Barbara said everything is being handled by Lisa now. So I guess if we have concerns and questions - they need to be addressed to the person whose name is on this board. Lisa!

No one is holding anyone here. There are 100s of abuse support boards on the net. 100s. If you don't like it here - go somewhere else.

Here's one:
http://forums.our-place-online.net/index.php

Here's one of Sam V.'s many forums:
http://thepsychopath.freeforums.org/index.php

If that's where you'd rather be... go there. Rather than beating up people who are trying to help us and spending money out of their own pockets to do so... go somewhere else. It's that simple.

Pack Mentality

Tue, 02/09/2010 - 10:18 — GettingOut

I’m not surprised to be reading this here. There was a small group of women, myself included, who spoke out over the last few days against an administrator bullying one member of this board. The member was publicly humiliated and then put on a read-only basis leaving her unable to defend herself.

Of course, once members started speaking out, not only for the member, but also for what the administrator’s behavior represented, they were met with post deletion and were instructed to only speak “privately” about the matter. In my opinion, publicly humiliating someone and then privately working it out is, well, abusive.

I’d like to refer for a minute to this “Pack Mentality” post. This being posted on a board relative to narcissism is rather confusing. As in: what does this have to do with narcissism? In my opinion, absolutely nothing. I do, however, get the gist of what this is meant to signify. In my opinion, it is posted as a means to let anyone on this board understand that speaking up when they feel something is wrong, will not be tolerated. Of course, many of us suffering from that “pack mentality” voiced our opinions regarding something we felt was wrong on this board. Those opinions were discarded.

The person who wrote this, along with the one who posted it are, in my opinion, pretty darn angry. Somebody, or a whole lot of somebody’s somewhere has obviously said something the writer/poster didn’t like. And the response is an immature diatribe of nonsense just about along the lines of a narcissistic rage.

After living with an N for 30 years, it is quite amazing that I, or anyone else who has been subjected to their nastiness, has the guts to actually voice an opinion. To have those opinions deleted is the same as having an N scream at you to shut up when a narcissistic injury has happened. The N I was with practiced “tough love” and then he justified it via whatever means he could. I’ve seen that here. Tough love has no place on a forum for those recovering from abuse. It is frightening and unnecessary.

This post may very well get deleted like so many of my others have. Quite frankly, I don’t care as I have no intentions of returning here.

I do hope the ones that remain on this site have the knowledge to never, ever, speak up if something said or done here bothers you. You will be banned or your posts will be deleted if you do so. However, if you do exactly as you are told without question, you will survive. Reminds me of what living with an abusive narcissist feels like.

I’m proud to be a member of a small group of people who spoke up. Who found their voice. In my world, being a member of this particular “pack” is where I’d much rather be than on this site getting poor “tough love” advice from unqualified administrators.

Pack mentality

Tue, 02/09/2010 - 10:39 — rache

I can relate this post to narcissism,as,my ex N does have a PACK of people who side with him,whom, he goes to- to get affirmation and a pat on the back from.One friend he has had for 20 years.These are people who are superficial to him and cater to him.He doesnt spend a lot of time with them just enough for them to continue to believe he is a good ol country boy on disability who just has a temper yada yada but thats just the way cajuns are-explaining away his narcissism.my shrink says these narcs can have a lot of friends-superficial but none that get close,as,they would find them out.

More on Pathologicals & Mobs

Sun, 02/14/2010 - 00:12 — Barbara

Elements of Mobbing Syndrome
(example: when a Narc or Socio/Psychopath or Bully gets their proxies to gang up on you...)

In my book, The Envy of Excellence, the 16 indicators are boiled down to ten. Perhaps the most important indicator is shown here as No. 12, the enlargement of some real or imagined misdeed or fault in order to smear the target's whole identity, so that he or she is seen as personally abhorrent — a totally alien other, a dangerous, repugnant entity that turns the stomachs of good and decent people.

1. By standard criteria of job performance, the target is at least average, probably above average.

2. Rumours and gossip circulate about the target’s misdeeds: “Did you hear what he/she did last week?”

3. The target is excluded.

4. Collective focus on a critical incident that “shows what kind of person they really are.”

5. Shared conviction that the target needs some kind of formal punishment, “to be taught a lesson.”

6. Unusual timing of the decision to punish.

7. Emotion-laden, defamatory rhetoric about the target in oral and written communications.

8. Formal expressions of collective negative sentiment toward the target, e. g. a vote of censure, signatures on a petition, meeting to discuss what to do about the target.

9. High value on secrecy, confidentiality, and collegial solidarity among the mobbers.

10. Loss of diversity of argument, so that it becomes dangerous to “speak up for”or defend the target.

11. The adding up of the target’s real or imagined venial sins to make a mortal sin that cries for action.

12. The target is seen as personally abhorrent, with no redeeming qualities; stigmatizing, exclusionary labels are applied.

13. Disregard of established procedures, as mobbers take matters into their own hands.

14. Resistance to independent, outside & impartial review of sanctions imposed on the target.

15. Outraged response to any appeals for outside help the target may make.

16. Mobbers’ fear of violence (verbal, emotional, mental or physical) from target, target’s fear of violence from mobbers, or both.

~~~~~~~~~
The truth will set you free... but first it will piss you off - Gloria Steinem

Visit My Abuse Website

Maybe Sometimes We Re-stimulate Each Other

Tue, 02/09/2010 - 11:24 — The Girlfriend ...

I think it is entirely possible that whatever unfortunate interchange took place on this website a couple of days ago, ALL of it...from beginning to end...could have been caused by the fact that trauma survivors often can re-stimulate each other (which can make us very sensitive)...Just our very stories and relating with each other...recounting the memories we share and even things we did ourselves that we don't like to see in our selves...we may be restimulated to percieve in another with similar difficuties.

I think we are ALL here because we have all suffered alot and been damaged by a relationship with a pathological...but I don't think for a minute that anyone here on this website is deliberately bullying or intends to hurt others at all.

I hope we can put this hurtful exchange in the past. It is hurtful and confusing for everyone to read all this miscommunication. I am concerned for the new people who are hurting...who happen to find their way here for support...to read such exchanges and misinterpret everything...and feel they have no where else to go...

I hope we all get back into supporting and sharing with one another and learning and healing from our painful experiences with the real Narc/Sociopaths/Psychopaths and stop making assumptions and defending/attacking each other. I am grateful for what Barbara does for all of us, and so happy she is here, I actually look forward to see all the info, links & the many other things she posts for us. She has shared a wealth of information, spent time finding relevent articles to help us, and sometimes finding specific articles for some of the members here. I am sure reading all our stories is restimulating to her and reawakens the memories she has of her own terrible experiences at times. Nevertheless...she carries on trying to help all of us. I also like Ellen's posts, as reading what she has gone through has opened my own eyes to certain behaviors too.

I hope we can all get back soon to sharing with and supporting each other here instead.

xo

I agree

Tue, 02/09/2010 - 17:38 — cynthia

I don't think for a minute that anyone here on this website is deliberately bullying or intends to hurt others at all. I would also like to add to that I am NOT afraid to post in fear of getting banned, and if I was banned I would not consider it abuse. How can anyone think Barbara is abusive? You may not like at times how she responds, she can be firm but she is not an abuser and would never have intentions of causing emotional abuse further to anyone on this site. We all spin on that hamster wheel in our recovery at times, maybe she sees that and says STOP IT. God knows I have been obsessive with many issues that I cant get past so I know how Ellen feels. Sometimes even with all the support and advise I get on this board I get disgusted with myself cause I cant seem to help myself get past certain things. It takes tremendous strength to recover from the experience we had and Barbara knows that very well, but she would never never abuse anybody because we get stuck. I dont want anyone to leave the board, everyone is important to me. Why would a woman who dedicates her time to manage this site to only HELP others who have fallen victim to predators want to further harm us? NO WAY!

I've never thought that for one moment either

Tue, 02/09/2010 - 18:31 — rache

I think there is a lot of hyper-sensitivity going on,but,that's my opinion and opinions are like a holes everybody's got one,smiles

I agree

Tue, 02/09/2010 - 11:31 — rache

It sounds like you could be on to something there girlfriend!

PS

Tue, 02/09/2010 - 11:39 — rache

maybe you should start up that detective agency you talked about,and,perhaps consider counseling women starting up a group-i sense a real VERY real potential in you girl!GO FOR IT!